[SaxonPig]

I loaded what was supposed to duplicate the original 38/44 load with 158 grain hard-cast (originals were soft) lead Keith type bullets over 11.5 grains of 2400. The book said this would deliver 1125 FPS. The test guns were a 1954 vintage S&W “Heavy Duty” (seemed appropriate) and a Colt Official Police from 1967. Both have 4” barrels.

I actually loaded two versions of ammo. Same bullet and charge, but one was crimped with the heavy roll crimp advocated by Elmer Keith for heavy loads and the other batch featured a much lighter taper crimp. I wanted to see if any difference in velocity could be detected and if the bullets would jump forward under recoil without the heavy crimp.

In the Smith the heavy crimp load averaged 1092 FPS. It ran 1143 from the Colt. Hmmm… The taper crimped ammo clocked 1037 from the Smith and 1044 from the Colt.

Interesting.

The heavy crimp produced 55 FPS more from the Smith and 99 FPS more in the Colt. I don’t know why the two guns were virtually identical in performance with the taper crimp load but the Colt was much higher in velocity with the heavy crimp rounds. I have never done such a side by side comparison before so now I will have to try other guns to see if this is a fluke or if Colts produce higher velocities. I would have thought the S&W would be a tad higher due to the Colt’s tighter bore but that’s not what happened.

I’d say this load does pretty much duplicate the old Super Police load. Recoil was fairly stout but easily controlled but then these are big revolvers. I would not be afraid to shoot this ammo in a K or even a J frame revolver but I am sure it will accelerate the wear on a lighter gun compared to current factory fodder. The late Jeff Cooper wrote of loading 160s to 1,000 FPS from a 2” Model 60 and that load was likely similar to this one.

After shooting I detected no sign of leading in either gun. A few unburned powder flakes but no leading. This would not have been the case with a softer bullet.

The test guns: Check out those custom stocks on the Colt! Most of the checkering was sanded off and “Cliff 1937” was crudely engraved at the top on the left along with some ivory inlays of diamonds and crossed lines. I have no idea what it means. I only paid $165 for the gun and although I have other stocks that would fit, I figure these have with the gun a long time and sometimes I like funky.

http://www.fototime.com/0039AE7A86CBEA3/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/A57E03BC42BB8AE/standard.jpg

[Cosmoline]

Interesting. Is that in the so called .38 +p+ range?

[Peter M. Eick]

Nice work. I was out shooting my 34 and 39 Heavy Duties with some hot reloads this weekend. I agree they are very controllable out of the big heavy duties and a lot of fun to shoot.

Cosmoline, I would have called them "factory 357 Magnum" power levels out of a 4" tube.

:)

By the way, where did they hit relative to point of aim?

[SaxonPig]

I wouldn't call them 357s by any stretch. The factory 357s of my youth clocked 1400+ and Lord did they ever lead the bore! Now the factory 357s mostly run a wimpy and toned-down 1250 or so. Pathetic. I would call a 158/1100 a stout 38 Special load. Not max, but stout.

[Will5A1]

Thanks for the interesting test SP - I assume you are using current 2400 and didn't have a can stashed from way back when. I wish I could find a reasonably priced HD, yours looks just right (I wouldn't be afraid to shoot it), had one years ago and let it go in a trade.

[Peter M. Eick]

Saxonpig, You are correct that they are not the powerhouses of old, but it is very rare (ok I have never seen one) non-boutique factory 38 special that does 1100 with a 158 out of a 4" barrel. Now 730, 780 or even 850 (on a good day with a tail wind) maybe, but not 1100.

Out of my 4" 357 mag, a lot of factory ammo does not do much better then 1150 give or take with a 158.

While we could twist this post off into another direction if we all want to, I contend that the 357/38 cartridges have all been wimped down one power level in the last 50 years or so. Thus the 158's at 1550 (old 357 Mag out of an 8 3/4" Registered) are now obtainable only from the 357 Max's. The old 38/44's at 1150 to 1200 out of the 6.5" outdoorsman's and 5" heavy duty's are now equal to the 357 Magnums of today. The old standby of 5 grns of Unique with a 158 giving 1000 fps are now gone the way of the dodo's. The old 38S&W loads of 750 to 800 fps are now the 38 special loads.

Sigh......

[AJD]

The only factory ammo that I know of that pushes the .357 magnum at all would be Fiocchi 142 gr at 1420 FPS, Seller and Belliot 158 gr at 1394 FPS and the best would be the Wolf Gold .357 Magnum 158 gr at a very nice 1607 FPS.

I always shake my head when people talk about the 9mm "almost" duplicating the .357 Magnum's performance....if only some people knew what the .357 Magnum is easily capable of.

I guess that might be one reason why the 9mm is so popular today, its one of the few rounds that actually gets loaded close to its max capabilities while the other cartridges are loaded to wimp standards.

[tipoc]

Saxon Pig,

That's a set of crossed pool cues on the Colt along with the watchamacallum that you chalk the tip of the cue with.

Drop by here www.sixguns.com and under the headin "The Shooting Range" is Taffin's reloading of the 38 HD round and a few others. May be of some help.

tipoc

[SaxonPig]

I thought the design was maybe crossed pool cues but also thought it might just be my imagination.

[Cosmoline]

While we could twist this post off into another direction if we all want to, I contend that the 357/38 cartridges have all been wimped down one power level in the last 50 years or so.

There's something to this, which is one reason I have no hesitation loading the so-called "+p's" in older .38 specials.

[GRIZ22]

The late Jeff Cooper wrote of loading 160s to 1,000 FPS from a 2” Model 60 and that load was likely similar to this one.


Cooper also said these 1000 fps loads w/a 160 gr in a j frame would shoot it loose in 500 rounds or so.

[SaxonPig]

"Would" means he was predicting which means he was guessing. I beleve he was mistaken on this. Cooper didn't have much love for or faith in revolvers and used them very seldom. The 60 was his wife's purse gun and likely never fired 500 rounds in its life..

[wcwhitey]

Good research Saxon, thanks for sharing. I was wondering how the primers looked or any other signs of pressure. I also find it a shame how everything got downloaded over the years, makes true comparisons difficult. The .357 as currently loaded by most factories is Magnum in name only, goes for .44 as well.
Again, good work, I am going to give those rounds a try in my Rossi carbine and see how they perform. Bill

[tipoc]

Saxon,

Last year some time Brian Pearce had an article in Handloading Mag. on the 38/44 if you don't have that handy I can maybe dig it up for you and send you a copy. It was a useful piece and I kept it.

tipoc

[SaxonPig]

Absolutely no signs of excessive pressure. Primers looked OK and when ejecting the cases they would sometimes fall out by gravity so no sticking at all.

[FerFAL]

Hi SaxonPig, not long ago I bought a “Policia Federal” (Argentine Police) Colt Police Positive Special in 38 Special made in 1926.
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8417/dsc01965lz6.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8099/dsc01967gm6.jpg
The gun shoots very well, has been reblued but the fit is very good and there is no vertical play when trying to rattle or move the cylinder-crane, something that surprised me a bit since even new revolvers, including S&W have “some“ degree of play/looseness.
The gun also had the barrel cut down to 3” and to my surprise I found that the cylinder had been modified to fit 357 magnum rounds.
What’s your opinion on this?
Where these cops completely out of their minds or did they know something I dont?
I know that this gun saw very little 357 ( if any at all) because of the general like new condition ( apart from the refinish, probably because of extensive holster wear rather than actual firing), no wear or looseness is found anywhere.
According to what I’ve heard, a 125 gr. projectile at 1300 feet (average 124gr. 357 magnum load) shouldn’t hurt the Colt D frame, other than cause extensive wear. No, I’m not thinking about shooting magnums on my Police Positive, I’ll stick to normal loads for practice and +P 38 for defense, but I’m still curious.

FerFAL

[SaxonPig]

I would not under any circumstance fire 357s from a Police Positive Special made in 1926. Tempering of metal was an inexact science until around 1930 (bad steel maybe doomed the Titanic as poorly tempered hull plates split when she hit the ice) so any guns I have made before that date get gallery loads. Also, the PPS was never intended for Magnum ammo. I'm surprised the cylinder is long enough.

My gut feeling is that current factory +P (which I don't consider to be hot) would likely be OK in your gun, but I think I would avoid it just to ease my mind. I don't trust the metal they made in the 1920s and earlier. Recall all those 1903s and 1917s that we aren't supposed to shoot because of bad tempering in the receivers?