Saiga and 922r complaince questions.


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Samuraigg
June 20, 2007, 10:02 PM
Hey folks. I just got a saiga 7.62x39 rifle. Thing is, I would like to be able to use 30 round magazines, but to do so, I need to cut down my foreign parts to 10 for 922r compliance. So my first question is, do any of you folks know where I could get US made 30 round saiga magazines? Second question; do you know of the easiest parts I could swap without having to do my own amateur gunsmithing on the rifle?

Because I'm not very handy and I am pretty afraid of messing up my Saiga, I don't want to do my own conversion. I just want to swap out enough parts so I can use the high cap magazines.

Thanks again for the help. I already posted on the saiga-12.com forums, but I couldn't get much help so far.

I wouldn't be averse to having the conversion done on the rifle; I just lack the ability to do it myself.

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kcmarine
June 20, 2007, 10:52 PM
I don't think you have to. I'm not sure, though.

bratch
June 20, 2007, 11:01 PM
I don't think you have to. I'm not sure, though.

No one is real sure but most do to be on the safe side.

I'm pretty sure copesdist.com has the 30 rd mags.

The easiest parts to swap will be the trigger assembly but I'm not sure how it would work on an unmodded rifle. The forearm wouldn't be too hard either.

Navy87Guy
June 20, 2007, 11:02 PM
If you want to use the high capacity magazines, then you are right - you need to meet 922R compliance.

I don't know of any US-made Saiga mags. Surefire markets Saiga mags, but I haven't been able to determine how many (if any) US parts they use. A safe bet would be two (follower and floor plate) - but you need to confirm that.

The next easiest compliance part would be a TAPCO Galil-style handguard, like this: http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?id=19d522f8-d623-4c96-b7ba-c129e3aa71e5 Make sure to get the Saiga version, not the regular one.

The next choice would be a gas piston or a hammer. Both require some work. I'm not familiar with gas pistons, so maybe someone else can chime in.

I'll also tell you that the conversion isn't as hard as it may sound. I don't consider myself particularly handy, but I was able to do mine in the course of a couple of weekends (part time and with a wait for parts). I think it came out pretty good:
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/889657/Saiga_practical.jpg

The hardest part was drilling the first rivet...I was nervous! After that, it went pretty smoothly until I broke a tap off inside the receiver. I managed to get that out and recover without too much difficulty. At any rate, don't discount the possibility of eventually doing it yourself.

HTH,

Jim

Samuraigg
June 20, 2007, 11:11 PM
Yeah I found the base plate and magazine follower those are ordered and hopefully on the way. So that brings me down to 12 parts. Found the galil handguard, just need to figure out the piston now.

I can't see how that can be too hard to replace. Just take apart the rifle and replace the piston.

FMJMIKE
June 20, 2007, 11:40 PM
I used an american made FCG (Tapco G-2), K-Var buttstock and an Ace Limited Galil pistol grip. My .223/5.56 Saiga uses Galil Orlite 35 round mags. Just had to install a bullet guide. It is scary at first...........but just go slow and read as much as you can about converting Saigas. I have converted 8 Saigas so far. Good Luck....
http://wm17.inbox.com/thumbs/c_a8fd8_c162b37_oJ.jpg.thumb

TOU
June 21, 2007, 05:40 AM
Navy87Guy,

So where do your pistol grips come from?

FMJMIKE,
I used an American made FCG (Tapco G-2), K-Var buttstock and an Ace Limited Galil pistol grip.

I have not been able to find this grip, where can I get this grip?

My .223/5.56 Saiga uses Galil Orlite 35 round mags.

Got source for these mags?

Beautiful rigs guys...well done!

Thx!

Samuraigg
June 21, 2007, 08:43 PM
For folks that haven't seen my threads, I just bought a Saiga 7.62 rifle and I want to be able to use high capacity magazines. Thing is, I don't want to convert the rifle. So I need to mess with 922r compliance. From what I read the Saiga 7.62 has 14 parts total for 922r.

Here is what I am ordering, could someone look through and see if everything looks ok so I don't wind up as a felon when I take the dang thing to the range?

Part number one:

TAPCO US made piston (http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?id=7c2c73f7-d5d5-47bf-b72d-f86c0e7b7956). I'll replace the old piston and put this puppy in.

Part number two:

TAPCO Galil style handguard (http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?id=19d522f8-d623-4c96-b7ba-c129e3aa71e5) Take out the old handguard, put this guy in. Two parts down.

Part number three:

US made AK 47 magazine floorplate from APEX Gun Parts (https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/cPath/21/products_id/162?osCsid=94e2964619d524bd994d9d428f8b164d) Take out the old floorplate, put this in. Thats three.

Finally, Part number four:

US made magazine follower (https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/cPath/21/products_id/163?osCsid=94e2964619d524bd994d9d428f8b164d). Take out old follower, put that in.


So, as long as I use the modified magazines I should have only 10 foreign made parts, correct? I just wanted confirmation from some folks before I order and make the changes. Thanks for all the help I've gotten here.

MD_Willington
June 21, 2007, 10:07 PM
Promag also makes AK magazines, some say they work, some say they don't.

Modding the Saiga is all about subtracting Russian parts, and replacing them with American parts.

Navy87Guy
June 22, 2007, 08:22 AM
So where do your pistol grips come from?

That's a Command Arms Accessory UPG-47 Modular Pistol Grip. It comes with 6 interchangeable pieces (three palm swells, three finger grooves) that allow you to customize it. I bought mine from Area 51 Tactical (www.blackrifles.com) - great prices and fast service.

The vertical grip is a UTG Deluxe Vertical Foregrip with Pressure Pad Inserts. It has spots on either side to mount a pressure pad for a weapon light. The bottom opens up to store batteries. Installation is easy....unscrew the base, slide it on the rail, screw the base back on.It was $15 and it's every bit as good (if not better) than the $60 Tango Down grip I have on my AR. I got this at Area 51 Tactical as well.

Jim

TOU
June 22, 2007, 05:43 PM
Thank you Navy. Are they as comfortable as they look? Are they completely hard plastic or is part of it soft rubberized type polymer? They are quite a bit like the ones found on the new Walther handguns, no?

So did you do your forearms or have them done?


http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/889657/Saiga_practical.jpg

These and the Galil style of FMJMIKE are a couple of my favorites grips.

http://wm17.inbox.com/thumbs/c_a8fd8_c162b37_oJ.jpg.thumb

While the following is a great looking AK, I don't care for the ergonomics of thse grip. They are a bit small and crowded for me.

http://home.comcast.net/~f1lite/firearms/images/ak103/oa_cr.jpg

I have a TAPCO SAW grip seems pretty nice; it came with one of my .223 Saiga's (not on or converted yet.)

This is another one that I like quite a bit. (CAA Ergo)

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=10122

It's also on this .308 Saiga along with a stock I really like. (ACE, correct?)

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=11320

http://forum.saiga-12.com/uploads/monthly_02_2007/post-3965-1172150388_thumb.jpg

Decisions...decisions....

Navy87Guy
June 22, 2007, 06:19 PM
The inserts are rubberized, so they are comfortable. For me, the deep finger grooves are just in the wrong spot so I didn't use them. I am using the large palm swell and the standard finger grooves.

I had the handguard done by Devin over on Saiga Forum. He did the ventilation, contured them, added the Picatinny rail and Duracoated the whole thing. It's great work and I really like the look. Here's a link to his stuff: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=16617

He had it all done and back to me in a week.

Jim

TOU
June 22, 2007, 06:54 PM
Found'em...thx!

CAA UPG47 Modular Tactical Pistol Grip for AK47/74 (http://www.blackrifles.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=723)

http://www.commandarms.com/thumb.asp?myheight=350&mywidth=350&image=img/productImages/UPG47/upg47color.jpg


UTG Deluxe Vertical Foregrip w/Pressure Pad inserts (http://www.blackrifles.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=650)

http://www.blackrifles.com/catalog/images/rb-fgrp168-m.jpg

SSN Vet
June 22, 2007, 09:50 PM
seems to be a pretty strong consensus on the Saiga 12 forum that depending on magazine parts to meet your compliance count is dicey.....

pull your modified mag and re-insert your stock Saiga 10 round mag and you are holding an illegal rifle.

but then again, it appears that no one has ever been prosecuted for 922R non-compliance.

the Surefire mags are a grey area. If I understand correctly they start with an improted mag, modify the lock tab on the back, weld some material on the front to serve as a feed ramp and swap out the follower and spring with U.S. made equivalents.

I'm harvesting pieces and parts for my x39 russian conversion....

just need a kvar stock and I'll take the plunge.

Samuraigg
June 22, 2007, 10:10 PM
Yeah for the time being I'm putting this on hold. (for real this time).

I'm just going to stick with 10 round mags. Already have two, I might get one more. Even if SHTF, three 10 round magazines should be more than enough for me.

If I want a high capacity rifle down the road, I might get an M1 Carbine. I wont have to worry about this 922r garbage.

dstorm1911
June 22, 2007, 10:24 PM
Don't bother messin with the mags at all......

USA FCG will give ya 3 parts by itself (hammer, trigger, disconecter)
All ya gotta do to swao is remove the two axis pins and the import FCG, install the USA parts exactly as your import ones were, reinstall pins and clips and your done takes about 2 miniutes on a bad day

Gas piston super simple install once again, use a round ball dremel to cut the rivet it is countersunk on both sides so just pick one drill out the countersink then tap it out, unscrew gas piston then screw in new one install a new rivet and hammer flat on both sides then dress with a file 4 minutes and thats if I have to drill the rivet hole in the new gas piston if its already been drilled its another 2 minute swap

ya now have 10 import parts and ya need LESS than 10 so swap out your pistol grip and your legal regardless what mag ya put in the rifle.........

its not to tough guys :)

SSN Vet
June 22, 2007, 10:34 PM
actually, I believe it's "no more than ten"

you need to get 5 parts to do the conversion, but the pistol grip doesn't replace an import part....rather, it ensures you don't add an import part.

wally
June 22, 2007, 10:42 PM
but then again, it appears that no one has ever been prosecuted for 922R non-compliance.

Don't know about the facts, but if reasonable doubt has not been repealed it could be a very tough case for the prosecution to win -- "Gun came like that" Seller: "No it didn't".

Show pile of parts to jury, "which are US made?" "How could you tell?"

Seeing how they don't/can't prosecute 12 million illegal aliens, or identity fraudsters who steel less than 100K from a victim, seems about as good a civil disobedience act as smoking pot at an anti-globalization rally.

--wally.

Samuraigg
June 22, 2007, 10:49 PM
Dstorm, I was under the impression you cant swap out the trigger group with the new one without moving the entire FCG forward, ie doing a conversion. It wont fit in a stock saiga. If it was as simple as swapping out the old FCG and putting a new one in I woulda done it already.

Navy87Guy
June 22, 2007, 11:27 PM
SSNvet is right...it's no more than 10 imported parts.

Samuari wasn't planning on doing a conversion -- so he can't just swap the FCG. You could use the hammer if you wanted, but you can't use the trigger and the disconnector until you move the whole FCG forward. Depending on how you feel about playing with the BHO, it may be easier to just swap the gas piston.

I agree that counting on magazines to meet 922R compliance isn't without risk, but in this case I think it's a manageable risk.

Jim

ETA: Samurai types faster than me - -he beat me to it!

dstorm1911
June 23, 2007, 02:56 AM
yea I was overheated when I replied earlier (110 degrees here in Tucson today, it'll bake ya ridin a Harley everyday 100 miles) Sorry bout that Buildin real AKs day after day forget bout the extended trigger in the Saigas, it wouldn't be too difficult to modify a G2 trigger and I don't know why someone hasn't simply milled out a Disconector for the things.

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