[Jrob24]

Gather round folks and hear my sad tale. Last month I applied for a class A(License To Carry). The issuing authority LT. Cook, demanded that I provide "suitible cause" for carrying. I asserted that I have as much a right to protect myself as anyone else he's given a Class A to. Two days later I received a letter of denial. I decided to take him to court and figured I could use the 14th amendment to show he applied the law unequally. The judge sided with the elitist status quo. Apparently all people are equal, but some are more equal than others. :barf: :fire:

[GSB]

Back in line, prole.

Seriously, that appears to be attitude of most of those in power.

[geekWithA.45]

Nanny government knows best.

You should accept their wisdom with gratitude, and be thankful they let you live, and didn't punish you for questioning their wisdom and authority.



:barf: :barf: :barf:

[Mike Irwin]

Vote with your feet and move to a real state and out of the dictatorstates...

[jsalcedo]

Is an appeal possible?

[Jim March]

Read this case. Carefully:

http://www.equalccw.com/guillory.html

Short form: three guys do just what you did. At trial, they try to ask sheriff Gates about who Gates DOES issue to, and why. The judge stopped that line of inquiry by saying "this is about YOU guys, nobody else". They lose at trial.

Appeals says this IS about everybody, that equal protection is a factor. Bounces it for a new trial. Rather than face the question, Gates caves in and issued three permits, but the precident was set. As Federal 9th Circuit precident, it's not "binding" in your area but it can be cited and it's very convincing.

The California Supremes said basically the same thing - case plus summary here:

http://www.equalccw.com/cbsvblock.html

Are you in the same boat? In other words, did you TRY to learn who else the SOB is issuing to, so that you could make equal protection analysis?

In your state, CCW issuance records are private under your version of the FOIA. But they should NOT be private as discovery in an equal protection suit.

Now, you COULD still lose. What you REALLY need is a black or Latino...wait..."Salcedo"? ARE you Latino? Makes a gigantic friggin' difference.

[SaintofKillers]

Everyone says to vote with your feet and move to a non-nanny state, someday you wont have a non-nanny state to move to.

Stand and fight stay the course, everyone said that the Illinois Daley gun grab was going to pass and there was no way to stop this fast moving locomotive. Look at it now, The train has been derailed and nearly all gun control has been defeated and that that has not is in a coma in the legislature, all because of grass roots efforts. I live 200 miles from Chicago and I like it here, you have to stop the cancer at the point of origin otherwise

[sanchezero]

You could always send yourself hate mail.

;)

[4v50 Gary]

We'll be happy to send you hate mail and it's only because we luv you. :D

[Mike Irwin]

Saint,

Unfortunately some states are simply too far gone to be salvagable. The four that TRULY will never be recovered from the liberals are Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, and California.

Other states ARE salvagable.

What has happened over the past 15 years in Virginia is an excellent example of that.

Some in Northern Virginia used to boast about how it would never again be possible to elect a Republican governor, or even come anywhere close to a Republican majority in the state house and senate.

Over the last 4 legislative elections, the Democrats have been crushed in the state legislature, to the point where many former Democratic strongholds are now represented by conservative Republicans.

Hell, it's gotten so bad, er... pardon me, GOOD! :D in Northern Virginia that Al Gore couldn't even win here -- he was trounced by Ralph Nader, who sucked enough votes from the Democrats that Bush won Fairfax County, something just about no one ever could have predicted.

Even had Gore won FFX, though, he was CRUSHED in the rest of the state. :)

Anyway, my point is, the farce is simply too strong in the four statocracies that I mentioned. We can use Jrob's vote in states that DO still have a chance at fending off the slackjawed soccer mommies and daddies who expect the government to babysit (educate?) their kids, wipe their butts, and overall make life wonderful.

Christ, 4 states full of essentially Stepford families. Sad.

[Mike Irwin]

Saint,

Where are you in Illinois? I have a friend in Carbondale.

[Graystar]

You didn't say what the criteria was to getting the license. The fact that you didn't get the license is not proof that the criteria was applied unequally. You'd have to find someone with a license that has very similar situation as yourself in order to demonstate that you've been treated unequally.

When it comes to a license, any sort of "rights" argument is useless. By its legal definition, a license conveys a privilege...never a right. The correct approach is to attack the *requirement* to have a license. You have to demonstate what the right is, why you have it, and why the government's restriction on the right is invalid.

[lee n. field]

Where are you in Illinois? I have a friend in Carbondale.

200 miles from Chicagoland puts him somewhere maybe in the Decatur/Springfield/Peoria (maybe) arc.

Carbondale is at the extreme other end of the state, 400 miles (and a world) away from the Blight in the upper right corner. Nice area. I've got a boy in college there.

[Pendragon]

Mike is right.

I have respect for people who want to stay and fight. I was willing to do that to a point. We are actually leaving CA for financial reasons, but we chose TX as much for freedom and gun issues as anything else.

I have a son to raise and I am not willing to sacrifice any part of him or his upbringing to "help" what I do not see as very possible.

I think CA may have a chance in 10 years - after the liberalism really gets a chance to "work".

[Dave R]

Jrob, if you have the resources and the stomach for it, I say fight it in appeals. Jim March gave you the ammo you need. Run with it, if you can.

[Jim March]

Ya, well there's one other big piece you need:

http://www.equalccw.com/practicalrace.html

If you're Latino like I think, THIS is why is matters.

The first chapter is OK as background but the second bit on equal protection is...well it's been looked over by a BUNCH of lawyers.

[bjengs]

Mike, have you lived in any of those four "unsalvageable" states you mentioned? (honest question, implying nothing, BTW)

I find the "move to a better place" rationale really annoying. A lot of people, on this board and elsewhere, think it's enough to go somewhere where the Republicans (who I guess we're supposed to assume are pro-gun, despite evidence to the contrary) outnumber the Democrats, or where it's at least close. Then, VOTE VOTE VOTE.

Is voting really the best recourse of a free man? I think it best to change the culture around you. ESPECIALLY here in Hollywood. You want to see more pro-gun, pro-freedom points of view in entertainment media? We'd love to have you here, shifting the culture of this entertainment capital ever so slightly away from one of statism.

So, you may be glad to live wherever you do, but I must say I find it the height of arrogance to say, "move out of there if you love freedom, it's a total wasteland." Well, friend, it's my home.

[Standing Wolf]

I voted with my feet. My only regret about leaving the People's Republic of California to return to the United States is that I didn't do it years sooner.

[Old Fuff]

I moved from Michigan to Arizona in 1977 because to be frank, I didn't think anything would improve during what was left of my lifetime. They have, much to my suprise, got a "shall issue" CCW law passed, but we have that in Arizona too. I know everyone who lives in an anti-gun state or city can't move, and I feel for them. If you're stuck by all means fight back. I'll give you credit for doing it. But I'm still glad I moved.

[Mike Irwin]

Jengs,

No, I've not lived in any of those states.

I determined that early on in my life when I started understanding how the laws of those states compared to the laws of other states.

I've also, over the past nearly 25 years (I'm 38) watched those 4 states unremittingly descend deeper and deeper into the liberal worker's paradises that the Democrats claim them to be.

Things have gotten better in a LOT of other states -- states that have adopted shall issue laws, states that have stifled the cities from making fraudulent nuisance claims against the firearms industry, states that have adopted unified codes regarding firearms so that localities can't make more draconian laws, etc.

In California, New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts, the firearms laws have gotten steadily worse.

Quite frankly, I FULLY believe these 4 states to be completely unsalvagable. You can certainly stay and continue to fight, but there comes a point at which the fight is no longer winnable, or worth the effort. Even a rat knows when it's time to get off the doomed ship.

If that is what the people of those 4 states want so badly, let them have it. Let them be over taxed, under served, and bereft of many of the rights enjoyed, and simply recognized, by sane people.

Yes, you have both the right and the duty to vote, but you also have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Are you really able to exercise those rights in one of those states? Fully as a gun owner and American citizen?



Maryland is another state that is falling into this group, and as I told my ex-wife in 1993 when we were house hunting, I will NOT live in Maryland.

[RAY WOODROW 3RD]

Remember Mike,
What gets past as state law in those 4 evil states can easily become FEDERAL LAW and reach out and touch you in your SAFE STATE (assault weapons law, domestic violence law, and comng soon again from NJ the federal smart gun or balistic fingerprinting law!). I love New Jersey so I will stand and fight as long as I can.

The problem is all the ??????? hunters, skeet shooters, bullseye shooters, etc of New Jersey can not get their heads out of their asses and unite, and I don't mean behind the NRA either. We are abandoned by them in this state and have to go it alone.

New Jeresy residents, I'm calling you out and I double dog dare you to join us!

www.njcsd.org

[Jrob24]

Hey Jim, I'm not latino and as much as I want to appeal I don't have the money to do it. Thanks anyways for the info.

Mike- I agree that some states are lost and I intend to move so I can enjoy some firearms freedom and keep some of the money I earn. There won't be a new generation of shooters in MA because the license fees are going up to $100. That plus the safety course will deter people from becoming gunowners. All I can do here now is slow the growth of the gun-control cancer.

For those of you in pro-gun states, guard your rights well.

[BlkHawk73]

That's another reason why I didn't move to Mass. Even when I drive through, I'm there for too long.

Reason #1 why I love Mass. is that Maine seperated from them back in 1820. The lucky ones were, and still are, north of NH.

[Robby from Long Island]

Actually, the gun laws in New York haven't really gotten any worse as far as I can tell, they been this bad since the sullivan law was passed.

You have to remember, NYC has over 9 million people residing there. Anytime you have that many city people in a state, don't expect a RKBA state. And, New York State has many large cities other than NYC.

As others have said, the fight was lost before many of you fellows were even born. At this point, the only thing left to do is leave and carry on the fight where it can do some good. Something I hope to do soon. BTW, how is the state of North Carolina? I already know Virginia is great. Gotta make a choice soon.

Safe shooting.

[Mike Irwin]

Ray,

Where did I say that moving to a state that actually has gun laws that are moving in the right direction means becoming totally comatose on the firearms rights issue at the state OR Federal levels?

I didn't.

What really saddens me about Massachusetts and its current situation is that it is truly where the United States was born.