New HK 45 or 1911?


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ta4
June 25, 2007, 10:44 PM
I'm an HK fan & have read the recent article on the new HK 45 in a handgun mag. The article stated that the HK 45 has been patterned after the 1911. If so, why buy the copy & not the real thing? Has HK perfected the 1911 with the HK 45?

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XLMiguel
June 25, 2007, 11:14 PM
I have an H&K USP45C V1 and a couple of Colt Commanders. The capacity is the same (8+1), but the H&K is lighter, can be carried either cocked & locked or with one in the tube, hammer down, with or without the safety on. That's pretty versitile (or confusing, depending on how you train). The DA trigger is kind of long & heavy (as one might expect -), the SA is light and fairly crisp, with a hint of creep. It is very accurate and eats everything.

However, the trigger on the Colts are very crisp, and are as accurate as the H&K. The grip is a bit thiner and is quite comfortable. I have not put as many brands/types of ammo thru the COlts, but neither has bee picky. The 1911 is also thinner overall and a bit easier to carry concealed.

I don't think you can go wrong with either, both are sturdy, proven designs, so my take is you should go shoot both and see which one suits you best. My H&K is the car gun, I carry the 1911. YMMV, HTH, have fun with your research.

Hunter0924
June 26, 2007, 12:24 AM
I would vote for the Colt Government Model.

MICHAEL T
June 26, 2007, 01:38 AM
Commander vote here or a Defender if you want to go small

-gunut-
June 26, 2007, 03:04 AM
The 1911 is an awesome gun. Now think light weight, more reliable, larger capacity, and similar accuracy. This is what I see in the HK45. It will definitively be on my list of pistols to buy!

HorseSoldier
June 26, 2007, 09:16 AM
The article stated that the HK 45 has been patterned after the 1911. If so, why buy the copy & not the real thing? Has HK perfected the 1911 with the HK 45?

Think "inspired" or "influenced" rather than "copied." The grip angle on the HK 45 and control layout mimic that of the 1911. Otherwise, they're not very related at all. I expect the HK 45 will be quite well made and such, but it will no more be a one for one replacement for 1911s than an XD 45 or USP 45, etc., is.

10-Ring
June 26, 2007, 11:21 AM
When it came to a 7 or 8 round 45 acp pistol, I ended up going w/ a gov't & commander model vs. the HK. I do have the HK as my hi-cap 45 acp. Maybe it was my way of justifying having both, whatever :rolleyes: but I'm glad I have both -- now I just want to get my hands on one of the new HK45s.
Is one better than the other?? In my experience, not really.

irighti
July 12, 2007, 10:53 AM
I was fortunate to be able to shoot the new HK.45 last weekend while attending the Vickers 1911 Operators Training in VA. Larry brought one of the pre production pistols to the class to try out. I put 50 rounds through it. It is a nice gun!
Pros.
Very ergonomic. Quite accurate. Reliable. Nice sights. Good grip angle. Better than average trigger. Well made and rigerously tested by HK. 10 round mags are quite functional well made. The gun pointed very well for me.

Cons
I did not care for the finger grooves moulded into the grip. No firm release date. Cost is higher than the M&P.

Summary. I will buy the gun. Grind down the finger grooves and shoot the hell out of it. I feel it is a winner. If you want to carry cocked and locked get it with the Mod. 9 single action. I heard about $865 street price.

Irighti

DogBonz
July 12, 2007, 11:06 AM
And own multiple of each, and would feel comfortable with either one in any situation, the HK is my “night stand” gun. It has proven to be reliable, accurate, and is not picky in the least about ammo choice. While I cannot speak highly enough of the HK’s I do find that my 1911’s are more fun to shoot. So, while I would consider the 1911 a serious duty auto for the worst case scenarios, if the S hit the F right now, I would grab my HK. It’s just my personal preference, but that is just how I feel.

Jason_G
July 12, 2007, 11:29 AM
I'm an HK fan & have read the recent article on the new HK 45 in a handgun mag. The article stated that the HK 45 has been patterned after the 1911. If so, why buy the copy & not the real thing? Has HK perfected the 1911 with the HK 45?
If you are talking about the same article I am thinking about, then the comment was more metaphorical than literal. They meant it as being the potential "new 1911" as in the niche it was intended to fill as the new .45 ACP sidearm.

Jason

abarth
July 12, 2007, 12:33 PM
I saw the HK 45, and there is no way the 45 is patterned after a 1911. Its like saying the HK 91 is patterned after the M14. I got 2 1911s already, I too am waiting for the HK 45 to come out.

Boats
July 12, 2007, 02:52 PM
H&K USP pistols that are not Variant 7 DAO LEMS or Variants 9 or 10 C&Ls without decock are some of the most overrated pieces on the market.

The trigger on my .45USPc Variant 2 was absurdly bad, (spongy with an overlong travel and creep), even in SA, for what I paid for the pistol. It is amusing how many apologists there are that say "But the LEM is sweet." LEMs are DAO.

Additionally, as an avid 1911 shooter, thumb mashing that variant 2 safety downward from C&L, especially in stressfire drills, sometimes resulted in my decocking the damn thing, which brought me full stop into the crap 12 lb DA pull and usually a first round flyer.

I batted around selling it off, or sending it in for conversion to a more sensible variant and the cost of the magazines clinched it that I am a former H&K owner.

I caution anyone against buying any H&K pistol that goes from C&L to a possible decock. It's the worst of all possible worlds as far as controls go.

CZ does it right and makes you manually decock a DA/SA with C&L capability or makes you bite the bullet and get a decocking only model.

Jason_G
July 12, 2007, 03:00 PM
H&K USP pistols that are not Variant 7 DAO LEMS or Variants 9 or 10 C&Ls without decock are some of the most overrated pieces on the market.

The trigger on my .45USPc Variant 2 was absurdly bad, (spongy with an overlong travel and creep), even in SA, for what I paid for the pistol. It is amusing how many apologists there are that say "But the LEM is sweet." LEMs are DAO.

Additionally, as an avid 1911 shooter, thumb mashing that variant 2 safety downward from C&L, especially in stressfire drills, sometimes resulted in my decocking the damn thing, which brought me full stop into the crap 12 lb DA pull and usually a first round flyer.

I batted around selling it off, or sending it in for conversion to a more sensible variant and the cost of the magazines clinched it that I am a former H&K owner.

I caution anyone against buying any H&K pistol that goes from C&L to a possible decock. It's the worst of all possible worlds as far as controls go.

CZ does it right and makes you manually decock a DA/SA with C&L capability or makes you bite the bullet and get a decocking only model.
I've got a USP45 in variant 1 (DA/SA with decock and safety). I haven't had the first problem with it. I can operate it fine. Just because you don't like it doesn't warrant an across the board "thumbs down". They may not be for you, but it doesn't make it a bad firearm. I wouldn't trade mine. I have heard many others who say the same.

Jason

Lonestar49
July 12, 2007, 03:10 PM
...

Small, accurate, dependable, cocked and locked, 8 rounds, backup mag of 7 rounds.

I have medium, semi thin, hands, and have found that my Colt Defender fits my hands as good as any other guns I own, Sigs, and Beretta, all double-stack mags, wider grips, with the exception of my full size, single-stack mag, P220R, which also fits my hands, as if built around them, as well as the others.

This little gun CCW's like a charm, is VERY accurate and reliable with either factory mags, or Wilson Combat mags, just make sure you clean them up first and they will feed without fail. *And the few times I do get a jam (being honest here) with the Colt, it clears the one unspent shell, and fires all the rest, like a charm.

*Part of the School of owning any semi IMHO.

Being cocked and locked can't get any better IMHO, including their/its (factory) SA trigger pull.. Sweet !

And it cost 900 bucks..


Good luck,


LS

Boats
July 12, 2007, 03:14 PM
I didn't give the USP an "across the board" thumbs down. My opinion shall firmly remain, based on my own experience, that the Variant 1 or 2 USP and any other H&K sporting a similar system, is sporting a retarded safety on what is supposed to be a combat sidearm.

Let's put it this way--if there wasn't even a glimmer of a problem there, maybe for shooters with stronger thumbs than you perhaps, why do Variants 9 and 10 even exist?

If the typical H&K USP DA trigger were not so legendarily bad, why invent the LEM as a workaround?

trbon8r
July 12, 2007, 03:28 PM
The 1911 is an awesome gun. Now think light weight, more reliable, larger capacity, and similar accuracy. This is what I see in the HK45. It will definitively be on my list of pistols to buy!

More reliable? Is this straight from the HK marketing department?

How do you get more reliable than a quality built 1911 which is scaring the hell out of the 100 percentile range of reliability? The key word here is quality built 1911, not out of spec junk.

Jason_G
July 12, 2007, 05:19 PM
Let's put it this way--if there wasn't even a glimmer of a problem there, maybe for shooters with stronger thumbs than you perhaps, why do Variants 9 and 10 even exist?
For people like you that have trouble with the control lever. I don't have any trouble with it. It takes a pretty intentional movement to push it all the way down to decock, and only a slight push to get it from "S" to "F", with a click in between that can be both heard and felt. Don't think so much about "thumb strength" as much as knowing when to stop pushing.

If the typical H&K USP DA trigger were not so legendarily bad, why invent the LEM as a workaround?
For the same reason Sig has the DAK. FWIW, I can shoot my first round, DA, just as accurately as the subsequent SA shots. I admit the trigger on the USP's are different, but they are consistent, and can be mastered in one range session if you have the willingness to do it.

Also, since this is about the HK45, the trigger pull is supposedly alot different than that of the USP, even in DA/SA configurations.


Jason

doubleg
July 12, 2007, 05:28 PM
1911. Why mess with success?

Alphazulu6
July 12, 2007, 05:33 PM
1911. Why mess with success?


1000s$$$ in aftermarket upgrades (aka Wilson Combat)... HK is right out of the box. Add a laser tac light if you wish and your still under the base cost of a nice bare bones 1911. My vote is for HK between the two IF there was a decision of owning only one or the other.

daysleeprx
July 12, 2007, 05:53 PM
1000s$$$ in aftermarket upgrades (aka Wilson Combat)... HK is right out of the box. Add a laser tac light if you wish and your still under the base cost of a nice bare bones 1911.

Uh, which "bare bones" 1911 costs more than a HK? :confused:

Boats
July 12, 2007, 06:26 PM
Jason_G wrote in response as to why variants 9 & 10 exist:

For people like you that have trouble with the control lever. I don't have any trouble with it. It takes a pretty intentional movement to push it all the way down to decock, and only a slight push to get it from "S" to "F", with a click in between that can be both heard and felt. Don't think so much about "thumb strength" as much as knowing when to stop pushing.

That system is great, for a range queen. I had no problem with the Variant 2 control lever about 98% of the time, but when there was no time for knowing and adrenaline kicked in making an intentionally slight movement rather impractical, that S-F-D triangulation was a deal breaker. Going from "Safe" to "Fire" at a static 10 meter target with the piece beginning from the bench is one thing. Going from "Safe" to "Decock," on a rapid draw and double tap, even if it happened only a few times under simulated stress, was a few too many times for me.

Folks who eventually don't like the three position lever are not going to find it a liability while calmly plinking away at the rental range, they're going to find it unacceptable in a contest, or maybe even when their life is on the line.

I find the three position switch to be unacceptably easy to decock from a Condition 1 status and it is a design flaw--not a teachable moment.

pbonebright
July 12, 2007, 07:56 PM
I have found that the ambi control lever on the USP Expert is virtually impossible to accidentally decock, because the lever on the opposite side hits the top of the knuckle on the trigger finger. I have to completely release my grip to decock it. I rarely do so anyway as I prefer condition 1. Haven't had the chance to handle the new HK 45 yet. 1911 always feels too small/narrow for my hand.

Boats
July 12, 2007, 08:08 PM
The USP lever, when I owned one, and last I checked, is not on both sides of the pistol.

Jason_G
July 12, 2007, 09:01 PM
The USP lever, when I owned one, and last I checked, is not on both sides of the pistol.
They aren't on all of them, but they can be had that way, and come that way on the Expert that pbonebright mentioned.

That system is great, for a range queen. I had no problem with the Variant 2 control lever about 98% of the time, but when there was no time for knowing and adrenaline kicked in making an intentionally slight movement rather impractical, that S-F-D triangulation was a deal breaker. Going from "Safe" to "Fire" at a static 10 meter target with the piece beginning from the bench is one thing. Going from "Safe" to "Decock," on a rapid draw and double tap, even if it happened only a few times under simulated stress, was a few too many times for me.
I'm not talking about calmly shooting paper at the local range, I'm talking about realistic training and drills, POST courses, etc. I've never accidentally decocked the thing. Like I said though, they have DAO and SAO versions for folks that have trouble with it.

Jason

Boats
July 12, 2007, 09:22 PM
And I don't warn anyone off of any USP except for Variant 1 or 2 because I have accidentally decocked one a few times.

And I always am either implicit or explicit that one's mileage may vary. However, it is an issue that merits attention since not all shooters are alike. Perhaps it is my palm a basketball NBA sized digits that give me trouble with the USP lever? Maybe I have increased leverage when wiping the safety downwards? Who cares, but it is possible to accidentally decock a Variant 1 or 2 under stress.

By that same token, my very large hands wipe away the complaint that some people have against the paddle style mag release. Never have had any trouble with that, with either the trigger finger or my thumb.

Some people just hate using their trigger finger on a mag release.

ta4
July 18, 2007, 10:01 PM
Yes, HKs are awesome out-of-the-box. But we have to have a gun in a box. All we have is a rumor with the HK45. I'm not waiting forever for this gun which may or may not exist. There are too many good choices out there.

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