.380 Auto for self defense


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RancidSumo
June 25, 2007, 06:29 PM
My dad lives in Denver and has had a few scary instances downtown late at night. His only gun that is small enough to carry is his little 3" .380 with a 7 round magazine. Would this be a good gun for self defense or would you recomend getting something bigger?

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19-3Ben
June 25, 2007, 06:39 PM
If it's a gun he already has, has he shot it a decent amount? is he comfortable with it? Can he shoot it accurately? If he needs to start carrying soon, it's more important that it be a gun he can use effectively than what caliber it shoots. I'd take a .380 I am familiar with over a 10mm that I haven't trained with much any day.

usp9
June 25, 2007, 07:02 PM
Is the .380 acp lethal?


Yes.

KevininPa
June 25, 2007, 07:27 PM
I have three carriers and they are all .380. I'm quite comfortable carrying them.


Kevin in Pa

bpisler
June 25, 2007, 07:49 PM
Pick decent ammo that shoots well and hope
for the best,380's aren't the best stoppers
but they are better than nothing at all.

Peter M. Eick
June 25, 2007, 09:04 PM
Can he hit what he wants with it?
Is he accurate?
Is it reliable?
Does He have confidence in it?

If so don't worry about it and carry on. I trust my 380 because I can shoot it, I can hit with it and I don't worry about needing more then 7 shots most of the time. In general I carry a 9mm PSP, but sometimes that is just too big for routine carry.

rdaines
June 25, 2007, 09:47 PM
Others have pretty much said it all. The .380 is a good defensive round and usually find a home in pocket type pistols (Walther ppk among others). Familiarity with the weapon and how it shoots is a plus, just buy quality HP ammo.

Tomcat47
June 25, 2007, 09:50 PM
Wonderful CCW....I carry Taurus PT58HC plus.....and so does my wife:)

SAG0282
June 25, 2007, 10:28 PM
Not perfect, but provided it's reliable and easy to shoot accurately it will more than do the job.

ArchAngelCD
June 26, 2007, 01:02 AM
Have your dad load his .380 up with ammo that shoots reliable in his pistol every time and he's good to go. There are many good factory rounds available for the .380 which will do a good job if needed. I like Winchester Silvertips in my .32 Auto.

MICHAEL T
June 26, 2007, 01:34 AM
I carried a 380 PPK/S for years.

Mad Magyar
June 26, 2007, 08:40 AM
I recall a popular gun "rag" writer stating: "If you are carrying anything less than a 9mm you are not well-armed".
He's no longer popular and neither was I when I brought it up on a forum...Total BS....Sir: Your dad will be okay with the previous advice from others....:)

scurtis_34471
June 26, 2007, 09:47 AM
I've carried my .380 many times when I didn't want to bring my full-size XD-40 with me. Its true that .380 is not the best stopper, but that doesn't bother me much. The gun is accurate and controllable to the point that I can put 9 rounds through the 3" ring in under 3 seconds. I figure 1 round may not stop a bad guy, but 9 certainly will.

ball3006
June 26, 2007, 02:42 PM
feeling holes being punched into his body. I don't think the caliber is something he is going to sluff off because it is a small caliber bullet.......chris3

MrAcheson
June 26, 2007, 02:58 PM
Accuracy, portability, and reliability all beat caliber in terms of effectiveness. You want a gun you can shoots and shoots well and that you have access to when you need it. Once you have those things a bigger or better bullet is nice.

full metal
June 26, 2007, 05:30 PM
with a .380 ACP he should train to reload quikly and carry extra clip's.
or get a .45 ACP all you need for multi-atackers is one clip.

full metal
June 26, 2007, 05:31 PM
with a .380 ACP he should train to reload quikly and carry extra clip's.
or get a .45 ACP all you need is one shot.

Soybomb
June 26, 2007, 09:47 PM
9mm would be better, but if he won't carry it the .380 is better.

get a .45 ACP all you need is one shot.
I hope thats sarcasm :D

JLStorm
June 26, 2007, 10:19 PM
Its better than a poke with a sharp stick thats for sure. It wouldnt be most peoples first choice for a carry gun unless they lack strength or training to handle something with more stopping power, but if he already owns it and is proficient with it, its something to start with.

the naked prophet
June 26, 2007, 10:45 PM
Personally, I prefer to use FMJ when I carry a .380 for defense. Why?

I think that in terms of ammo performance, penetration is key - whereas reliable function is a given and expansion is a plus but not necessary. If a cartridge does not penetrate 12 inches in ballistic gelatin, I don't trust it to penetrate deep enough to reach vitals in a non-optimal shot (through an arm before it reaches the torso, or sideways through the torso - anything but an unobstructed frontal shot). Expansion is great, but not at the cost of penetration. You can get a .45 to expand to 1.0 inch and still penetrate 12 inches. You can get a 9mm +P to expand to 0.65 inch and still penetrate 12 inches. You can get a .38 special +P to expand to 0.50 inch and still penetrate 12 inches. You cannot get a .380 to expand at all and still penetrate 12 inches.

If you still want expansion, you could carry JHP alternating with FMJ. If you've got two shots in the center of mass, you've got all your bases covered - but how many shootings have you heard of when the good guy got two shots COM?

jaholder1971
June 26, 2007, 11:13 PM
I carry an older AMT Backup whenever the need arise.

As long as the piece is 100 percent reliable with the ammo has carries in it (and several hundred rounds of it fired through for safe measure) and he can hit what he aims at his .380 will work fine.

I carry an older AMT backup .380 at times with a couple clips to spare. I carry Black Hills loads as they use XTP bullets and they feed like ball through mine, YMMV. Marshall and Sanow have plenty of examples of .380 JHP's expanding on real people with plenty of penetration.

Newton
June 26, 2007, 11:55 PM
Suggest your Dad goes with the new Corbon DPX load for carry, it has redefined the .380 as a viable SD cartridge IMO.

RancidSumo
June 27, 2007, 12:09 AM
9mm would be better, but if he won't carry it the .380 is better

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, don't sugest that to him! He absolutly hates the
9mm.

Tomcat47
June 27, 2007, 12:32 AM
Quote!

with a .380 ACP he should train to reload quikly and carry extra clip's.
or get a .45 ACP all you need for multi-atackers is one clip.


Or get a PT58......19 rounds + 1 :neener:.........also with the .45 and mutiple attackers be sure when you shoot them no innocent victims are behind them!......:eek:

40 shots rang out!....40 people fell!.......Patty and the killer missed each other.....but they shot that town to hell! :uhoh:

obxned
June 27, 2007, 01:16 AM
It is not a good 1-shot stopper, but ammo is cheap and it's a pretty effective 3- or 4- or 5-shot stopper.

Cannonball888
June 27, 2007, 08:40 AM
You cannot get a .380 to expand at all and still penetrate 12 inches.

Correct. This is why the general consensus is that any handgun below 9mm or .38 Spl should use FMJ only.

rdaines
June 27, 2007, 08:48 AM
OK, so I'll just throw away all of my Federal Hydra Shok and Remington Golden Saber .380 ammo and replace it with target ammo...don't think so.

Ghostrider_23
June 27, 2007, 10:27 AM
It many all about shot placement. One shot into a vitual organ and that's all it takes. Overcoming or learning how to work with fear, anxiety and the adrenaline rush should be on his and your mind more than caliber. Have your father spend some money to take some combat or selfdefense classes that will show him how to use his firearm effectively and PRACTICE. That is money worth spending.

wnycollector
June 27, 2007, 10:33 AM
I carry a russian Mak in 9x18 (ballistically pretty similar to the .380) and I dont feel undergunned. I belive its all about bullet placement and comfort with your firearm.

scurtis_34471
June 27, 2007, 11:30 AM
It is not a good 1-shot stopper, but ammo is cheap and it's a pretty effective 3- or 4- or 5-shot stopper.

Actually, the ammo is not cheap. I pay about as much for .380 as I do for .40 S&W.

fletcher
June 27, 2007, 11:47 AM
If he can shoot it and carry it, it's good. .380 is enough.


I carry a russian Mak in 9x18 (ballistically pretty similar to the .380) and I dont feel undergunned. I belive its all about bullet placement and comfort with your firearm.

+1



with a .380 ACP he should train to reload quikly and carry extra clip's.
or get a .45 ACP all you need is one shot.

Either sarcasm, or wow.

erikd65
June 27, 2007, 12:01 PM
I just picked up a keltec P-3AT for carry. All I have to say is I sure would not want to be shot with one :)

My Buddy carries a Beretta .380 ALL the time (And he has 2 Beretta 9mm's). he prefers the .380 because.... his shot placement is superb with it.

The key is...

Can he shot good with it? (My #1 thing... shot placement)

Is it relaiable?

Does he have confidence in his shooting abilities with it and with the hardware itself?

I don't buy into to much of the bullet penetration and expansion game to much. If I can put the bullet where it needs to go, then my job is done.

Haycreek
June 27, 2007, 12:04 PM
The Czek army officers carried the CZ 82 as a side arm for years. From low ready, I can hit my target with several rounds faster and more accurate than with a Glock or 1911 . That says a lot for "shootability" I really like the CZ 83, ----- and 1911s -------- And Glocks -------- And 3rd generation S&W autos. ------and S&W revolvers. :)

the naked prophet
June 27, 2007, 02:31 PM
Shot placement is important - and the P3AT trigger is very nice for such a small gun. The sights (what little there are) work well for me.

http://web.umr.edu/~ikellogg/P3AT-7yards.jpg

MrAcheson
June 27, 2007, 03:08 PM
with a .380 ACP he should train to reload quikly and carry extra clip's.
or get a .45 ACP all you need is one shot.:rolleyes: Seriously, what if the guy's moving and you miss? Well I have to hit the guy. So if you shoot him in the arm or leg? Well one good shot then. Getting the point yet? It's all about shot placement anyway.

If you're carrying an automatic, you should always have a second clip. Always. Doesn't matter what caliber you're carrying. The magazine is a single point of failure for the gun and it is very easy to carry a second.
You can get a .45 to expand to 1.0 inch and still penetrate 12 inches. You can get a 9mm +P to expand to 0.65 inch and still penetrate 12 inches. You can get a .38 special +P to expand to 0.50 inch and still penetrate 12 inches.I've never seen those kind of expansion numbers from .45acp JHPs. Generally expansion is more like .65 to .75. 9mm and .38 special is around .55 to .65. But with .380 you're looking at .45 and maybe 10 to 12 inches of penetration.

But honestly, that's a good amount of penetration. When you look at most fighting knives and bayonets, you're looking at 7 inch blades. You just have to stick those 7 inches in the right place.

HerrWolfe
June 27, 2007, 03:21 PM
I normally carry; if my expected locations are reasonably secure and I need to be quite discreet, I carry a .380. However, if there is more than remote chance that I will be in a bad area of town, shopping center parking lots etc after dark, I will instead carry a .45, which is more comfortable due to a high riding holster.

cookekdjr
June 27, 2007, 04:05 PM
The thing about 380 is that so many great carry guns are chambered for it. Its not a great stopper but the caliber lends itself to alot of great platforms (p232, bersa thunder, beretta 85, etc).

FerFAL
June 27, 2007, 04:09 PM
Tell your dad to get some premium JHP ( I like Gold Dot or Corbon), practice frequently and be prepared to shoot more than once if needed. 380 may not be the best % one shot stopper, but a couple more rounds are easily launched from a 380, pretty fast and accurately too.

FerFAL

ZeSpectre
June 27, 2007, 05:01 PM
A strong second on the cor-bon dpx ammo. Try it in the gun and if it feeds well then use it as carry ammo. It's pretty damn punchy for .380 Auto!

PhillyGlocker
June 27, 2007, 07:52 PM
Contrary to stopping power, if you pull a .380 on someone, they darn sure aren't going to stand around and volunteer to get shot with it. Any bullet has the potential to be lethal. I would have no problem carrying a .380. It's rare that you would get some nut who wants to act like Superman after you put 4 rounds of .380 in his gut.

shc1
June 27, 2007, 10:10 PM
For what's worth I've loaded up to 124 grain bullets in .380. If that helps...

jaholder1971
June 28, 2007, 12:07 AM
Quote:
You cannot get a .380 to expand at all and still penetrate 12 inches.
Correct. This is why the general consensus is that any handgun below 9mm or .38 Spl should use FMJ only.

Using this criteria, I guess these loads are faulty for self defense then?

In 9mm

Win 127gr. Black Talon
Federal 135 gr. Personal defense
Federal Expanding FMJ
Glaser Safety Slug +P
Speer 124 gr. GDHP +P

.38 Special

124 Speer GDHP +P barely makes 12.0"
129 Federal Hydra-Shok +P
110 +P+ Treasury load
130 Win JHP +P

All these loads expand and fail to penetrate 12" per Brassfetcher's tests.

RancidSumo
June 28, 2007, 12:48 AM
Thanks for all the replies.

ArchAngelCD
June 28, 2007, 12:52 AM
It's unreal how many times in this thread someone said the .380 isn't a good stopper. WELL, no caliber is a good stopper if you don't hit something important with the possible exception of the .357 Magnum. You have to hit what you aim at or caliber means nothing. I'm tired of reading this regurgitated junk.

Also, like I said back on the first page, get some good SD ammo that shoots well in your pistol. Everyone telling you what to use is worthless unless that ammo is reliable in YOUR PISTOL.

wnycollector
June 28, 2007, 08:53 AM
+1 on the reliability issue. That more than anything is why I carry my mak. I know there are LOTS of stories about mak torture test, but I decided to try out a simple test. I purchased a case of wolf FMJ ammo in april I just finished shooting it in early june. I didnt clean the pistol from start to finish. No fte's, ftf's or any type of hiccup. 1000 trigger pulls, 1000 bangs! not bad for a sub $200 pistol. I have a case of silver bear JHP's on order and I will do the same thing over the summer!

Hokkmike
June 28, 2007, 09:00 AM
I like it. Is something bigger better. Probably, yes.

the naked prophet
June 28, 2007, 09:26 AM
Using this criteria, I guess these loads are faulty for self defense then?

In 9mm

Win 127gr. Black Talon
Federal 135 gr. Personal defense
Federal Expanding FMJ
Glaser Safety Slug +P
Speer 124 gr. GDHP +P

.38 Special

124 Speer GDHP +P barely makes 12.0"
129 Federal Hydra-Shok +P
110 +P+ Treasury load
130 Win JHP +P

All these loads expand and fail to penetrate 12" per Brassfetcher's tests.

Yes.

They may be sufficient for an unobstructed frontal chest shot, but more frequently a shot must pass through an arm (an aggressor's arms are often in front of his chest - either holding a gun or raising his arms to strike) before it reaches the chest. Or you're shooting at an odd angle, which requires more penetration to hit anything vital (as opposed to skin, fat, and nonvital muscle).

A .45 will give you more leeway in ammunition selection, but there are still plenty of 9mm and even .38 loads which will both expand and penetrate over 12 inches.

And no, I don't think there are many .45 loads which will expand to 1 inch, I was just throwing out numbers to illustrate that the smaller caliber you get, the less room you have for expansion while still getting sufficient penetration.

KevininPa
June 28, 2007, 10:33 AM
shc1, how do those 124's work for you? Myself and a buddy are accumulating all the gear needed for reloading and I shoot .380's regularly. Was planning on trying a heavier round. What are you shooting them out of, was there any drop compared to a lighter round, etc?


Kevin in Pa

mavracer
June 28, 2007, 12:37 PM
here naked I'll save you


All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.
DoubleTap 10mm
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02":what:
DoubleTap .45ACP
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95":what:

I still cary a seecamp at times when somthing bigger would be unpractical

SniperStraz
June 28, 2007, 01:02 PM
MrAcheson said: But honestly, that's a good amount of penetration. When you look at most fighting knives and bayonets, you're looking at 7 inch blades. You just have to stick those 7 inches in the right place.

When they say 12-18 inches in balistic gelatin they don't expect 12-18 inches on a human body. 7 inches is fine for a knife but for a bullet the measurement in inches tells them how much force and energy is being expended as well not just penetration.

Dirty Bob
June 28, 2007, 02:27 PM
I believe strongly that the user is more important than the tool. If your dad is able to shoot accurately and fairly quickly with a .380, he'll be much better off than most people. What you can do with it is much more important than the gun itself, provided it's in a reasonable caliber (.380 and .38 Special are my personal minimum calibers) and is reliable.

Congratulate him on a fine choice, buy him a few boxes of practice ammo, and take him shooting! :D

Regards,
Dirty Bob

shc1
June 28, 2007, 08:10 PM
Kevin in Pa
The main reason I was tinkering with larger bullets was to reduce the recoil.
(hands get sore easy)
The 124 grain takes up some of the empty space where powder would normally be.
The downside, longer bullets wear out the brass much faster.

Whoops, CZ-83

Dr.Rob
June 28, 2007, 10:46 PM
What KIND of .380?

I'm not real keen on HP's in a 380 either, though I know for a fact the 90gr Hydra Shock is a very destructive cartridge, it's not a great penetrator, esp. if it hits bone.

clone
June 29, 2007, 08:03 PM
if hes gota go 380 then i would recommend useing fmj. penetration is the key. ;)

KevininPa
June 29, 2007, 11:50 PM
..........Thanks for the info. I have a CZ83 myself! I use that for winter carry or for areas that I'd rather not be since it packs a few extra rounds. Normally I stick to a Sig 232. I find they both have the same pointability.


Kevin in Pa

Keoni
June 30, 2007, 12:11 AM
Have a Pony & P3AT, only carry as BUG or when unable to be armed.:)
Don't know what pistol he has, but there are more suitable calibers available that are as easy to conceal in a belt holster as a lot of .380's. Examples being P9 Kahr, PT745 Taurus, Glock 36 and Kimber or Springfield Compact Lightweight.

RustyHammer
June 30, 2007, 09:46 AM
It won't knock them off their feet,
but a properly placed shot will do it's job.

It's all about gun control: "Gun control
is hitting what you're aiming at!"

Lock and load,

Rusty

smee781
July 1, 2008, 12:43 PM
A good 380 in the pocket is better that a 45 in the safe or left in the truck! I don't know about yall but I like to stagger my rounds. Ball, hollow point, ball, hollow point..and so on. If the gun functions well with the chosen ammo then you have nothing to fear. 45 this and 45 that, what ever! its all about what you shoot well and if its a 380 then go for it, it's you have to carry the gun not anyone else!

K5mitch
July 1, 2008, 12:50 PM
A good 380 in the pocket is better that a 45 in the safe or left in the truck!

I'll second that. I have two pistols, a fullsize 1911 and a FEG AP in .32. I carry the .32 more than the 1911, it fits in my pocket and doesn't weigh as much. Before I got the 32 the only time I would carry the 1911 is when I thought I might be in a sour situation (meeting buyers off craigslist ads, etc.). Now that I have the 32, it goes everywhere. I'll probably try to find a similar size in a slightly larger caliber, but I agree that a .380 in the pocket is better than a .45 left at home!

smirnoff a
July 1, 2008, 01:14 PM
I like 380 and have several pistols for it. Its not a caliber to get into a gun battle with, but perfectly fine for self-defence.

jocko
July 1, 2008, 01:43 PM
carry my pm9 99%of the time the other 1% will be my 380

benzuncle
July 1, 2008, 08:13 PM
A .380 will work fine for defense. Is it a stopper? Is a 44 magnum that hits the BG in the pinkie finger a stopper? Methinks not. Having said that - No one wants to leak; a .380 will cause them to leak. A Remington 102gr Golden Saber will penetrate 8in. and expand to between .57 and .59in. I carry a 380 in my pocket loaded with Golden Sabers or a 45ACP. Gee, which would I rather have on me when the SHTF? That's a no brainer. But I bought the 380 and have carried it aplenty when I couldn't hide my 45's. But no firearm is worth a poop if you don't practice with it.

ZeSpectre
July 1, 2008, 08:26 PM
Anybody bother to notice that this thread is a year old?

Don357
July 1, 2008, 09:41 PM
I can just hear all those people who think that the "ONLY" good defence round is a .45. Another thread on this page has some people putting down 9mm's. All a .380 is, is a 9x17mm. The difference between it and a 9x19 is like the difference between a .38spl and a .357mag. Besides, it's really in accurate shot placement anyway.

Orion8472
July 2, 2008, 09:36 AM
It may be a year old, but it is no less valid today.

I will be carrying my .380 Colt Pony Clone when I get my CCW. I'm not very big, and it hides very well, and as was said above, . . . no one wants to leak. Good line!

ambidextrous1
July 2, 2008, 10:08 AM
Two words: SHOT PLACEMENT!!!

Orion8472
July 2, 2008, 10:54 AM
Agreed. . . . . .and the .380 I have is very accurate!

fletcher
July 2, 2008, 11:39 AM
I just find it funny that it seems more people doubt 9mm in ammo-fight threads than .380 :p

Orion8472
July 2, 2008, 11:54 AM
Oh, I'd rather HAVE a 9mm over a .380, but I don't want to buy a small 9mm auto when I can use my small .380 instead, . . . . and in most situations, a .22lr would "be enough". Again the "no one wants to leak" thing.

Defensory
July 2, 2008, 06:57 PM
"Anything distinctly smaller—such as the .380 Auto pistol caliber, which is literally a "9mm Short"—too often fails to make the cut. I've run across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will, historically, end lethal assaults more quickly."

--Massad Ayoob

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob110.html

MedWheeler
July 2, 2008, 07:31 PM
If he wants to carry reloads, suggest magazines instead of clips. Clips are a PITA to reload in a SHTF situation..!:D

abarth
July 3, 2008, 12:34 AM
Anybody bother to notice that this thread is a year old?

Not only is a year old, but it ended on June 30th 07 and restarted on July 1st 08. Kind of cool.
There are many who say 380 is not enough, there are also many who think that 9mm is not enough, and there are many argue that no hand gun is sufficient to deliver the one shot stopping power. I carry a 380acp and hope never have to find out if it is good enough as a defend round.
Don't you guys wish open carry is more common, so we can pack something as big as possible, then we will never have this discussion. I will have my RPG7 on my back everywhere I go.;)

Clean97GTI
July 3, 2008, 01:27 AM
I carry a Makarov chambered in .380 and have never felt undergunned. After seeing a .380 tear through a fiberglass shower, the wallboard and insulation behind that, 10' of open space, another bit of wallboard and insulation and left a big gaping hole on an exterior stucco wall...I'm a believer in its ability to stop a man. If the first shot doesn't do it, I can always fire again.

Cuda
July 3, 2008, 01:50 AM
The 380 advice you've received is very good.. But make sure he checks the denver gun laws they're a bit more picky than the rest of Colorado..

C

mr.trooper
July 3, 2008, 02:18 AM
He is FINE with the 380.

I carry a P-22 quite often. Why? because I can carry it all day and not notice. My 1911 and CZ-75 weight to much carry all day, and are a huge PITA to conceal in the summer.

Flopsy
July 3, 2008, 11:46 AM
I'm sorry Massad, but I have a tough time swallowing that.

Shooting after shooting! In these shootings after shootings, the victim shot a violent aggressor with a 380 and it "did little" to stop him immediately. Without evidence to support that claim, it's just another piece of "internet wisdom."

And what, exactly, do you mean by "run across"? Heard about? Investigated? Saw on the news?

I have no doubt that a volley of Golden Sabers will stop the aggressor adequately.

Ghostrider_23
July 3, 2008, 12:08 PM
I am with Flopsy on this issue. The 380 acp round at the legal distance to respond with deadly force is more than suitable.

Another thought that EVERYONE needs to think about is, are you really only going to fire once :what: when the need to respond to defend your life comes into play????????????????? Are you kidding me???????? No I am not talking about firing 10 rounds into someone, but I think 2-3 rounds has been proven to be accurate in real defense incounters. (Who ever heard of 1 stop shots anyway) (They are out there, but that's because the person has either passed or has fled the scene)

Lastly, Bufflo Bore has some great 380+P ammo out that is sure to be great. Although I probly would HATE to have to fire it from a Kel-Tec.
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#380

Remember Reagan almost died from a 22lr and Hitler did die from a 32acp to the head.

After all of this, I hope and most likely you'll never as a citizen never have to defend your life on the streets, but stay perpared is your best defense. Meaning at least show up with a gun to a gun fight. lol

Orion8472
July 3, 2008, 12:24 PM
That has been my feelings as of late, Ghostrider. My Colt Pony clone holds six .380 rounds and that should be plenty to defend my life should a sudden need arise. It won't be a combat situation where I would need a 16 round magazine, and two more backup magazines. And at close range, I'm sure my Golden Sabers will do the job, . . . . . in the unlikely event that I will even ever have to use it. It will be there in a "last resort" situation.

Defensory
July 3, 2008, 02:50 PM
Posted by Ghostrider 23:
I am with Flopsy on this issue. The 380 acp round at the legal distance to respond with deadly force is more than suitable.

Then how come not a single law enforcement agency (LEA) in the country uses it as their primary duty cartridge? The 9mm is considerably more potent than the .380, yet in the last couple decades a substantial number of LEA's have even abandoned the 9 in favor of the still more powerful .40 S&W.

The .380 has been completely rejected by American law enforcement. European LEA's replaced the .380 with 9mm's decades ago.

Another thought that EVERYONE needs to think about is, are you really only going to fire once when the need to respond to defend your life comes into play????????????????? Are you kidding me???????? No I am not talking about firing 10 rounds into someone, but I think 2-3 rounds has been proven to be accurate in real defense incounters. (Who ever heard of 1 stop shots anyway) (They are out there, but that's because the person has either passed or has fled the scene)

The average self-defense encounter occurs at about a distance of 21 feet or less. Many top police and civilian firearms instructors around the country have proven in actual demonstrations, that most people carrying guns can't even draw their weapon in time to stop a determined aggressor who makes a charge from that distance or less.

So if your life is ever on the line in a self-defense situation, you might be lucky to get off even one shot. There are plenty of documented cases over the years where homeowners were shot with their own guns, because they weren't able to get off a single round before being rushed and overpowered by their attacker(s).

Lastly, Bufflo Bore has some great 380+P ammo out that is sure to be great. Although I probly would HATE to have to fire it from a Kel-Tec.

Please show us some law enforcement documented cases where the Buffalo Bore ammo has made successful immediate stops on attackers. Just because it has a "cool" sounding name doesn't mean it's "sure to be great". Before you bet your life on it, you better have some real world evidence to back up your choice.

Remember Reagan almost died from a 22lr and Hitler did die from a 32acp to the head.

Hitler placed the gun to his head and pulled the trigger. At that close of range, a good pellet gun could've killed him. That does nothing to "prove" that the .32 is an adequate man stopper at a typical self-defense range of 21 feet.

Neither Reagan nor the Secret Service were aware he was even hit until he was safely in his car. With Secret Service agents around him, he was able to make it to his car under his own power after being shot. So the .22LR failed to stop him.

Handgun rounds are judged by their ability to incapacitate a person immediately. None are perfect, but some are definitely better than others. A .45 ACP or 9mm are MUCH better man stoppers than a .380 or .22.

After all of this, I hope and most likely you'll never as a citizen never have to defend your life on the streets, but stay perpared is your best defense. Meaning at least show up with a gun to a gun fight. lol

If you show up to a gunfight with determined aggressors with a .380, you will be POORLY prepared.

smirnoff a
July 3, 2008, 03:06 PM
I agree that 380 is not a round for a gun fight, but I am comfortable with it for self defence. It is true that european LE agencies replaced 380s with the higher caliber guns, but the main purpose of LE agencies is not a self defence either - they do participate in the gun fights and face more powerful guns with hight capacity magazines.

Some people preffer to carry the largers caliber they can with the largest magazine capacity and spares. That mentality is suatable if you want plan to face an army every time your leave your house, but my philosophy is different. I carry different guns for different occasions: in the woods 380 would not do it, but for the casual daily carry in the city, 380 fits the purpose.

Ghostrider_23
July 3, 2008, 03:19 PM
Defensory

LEA: 1 have the ability to carry open, civilian have to choose to legally conceal and format to weight and size.
2 Are in the line of danger everyday, which I would think permits them to carry a better caliber. (Why not 45acp then back to your arguement)
3 You need to go back and read your states CCW response and responsibility to use deadly force. Which is 10 feet or less.
4 It's 12 feet not 21 feet that an average person is not able to draw from a holster and fire a shot.
5 No one plans or I at least hopes not to get into a gun fight, but how many times do we all run out the door without some form of protection??
6 BB 380 +P round is new and I nor anyone else has any data on this round.
7 Would you volunteer to allow someone to shoot you center mass with a 380. Please feel free to let us know so we can see just how ineffective the 380 round really is. (you can run at 21 feet if you'd like)

Need a plane ticket??????

Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2008, 03:37 PM
I don't carry a .380 because I don't want to get into reloading another cartridge. But other than that, a .380 ought to be adequate for 99% of defensive uses (remembering that in 90%+ of defensive uses of a handgun, no shots are fired.)

On the other hand, since I already have 3 M1911s, that's what I carry.

rcmodel
July 3, 2008, 03:43 PM
While doing yard work yesterday, I had a homeless guy walk off the street and into the neighbors open garage.

He was carrying an aluminum baseball bat.

I was carrying a Kel-Tec P3AT and a cell phone.

I felt way much better armed then him when I yelled at him to get the hell out of there!

rcmodel

Defensory
July 3, 2008, 04:24 PM
LEA: 1 have the ability to carry open, civilian have to choose to legally conceal and format to weight and size.

The 9mm is a significantly more powerful round than the .380, and there's virtually no difference in size and weight amongst the "pocket" models intended for concealed carry. Because of their blowback design, the .380's recoil is no lighter. Plus the fact that .380 ammo is noticeably more expensive than 9mm.

All of which means there's no intelligent reason to carry the .380 for self-defense.

Some U.S. and European LEO's , as well as LEO and civilian handgun instructors, refer to the .380 disparagingly as the "poodle shooter" or "pea shooter".

I'll take their word, as well as that of internationally renown defensive handgun experts like Massad Ayoob, over that of internet "experts" who make the false claim the .380 is a "reliable" manstopper.

2 Are in the line of danger everyday, which I would think permits them to carry a better caliber. (Why not 45acp then back to your arguement)

But they're not involved in shootouts every day. The average LEO will go his entire career without being involved in a shooting situation. Just like LEO's, I carry a sufficient round for what MIGHT happen.

It's common sense to be prepared with a round that will get the job done, which means nothing smaller than a 9mm in semi-autos, and a .38 Special in revolvers. The 9 and .38 are considered the BARE MINIMUM in self-defense use, by the vast majority of LEO and civilian handgun instructors.

3 You need to go back and read your states CCW response and responsibility to use deadly force. Which is 10 feet or less.

You need to worry about the law in your state, and let me worry about the law in mine.

In my state, you can use deadly force at up to 21 feet. Even more if somebody happens to be aiming a gun or other deadly projectile firing weapon at you. There's also no duty to retreat while in your home in my state.

4 It's 12 feet not 21 feet that an average person is not able to draw from a holster and fire a shot.

As usual, you're dead wrong. I saw a training video on Youtube just the other day, showing individuals being overpowered before they could draw, at TWENTY ONE FEET.

5 No one plans or I at least hopes not to get into a gun fight, but how many times do we all run out the door without some form of protection??

If you run out the door without protection, that's your own lack of thought and discipline.

Better safe than sorry. I don't plan on having a major medical emergency any time soon either, but I still pay for an excellent health insurance plan. If you carry only a .380 for self-defense, you are definitely UNDER insured.

6 BB 380 +P round is new and I nor anyone else has any data on this round.

Common sense should tell you to never bet your life on something that hasn't proven itself in real life situations.

7 Would you volunteer to allow someone to shoot you center mass with a 380. Please feel free to let us know so we can see just how ineffective the 380 round really is.

Your statement is utterly irrelevant.

Because I possess common sense, I'm not going to stand there and let somebody shoot me with even a BB pistol or a slingshot.

So your childish dare does absolutely nothing to prove that the .380 is a reliable manstopper, which it most certainly isn't.

Ghostrider_23
July 3, 2008, 04:48 PM
Defensory Quote:

Because I possess common sense, I'm not going to stand there and let somebody shoot me with even a BB pistol or a slingshot.

As you stated no one wants to get shot. 380, BB gun, etc...

I think you proved my case for me, thank you.

Thus the 380 is a good defense round.

To each is there own. Carry what makes you feel comfortable and can shoot well.

Defensory please find a life and stop trying to pee in other peoples cheerios, but thank you for your input.

kokapelli
July 3, 2008, 04:52 PM
The 9mm is a significantly more powerful round than the .380, and there's virtually no difference in size and weight amongst the "pocket" models intended for concealed carry.
are you kidding?
Here is a Kahr PM9 on the right and the new Kahr P380 on the left and your saying there's no difference in size!

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j116/xbabeegurl411x/daves%20stuff/IMG_1257.jpg

rcmodel
July 3, 2008, 05:02 PM
are you kidding?My thoughts exactly.
I can carry a P3AT comfortably in my shirt pocket all day.
(Locked breach, under 11 ounces loaded)

How many pocket 9's can you even get in your shirt pocket?

Ah!
I thought so!

rcmodel

smirnoff a
July 3, 2008, 05:10 PM
The only 9mm handgun that comes close to some of the pocket 380s out there is Rohrbaugh R9.

The biggest advantage of shooting blowback fixed barrel pistols is the accuracy. Commander Bond would attest to that.

Of course, there are some unexpected situations where you might get into a gun fight and would need to fire dozens of rounds, but unless your are a thug or have people after you, the chances for most people are as slim as getting stuck by the lightning. I know it is good to be prepared for anything, but I don't wear a rubber suit, body armor, gas mask etc. Plus, there is always a bigger gun out there - you will be undergunned with your 45 pistol while facing someone with a rifle or a shotgun, especially at a long range.

My main carry piece is a single stack Kahr and my always gun is Seecamp 32 and sometimes NAA Guardian 380 (I only carry one gun at a time without reloads). My house gun is XD45, which is also my camping gun. My future bear gun when I am hiking will soon be Ruger 454, but a 12 ga shotgun in the meantime.

kokapelli
July 3, 2008, 05:14 PM
Exactly! A 380 is a shoot and scoot gun.

Getting hit with a 380 round will at the very least will distract a BG and give you some time to scoot!

Pocket guns were never meant for extended shootouts.

Defensory
July 3, 2008, 05:24 PM
Posted by kokapelli:
are you kidding?
Here is a Kahr PM9 on the right and the new Kahr P380 on the left and your saying there's no difference in size!

I clearly stated that there was VIRTUALLY no difference in size.

Dictionary definition of "virtually":

"Almost but not quite; nearly"

There's only 4.4 ounces difference in weight between the Kel-Tec PF-9 and Kel-Tec P-3AT, and less than 2/3 of one inch difference in length.

If a 9mm that weighs less than 13 ounces and is less than 6 inches in length is a little too much for you to handle, I suggest you hire a 12-year old girl as a bodyguard. :neener:

jocko
July 3, 2008, 05:25 PM
never thought about carrying in a shirt pocket, pants pocket serves my 380 well as does my pm9, have no problems with either in pants pocket.. a 9mm is going to be bigger than most 380's. no matter how small a 9mm is, it won't come up to the 380 kt or lcp but sure doesn't mean not pocketable either.

19-3Ben
July 3, 2008, 05:31 PM
Defensory says:
Because of their blowback design, the .380's recoil is no lighter.

umm...sorry defensory, but the pocket pistols are NOT blowback. Bersas, Sig p232, and walthers are indeed blowback, but we're not talking about those. Pocket pistols are guns like the Kahr p380, Ruger LCP, and Keltec P3AT. None of those are blowback.

Ghostrider_23
July 3, 2008, 05:45 PM
Why are you such a hateful little person????

It seems you are obsessed with proving yourself right and others wrong, be it a ones option that doesn't do what you want them to or other posters who simply disagree with your view point. I've found in dealing with people you get back exactly what you are looking for. It's always been courteous and usually the people go above and beyond what might be established to explain their own thoughts. From reading the hostility in your posts, I imagine that you either get your way or you really let them know it.

But Please once again,

find a life and stop trying to pee in other peoples cheerios

kokapelli
July 3, 2008, 05:46 PM
I clearly stated that there was VIRTUALLY no difference in size.

Dictionary definition of "virtually":

"Almost but not quite; nearly"

There's only 4.4 ounces difference in weight between the Kel-Tec PF-9 and Kel-Tec P-3AT, and less than 2/3 of one inch difference in length.

If a 9mm that weighs less than 13 ounces and is less than 6 inches in length is a little too much for you to handle, I suggest you hire a 12-year old girl as a bodyguard.
That's just wrong! There is a significant difference in size!
In addition to owning a PM9, I also own a PF9 and a few P-3
ATs, both of which I shot today.

I am able to carry the PF9 in few pairs of pants, but just a few.
I can carry the P3ATs in every pair of pants I own.

I have my PF9 and my P-3AT sitting here right now waiting to be cleaned and as you can see, they are not "Almost but not quite; nearly" the same size"! The PF9, as small as it is, is significantly bigger than the P-3AT:neener::neener:

http://omploader.org/vbDBy/pf9-p3at.JPG

MCgunner
July 3, 2008, 05:52 PM
Just shoot til the threat ceases. Better'n .22 or .32. I've carried .380 before as a primary, feel better with more, but it ain't like it's gonna bounce off.

mavracer
July 3, 2008, 06:05 PM
I suggest you hire a 12-year old girl as a bodyguard.
so defensory are you avaliable

smirnoff a
July 3, 2008, 06:10 PM
Quote:

"so defensory are you avaliable"

Perhaps he left for his anger-management class?

JK. Sorry, I am usually not the type to remark in this manner, but this thread is entertaining - it was too difficult to pass. :)

george29
July 3, 2008, 06:21 PM
I would prefer a Rohrbaugh but can't afford one. Having said that, a .380 is one of the most commonly used SD calibers in the world including here in the USA. All experts agree that the manufacture of .380 is due mainly to the physical characteristics of the weapon platform. I think it mainly has to do with how robust a blow-back system isn't. Even the Rohrbaughs spring needs to be changed every two hundred rounds (read that somewhere). A .380 (or 9x18) at 21 yards is a fine choice when something bigger is unavailable. I have been yearning for the new LCP myself but am waiting a bit longer to see if they really got it right. I figure in another year or two demand will not be so high.

smee781
July 3, 2008, 06:27 PM
Looks like Defensory took his football and went home!:neener: I deal with people like him all the time at work,(Goverment) Its his way or the highway.:rolleyes:

jocko
July 3, 2008, 06:34 PM
george29. I hear pros and cons on the R9, not price as much as just very very ammo sensitive. It's a small bugger for sure. My pm9 is bigger no doubt but it can ride in my front pocket with ease and mine at least willshoot everything I put in it, and I have 12,800 rounds down range through it. If I can't shoot um, I don't want um. not sure the R9 would take that type of shootings. I bet it would be a fun gun to shoot once you got it running right though..

jocko
July 3, 2008, 06:36 PM
smee781: he will be back, maybe alittle kinder and gentleler...

wristtwister
July 3, 2008, 07:15 PM
I'm just an observer in this one, but the .380 used to be called a "9mm short", and was the preferred weapon of the Mossad for many years.

I like bigger guns, such as the 9mm, .38 special, .357, .40 cal, and .44 mag, but I'd feel perfectly comfortable protecting myself with my .380's... either of them. "Cartridge envy" is like "penis envy", and usually done for the same reasons... a feeling of inferiority. If you hit what you shoot at, there's no problem... otherwise... get a shotgun and fill it with buckshot.

WT

george29
July 3, 2008, 07:27 PM
george29. I hear pros and cons on the R9, not price as much as just very very ammo sensitive. It's a small bugger for sure. My pm9 is bigger no doubt but it can ride in my front pocket with ease and mine at least willshoot everything I put in it, and I have 12,800 rounds down range through it. If I can't shoot um, I don't want um. not sure the R9 would take that type of shootings. I bet it would be a fun gun to shoot once you got it running right though..

Do you have pics of the PM9 that you could post. I keep thinking of a good small 9 to buy. What I really want is a 9 in .380 platform size. Wishful thinking.

kokapelli
July 3, 2008, 07:28 PM
Americans like big trucks, big cars, big houses and big guns.
It's the American way.:)

Funderb
July 3, 2008, 07:29 PM
zombieeeee!!!!!!

jocko
July 3, 2008, 08:02 PM
about the only 9 in the 380 platform size would be the R9 at around $1000 and extremely hard to find. Some swear by them, some swear at them..

kokapelli
July 3, 2008, 08:36 PM
Do you have pics of the PM9 that you could post. I keep thinking of a good small 9 to buy. What I really want is a 9 in .380 platform size. Wishful thinking.

Here are my small pistols in order.

Para Hog on the top
PF9
PM9
P3-AT
http://omploader.org/vbDE2/compact%20pistols.JPG
Notice I don't use rubber grips on the Para Hog or the Kahr PM9 because they both are smooth shooters and easy to hang onto.

jocko
July 3, 2008, 08:45 PM
that HOG is a nice shooter. Owned a carry 9 and it sure was deadly accurate, the best LDA trigger system--ever.

Stephen A. Camp
July 3, 2008, 09:07 PM
Locked. This revived thread's run its course and some of the posters simply cannot go by the rules.

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