[Sisco]

I have an old Llama 9mm, belonged to my Dad so that's why I keep it around. That and it isn't worth much except sentement.
Anyway, the gun has always been a jam-o-matic. I wrote it off as being a POS Llama.
It has come to my attention that it may not be chambered for 9mm Luger but 9mm Largo. Roll marks on the slide say 9m/m 38.
I've not been able to find much about the Largo, none of my reloading manuals have any data at all. Found some on the net and I see that Largo & 38 super are close to the same OAL case length.
This may explain the jamming if the 9mm Luger is that much shorter than the Largo the round may go so far into the chamber that the extractor can't pull it back out.
How can I tell for sure if what caliber this thing is and if it does turn out to be Largo can I safely shoot 38 super in it?

[Mike Irwin]

Can you shoot .38 Super in it?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

The .38 Super works at MUCH higher pressures than the .38 Largo.

The only way to tell if you have a gun chambered for the Largo is to have a gunsmith examine the chamber, and possibly do a chamber cast to get a measurement.

[Sisco]

Thanks Mike. With so little data on the Largo I wasn't able to find any pressure ratings.
If it does turn out to be Largo chambered is brass available at a reasonable price? What if one would use Super brass loaded to Largo specs?

[shootist2121]

Go to
http://www.9mmlargo.com/

You might see your dad's pistol and the have a section on reloading for the largo...The ammo can still be found at gun shows and if you can find a Shotgun News under the ammo section..

One another note though..Some of the surplus stuff is hot but still within pressure ranges..

Have fun..:cool:

[Sisco]

Checked out shootist2121's link, apparently the Llama "Extra" is chambered in 9mm Largo.

[Mike Irwin]

I want an Astra 400!

[shootist2121]

Mike Irwin..I hope you like recoil...LOL

I owned one briefly..I remember shooting several in college..I think the earth was still young then..Anyway this was just last year.. Being blowback operated the recoil is controlled only by the recoil spring and not be locking lugs like the browning design of the LLamas...

It was.. Well brisk..LOL..And yes i even tried 9mm luger in it..I thought what the heck..It shot a full magazine without a hiccup...Than the bad news..I had bought it on line and here in Missouri you have to apply for a permit to purchase with the local LEO..Well after the paper work was granted the serial number came up a few weeks later and ..Yep you guessed it..Stolen in Oklahoma...The LEO came by the house.. I gave him the gun and called the dealer that I purchased it from..Bless his heart and honesty he refunded me my full amount for the gun..And seemed totally surprised at the fact as he got the gun from another dealer, etc...

If you still like the design of the Astra 400 ..maybe try and find a good model 600 in 9mm luger.. Much cheaper to shoot but I bet the recoil will be the same..Just my two cents though..LOL

Be safe guys


:cool: :cool:

[David4516]

I've got a Star in 9mm Largo. It is very similar to a 1911 stlye colt. Anyway, I've got a Speer Reloading manual with some info on the Largo:

Pressure: 30,000 PSI

The case is 22.9 mm long, vs 19mm long for the 9mm Luger

There is a note that says pistols marked "9mm-38" are chambered for 9mm Largo

Here are some loads they show for it, these are their "maz" loads, so you will want to start a bit lower:

115 gr Bullets:

HS-6, 7.5gr, 1186 FPS
700-X, 4.7gr, 1110 FPS
Bullseye, 5.1gr, 1093 FPS
Win 231, 5.3 gr, 1082 FPS

124 gr Bullets:

AA#7, 8.3gr, 1085 FPS
HS-6, 6.9gr, 1065 FPS
Unique, 5.0gr, 1050 FPS
Win 231, 4.7, 1013 FPS

These are speers "max" loads, but the 9mm Largo round is capable of more. These loads are not impressive, they seem to be about the same as 9mm Luger. IF you have a good, strong 9mm Largo pistol, you can exced these loads. My Dad has a Star "super" and uses loads that are considerably "hotter" than the ones in the reloading mauals. The reason the loads in the manuals are so light is because many older 9mm Largo pistols are weaker, and it would be risky to use hotter loads in them. The newer, stronger actions can handle hotter loads. I think they should have a 9mm Largo "+p" section or something in these manuals to adress this...

[Mike Irwin]

Shootist,

I've fired both the 400 and the 600, and while the recoil is brisk, they're unique, and they're fun.

[Jim Watson]

Starline makes Largo brass.
You can probably load it with 9mm P dies; the case head and mouth dimensions are almost exactly the same, just 4 mm longer.
CCI made Largo Blazer at one time. There may still be some around.It was very popular as a IDPA light load for 9x23 and even Super.

[Sisco]

Starline Largo brass is $50 per 500. Don't need 500 cases, won't shoot it that much. Heck, the guns only worth $50!

[Pumpkinheaver]

Dillon precision had some 9mm Largo for sale in the blue press a while ago.

[Uncle Jaque]

While cleaning the cellar a bit earlier this week I came accross an old issue of "Handloader" magazine, with an interesting article about the 9X23 Winchester, comparing it to the 9MM Largo and .38 Super.

I wish I could find it again, but it seems to have vanished beneath yet another pile.

The ballistics they showed for the Largo didn't seem all that far off from the .38 Super to begin with, and the Author allowed as to how the bowling-pin shooting crowd used to routinely load it up to super specs in sound guns. Some of them apparently even pushed the envelope beyond that to where the 9X23Win was not a big deal to them when it came out.

They said that the casing for the 9X23 Win is essentially the same as the Largo dimentionally, but built more robustly, especially in the head area. That means less case capacity, thus higher pressures for a given load.
The implication is that you can indeed use X23 Winchester brass to load 9MM Largo - but watch your step!

In cartridges of the .38 Super class and above, it seems to be important that the whole case is supported right back to the extractor groove in stead of the rear underneath hanging out in the air over the feed ramp, as many automatic pistols do.

If you have been firing 9X19 in a Largo, you may have built up some lead or jacket deposits on the shoulder of the chamber which could cause trouble if not thoroughly cleaned out.

Although people frequently get away with this practice (a little like firing .38 Specials in a .357 Magnum), the auto pistol headspaces on the case mouth in stead of the rim, as a revolver does. This means all you've got holding the cartridge back against the bolt face is the extractor, and it takes a beating. Usually they break before too long under this abuse.

Some folks make up a little "ring" adapter out of a scrap shell casing about 4MM long and wedge it up into the chamber of a Largo to allow for proper seating of a 9X19 Luger round.
From what I've read it works all right if it is done right, and it can be pulled back out if one wants to shoot Largos.

9MM Largo is a cartridge I would like to play with some day, to be sure; I'm just waiting for the right gun to come along! ;)

Links of potential interest:

http://www.altavista.com/r?ck_sm=f3c737ad&rpos=5&rpge=2&ref=200020080&uid=a38238a1179dda5&r=http%3A%2F%2Ftalk.shooters.com%2Froom_47%2F1749.cfm

Shooters.com :
Ammo - Handgun; 9MM Largo

http://talk.shooters.com/room_47/1749.cfm

Ammo Test: http://www.sillc.com/ammotest.htm

9mm LARGO Load Data:
http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/largo/index.html

[Sisco]

Thank you Uncle Jaque, and welcome to The High Road.
A genuine Uncle of mine today suggested the 9x23 but I haven't had time to research it.

[Uncle Jaque]

My pleasure!

When you get the time, those links should get you started.

The old 9MM LARGO does not get much press these days, but personally, I find it rather intriguing.

[Gordon]

Ok I got bit with the 'Spanish steel' bug about 15 years ago and have managed to accumulate: A 400 Astra in the box with tools and papers, a Star modelo 'A" both in 9mm largo.They are a gas to shoot and the 400 Astra is more accurate than you think with it's rigid barrel. First thing to do on these pistols is to strip and inspect and clean and install Wolfe springs! I also have a couple Astra Cubs in .22&.25, a Star PD;the only small , light .45 that works (IMHO),, an Uncetta 'ruby' .32 accepted by the phrench in WW1, and I WANT a LLama in 9mm largo or a little one in .32. I don't have a destroyer carbine but WANT one of those too. These spanish guns are a hoot to shoot.:D