Possible Solution


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jselvy
June 19, 2007, 09:02 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Forum,

Here is a possible solution.

Felons have been proven, by government funded, peer-reviewed study, to be at the heart of the rising crime rates. According to these studies the recidivism rates are as high as 60%. They obviously cannot be trusted with the full rights and responsibilities of law abiding citizens. I consider it a little unfair that they be denied for life though.
Maybe it would be possible to gather them in an area apart from their victims. Allow them to work hard and at the end of a course of treatment be allowed to return to society as full members. If at first they fail they would continue to be allowed to try and work towards their eventual release. The fact that they are physically separated from the law abiding citizenry would prevent any further predations by them. These areas would have to be guarded of course but it would probably cost less than accumulated costs of recurring offenders.
What is your opinion? Could this work?

Jefferson

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TallPine
June 19, 2007, 09:40 AM
Don't they call those "prisons" ...???

silliman89
June 19, 2007, 09:44 AM
Maybe it would be possible to gather them in an area apart from their victims.

Don't they call those "prisons" ...???

Exactly.

I really don't know what you're getting at.

jselvy
June 19, 2007, 09:45 AM
No, prisons are just holding facilities. I meant a place where actual work must be accomplished. No sentencing, just work until the have fulfilled the obligations set down by law.

Jefferson

pcosmar
June 19, 2007, 09:47 AM
I don't understand your position.
Are people born felons? Where do they come from?
How do you account for first offense crimes?
If only felons are the problem I would think creating less felons would help.
If 60% commit crimes again, that means 40% do not.
If there were less laws there would be less crime.
If less crimes were classed as felonies there would be less felons, and less prison space needed. That would mean that the truly violent and dangerous could be contained longer.

scbair
June 19, 2007, 09:49 AM
They did this; called it "Australia." Worked well, till the inmates took over . . .

jselvy
June 19, 2007, 09:59 AM
Are people born felons? Where do they come from?
There have been well-respected studies that indicate that there may be, in fact, a genetic disposition to crime. It can also be said through similar studies that criminal behavior starts in childhood.

Jefferson

armoredman
June 19, 2007, 10:12 AM
jselvy, what you propose is one of three things - Utopia, prison, or Escape from New York. Utopia is impossible, no number of people, especially those who have shown a predisposition for law breaking, can live "in harmony". Escape from New York is a fun idea, until you lose the President inside. :) Sorry, the whiners wouldn't let it happen anyway.
What you are talking about is rehabilitation. My Dept uses a number of approaches, one called "Paralell Universe", where the inmate has some of the same responsabilities as on the outside, (Going to a job, get up on time, go to chow on time), to better increase thier ability to function on the outside. Numerous studies, programs, efforts have been launched, and massive amounts of data gathered, all to find the same conclusion - unless the individual is willing to change, his behavior will never change.
Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I do NOT buy that individuals are genetically predisposed towards criminal behavior. THAT is the same "society made me do it" cop out I hear every day. Individuals may be "bent" towards crime by a violent or loveless childhood, but our society holds the individual responsable for thier own actions.
In the meantime, I realize that 96% of all inmates will get out eventaully, and while I cheer on the success stories, I keep my CZ PO1 close for those who keep me in business.

pcosmar
June 19, 2007, 10:13 AM
jselvy said,
There have been well-respected studies that indicate that there may be, in fact, a genetic disposition to crime. It can also be said through similar studies that criminal behavior starts in childhood.
I have heard that too, but I don't buy it.
I had a good upbringing, both parents, no abuse. Out of 6 kids, I was the only one that got into trouble. One brother worked in LE.
I was told many times that I "didn't fit the profile" what ever that means.
I also knew people in prison for self defense. One shot his wifes rapist.
I knew a man that bought a car from a car dealer, it later turned out to have been stolen.(recieving stolen property) He had it 2 years, bought plates twice, and had a clear title.
I have a lot of real life stories, not a "study".

jselvy
June 19, 2007, 10:17 AM
But we already deny them most of their civil rights, why not just restrict their freedom of movement until they have proven themselves worthy of citizenship again?
I don't mean this in place of prisons but after they have served their time. A sort of societal rehabilitation program.

Jefferson

TX1911fan
June 19, 2007, 10:23 AM
Where would it be? What type of work would they do? How would you keep them from being "felons" to each other? I don't think it would work. I think we need fewer laws and longer sentences for the laws we keep.

NeoSpud
June 19, 2007, 10:26 AM
There is strong evidence for a predisposition (a diathesis, actually) for depression. Diathesis or not, unless the eliciting events (in depression's case, usually a stressful situation within which the person is unable to cope) occur along with the predisposition, depression won't occur.

Crime, on the other hand, is a socially-prohibited behavior. Perhaps people can have a predisposition towards anger, and perhaps they can be raised in an environment in which they are not taught proper coping strategies (poor upbringing), and THAT leads to their criminal lifestyle. But genetics causing crime? No way...

Depressed people also tend to commit suicide at a higher rate than non-depressed people. Does that mean that the genetic predisposition towards depression is actually a predisposition towards suicide? Nope.

I'm not aware of any transitive property of genetics/behavior ;)

jselvy
June 19, 2007, 10:38 AM
Where would it be? Anyplace with wide open spaces, like central Wyoming, West Texas, Central Nevada, Eastern Montana, Anywhere in North Dakota, Central Alaska for example
What type of work would they do? I don't know, but I'm sure that our elected representatives could think of something.
How would you keep them from being "felons" to each other? You couldn't but at least there would be no Innocent victims.
I mean we have already established that they cannot be allowed their rights as citizens, thus they are no longer part of "The People" so why not?


Jefferson

ConstitutionCowboy
June 19, 2007, 10:42 AM
It starts in the first five or six years of life. It's the time in human development when we should be developing a conscience - because after that, the chance for that is gone. The "hard wiring" is complete. The only incentive to behave properly after that is the fear of going to prison. With a conscience, you most likely wouldn't take what doesn't belong to you - including someone else's life except in defense - but without that conscience, other things can control your behavior such as revenge, desire, greed, lust, etc. If such a conscienceless individual(sociopath) thinks (s)he can "get away with it", they will. They rarely consider the consequences of their actions anyway. Thinking that far ahead is antithetical to their desire(need?) for instant gratification.

A whole new thought process needs to be introduced to these people, and I'd imagine some will "adopt" it and allow that "education" to control their unabateable desire(s). The want and feelings of need never go away, they can never "grow" a conscience, but can learn to behave. That's probably the 40% who don't end up back in jail. Some "learn" this before caving to the conscienceless behavior, so it can and does happen that fear of the consequences can thwart undesirable behavior.

Keeping the rest in custody is the best answer; be it prison, institutionalization, guardianship, or execution for the most heinous and those who will not be controlled. They can earn their keep. When proven they can behave properly, they can be returned to society.

I think the OP is on target.

Woody

dfaugh
June 19, 2007, 11:24 AM
Where would it be?

Ever see the movie "Escape From NY"?

pdowg881
June 19, 2007, 11:34 AM
Don't they go to halfway houses?

TallPine
June 19, 2007, 11:51 AM
why not just restrict their freedom of movement until they have proven themselves worthy of citizenship again
Well, if you are restricting their freedom of movement, then they are in some sense of the word "imprisoned"

If what you are suggesting is more attempts at "rehabilitation" then okay, but they are still "prisoners" of the govt. correction system. A lot of states have a "trustee" program where inmates work outside with no restriction on their freedom other than the honor system. In Montana, a couple guys just last week violated their honor and drove off in a prison owned pickup. It took a few days to catch them, and now they are going to be spending a long time in hard lockup.

Probation is supposed to work much the same way - "supervised release"

A better idea is just not to put people in jail for victimless crimes in the first place, and concentrate on keeping the really dangerous ones locked up.

Oh, and please don't send your felons to Montana ... :(

trueg50
June 19, 2007, 12:00 PM
pdowg881: Don't they go to halfway houses?

Half way houses are for mentally incompetint individuals who are "with it" enough to not need to be in a hospital but are not capable of living alone in the real world.

Well how about this, ship all sex offenders (except those convicted of statchitory rape) and serial killers to an island, any uninhabited one will do. the Navy can use the surrounding area for menuevers, as guards of sorts. Maybe drop in some food every once in a while, otherwise, let the lord of the flies part deux begin!

There was a movie with Ray Leota in it that was similar to this, but same general idea.

anygunanywhere
June 19, 2007, 01:24 PM
Texas prisons used to be self sufficient. Inmates had to work. They used to grow their own food including livestock for meat. Texas prisons were a model.

Then came a Judge named William Wayne Justice and a lawsuit.

Now the prisoners can not be forced to work. They have better health care than most working stiffs.

They have air conditiioning and cable TV. Dental. Unlimited access to legal aid.

Yes, there is abetter way, but the stinking bleeding heart liberals and their ACLU lawyers and judges and legislators have ruined it.

So, what is your point about working felons?

pcosmar
June 19, 2007, 01:27 PM
trueg50 said.
pdowg881: Don't they go to halfway houses?

Half way houses are for mentally incompetint individuals who are "with it" enough to not need to be in a hospital but are not capable of living alone in the real world.
Not true, Halfway houses are used to reintegrate into society.
On my way out I was in a work release program in Kansas City. It is a converted hotel on Oak st. We could leave for work, church, or other events but had to come back at set times. We were allowed some freedom but were supervised and had a strict set of rules.
From there I went to a halfway house in Columbia Mo,and was eventualy released on parole. I completed my parole, but was supervised the whole time with visits at my home and work and reporting monthly.
They don't just open the door and set you out.

El Tejon
June 19, 2007, 01:31 PM
Hey, this the hypothetical penal colony that we proposed years ago in my law enforcement days--"MOPEBERIA"!:D A place to send the mopes. Yeah, somewhere out there in the Western Waste is what we thought too, but we did not want to bring them back.:neener:

Anywho, states have tried this approach under many different guises. In order for your approach to work, you need to impose the sentence at birth.*

*The criminal justice system cannot trump the way these people are raised. They are broken and no amount of government can fix them.

jselvy
June 19, 2007, 01:32 PM
I will admit I was playing Devil's Advocate.
The Idea of "Work will make you free" has been tried before, in German it is Arbeit Macht Frei which was inscribed over the gates of Buchenwald.

Substitute Final for Possible and Jew for Felon to reveal the secret message.

Jefferson

pcosmar
June 19, 2007, 01:37 PM
I prefer to work for the little I have, than to live a life of ease in a cage.

Titan6
June 19, 2007, 02:02 PM
I think it is called DC.

They just keep stealing more money and spending it on things I would never think to buy on my own and sending it to other countries with even more criminals.

On the other hand we are kind of at the end of the road here so far as "free" land and where to put people who don't want to follow the rules of civil behavior. Many parts of the 13 Colonies once had penal colonies where Europe was dumping it's problem children.

I say your chances of getting these idiot drug laws repealed are better than funding any kind of federal penal colony. Repeal the drug laws and you remove a lot of incentive for crime and Darwin will take care of most of the drug addicts. But since there is an element that wants to make tobacco illegal the chance of getting the more deadly drugs leagalized is unlikely.

TallPine
June 19, 2007, 02:44 PM
I would suggest sending felons to the moon but they might rebel and start throwing rocks at us ;)

jselvy
June 19, 2007, 02:50 PM
Naw that would never happen you'd need some sort of super computer or somethin' :D

Jefferson

Roccobro
June 19, 2007, 03:11 PM
Where would it be? What type of work would they do? How would you keep them from being "felons" to each other? I don't think it would work. I think we need fewer laws and longer sentences for the laws we keep.

How about Iraq, Afghanistan, or? People had to die for our freedoms we *Law Abiding Citizens* enjoy and appreciate. Why not make these felons WORK at restoring thier's just like those before them. Would actually make them appreciate what they *earn* as opposed to what is handed to them through .gov (medical, dental, SSI, etc....)

Of course, make it optional as MOST of them would choose to like 75 comfy years in the pen than a 2 year stint in the armed forces. Our boys and girls over there sleep in the dirt and sweltering heat. The only place that comes close to that in the Corrections field is the tent city in Arizona by Sheriff Arpaio. (http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/joearpaio.html)

The only downside I keep coming back to is the poor DI's that would have to train these miscreants in whatever branch. They are felons because they couldn't follow rules or control themselves. But if we give the reins back to Uncle Sam to give these fools the beating they needed to make it work, then it would be even better for them to get "rehabilitated" in the process.

Justin

JCF
June 19, 2007, 05:26 PM
There have been well-respected studies that indicate that there may be, in fact, a genetic disposition to crime. It can also be said through similar studies that criminal behavior starts in childhood.

I'm not entirely sure of the accuracy of that statement Jeff. There have, historically, been well-respected academics who have postulated that there may indeed be a genetic predisposition to the display of deviance... but then again, there have been otherwise well-respected individuals who have indulged in any number of other... well... interesting directions of thought.

jselvy
June 19, 2007, 05:33 PM
There is nothing accurate in any of my statements in this thread. I started it to illustrate the closeness of how we are willing to treat our fellow citizens to how certain German citizens were treated in the first half of the twentieth century. People seem to missing my point.
Again substitute the word final for possible and jew for felon in the original post to reveal the hidden message.

Jefferson

Correia
June 19, 2007, 05:34 PM
Sorry, forgot my secret decoder ring.

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