Camping/Hunting back-up/Hiking Pistol

[Yardstick]

There's been a law change farily recently allowing bow hunters to carry a sidearm for personal defense in the state I'm in. Part of the argument used to get it passed was that hunters were coming across illegals with guns, drug smugglers and drug growers while hunting and had no personal defense. I personally had a close encouter with a mountain lion a few years ago. Luckily, I was carrying a 1911 on my hip (illegally at the time). I didn't have to shoot, but I'm pretty sure the confidence to whip the pistol out probably saved me from freezing up and becoming mountain lion excrement.

I've carried a 1911 with me in the woods simply because it was available (first serious gun I bought aside from a .22), I like the gun and can shoot it fast and accurately. There are some that think the .45 ACP is fine for woodland critters and others think it is underpowered. So what's your recommendation for a good, powerful round that is still relatively easy and affordable to shoot from a reliable and high(er)-capacity gun? It seems like 10mm would be ideal except for the cost and availability. Any other ideas, or should I pick up some hot .45 ACP and keep carrying my old favorite?

[Wedge]

Anything thin skinned (in other words not a bear) and that .45 will be fine.

If you get a 10mm add in an extra $250-300 for reloading equipment :-)

[Baron357]

Well if you want a "higher" cap gun then you really only have the choice of the 10mm, You can get some really hot stuff from Double Tap that would be perfect for the woods. They also have some good .45 acp stuff "for the woods". But I am still one of those that carries a .357 revo in the woods, well everywhere actually. I love my 7 shot S&W 620 although I would feel very safe with a Glock 10mm.

[MCgunner]

Use a good +P and I don't think you're too under gunned against a black bear. It lacks a little penetration, but not THAT bad if you use ball or a SWC bullet. I have a handload, 200SWC, for my P90 that's up around 1100 fps. However, I really prefer carrying one of my .357s. I also have a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt, but it's a heavy thing to tote all day, prefer carrying my medium frame .357 with a good 158 grain SWC. It's accurate, easy to shoot, has killed several deer for me, and I have confidence it'll penetrate and do the job. It's a lot lighter on the hip for all day carry than the Blackhawk. But, if I am ever in griz country, I'll put up with the extra weight of the Blackhawk for the 300 grain bullet pushing 1200 fps.

[Dgindlesperger]

stick with the .45, you never know what could jump out of the bushes

[Yardstick]

Black bears are probably all I'd encounter too (in AZ). I'm more freaked out about the big cats, especially after seeing one up close and personal. I was considering a new gun purchase and I keep drooling over the Bul M5's (and other polymer framed 1911's). (Homer) MMMmmmm Hi-cap 1911 style polymer .45 ACP... (/Homer)

[RevolverMan567]

Buy the G20 and some double tapp! Enough full house 10mm to handle just about any situation.

[Majic]

I have never understood why a hunter who has a weapon in his hands worries about another tucked away in a holster. :confused:

[glockman19]

I carry my S&W 686+ 4". I will be partnering it with either a Marlin or Henry in .357. I also plan on getting a 629 and either a Marlin or Henry in .44Mag by the end of summer.

[Yardstick]

I have never understood why a hunter who has a weapon in his hands worries about another tucked away in a holster.

Well, when your in-hand weapon is a compound bow and your holstered weapon is a cocked and locked 1911 and a mountain lion has managed to stalk within 5 yards of you, you'll get it. ;)

[Nail Shooter]

I have both 45acp and 10mm guns. No question, I'd choose the 10mm w/ some hot 180gr loads. I'd probably alternate FMJ and HP rounds in the mag. It (10mm) is readily available via the internet.

A G20 Glock is like the hand of Thor. Only other gun I'd feel comfy with is a 44 mag if there were black bear around. Somehow, 16rds of full power 10mm is more comforting than 6rds of 44 mag--for me anyway. I could get two shots of the 10mm off for every one shot from my 44 mag.

Nail

[WeThePeople]

I'm not a hunter so chalk my question up to ignorance if you need to.

Why won't the bow do the trick?

[Nail Shooter]

A bow at full draw can be a little large to swing around toward that cougar you see stalking you out of the corner of your eye--depending how you are situated in your cover. If the arrow falls off the rest, that'll be a problem when your life might be on the line. FOLLOW UP SHOTS are not real fast to get off with a bow either. And, if you miss with the FIRST shot, then what happens? It would be much harder to shoot a bow while you are moving away from a threat. Trust me--from someone that has bow hunted--you'll want a gun if an animal is after you.

I can get two shots off in about a second with my G20--accurately placed--at self defense distances. Not possible to do that with a bow.



Nail

[Wedge]

If I am on my private property and come across a couple of guys setting up a meth lab I would much rather have a side arm with me instead of relying solely on a single broadhead.

Also even a shotgun is hard to swing around if that monster buck is over on your right (for a right handed shooter) and you are sitting in a stand/blind. Easier to get the shot with a handgun (don't have to move your whole body).

[22-rimfire]

My choice would be a 3" Ruger GP100 357 mag or Smith 4" Model 57 Mountain Gun (41 mag). I'd probably just carry a jacketed soft point factory load of average power (ie basic factory ammo). If I'm concerned about large bears, then I'd go with heavy solids in the 41 mag. But I'm not particularily worried about bears where I would be likely to hunt or hike. 10mm is just fine.

[Sundles]

Mt. Lions are easy to kill and even easier to turn and all you have to do is turn it, not kill it. A good 22 will work. Same story with black bear although they are a bit harder to hurt than a lion, all you have to do is hurt a black bear and he will leave. This is not so with grizzly. I've killed dozens of bear and I've been messing with bear of both species for much of my life.

If you want to stop a grizzly attack, chances are your going to have to kill him. But black bears are not normally hard to dissuade by inflicting some pain.

[Yardstick]

I'll try to do the quick version of my story...

I was hunting elk and standing in some small trees 20 yards from a water hole one night. I saw something that I thought, erroneously as it turned out, was a dog. When I realized it was a mountain lion I just didn't take the shot because I didn't have a tag and he was far enough away I wasn't too worried about him.

The next night I was slowly turning to check behind me because I figured that was my most vulnerable side. As I was turning to face front from having craned all the way left I saw the mountain lion 5 yards in front of me. I already had my hand on the .45 since I was looking out for the lion. I figured if it got close I'd have a better chance with the pistol and if it was at the water hole again I'd just take it with the bow. In the time it took to draw, flick the safety off and start lining up the sights, the mountain lion took a couple of leaps and was down in a ravine. Since I didn't get attacked and wasn't able to get a good sight picture I didn't take a shot.

This all happened about 3/4 mile from an established and active campground. I might have been able to use the bow as a barrier or a club, but that's about it.

Wedge: I don't know if the laws are different where you are, but here it would get you in big trouble to be taking an elk or deer with a gun during bow season (I hope that wasn't what you were implying!). :)

[moxie]

If you're comfortable with your 1911, as you seem to be, stick with it.

[Eyesac]

Yeah, I also vote for the 1911. There's better stuff out there (10mm) but I wouldn't sweat it...

[cookekdjr]

If you're comfortable with your 1911, as you seem to be, stick with it.
My thoughts exactly.

[slow944]

I was bow hunting in 96 with my brother in E. Texas at about 5:30am from a 10' ladder stand and had a cat scream and let me tell you I was scared s**tless. I don't know if I could have pulled the bow back to shoot mush less spotted the cat in the dark. That was right after CHL's were passed and I didn't have a handgun with me, but I carry a 4" S&W M66 with me now. The 45 will do the job on a thin skinned cat or anyother "varmint" you may come across. I just like the 357 for the noise and flames out the barrel.

[Wedge]

Yardstick, no I was talking carrying a sidearm during gun season as I do when deer hunting and using the pistol if the opportunity presented itself.

During bow season it would be specifically for defense.

[Yardstick]

Good to know that the 1911 (or more specifically .45 ACP) still seems like a reasonable option in the woods. It seems like there's a lot of talk about it being too slow or just not powerful enough overall so I got curious. I need to go find some hot loads to try now. :)

[balin]

I just picked up a 686p for wilderness travel. 7 shots of .357 mag. should be comforting. Black bears and cougars are the biggest critters around Washington state. But 2 legged critters at the trail head are more of a worry then the 4 legged kind.

[full metal]

When outdoor's I like to carry my 357 mag,but in town my 45 acp.
but if you want a semi pistol may I recomend the 357 sig.
glock make's the g31 and g32 springfield make's the xd-357 in two tone,and
the great thing about these gun's is you can mount a flash light under it.
let's not forget sig saur pistol's

[209]

While not hiking/camping, I have a small horse farm. With the recent influx of black bear into the area, I'm a bit worried one may wander into one of my pastures. Although, the likelihood of a black bear going after a full grown horse is slim, just having one getting into the area will panic the herd and I’ll end up some hurt horses. There was a bear attack at a nearby farm, but the bear went after a miniature horse which was only about 32 inches tall.

Anyway, should it happen, it’ll probably occur when I’m not there and my wife is asking what to use. The options are 12ga shotgun, .40cal handgun, 5.56mm AR. (We have an 8mm Mauser, but she refuses to shoot that and a black powder .50cal which I have already discounted as a viable tool.)

I’m thinking the 12ga loaded with 00buck (or maybe slugs?). I really don’t want to use an AR since should it happen it’ll surely end up in the news and using an “assault rifle ” ( :barf: on that description, but it's what the media does best) will surely end poorly for me given the notoriety connected with them. We have all seen what the press does when a "dreaded black rifle" is used for anything. ;)

The only other thing I can think of would be loading up a couple of mags for one of the .40cal handguns with FMJ ammo since a few hunters I have spoken with have said HPs aren't too good against bear.

Any thoughts?

[Yardstick]

I'm amazed at what will stop a .40 cal HP. My dad and I were shooting his P226 into 1 gallon water jugs (old milk jugs) a couple of weeks ago. When we were done I found one slug still inside the jug! There was no way it could have gotten in there other than to be stopped between the walls of the milk carton in the water. After that I'm definitely thinking my outdoor defensive ammo of choice will be FMJ or at very least an alternating HP/FMJ mag.

[KINGMAX]

At minimum a S&W 686 in .357 magnum w/ a 4 inch barrel

[normal]

I would say to stick with the .45 if bears are not your main concern. Get some hot ammo, such as Gold Dot 200 +P or Federal HST 230 +P and go with it. If I was going to go buy something for your situation, I would think about getting a Sig 226 in .357 Sig. It has ballistics that compare to a .357 mag, but in a high capacity. I carry a Taurus Tracker .44 mag. with 2 1/2" barrel for hiking, but that is usually in bear country.

[rolltide]

I also bow hunt in southern AZ. I also had an up close and personal experience with a mt. lion last year. As someone else said, lions are pretty thin skinned and easy to deter if shot. Bears are not a big problem in that particular area, although there are a few there. In bear areas, I prefer my 44mag or 445 Supermag, but I figure in the border area, humans are more likely to be the problem. In the area I hunt, every wash and ravine is literally filled with discarded clothing, water bottles, food containers, nylons restraints and back packs discarded by illegals. Border Patrol helicopters are constant companions and Border Patrol patty wagons are usually seen 3 or 4 times a day. Illegals looking for work will not generally be a problem, which is the vast majority, but the drug smugglers will kill you in a heartbeat if you get in their way. The drug smugglers (and other illegals for that matter) almost always move through at night, so they are not usually a problem for hunters. I have seen them as I was driving out of the area in the evening, that is why I usually make my way back to the truck with plenty of daylight to spare. If you see a bunch of illegals scattering like a covy of quail and there is no BP in the area, they are running from drug smugglers moving through the area (sometimes under protection of Mexican police or military.) Best thing to do is get out of Dodge yourself if you can. Although I carried a AMT backup last season I have decided to carry my Ruger P89 this season with 15 rounds in the gun and at least 1 (probably 2) 30 round clips in my belt pack pocket. I figure multiple 9MM will also DETER a cat for sure and probably a black bear most of the time, even if it does not put either down immediately. I also keep an AK47 behind the seat of my truck. I figure even the drug smugglers will probably let me leave, but you never know. If I have to face multiple threats with hi cap weapons, I want a lot of rounds and quick reloads. If I get into a running gun fight while trying to get back to my truck, I figure a lot of rounds will be needed. If I get back to the truck and it has been shot up or diabled in some way, I figure the AK will give me a better chance than the pistol while trying to make my way out for help (or forting up at the truck until help arrives). Like some of those old west folks used to say, the best use of a pistol is to fight your way to a long gun. I also carry a radio and stay in touch with other hunters in the area, which are numerous on rifle hunts, but less so on bow hunts. That area usually issues 1000 tags on the first rifle hunt and has a 50 percent success rate. It is a good area, you just have to be careful of ALL the "wildlife." I feel pretty safe on the rifle hunts due to the number of hunters in the area, but some bow hunts get a little spooky. I am probably going to bow hunt elsewhere sometimes, but I bow hunt that area while scouting for my rifle hunt.


Roll Tide

[Yardstick]

My dad and I ended up in an area like that a couple of years ago looking for Javelina. It seemed like every wash and ravine had clothes, water bottles and some kind of electrolyte drink bottles in it. It was pretty far north for all that stuff too. We were surprised to see it. Some border patrol guys came by our camp and told us the area was pretty active with human traffickers and drug runners. They actually seemed pretty concerned that we were there basically unarmed.

[MCgunner]

My main hiking, camping, hunting back up even in bear country is a .357 4" revolver. I've carried a Security Six, a M19 Smith, a Rossi M971, and my current Taurus M66. The Taurus is the most accurate with .38 wadcutter, very accurate, head shots on rabbit at 30 yards accurate. It's also accurate with powerful .357 handloads. I have a .45 Colt I like, but the .357 is lighter on the hip when I'm hiking.

[KaceCoyote]

9mm

Yep, I said it. 9mm.

My CZ-P01 has served me well in the woods, and would suggest anything with a light rail. Sometimes I need my left hand to do other things like move branches or brace myself, but I still feel the need to put gun and light somewhere.

[KaceCoyote]

9mm

Yep, I said it. 9mm.

My CZ-P01 has served me well in the woods, and would suggest anything with a light rail. Sometimes I need my left hand to do other things like move branches or brace myself, but I still feel the need to put gun and light somewhere.

[wolf_from_wv]

Good to know that the 1911 (or more specifically .45 ACP) still seems like a reasonable option in the woods. It seems like there's a lot of talk about it being too slow or just not powerful enough overall so I got curious. I need to go find some hot loads to try now.

Go with what you know. A .45 that is an extension of you, is better than a .500 that you just bought. A .500 that is an extension of you, is better than a .45...

I was standing in front of the house, with my back facing a wooded area, one evening getting ready to unlock the door. I felt an electric sensation run up my spine, and all the hairs on my neck stood up. A couple seconds later (?), as I straightened up from a crouch (when did I do that???), I looked down at the opened folding knife in my hand (when did I do that???). Nothing ever materialized...

Unload gun. Handle the gun, take it apart, insert magazines/practice loading cylinders with dummy cartridges. Do this until you don't have to think about the procedures, but don't get careless. Set clay pigeons at 50/100 yards, shoot until you can hit them with one shot. BA/UU/R. Do this until the gun is an extension of you.

[CB900F]

Fella's;

I live, hunt, and play in Montana. We have bear and lions all over, both species of bear and wolves too. I've been bad-breath close to Mr. Griz & I'm not talkin' the U of M football coach either.

Some comments on previous posts. Situational awareness is worth more than any particular gun.

"I'm amazed at what will stop a .40 cal HP. My dad and I were shooting his P226 into 1 gallon water jugs (old milk jugs) a couple of weeks ago. When we were done I found one slug still inside the jug! There was no way it could have gotten in there other than to be stopped between the walls of the milk carton in the water. After that I'm definitely thinking my outdoor defensive ammo of choice will be FMJ or at very least an alternating HP/FMJ mag."

What's the problem? Given that you didn't state what range or ammo you were using, I'll extrapolate from the .40 that I use. 180 grains of .40 caliber bullet exiting the muzzle at 1000 fps generates right on 400 ft. lbs. of energy according to Speer #13. You got a total energy dump in the target medium with something around 6 to 8 inches of penetration. I think the bullet did a damn good job. What was the range? Under 25 yards? I have carried, but don't normally, the .40 off pavement. I have better tools, but circumstances can change without making an appointment so's one can adapt. Life's like that.

Normally, I'll carry a .357 for hiking or working off pavement. If I'm hunting I'll usually carry something a touch nastier than the .357. Why? Because if you've downed an elk & are in the process of field dressing, the rifle is usually propped against something several feet away. When ursus horribilus wants your elk & isn't too concerned about your civil rights, having a heavy handgun helps. When your hands are bloody from gutting the beast, smooth grips are not good for what should be obvious reasons.

How often does something like that happen? Not very often at all. But it does happen & it's your life at stake. I choose to sweat a bit more & carry a heavier handgun.

900F

[elkhuntingfool]

I ALWAYS carry my 45acp when I'm hunting, hiking, camping, etc... I'm more concerned about the two-legged predators than I am the four-legged predators.

[bl4ckd0g]

Ditto on the .40 S&W lack of penetration. I couldn't even get it to pierce a damn unopened generic soda can while my .357sig barrel and 9mm popped it open every time.

Since you're comfortable with your 1911, why not give .45 Super a try if your pistol is rated to handle the higher pressures.

[jeepmor]

I put these in my compact 45

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=156&osCsid=007c9f6bd7361103b6c226be8f661de9

or if you are a 10mm person for woods carry, I choose these.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158&osCsid=007c9f6bd7361103b6c226be8f661de9


Check out their JHP offerings for self defense. Mr. McNett, the proprietor, offers some exceptionally high energy offerings. And his offerings are boxes of 50 rounds, not 20.

Good stuff, I really like Double Tap and I keep a magazine worth stashed away just for the woods excursions. Thankfully, I've had no need to employ them when shooting was not the gig and the pistol was only carried for self defense from critters on 2 or 4.

[Yardstick]

Just for the record here... I wasn't disappointed with the .40's performance, just surprised. It was off the shelf (probably Remington) standard hollow point. For your standard 'zombie' defense or whatever two-legged predator, I can see the value. Out in the woods it seems like you'd want better penetration.

I was a little surprised at my .45's lack of performance with WWB FMJ. I was shooting some of that at a relatively thin piece of galvanized steel sheet metal one time and it was having a hard time penetrating. The sheet metal was unsupported and had some bends so it was able to take some of the shock. My dad's .40 cal seemed to penetrate that just fine (at least more consistently than the .45). All due to the different ballistics I suppose. My AR-15 at 100 yards made nice clean little holes that looked like they could have been drilled. :)

.45 Super sounds like something fun to try just to try it (and it sounds like it would be a good one to carry in the woods). My 1911 should handle it if I can find the right springs. Anybody know where to get a ~28#, 30# or 32# recoil spring and corresponding firing pin spring? Or is there a specific .45 Super spring kit I can get somewhere?

[Chuhhuniban]

Good to know that the 1911 (or more specifically .45 ACP) still seems like a reasonable option in the woods. It seems like there's a lot of talk about it being too slow or just not powerful enough overall so I got curious. I need to go find some hot loads to try now.

Interesting. I hike a lot in the Mogollon Rim area of Central Arizona, generally in the company of bear attractors (AKA my dogs, and we've seen several over the years). Haven't yet seen a lion, but I've walked up on old kills. I almost always carry a M1911, but it's a Delta Elite in 10 mm with Double Tap 200-grain WFN Beartooths in the magazine. I was introduced to the round by a guide in Montana — it's a hardcast, heavy, flat-nosed lead slug, a "bone breaker" is what he called it for woods protection. You can find the Delta Elites on the Internet auction sites and then you have two Colts and two are better than one!!! :D

[SHOOT1SAM]

I would stick with the 1911 as well.....in 10mm. Delta Elites are still around, although they're getting spendy. Kimbers and Dan Wessons are plentiful too.

You could beef up your .45 acp to .460 Rowland or .45 Super, but you'll have greater magazine capacity with the 10mm, in the same, familiar platform.

Double Tap makes loads for both hunting and self-defense in both calibers.

Sam

[Tom Fury]

I used to carry a steel P-12 camping; I had rust problems after a particularly humid outing; also found it heavy, so for weight saving and non corrosion with sufficient punch and capacity, I think I'd choose a Glock 29/30 or 20/21 for a woods gun (latter works for me; big hands). I like 10 MM as well as .45. I'm a little more interested in having a Hicap in the woods than on the street for some reason...I hike and camp in KY and TN. Red River Gorge in KY is not a place to be unarmed because of two legged varmints.
Cheers, TF

"Theres been many a shallow grave dug out in that Gorge, boy"... Local Law Enforcement who would not go alone to investigate screams and gunshots heard on camping trip. Anybody here know Stargap Arch?