Has Carrying Made You a More Responsible Person?

[DavidVS]

Since I started carrying, I have also found that wearing a loaded gun is like a super tallit katan. That's an undergarment with fringes I wear as a Jew, with the purpose of reminding me to be thinking about God and my devotion to him.

Since I already have that habit (something I wear helping me focus on my responsibilities) I have now found that a loaded gun does the same but even more so.

I won't carry on days I am tired. I won't carry if I have recently succumbed to a temptation. I won't carry if I have not been praying enough daily.

Where I live is safe enough that it seems a needless risk to carry unless I am optimally in sound mind and judgment, with the amount of clarity and patience I can only get through God.

As a result, I've noticed I'm better about my daily praying, eating, exercising, and sleeping.

Does anyone else have examples of how carrying made them a more responsible or moral person?

[19-3Ben]

Well, I've never thought of a gun as compared to tzissis, but it's interesting.
I actually don't behave better. I was never rude, confrontational or whatever to start with.
I was slightly overweight, so I actually lost about 25 LBS before I started carrying on a daily basis. That way I could carry the pistol IWB without having to buy a new pants size. Instead of getting bigger pants, I ust made myself a little smaller!!!
I don't find that it changes the amount that I pray, eat, sleep, etc.... It does make me more aware of my surroundings, so that is worth something.

[Snowdog]

I suspect I'm more likely to stand down from a physical dispute when carrying. I dread the thought of allowing an altercation to turn physical that could have been resolved peacefully when there's a handgun on me.
I suppose that's fine; I'm getting older anyway.

[MikePGS]

This is off topic, but your messages are disabled. I just wanted to say welcome to THR and keep the good posts coming David :D

[Caimlas]

Yes. I'm much more responsible now that I carry - and much more consciously so - though that probably isn't directly due to carrying, so much as the additional responsible (and polite) behavior and the carrying are both symptoms of my increased maturity. After having thought thought through existential questions like, "do I have a right to defend myself?" and "why would I defend myself?" my life as an individual was better conceptually framed within the big picture.

[Oldskoolfan]

I wake up and I meditate on carrying. Then I draw the gun 1000 times trying to perfect my form every morning. Once I have it I then load the gun and light an incense candle to the spirit of John Moses Browning. I then get into a meditative mode and I think about how I am now responsible for the lives of the sheeple around me. How law, order, and the American way of life are being protected by me and my CCW brethren. How once I got the CCW permit after taking Bubba's training course down at the gunshop I a now a Ronin. That is a Samurai warrior without a master. I swear that I will use my CCW skills and my CCW weapon only to defend honor and justice and the light which flickers in the darkness that is the evil of this world. :rolleyes:

Grow up. Its a CCW permit and any idiot with a clean record and who takes the time to take a class (if necessary for your state) and to mail out the application can get a permit. Your not special nor are you a unique snowflake.

[TehK1w1]

Tecumseh, I think you are missing the point of what he is saying.
He is simply stating that CCW has led him to be a more responsible and better person. He does not seem to me to be acting holier-than-thou, which you are implying he is. Maybe you should lighten up a little, there's no need for bashing.

[Oldskoolfan]

I just find it condescending the idea that people tie guns into some sort of religious iconography. The praying more while carrying, not giving in to "temptation", and how it can make them a moral person gives the guns attributes it does not have.

If carrying a gun can make someone a more moral and responsible person couldn't it also make them a less moral and more irresponsible person?

[jfh]

this thread topic, but it does present a good discussion of psychological factors involved in firearms use.

Here's the link: http://www.jpfo.org/ragingagainstselfdefense.htm

I think her discussion of the concepts she identifies for the anti-gun crowd are also applicable to pro-gun people--e.g., these are, by current measure, a good overview of human behavior, including 'mental' behavior.

As far as the discussion so far, I probably slide more to Tecumseh's viewpoint, although not so critically stated. Carrying--or NOT carrying--is something we have chosen to do, and there are any number of (psychological) explanations for that behavior.

For me, I do maintain a philosophical 'reason' for carry, going back to the BOR / Constitutional framework for our Rights. However, that has little to do with my choice to defend myself, and I don't project goodness into what I do.

Another positive factor that is part of US mythology is heroism. E.g., we'd all like to believe we would 'act for good.'--but if one strips out the religious connotations, I don't think we can say that Carrying makes us in any way more responsible--just different from a larger group that also sees themselves as 'responsible.'

It's a complex subject to be sure, but I don't think carrying makes me more responsible--it's that being more responsible had lead me to carry.

Jim H.

[target1911]

TEC

I dont believe he is saying the GUN gives him anything but the responsabiliy that comes along with it flowed over to the rest of his life. I say if helps you to be a beter Christian, Jew or what ever....thats great. I am waiting for my CHL in the mail and it has already altered my way of thinking. My temper is much slower, I let more things just pass, and I think of what the consiquenses for my actions would be.
If he thinks he is to tired to carry, for what ever reason, then so be it. That is his choice.
And further more...... I dont appreciate you, and I find it VERY childish of you to mock him or his religion. That not taking THR.

DAVIDVS
I want to welcome you to THR. Whatever works for YOU, (legally) is fine with me and most everyone here.

[chris in va]

I wouldn't say it gets me any closer to God, but it certainly alters your attitude. I think the phrase Ignorance is Bliss pretty much sums up my pre-carry days.

[DavidVS]

TehK1w1, thank you for doing a good job clarifying what I had tried to say.

Tecumseh, I'm a very religious person, including being a minister by profession. I would have trouble describing any of my daily routines or habits without including religious stuff.

I was not trying to say my guns helped me at all, nor that the permit proved more than it does. Rather the added responsibility changed me. Nor did I intend to assume that everyone who carries would be aided as I found I have been -- thus my point that I had a previously established habit of thinking that was relevant, and my query if anyone else was similarly encouraged in responsibility.

You are correct that to pose and unbiased question I should also have asked if carrying has been detrimental to anyone's responsibility.

I did not mean to come off as "holier than thou". I can be more specific of how I am still needing more holiness: I'll list the kinds of behaviors that I used to be occasionally irresponsible about (staying up too late playing a computer game, entertaining a lustful thought, eating a bit too much dessert) which now I have zero toleratance for. I should also add that even having zero tolerance doesn't mean I am immune to temptations! But "occasionally irresponsible" is happening much less often.

Prayer is a part of what I do all day. Simply saying I pray was not intended to imply I pray especially well, any more than simply saying I teach math at the local community college would imply I'm unusually adept at that activity. It's just part of my job description.

My point was (hopefully) about how even a long-established practice to encourage responsibility at times failed. In my case, I would be sloppy at times with temptations that did not seem to cause any harm if I gave into them. Then, ironically to me, something unplanned and never in my experience discussed as an aide to responsibility was superior for encouraging self-discipline because now no lack of self-control seems harmless.

I purposefully asked if carrying helped people be responsible, not moral. The latter seemed an overly vague and thus meaningless question, whereas the former is pretty measurable along an agreed-upon definition.

I do appreciate your well-written humor. But you left out calling our hypothetical religious nut a Grammaton Cleric (http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Guns_of_Equilibrium.htm)! :p

[camslam]

I think it has made me a more alert person. Also it forces me to really not escalate any kind of problem. I don't necessarily like that because there are times that I would like to speak my mind to someone and can't because "what if it escalates for whatever reason."

I would hope that most people that carry concealed are trying to be good and decent people. Not to hijack the thread, and I know there has been many threads about this already, but I believe if you carry a concealed weapon you have a moral duty to use it when necessary in the defense of yourself, your family, and any other defenseless potential victim.

To me that is what carrying concealed is all about and for a person to do that, they must be a person that is more alert, exercises sound judgement, and is willing to step up and do the right thing when needed. To me that describes a "good" person. Whether they develop those characteristics from a belief in God, or from experience with others, as long as they are good enough to do what is needed, I'm all for it.

[Oldskoolfan]

Perhaps I misinterpreted your post. But either way I dislike the idea of giving a gun some sort of power over the user. Carrying because you gave into tempation just sounds like you see carrying a gun as a recreational activity and that it is meant to be fun. Why not carry just because it is for self defense or other reason? If you punish yourself by not carrying then your just saying you only carry because it is fun and not a normal activity for someone. Thus it becomes abnormal to carry a gun.

I did not mean to come off like an ******* which I think I did now that I go back and reread my post. But nonetheless attributing your better behavior and faith (for lack of a better word) seems to suggest that you need some sort of control factor to make sure your a better behaved person.

Giving it all this power over you and making it into something that it simply is not seems to be a bad idea. If you attribute this much power to a gun then your simply adding fuel to the idea that having a gun can change someones behavior. Your implying that the gun can alter your behavior and the anti's have a good rebuttal to you when you say its not the gun but the individual that commits a crime.

Either way my apologies if I came off as an *******. But nonetheless the gun does not make one special.

[DavidVS]

Thanks for continuing the discussion, Tecumseh.

No need to apologize. I am also someone who would want to know that a very religous person who carries will not become irate if his or her religion is mocked. ;) Perhaps our exchange served to better introduce me on this forum, which is a worthwhile end.

We are still misunderstanding each other. The gun doesn't have power over me, nor does the responsibility of carrying. How carrying aids my self-discipline is not why I carry, but is merely a positive side-effect. In a similar way, we both probably know many examples of people who became more responsible and gained self-discipline because they became parents, even though these areas of growth were not why they became parents!

Perhaps it would be fair to summarize my intended point as, "A number of my responsibilities tire me out. It was a treat to find out that this one, which I was initially not looking forward to, spurs me on with positive effect."

I'm not sure how to reply to your repeated use of the word "special". You may have a valid concern, but I am not sure what you are trying to say.

[Gary A]

This is a very interesting thread and what seemed a potential hostile encounter shows promise of much more. I can't quite formulate my thoughts and so I'll just say welcome to DavidVS and thanks for your measured and dignified responses. Thanks, also, to Tecumseh for both your counter-points and your ability to apologize for appearing to come across too brusque. I think age, experience, mistakes, and Grace have all made me a more responsible person. A weapon is a serious thing by its nature and should be taken seriously. Pay attention, Grasshopper. Wherever you are, be there.

[DavidVS]

Good morning,

Falling asleep last night I thought of three things to add.

First, I appreciate the manners at this forum. There's no reason why the phrase "an armed society is a polite society" should apply to oft-anonymous people who will probably never actually see each other. But it does apply, and I am grateful.

The fact that discussing religion and prayer sents off alarm bells for some people is not their fault at all. Growing up Jewish I fully understand that: most of the famous events done "in the name of the Lord" involved violence by or against my ancestors.

Tecumseh had valid concerns, and put more than enough humor in his posts to let me know he was concerned rather than angry or trolling. Yet still he was chastised by others and he apologized. That's not behavior I see many other places on the internet.

Second, there is some similarity to when people have alarm bells set off by guns and prayer. If more people who prayer talked commonly about it, then people who do not pray would be exposed to how it fits into the lives of more people than nutcases the media showcases.

If I may be allowed a moment of not being polite, I would conjecture Tecumseh's has friends who pray who are shy about talking openly about it and yet would admit they feel that talking more about prayer is something they should be willing to do and actively doing.

The third item perhaps should be its own thread, but I'll risk hijacking this one. Was I incorrect to assume this forum's general audience would also include "not giving in to harmless temptations" as part of being responsible? I realized that it may only be for personal theological reasons that I consider private lacks of self-discipline to be irresponsible.

[jfruser]

DavidVS:

A site related to THR is http://www.armedpolitesociety.com. It's kind of a hang out place to discuss topics/verbiage* not appropriate for THR.

Has Carrying Made You a More Responsible Person?
I do not think so, at my core. My actions, though, have changed.

I can count on one hand the number of beers I have consumed in public in the last two years. Not because I no longer like beer ("Beer, is ther nothing it can't do?"), but because I am carrying nearly 100% of the time. I want my wits about me.

My attitude toward altercations has changed as well. If someone is being nasty, ugly, etc to me & mine, I am more likely to...just...walk...away.

Was I incorrect to assume this forum's general audience would also include "not giving in to harmless temptations" as part of being responsible?
Some folks would, some wouldn't. Put it out there & see who squawks.

There is a heavy "leave me to my own devices" and large & small "L" libertarian presence, here at THR.

Some take offense that any action not causing direct harm to others ought to be painted as a "temptation" and get riled up if others seek to exercise their own liberty to speak on such topics in an incisive manner.

Still others are what I would consider "positivist" libertarians who think that higher layers of gov't ought to intrude into lower layers of gov't to maximize individuals' leisure & liberty. This is, of course, outside the scope of the US Constitution...but inside the scope of such utopian creeds.




* I do not mean it is crass, just fewer explicit restraints, where all are held to "big boy" rules.

[Emptymag]

I'll simply answer, yes.
Well, maybe not more responsible, but rather, more aware of my responsibility to conduct myself in a responsible manner.

(How many times is too many to say the word responsible in one "sentence"? ;))

[Vern Humphrey]

Over the years I have noticed this and commented on it before -- carrying makes one less likely to engage in irresponsible behavior. There really is a psychological impact -- a very favorable one -- on those of us who carry, and I think a great many of us have independently discovered that.

[Oldskoolfan]

The way I see it is that you may notice you drink less when you carry. That is only because you want to keep your wits about you. Well I would say that is you because you said...

Originally posted by jfruser:
I can count on one hand the number of beers I have consumed in public in the last two years. Not because I no longer like beer ("Beer, is ther nothing it can't do?"), but because I am carrying nearly 100% of the time. I want my wits about me.

Here is the relevant point you made:

Originally posted by Jfruser:
I want my wits about me.

You, not the gun, want to keep your wits so you drink less. In some states people do not drink while carring because it is illegal to drink and carry. thus I would say the law keeps them more responsible. well fear of the law. Others do drink and carry if it is legal. It is the person who makes the choice whether they are breaking the law or not, whether they want to or not, not the gun itself.

Is it the presence of a gun that keeps you from drinking? No. It is you that keeps from drinking.

Has your attitude towards altercations changed because you got a gun on your person? Well I would ask were you getting into fistfights frequently before you got the gun? Did you choose to not back down from a bar fight or a riot? If so great, but I doubt anyone here went looking for trouble.

As it stands I do not feel I mocked his religion, Judaism, but the idea that a gun makes one special or more devoted to their chosen deity. I was trying to go for the idea that having a CCW permit makes some people into this hero. And using the idea that they are like a samurai warrior as a humorous comparison.

They are now better behaved and devout people. Are you any more spiritual because you have a gun? Am I because I have a bike? Nope. I would say that you make the conscious choice to do that.

It is the samething as the ramboesque mall ninja fantasys.I have seen the effects in numerous threads on this forum. Just because you have a gun does not mean that your going to save the world from terrorists at the mall/school/work or wherever you happen to be. Having a gun, a back up gun, spare magazines, a flashlight, a tactical knife, a can of mace, a cell phone, a key chain, a spare key chain, a throwdown wallet, and a regular wallet does not make one Jack Bauer. Your just a dude with a lot of stuff in his pockets. Your no better than you make you. Your not better than anyone without all the crap in their pockets. Just more prepared.

I have read postings on here refferring to non-gunowners as sheeple. That pisses me off because it reeks of elitism. When gunowners do that they are simply stroking their own egos.

As for the use of the word "special":

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=281985

[Whirlwind06]

Having a gun, a back up gun, spare magazines, a flashlight, a tactical knife, a can of mace, a cell phone, a key chain, a spare key chain, a throwdown wallet, and a regular wallet does not make one Jack Bauer. Your just a dude with a lot of stuff in his pockets
Thank you for making me spew coffee all over my keyboard and screen :)

[hrgrisso]

Thank you David for this idea.

My .02.

I carry everywhere I am that is not on the way to work (not allowed :mad:) and church. But I do find myself watching my behavior. Let me define this a bit more.

I find that I do not enter into needless or rambling discussions with others. Simply because I do not want to play into the media projected image that gun owners are loud uncouth rednecks.

I find that I drive slower (not slow, slowER). If I get pulled over, I don't want to turn a police officer upset with a speedy driver, into a police officer upset with a gun toting driver.

I also find that I watch my appearance more. Again this is two fold. To "hide" as many do not expect gun owners to dress well, not saying they don't but hiding it from others misperceptions. As well as, if I need my gun that I'm carrying, I don't want the boys in blue to mistake me for a perp when they arrive. I hope they are less likely to shoot a suspect in slacks and a polo shirt.

I do not think that anyone is saying it's the gun giving them special powers (POWER RANGERS UNITE!) But I believe that having the gun, and carrying it causes me to look inwardly because I don't want to A: Be spotted for what I am. B: I want to put a positive face on the Gun Owning community, not what the media tells people it looks like. C: If I am reasonable, I can reasonably expect others to reciprocate.

I find that by controlling myself that I am able to talk about RKBA and people listen. Instead of merely being dismissed for a "radical" I can gain my audiences participation.

Lastly Tecumseh, JMB was Mormon, not Catholic, so I don't know what good the candle is going to do! :neener:

[Vern Humphrey]

You, not the gun, want to keep your wits so you drink less.

The title of the thread is, "Has Carrying Made You a More Responsible Person?" It is not, "Has Your Gun Made You a More Responsible Person?"

The majority opinion seems to be that carrying (not the gun itself) does make one more aware of one's responsibilities. That phenomenon has been reported over and over, by a great many people -- and seems well borne out in the statistics that show CCW holders rarely commit crimes.

[dairycreek]

Carrying has not made me a more responsible person per se. I always have been that. However, carrying has made me a much more observant and vigiliant person. FWIW:D

[Oldskoolfan]

What statistics are those Vern Humphrey: There is a theory amongst criminologists that 6% of the nation commits the majority of crimes. Does this mean that a CCW holder cannot be a part of that 6%? There are bad people but the majority of these 6% commit crimes that have not been reported or noticed. THats what we have to remember.

My idea would be just to treat a permit for what it is, a permit to carry a gun. Having one does not mean that we are not criminals nor does it mean we are honest law abiding people. We are just people with permits to carry a firearm.

[Gary A]

Of course, as a general rule (yes, there are exceptions and bureaucratic screw-ups), people with a criminal record are not likely to be issued a CCW permit. This would mean that precious few CCW permit holders would be among those "6%" who have, in the past, committed crimes that have been recorded. There may be those among CCW holders who are among those who have never committed a crime but are going to commit one in the future. No database can predict who is going to do what in the future. However, since most of the 6% are habitual and repeat offenders (which is why only 6% commit most of the crimes), it seems likely that since most CCW permit holders have not committed crimes in the past, they are also likely not to commit them in the future. People show patterns in their lives. Habitual criminals commit crimes. People with a developed conscience or super-ego, generally do not. Anyway, why would a career criminal, possibly a sociopathic individual, with a rap sheet, bother to even try to get a legal CC Permit? Would it be a stretch to think he might just carry a gun without being "permitted"?

[Srigs]

Yes. I am 100% responsible because I need to be. I don't flick people off, drive aggressively and rarely honk my horn.

Before, I was 98% responsible but now made me realize I needed to change a couple of things to minimize my risk to be "involved in something!"

[ZeSpectre]

I've always been prone to having a "little voice" in my head start describing how wrong any given situation could go if self-restraint is not exercised. In general this has kept me pretty responsible and low-key over the course of my life and the thoughts that focus around my CCW are really just a continuation of that so I don't really think it has been the catalyst for too much change in my behavior.

[Vern Humphrey]

What statistics are those Vern Humphrey: There is a theory amongst criminologists that 6% of the nation commits the majority of crimes. Does this mean that a CCW holder cannot be a part of that 6%?

In this and other threads, several people have posted statistics from their respective states showing a very low offense rate amongst CCW holders.

Do you honestly think if CCW holders were shooting people at the same rate as gang-bangers, the anti-gun press wouldn't be trumpeting that to the sky?

[budney]

There is a theory amongst criminologists that 6% of the nation commits the majority of crimes. Does this mean that a CCW holder cannot be a part of that 6%?

Of course a CCW holder can be. But the question is whether a CCW holder is equally likely to commit crimes as a randomly-selected person. The answer is almost certainly "no," because people who have committed crimes in the past are denied CCW. And any CCW who commits a crime loses it, so his repeat offenses are all committed as a non-CCW holder.

And that's without taking into account that folks who get a CCW are probably, in my opinion, less likely to commit crimes anyway.

--Len.

[Joe Demko]

No. Carrying makes me better prepared to defend myself. My level of responsibility is a result of the complex interaction of my basic personality and the influences of my upbringing. Guns, or the carrying of them, do not change me as a person.

[Texfire]

At the risk of sounding flip, becoming a more responsible person has made me carry.

[Oldskoolfan]

I could agree with what Texfire just said. I really dislike the idea of people touting that simply having a permit means your not a criminal. The permit is issued to anyone with a criminal background in some states. That however does not mean they are not a criminal. I do agree they are more liklely to be interested in following the law as the pemit allows them to carry a gun legally. So it does show an interest and probably a tendency to follow the law but it does not prove that in all cases.

[DavidVS]

At the risk of sounding flip, becoming a more responsible person has made me carry.

Heh. Brilliant reversal, Texfire. :-)

[S.P.E.C.T.R.E.]

ZeSpectre, I often wonder if you are a long lost twin or something, because every time I read one of your posts I find myself saying "I could have written that".

To speak to the OP, I have adjusted very little, but I find myself avoiding downtown, driving a bit slower, drinking less, and being more aware of my surroundings. The awareness comes from my desire to avoid conflict, and to know what my options are if conflict arrives.

[rdaines]

I'll have to agree with hrgrisso's post. Among other things, having to stop for a traffic violation and to announce the presence of a concealed firearm and the ensuing reaction does not appeal to me. Nor does being spotted with a bulging, printing handgun make for a fun day. So driving slower, dressing better and an overall law abiding appearance seem to be a plus. I also open doors for women...

[shadowalker]

I can see how it can make people be on their best behavior but concealed carrying hasn't made me a more moral or responsible person it is an extension of me. I carry because I am responsible, I am not responsible because I carry, if that makes sense.

Before carrying I already obeyed the law, opened doors, etc. Open carrying does tend to increase the nice traits of my personality because I want people to realize that there are responsible, safe, and sane gun owners out there.

[orionengnr]

Tecumseh--

You are being unnecessarily confrontational and ugly. That is not THR.

The OP and several respondents were being contemplative and somewhat rhetorical. Nothing un-THR about that.

Remember, attack the idea, not the person.

Although I do not follow the OPs practices, and although I would prefer that he carry 24/7, that is his choice to make, not yours or mine.

And any religious connotations he makes are his. Attacking him, or them, is not in keeping with THR.

Please give this some thought.

Thank you. Live long and prosper, unless that offends you. In which case, feel free to drop dead. :)

[Oldskoolfan]

:rolleyes:

Finish reading the thread. I already apologized. I still think that it is the person more than the presence of a gun that makes one more responsible.:neener:

[orionengnr]

Okay, thank you and well done.
I agree with your final premise.
May The Force be with you.
:)

[jeepmor]

Umm, no, just more mindful of my surroundings and those in it.

OP, don't take this wrong, but if you carry, always carry. You not feeling worthy one day may have you in the middle of an armed robbery while your out picking up a pack of gum at 7-11. I live in a safe neighborhood too, but there was a recent armed robbery at a Subway exactly 24 hours after my wife and I were there. Spooky.

[DavidVS]

Remember, attack the idea, not the person.

orionengnr,

Tecumseh wasn't attacking me. He was wanting what is best for me. He was "watching my back" against a wrong and potentially dangerous way of thinking.

True, he failed his diplomacy skill roll. But his good intentions were still clear. I would have had to be alarmingly self-centered to not see that much.

[DavidVS]

orionengnr and jeepmor,

We differ on what is for me a theological issue.

I'm not responsible for other people's safety. God has that job. He and I talk a lot, and he hasn't asked me to carry all the time when I'm in public.

When my self-discipline or alertness is lacking then I trust God has someone else watching out for people or will be doing so himself. After all, there are plenty of CHLs where I live, and God confuses and confounds his people's enemies quite regularly.

[Kevin108]

How do you know what changes in your life are because of your CHP and which are just from getting older and learning from your mistakes?

[HerrWolfe]

No, and the reverse is probably more true. I think less now of trying to stay out of places that offer intimidation or worse, because that is where I find are the most interesting activities. I feel the deck is not stacked against me now, that I have a reasonable chance to make a difference in the normal outcome.

[jad0110]

Carrying has not made me a more responsible person per se. I always have been that. However, carrying has made me a much more observant and vigiliant person.

That's what happened when I starting carrying. I hope I never have to use it, so I am always checking out my surroundings, as I would rather just leave before trouble starts.