7.62x39 vs 30-30


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bg226
June 20, 2007, 02:01 PM
How do these two cartridges compare for deer hunting?

What about distance. Does one cover more distance than the other?


Thanks.

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Texas Colt
June 20, 2007, 02:22 PM
The 30-30 and 7.62x39 are very close ballistically and I have used both on white tails and hogs with great success.

Ultimately, the keys are shot placement and bullet selection. The Winchester 123 grain soft point ammo for the 7.62x39 has worked well in my SKS. Two years ago my son dropped a 165 pound hog with a single shot from the SKS.

Also, I would not use either caliber beyond 150 yards (with the exception of Hornady's new Leverevolution ammo for the 30-30).

R.W.Dale
June 20, 2007, 07:36 PM
In contemporary loadings the 7.62x39 will do everything 30-30 will do and then some due to greater retained energy downrange. Comparing Wolf's 154grn SP to Hornady's new leverrevoulution is much less uneven than you'd think. It's like comparing 308 to 30-06 with 150grn bullets. For all intensive purposes they're the same.

As you can see from the below links about the only real diffrence is 120 FPS and about $16
http://www.brassfetcher.com/7.62x39mm%20Wolf%20154gr%20Soft%20Point.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/160grHornady3030.html

But on ammo price alone I give the x39 the edge, cause cheaper ammo = more practice and that = you becoming a better marksman

bg226
June 20, 2007, 11:04 PM
So these two cartridges have pretty much the same trajectory?

I've heard all these things about the 30-30 being a close range thing.

R.W.Dale
June 20, 2007, 11:12 PM
So these two cartridges have pretty much the same trajectory?

NO not really

a 7.62x39 shoots WAAAAAAY flatter and hits harder at range than a 30-30, UNLESS you shoot that new fangled $20 a box Hornady ammo. In that case they have practically THE SAME trajectory and energy

aspade
June 21, 2007, 01:42 AM
Those stubby, flat based 123 grain bullets aren't remotely aerodynamic either. Federal and Winchester factory charts put their 123gr 7.62x39 softpoints within 2 inches of standard 150 grain .30-30 loads at 300 yards. The Hornady polymer tipped loads are significantly better.

If you load your own with more aerodynamic bullets, the 7.62x39 is far flatter and harder hitting at longer ranges than standard .30-30 and about even with the Hornady loads. Be aware that most imported rifles have .311 bores and the bullets you'd want to use like the 125 BT are sized .308. This can cause accuracy problems.

tube_ee
June 21, 2007, 02:22 AM
The .30-30 tends to prefer heavier bullets than the 7.62x39, or at least, the factory loadings say that's true.

Where the balance is for bullet weight vs velocity is an old argument that will never be settled, but nobody seriously claims that weight doesn't matter.

This seems maybe like a platform decision rather than a caliber one. If you prefer a levergun, get the .30 WCF. If you like a semi-auto, go 7.62x39. For me, the Winchester and Marlin leverguns carry and point so well that I'd probably take one over an SKS or an AK, if I had to choose.

Fortunately, this is America, and I can have both. Marlin levergun (in .357 Magnum, but I'd not turn away a .30-30) in house, SKS on the list to buy.

--Shannon

chris in va
June 21, 2007, 02:52 AM
I like to point out this site for anybody comparing the two rounds.

x39 Wolf Softpoint
http://www.brassfetcher.com/7.62x39mm%20Wolf%20154gr%20Soft%20Point.html

Don't Tread On Me
June 21, 2007, 03:12 AM
I think it has a lot less to do with their ballistics and a whole lot more to do with platform. .30-30 is usually a lever gun. x39 is usually coming out of an autoloader. There are other actions that chamber both of these though, but that's the typical. I'd look into which type of rifle I'd want to hunt with first, then go with the cartridges available in that. Either is going to do fine on deer in the short to medium range arena.


One area the .30-30 has a clear advantage is in the reloading scene. 7.62x39 reloading isn't the greatest. Less choices in .311 bullets and reloadable brass isn't as prevalent or inexpensive. You can also do lead bullets in .30-30. Most x39 autoloaders beat up the brass badly.

Nematocyst
June 21, 2007, 05:40 AM
Yep.

I think it has a lot less to do with their ballistics and a whole lot more to do with platform.
.30-30 is usually a lever gun. x39 is usually coming out of an autoloader. ...

One area the .30-30 has a clear advantage is in the reloading scene.

R.W.Dale
June 21, 2007, 07:19 AM
Federal and Winchester factory charts put their 123gr 7.62x39 softpoints within 2 inches of standard 150 grain .30-30 loads at 300 yards.

The problem with that is FACTORY 30-30 velocities are VERY optimistic. From what I've seen chronographing loads is you need to subtract 200 FPS away from ANY published 30-30 velocity.

Then there's the WEAK domestic x39 loads, Federal 123grn ammo may only go 2300 FPS but Barnual 123grn SP's goes almost 2600 FPS.

Trust me any x39 load runs off and leaves 30-30 in the dust after 75 yds or so.

R.W.Dale
June 21, 2007, 07:31 AM
Be aware that most imported rifles have .311 bores and the bullets you'd want to use like the 125 BT are sized .308. This can cause accuracy problems.


One area the .30-30 has a clear advantage is in the reloading scene. 7.62x39 reloading isn't the greatest. Less choices in .311 bullets and reloadable brass isn't as prevalent or inexpensive.

Are ya'll sure of that;)


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/Hpim0697.jpg

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=151420

mustanger98
June 21, 2007, 09:23 AM
That last deer I killed wasn't much closer than 100yds and he was just as dead just as fast with a 150gr CoreLokt through the lungs from a .30-30, so I'll stick with my old Winchester.

Ranger J
June 21, 2007, 11:43 AM
Don't Tread On Me & Nematocyst probably have it right. What kind of rifle are you happy with, a lever action or an auto. While I like both actions these two calibers would not be my first choices in either action. Never the less with good shot placement either will get the job done. Which action do you like?
RJ

JShirley
June 21, 2007, 01:43 PM
I've been looking at the little CZ 527 carbine in 7.62x39mm for years. One day...

db_tanker
June 21, 2007, 02:43 PM
This has been kicked around a few times...one cartridge was made for one thing and so on.


I don't think the 30-30 is in danger of being removed as the leader of killin' deer. :) lol


D

aspade
June 21, 2007, 06:44 PM
The problem with that is FACTORY 30-30 velocities are VERY optimistic. From what I've seen chronographing loads is you need to subtract 200 FPS away from ANY published 30-30 velocity.

Then there's the WEAK domestic x39 loads, Federal 123grn ammo may only go 2300 FPS but Barnual 123grn SP's goes almost 2600 FPS.

Good point on the overstated .30-30. Domestic ammo is almost all pretty weak. Too many lawyers, too many duplicitous new cartridges of the week to make look better, and (although not applying to .30-30) too many over gunned half box a year deer hunters who don't like recoil.

That rant done with, I didn't know there was a factory 7.62x39 load that hot, 2600 is smoking and in another class for sure. Know if they expand reliably? Is that 123gr discrete from the 125gr in red and blue boxes?

Gewehr98
June 21, 2007, 09:30 PM
One area the .30-30 has a clear advantage is in the reloading scene.

I've got several thousand rounds of 7.62x39 in my ammo cases, all loaded on my Dillon 550. One of those 125gr Speer SP handloads just happened to squirt out of my Romanian SAR-1 and ventilate a nice doe, putting venison in my freezer last fall.

My Winchester 94 sat in the safe the whole season, as did all my .30-30 handloads.

Advantage who? :scrutiny:

mustanger98
June 21, 2007, 10:22 PM
After so many of these threads, it boils down to a matter of what each of us likes better. Some of us like AK/SKS and 7.62x39. Others of us, myself included, like leverguns and .30-30Winchester. The AK fans will surely want to guffaw the levergun, but the fact remains that there are many many many .30-30's out there still in use and will remain so for a long long long time. The deer I've seen harvested with a .30-30 didn't know any more or less difference than those shot correctly with any other round.

Looks to me like the AK/SKS fans forget we're all gun people and, North or South, East or West, semi-auto or lever, we as hunters should have the same goal of an ethical humane harvest and all our Rights remain on the line.

bratch
June 21, 2007, 10:27 PM
Looks to me like the AK/SKS fans forget we're all gun people and, North or South, East or West, semi-auto or lever, we as hunters should have the same goal of an ethical humane harvest and all our Rights remain on the line.

Darn logic.

I was just getting excited about a caliber war;)

Pick one they both work or get both.

W.E.G.
June 21, 2007, 10:30 PM
I like my Winchester, and my Marlin, and my Romy, and my Yugo....

Its all good.

mustanger98
June 21, 2007, 10:32 PM
Sorry, bratch... I guess I must have got more excited than you and dropped that logical nuke too soon.:D

Yeah, I have a Yugo too. But mine's a M48 in 8mmMauser. I've got the stripper clip of impending doom too.:neener:

R.W.Dale
June 21, 2007, 10:37 PM
Looks to me like the AK/SKS fans forget we're all gun people .


Who ya callin a SKS/AK fan fool:D I own one SKS and it hasn't been shot in over three years. In fact if it wasn't a gift gun I would sell it.


I'll have ya know that I shoot my 7.62x39 out of one of these thank you very much
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/CZusa527s.jpg




Now if you want a caliber war start a 30-30 vs 35 rem thread:evil:

bratch
June 21, 2007, 10:44 PM
I just bought one like the bottom just gotta send my money and order a couple cases of Wolf 154.:D

R.W.Dale
June 21, 2007, 10:50 PM
I just bought one like the bottom just gotta send my money and order a couple cases of Wolf 154.

The Wolf 154grn ammo is DA BOMB, I gave up on trying to match it's velocity and ballistics with 150grn handloads. In the CZ the stuff goes 2200FPS my best 150grn handload would only clock 2078 FPS.

And pretty darn accurate to boot 2.0 MOA on average. In my rifle it's by far the most accurate 7.62x39 factory ammo

Gewehr98
June 21, 2007, 11:55 PM
Looks to me like the AK/SKS fans forget we're all gun people and, North or South, East or West, semi-auto or lever, we as hunters should have the same goal of an ethical humane harvest and all our Rights remain on the line.


This AK/SKS fan also has a .30-30 Winchester 94, .30-30 Remington 788, and used to have a .30-30 Savage 340 before the divorce. (She got it) I use the 7.62x39 AK in the woods simply to torque the Zumbo types. I could use anything in the inventory, truthfully. ;)

SSN Vet
June 21, 2007, 11:59 PM
my $.02....

I shoot and reload for a Marlin 336 in .30-30.

I recently purchased a Saiga sporter in x39 and am setting up to reload for it also.

I'm far from an expert, but here's some thoughts.....

1.) I've not seen load data for bullets above 150 gr. for x39, while .30-30 loads are published for bullets up to 190 gr.

2.) According to Lee's modern re-loading....a 150 gr. x39 can be pushed up to 2,192 fps, while a 150 gr. .30-30 can be pushed up to 2,461 fps

3.) x39 allows you to shoot boat tailed spitzers, realizing a better ballistic coeficient. If you "play by the rules", your .30-30 lever rifle is limited to flat nose, round nose or core loct bullet shapes, which are less aerodynamic. So the x39 will shoot flatter. If you can pay attention to what your doing, you can shoot spitzers from a .30-30 lever......one in the chamber and one in the tube.....NO MORE THAN ONE IN THE TUBE!!! If Hornady ever pulls their head out, reloaders will be able to realize the true potential of the leverolution bullet.

3.) Strictly comparing the cartridges (i.e. both shot from a bolt action), the .30-30 has 2.45 cc of case capacity, while the x39 has 2.03 cc. That's why you can load up the .30-30 with 36 gr. of a slower burning powder like Reloader 15.

4.) If you want to load up 30+ rounds in a magazine and let 'em rip, x39 is the way to go. :)

5.) Look at a bullet mfg. catalog and I think you will find more options available for .30-30. Finding once fired .30-30 brass is pretty easy to do and I can get it locally. I'm striking out big time finding x39 brass. You can get it on e-bay, but it costs more than I'm willing to pay.....especially when you figure in shipping.

6.) rifles in x39 are very economical. you'll spend more for that pretty lever gun.

7.) economical factory x39 ammo (Wolf and the like) is readilly available. If you don't re-load, your .30-30 is going to cost two to three times as much to shoot.

8.) lot's of people cast their own bullets for .30-30 (though there are some special considerations for shooting lead in a Marlin micro groove barrel). I've read posts from guys who cast for their x39 semi-autos, but there seems to be a lot of concern over lead residue fouling the gas ports and many advise against shooting lead in them for this reason.

So...............why not do what I did.......buy both :)

R.W.Dale
June 22, 2007, 12:08 AM
2.) According to Lee's modern re-loading....a 150 gr. x39 can be pushed up to 2,192 fps, while a 150 gr. .30-30 can be pushed up to 2,461 fps


No offense but you'll have the primers falling out of your 30-30 cases before you get within 100 FPS of that published velocity in a 20" levergun. I've messed around with 30-30 bolt actions in the past and what I found is that within STD pressures there just isn't any room for improvements within a 30-30 case. To get any kind of real performance out of small cased rounds you need a high pressure rating, 30-30 just doesn't have it.

There's a plethora of information of loading 7.62x39 with 200grn + bullets for subsonic applications

Stachie
June 22, 2007, 04:28 AM
I would take the 7.62x39 over the 30-30 in a street fight.

Don't Tread On Me
June 22, 2007, 05:31 AM
I would take the 7.62x39 over the 30-30 in a street fight.

Me too. But I think the application here is hunting.

Old Time Hunter
June 22, 2007, 10:02 AM
krochus, I have loaded 32.5 grains of H4895 behind 160gr BTSP Speers with an COL of 2.7125" and shot them out of both my Glenfield 30A and my '94 AE. Ten round average velocity with chrono set at 12' for the Glenfield was 2525fps, the Winchester averaged 2490fps. Interstingly, the Winchester allowed me to put one in the chamber and one in the magazine, and allowed me to cycle. The Glenfield would not allow this unless I had a COL of less than 2.687", but then I could only get 31.5 grains of powder in the shell. Either way, I have been able to push 150gr FN's close to 2500fps, they just fall off though around the 200 yard mark. All my factory ammo has been within a whisker of the stated velocities, don't know where you all are, but mine have been pretty close.

Of course, the .30-30 is much better than the Ruskie thingy, it is American after all.

JustsayMo
June 22, 2007, 12:02 PM
With a Hornady 150gr JRN over 33 grains of Varget (over a grain below Max) I average 2340 fps out of my 336CB Marlin.

The 170's over IMR 3031 at Max (IMR) published data (<39,000 psi) my 336 CB does nearly 2200 fps.

SAAMI spec lists 42,000 psi ( and 38,000 CUP) as Max for 30-30 so there is still room to go up and not go off the reservation.

For hunting, versatility and ease of reloading, I'll take the thuddy thuddy every time.

doubleg
June 22, 2007, 01:07 PM
I have a 30-30 bolt rifle and its one of the most accurate rifles I have ever shot, and thats with iron sights not a scope. Their both great cartridges I really do not have a preference.

mustanger98
June 22, 2007, 04:56 PM
Gewehr98:This AK/SKS fan also has a .30-30 Winchester 94, .30-30 Remington 788, and used to have a .30-30 Savage 340 before the divorce. (She got it) I use the 7.62x39 AK in the woods simply to torque the Zumbo types. I could use anything in the inventory, truthfully.

Good to hear you're not being a total snob about this. Personally, I just haven't found an AK that fit me and SKS's are getting kinda pricey in my part of the country. Last I saw, Yugo's new in the crate and still full of cosmoline were priced near $300. I only have $180 in my old Winchester, plus about $70 in the Lyman #2 tang sight. (Plus, I have an extra Williams FP/TK I can bolt on to accuracy test loads and be able to count clicks of windage and elevation.) I agree about the Zumbo types; somebody needs to torque them some. I'm just as likely to deer hunt with a surplus rifle as a .30-30.

SSN Vet:3.) x39 allows you to shoot boat tailed spitzers, realizing a better ballistic coeficient. If you "play by the rules", your .30-30 lever rifle is limited to flat nose, round nose or core loct bullet shapes, which are less aerodynamic. So the x39 will shoot flatter. If you can pay attention to what your doing, you can shoot spitzers from a .30-30 lever......one in the chamber and one in the tube.....NO MORE THAN ONE IN THE TUBE!!! If Hornady ever pulls their head out, reloaders will be able to realize the true potential of the leverolution bullet.

I have a Savage 340, a crankbolt, in .30-30 and it's a real good shooter. That's the one I shoot spitzers in, but I need to test more loads as it didn't seem to like the 160grainSP's I tried in it that well. I got a fist sized group with them across the bench. Next time I work up some loads, they'll be 150grSP's loaded a mite to the high side.

4.) If you want to load up 30+ rounds in a magazine and let 'em rip, x39 is the way to go.

Yup. That's a fun use for a semi-auto rifle... I do it with a Mini-14 though.:)

Don't Tread On Me Quote:I would take the 7.62x39 over the 30-30 in a street fight.

Me too. But I think the application here is hunting.

It's all in what you're used to, what you expect to do, and what you know you have to work with. I'm sure SKS's and AK's do well in street fights against a mob. But I wouldn't feel under-gunned with a lever either in .357magnum or .30-30 if I choose the time and place against smaller sub-groups of that same mob of enemy. But then, I'm liable to choose my M1 Garand or even a Sharps if I had one. But, the application here in this thread is hunting and for the areas I hunt and the deer, and again, I pick and choose my shots, I'm perfectly fine with my .30-30.:cool:

Somebody mentioned that LeverEvolution round... if Hornady ever releases those bullets as a component at an offordable price, I'll probably try some. I saw where Marlin now offers a version of the 336 with a longer barrel... 26" I think they said... to take better advantage of the new ammo.

SSN Vet
June 22, 2007, 10:44 PM
No offense but you'll have the primers falling out of your 30-30 cases before you get within 100 FPS of that published velocity in a 20" levergun.

none taken....as I noted in my post.....I'm no expert.

hope to get a chronograph some day.....that would be fun, in a geeky engineer kind of way. :)

Nhsport
June 23, 2007, 12:44 AM
All I own is a SKS and an ol model 94 so that is what I will compare.
My 94 is a nasty looking cheep chain store model but it has a good bore and a decent trigger and it shoots well even with the crummy factory sights and my crummy eyes . As a matter of fact I have won several cowboy cast bullet matches with it.
My SKS is a unissued yugo with a perfect bore but even after some work it has a poor trigger . I spent good money to put a peep sight on it and it is a fun shooter but due to the trigger it really is hard to shoot.
Hands down my vote goes to the 30/30.
Just wait untill I get a peep mounted on it !

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