[AJ Dual]

I was free-associating, thinking of ideas from other firearms in other posts on the forum, and for some reason, the idea of a BP/muzzle-loading rifle or musket, in a nominal AR-15 pattern came into my head.

(I think it was the "BP in the British Isles" thread, which in turn made me think of their straight-pull AR's they can still have over there.)

Such would be just for laughs, or the sheer perversity of it, obviously, but has anyone ever done it?

[arcticap]

There was a company named Prairie River Arms that made a unique bullpup muzzleloader with a pistol grip stock. It had a long trigger bar that connected to the hammer. It also had the very high sight lines similar to a modern bullpup. Too bad they went out of business several years ago.
When a new one came up for auction recently there was a lot of interest. ;)

[Tommygunn]

The tolerances of the AR type rifle are so tight it would jam on fouling very quickly. In fact when the M-16 was first used in Viet Nam, it was stupidly refered to as "self-cleaning" and no cleaning equipment was issued to troops. The U.S. Military had finnagled the type of powder the cartridge used, and what was put in it was dirtier than what Eugene Stoner had used. 'Nam being a bit hut and muggy, that + the powder residue -- not even BP, just modern propellant -- the M-16s jammed a lot. Dead soldiers were found next to their jammed weapons.
The army did correct this, they changed the powder, chromed the barrels, and issued cleaning kits, having learned a hard lesson.
Even the Gatling Gun, used during the Civil War had problems. Some were metallurgical but BP fouling was one of them.
The invention of the true, efficient, reliable machinegun had to wait for smokeless propellants.
I wouldn't bother trying a BP AR-15 or M-16.

[DixieTexian]

I was thinking something like an inline that just looks like an AR. Not one that fires fast.

[Bad Flynch]

A friend of mine made an inline ML out of an AR-15, a temporary conversion to hassle the game wardens. It worked well enuff for the one shot one would use on a deer.

[AJ Dual]

I was thinking something like an inline that just looks like an AR. Not one that fires fast.

Exactly!

It would be .50 or some other common muzzleloading caliber, and just cosmetically as much of an AR as possible. Maybe even have a snaphance and pan where the forward asist would be. You could have a dummy magazine where you could keep balls and patches etc. Or maybe do that in the cleaning trap in the A2 style stock, and have the fake mag be a powder horn...

I'd love to see your friend's BP AR upper Brad... :evil:

It would also make an interesting Monty Python-esque comedy sketch. Have Coalition forces with M4's fighting insurgents with AK's, but after every shot they pull out a ramrod and stuff powder, patch , and stuff a ball down the bore. :p

[Jim K]

I don't see why a muzzle loader can't have about any kind of stock anyone would want to put on it, but the rationale for a pistol grip a la AR-15 isn't there (straight line recoil in full auto fire). Watch state law for hunting, though. Some states specify "traditional" muzzle loaders, banning any in-line types.

Of course, if the purpose is just to pi$$ off some game warden, I suppose it would do that. The trouble is that people in authority usually find some way to win in a pi$$ing contest.

Jim

[Jorg]

http://www.tromix.com/Projects_o_Tromix.htm

Scroll most of the way down.

[Rex B]

Ought to be easy enough. Get a barrel from a cheap inline BP rifle, like one of the CVA $80 refurbs. thread the rear of it for an AR receiver/barrel nut. May have to weld a sleeve on it, but I bet it's just simple lathe work. Get the setback right so the stock firing pin hits the 209 primer.

[AntiqueCollector]

Oddly enough, I've toyed with the idea of a "tacticool" assault muzzleloader, but the sheer silliness of the idea has stopped me from actually trying it so far. Maybe I will do it when I find a real cheap beat up inline to play with...

[AJ Dual]

http://www.tromix.com/Projects_o_Tromix.htm

Scroll most of the way down.

LOL! I just KNEW a few people had to have tried it. I've perused Tromix's site before, so it's possible I'd seen that and just remembered it subconciously.

[jlbraun]

http://www.tromix.com/images2/Siamese16_B.jpg

Tony, what the %^&* is wrong with you?!?

HAHAHAHA

[arcticap]

Once you see how long the barrel is on that Tromix AR15-ML, the Prairie River Arms bullpup design made a lot of sense. Besides the barrel being further back than out in front, the only difference is that it had a wood stock without a metal receiver which is unnecessary, except to be an AR clone.
The Tromix gun does look cool, but I wouldn't want to have to pay an astronomical price for it. :rolleyes:

[Coyote Rider]

Then there's always this ol' thing. Works okay but you have to be really fast at stuffling balls down the muzzle.

http://home.graffiti.net/dkaftal/Modified_Flintlock.jpg

[arcticap]

What a coincidence, here's an unfired .50 Prairie River Arms Bullpup currently on auction for $499, approaching almost double the original price. The Gunbroker ad has more pix:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=74677945

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=60020&stc=1&d=1183070761

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=60021&stc=1&d=1183070784

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=60022&stc=1&d=1183070812

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=60023&stc=1&d=1183070829

[Shotgun Willy]

What's stuck in my mind is something along the lines of the Barret sniper rifle. It doesn't even have to be in-line either. For that matter it could even be a flinter.

Bill

[Warren]

I have a gun zine somewhere where there is an article on a fellow who made a flintlock pistol on a 1911 frame. Looked really cool.

[Seancass]

as long as you're breaking rules, theres no reason to stay below .50 caliber. Lets go atleast 12 gauges(.76?) slap on a Barrett style muzzle break and you'll have a comfortable shooter.

[Mat, not doormat]

Or, while we're at it, aren't the AK guys always bragging about how their guns ALWAYS work? anyone who loads BP, and also loads x39 could test that theory easily enough. Be amusing in a glock, too, on the same rationale.

~~~Mat

[dstorm1911]

Mat, its already been done, takes 65 grns of FFG in a 7.62x39 case to compress the charge and yes an AK will function fine and will cycle for at least 30 rnds if I'd loaded up more it woulda continued for many more as the only area effected by fauling was the gas port had alota buildup but the hole is big enough that each succesive round cleared the port........ it was done to show the difference between the powder finicky AR versus the reliability of the AK gas system we have chrono results too but all the data is at the shop.... was fireing 123 grn cast lead slugs

[4v50 Gary]

The muzzle loading AR isn't a bad idea - if its an unmarked receiver and doesn't have ".223" caliber on it. It'll make it California legal. Besides an evil bayonet mount (or perhaps adapt the barrel to take a Brown Bess bayonet), install one of those fancy handrails that'll take a Surefire, laser, pistol grip and for sights, an Aimpoint. Naw, just a simple muzzle loader version wtih iron sights and pictanny rail for on/off scope (for those of us with aging eyes).

Coyote Rider - where'd you get that image of the Ferguson?

[Joe Demko]

Some years back, in one of the gun rags they loaded up some .45acp cartridges with BP and ran them through a full-auto MAC. Apparently, it ran okay for at least one magazine full and there was an entertaining amount of flame and smoke from the muzzle and ejection port. Exactly what this was supposed to prove, I can't recall.

[Mat, not doormat]

Dstorm: Please tell me you took pics, and next, pleas tellme where I can find them. <G> That sounds like too much fun.

~~~Mat

[RyanM]

I've tried BP in a Glock before. Wasn't powerful enough to cycle the slide, and I don't have any reduced power recoil springs. I don't see why it wouldn't have worked for as many rounds as I'd cared to load, though, with a lighter spring. The thing's worked fine when filled with dried mud before, BP fouling can't be much worse.

On the other hand, a centerfire revolver I tried BP cartridges in started binding up after a few cylinders full.

[Sistema1927]

It shouldn't be that difficult to produce a black powder muzzle loading upper for the AR platform. Not sure how many would sell, but it could be done.

[Father Knows Best]

Dstorm: Please tell me you took pics, and next, pleas tellme where I can find them. <G> That sounds like too much fun.
+1,000! I am SO gonna try that. I load BP cartridge for cowboy action (.44 Russian and .44-40), and I'm also set up to reload 7.62x39. I never thought to put BP in my 7.62x39. Now, where can I get .311 lead slugs? And did you use any wads or lube pills under the slugs?

[Dave Markowitz]

The following was posted by a friend of mine on an email list:

And I managed to get about 70 rounds of ammo through a SKS that was loaded with BP and 170 grain cast bullets. Then I swabbed out the chamber with a wet patch and it fired the remainder of the one hundred I'd loaded for the test. ... Accuracy was equal to the steel core surplus stuff that was selling everywhere about then...around 4" to 5" groups for 5 shots at 100 yds. I was impressed with how that $79 rifle performed.