[firestar]

Won't have a chance to shoot it until the weekend but here are my first impressions.

Fit and finish are pretty good, not SIG good but still pretty decent. The blueing is as good as any modern pistol, deep, glossly blue/black with an attractive satin finish on the top part of the slide. I noticed one or two slight irregularities in the final machining. Nothing I could get a pic of because they are so slight but if you look you may notice that one side of the muzzle end of the slide, it looks like the buffing wheel stayed too long on the edge. There is a slight haze or something that shows that the buffing was not perfect. I'm being picky, it is not that noticable but I am trying to give an accurate description.

Trigger is a little heavy and gritty in DA but it may smooth up with use. In SA, there is a little bit of takeup and then some creep but it is smooth and light. SA trigger is very nice, above average and puts CZ to shame.

All parts fit together and work properly but it is not as tight as some better more expensive guns. The barrel to slide lockup is sloppy and so is the slide to frame fit. If you hold the empty pistol and shake it, you can hear the slide rattle. No big deal in terms of function but I like a rattle free gun if possible.

It has a safety that acts as a decocker and you can carry it cocked and locked (if you are perverted like that).

It is very heavy for it's size but doesn't feel bad in the hand. It has good balance and points well. The grip is a little short and I can barely get all the fingers of my average sized hands on the gun. If it came with finger extension mags, it would be perfect. The grip is about 3/8" too short for me.

In terms of overall quality, I would rank it somewhere between CZ and SIG/Beretta. It is clearly better made than your average CZ-75B or CZ-40B but not quite up to SIG standards. I don't know about the newer or more expensive CZs so I am only comparing it to those two models that I have experience with. I think if CZ made an all steel single stack DA/SA 9mm, this would be what they would make on a good day. More than CZ quality at a price that even CZ can't match. $209.99 You would pay twice that from CZ.

I think it is a great deal on a well made gun. I have to hold back on some of my opinions until after I shoot it but unless it jams or is totaly inaccurate, I don't think I will reverse my opinion that it is a good deal.

[arinvolvo]

FInally...took long enough...it feels like you ordered it a month ago.

Anyway, dont expect anything special at the range...it is going to shoot...and shoot, and shoot...and keep shooting until you are bored. I have really been amazed at how reliable the RAP is....I have put a couple hundred rounds though it (maybe 400)...and it didnt even need any breakin. It has never hickupped.

And yes, it does rattle a little bit...but that doesnt bother me at all...that tells me that It will run without oil, and even with a little grit. I assume it is pretty dry and gritty over in South Africa.

[firestar]

Arinvolvo,
If you think it took a long time, think how I felt!

By the way the bbl locks up, I don't expect much in terms of accuracy. I have been surprised before (Star Firestar) but this is a defense gun and not a target gun.

One thing I forgot to mention was the stuff inside my sights was some kind of goo. It is like white silicone or something. Very strange. It gives me an excuse to color them. I figuired I would have to do that based on your gun.

Two quick questions, is it O.K. to dry fire it and where do you get those mag extensions for your fingers?

[arinvolvo]

Well...you are going to be surprised by the accuracy...they actually group really well. The barrel doesnt lock into place "tight", but it always ends up in the same exact place....and it only needs to be there for a fraction of a second while the bullet leaves.

There is nothing in the manual about NOT dry firing it...however, I dont....After hearing horror stories of breaking firing pins in different guns, I dont dry fire ANY of mine anymore. I have a bunch of A zoom 9mm's anyhow. but you are right about the trigger, the DA is going to smooth out, and lighten up considerably with one 10 dollar box of WWB.

As for the sights...I think it IS silicone. they just pick out easily with a dental pick...very rubbery...dont know what they were thinking there. fill em with some bondo or something, smooth it off, and paint them nice and bright.

As for the mag extensions...I have ordered two of the pinky extension base plates that come on the Astra mags from ProMag....When I get them, Im gonna see if they fit, and Ill report back.

I would venture to say, that so far from my experience...the RAP is the best spent 220 dollars you can have in current manufacture handguns...along with the bersa 380 and a select few other guns.

[firestar]

I would venture to say, that so far from my experience...the RAP is the best spent 220 dollars you can have in current manufacture handguns...along with the bersa 380 and a select few other guns.

So far, I agree. I will shoot it on Sat or Sun and report back. I think I should be able to see how well the gun can shoot because the sights are decent and the SA trgger is very good. There shouldn't be anything mechanical hampering me from seeing what it has to offer.

Just to be on the same page, what distance did you shoot at and what size groups were you getting? I will shoot at the same distance so the results are more consistant. I tend to shoot at close range (25' or less) when I am testing out a new gun. I want to make sure that I am removing as much of the human factor as I can. I can shoot much better at close range because I can focus on the target and sights better. At longer ranges, it becomes a matter of how well you can see and not a matter of how accurate the gun is.

Here are some pics:

[arinvolvo]

Firestar...on paper, at about 10 yards...I can keep it in the 8 ring....that isnt saying a whole lot, but I wasnt trying real hard either.

I need to take it to an indoor range, and bench it properly.

All i know is that I hit what I am aiming at, more or less....and seems accurate enough for a defensive handgun.

I may take it to an indoor tomorrow...and get some real measurements.

[firestar]

That was the RAP 401 with my Firestar, they are almost identical in size, shape and weight. The RAP 401 weighs 32 ozs and the Firestar weighs 30 1/2 ozs according to my scale.

Just for a shocker, here is a pic of the RAP 401 with my Walther PP in .32acp.

[themic]

as far as breakin, my RAP's double action got a little smoother after about 100 rounds. otherwise, yeah, you pull the trigger, it goes bang.

accuracy? i'm still getting used to this gun. I'm used to full size and commander-sized 1911's, all i've shot before, so the short sight radius is tough for me to get used to. i'm pretty sure my gourps are more mmy problem than the gun's problem, but i get 3" or so at 25 feet when i try hard.

point shooting started out a little low for me, but after one or two mags i found that i could point shoot at 7 yards about as good as i can rapid fire at 7 yards. same thing with "coarse-aim."

i don't do much slow-target firing with this pistol, i have to say. mostly COM rapid-fire and point shoot at 7 yards.

but damn i love this thing.

still need to get me a digital camera show i can show everyone the leather IWB holster i made for it.

[themic]

oh almost forgot... i dry fired it a bit, and i don't think it'll harm it, but i picked up some 9mm snap caps just the same for $1.50 at galyans.

snap caps also good for safety... i have ammo-free portions of the apartment and it becomes part of the ritual of preparing for dry fire practice and part of hte ritual of putting back into service.

[12 Volt Man]

above average and puts CZ to shame

Whoa........That is blasphemy around here. :D LOL. Congrats on the new shooter!

[firestar]

I know. If you say anything about the CZ pistols, it had better be good or you will have the CZ policze on you.:D

The CZ SA trigger is really bad on the 40B and 75B but CZ fans don't want to hear about that. The funny thing is, the RAP 401 has a firing pin safety also but it still has a sweet SA trigger pull. Why can't CZ do the same?

[Zundfolge]

I was shooting my brother's 401 and 440 last weekend. I was able to hit a small bucket at about 50 yards over and over again, so that's accurate enough for me.

I gotta get me one of these.

I hope the trade deal I'm working on for a 401 for my Mak works out.

[12 Volt Man]

The CZ SA trigger is really bad on the 40B and 75B The single action on my 75B is very good. I has been on the others I have shot too. I would be interested to see how one of the RAP pistols feel, especially if it is better. From the pictures, the RAP looks a little bulky or boxy (if that is a word). I like the looks of CZ's, and I think they are classic. I will keep a lookout at the next gunshow for a RAP, so I can handle one.

[Zundfolge]

12 Volt, the RAPs look a little bulky, but they are not. I'd say the RAPs are the same size as a Kahr K9 and are single stack guns (unlike those fat little CZ that are double stack) so they are pretty thin.

[BevrFevr]

Keep your hands where I can see em... And step away from the car!

really bad? That is blasphemy! I would argue that if the SA trigger was really bad they would not have the accuracy that everyone raves about.

Hey CZs aren't perfect. But they do what they do pretty damned well. We cz fans usually are willing to see the flaws and admit them. We are nothing like the Glock heads or 1911 nuts.

However, I have read several threads here about RAP sights falling out, Trigger hinge pins falling out, and it rattles too? Hardly CZ quality if you ask me. And there have only got to be about a dozen of so RAP owners on this forum. That's quite a few problems for such a small sample size.

Back on topic, Why do you think it took so long to get your RAP? I was thinking about getting one but don't want to wait forever for it. Did you buy it from the guy in Florida?

-bevr

[arinvolvo]

Bevr..the trigger pin thing was one guy...and that must have been a fluke...My trigger pin hasnt moved at all.

As for the sights, that is just something you have to expect from this gun...they are going to fall out, sooner or later...better just to pick them out, and fill them yourself.

[firestar]

"However, I have read several threads here about RAP sights falling out, Trigger hinge pins falling out, and it rattles too? Hardly CZ quality if you ask me. And there have only got to be about a dozen of so RAP owners on this forum. That's quite a few problems for such a small sample size.

Back on topic, Why do you think it took so long to get your RAP? I was thinking about getting one but don't want to wait forever for it. Did you buy it from the guy in Florida?"
____________________________________________________________

The sights are solid but for some reason they fill the holes in the thre dots with a soft white goo. Not a problem, just pick it out and fill it with something else and paint them. I don't know what they were thinking with the goo.

Alot of guns rattle, it doesn't mean they are poor quality.

I don't know about trigger hinge pins falling out, haven't heard that one yet.

I am not anti-CZ or pro CZ, I just state what I see. If you look at a RAP next to a CZ, you will see what I mean. The internals of a CZ look very rough. The RAP is done much better. CZ quality VS. RAP? RAP wins hands down!

The only reason it too so long to get the gun was because I placed a bid at the start of a 7 day auction and I had to wait for it to end. Then my dealer decided to go on vacation the week the pistol was supposed to show up. The seller had the gun at my dealer within a few days of recieving my FFL and money order. Not the seller's fault. My dealer is a part time guy that is semi-retired so he closes shop somtimes.

[raz-0]

However, I have read several threads here about RAP sights falling out, Trigger hinge pins falling out, and it rattles too? Hardly CZ quality if you ask me. And there have only got to be about a dozen of so RAP owners on this forum. That's quite a few problems for such a small sample size.

well, I don't think he's talking rattle rattle, just that it isn't silent like a solid piece fo steel when you shake it. If that is what he means, you get the same thing from CZ and CZ clones and most other guns with a similar design.

And it isn't sights falling out, it's the crud/goo they use to fill the sights. No big deal, and not really all that unusal on guns that fill up holes with goo rather than press fit something in there really firm. The sights remain on the gun.

dunno about the trigger hinge pin stuff.

I also wouldn't classify the CZ trigger as bad, but I also wouldn't say it is all that hard to surpass it either.

[BevrFevr]

I think I'll try and pick one up. I've made my calculations and all said and done it should cost me around $280. Gun, extra mag, shipping, transfer.

That is alot to spend on something I've never held. But I guess I can always sell it if I don't like it.

Let us know how yours shoots.

Oh and it ain't hard to find the hinge pin thread. Do a search on RAP

-bevr

[themic]

hehheh... if I had had arinvolvo's pics and reviews before i bought mine i wouldn't have deliberated for 2 months before getting it!

[Zundfolge]

I talked my brother into buying his RAPs ... Now I doubt I could talk him into selling one to me even at a profit!.

I wish I would have just bought them myself :p

Of course he's reaping one of the benefits of being single.

[JackDRipper]

My Rap 401 is the one with the loose trigger pin. IT HASN'T FALLEN OUT, and only moved out slightly when I ran a box of ammo through it last week. Will test it more next week. I'm happy with it. JR

[PCRCCW]

In regards to the comments on CZ vs RAP401....... Ive shot both....alot of CZ's and a couple of RAP's....Ive got one on the way myself.

Honda Automobiles said this once..."Being the company that others are comparing thier cars too or against....pretty much sums it up"

Firestar...keep it up....I like it. You need to shoot my CZ's..........I think yould like them ALOT...

Shoot well

[CZF]

My longtime friend in S. Africa called me. I asked about the RAP pistols in service with the Police there. Being issued for Female officers and for use
by Detectives. He told me that they have been recalled for
some reason. The guns don't sell well to civilians, even at their low prices.
The SAPS has a policy of only buying domestic guns for the force. They
really only have two choices, given that the Vektor Z88 is no longer in
production. I think the TZ99 would serve them better, if not for them
buying a higher quality more mainstream gun like the PCR or even Glock.

The TZ99 is used in CZ99 form by slavic police, mainly the Serbs. RAPs
have seen limited police use in SA. The Astra design by the Spanish
forces.Everyone comments on how heavy the RAP is, Quite heavy for
only holding 8 shots.

Norinco guns sell well in S. Africa. The NZ75 would probably be better
than the RAP. A proven design with more firepower, ect. I see that the
Norc products are quite popular with Canadian shooters as well.

[Bren]

I think The RAP isn't proven by any means where the CZ has been. If you want to compare, put it up against the PCR wich has a nice trigger.

The only reports on the Rappers seem to come from less seasoned shooters who have small collections, who make big claims, with so little rounds fired. :rolleyes: I have seen SA guns recalled before! :uhoh:

[makdaddy03]

What Bren said.:neener:

[arinvolvo]

All claims I have maide have been my opinion...If you look at my threads and claims as anything more, then that is your problem.

And it is not as if I am telling people that I have put 1000 rounds through it...I tell them how many rounds I have put through it....and they can make ther own decisions whether or not my judgements are sound.

I bought the gun, was happy with it....explained any flaws it had, posted pictures.....etc....

If that drives others to purchase that gun, then great....I cant be held responsible for unsatisfied customers, or people named Bren who think they are more "seasoned" than the rest of us....

I dont need any seasoning...I taste good enough already.:neener:

[firestar]

I haven't heard any "big claims" being made about the RAP 401. I see that the people who buy them like them a lot. I haven't heard anyone say anything even remotely close to what Bren is claiming.:rolleyes: Sounds like someone has RAP envy.:D

The finish on my RAP is better than the CZ-40B that I owned and better than the CZ-75Bs that I have handled, it also has a better SA trigger. The DA trigger is about the same and maybe a little heavier than my CZ-40B. No "big claims" there. :rolleyes:

[Tecolote]

Hey CZs aren't perfect. But they do what they do pretty damned well. We cz fans usually are willing to see the flaws and admit them. We are nothing like the Glock heads or 1911 nuts.

The only reports on the Rappers seem to come from less seasoned shooters who have small collections, who make big claims, with so little rounds fired. I have seen SA guns recalled before!


Accurate but offensive gif deleted.

[Zundfolge]

The only reports on the Rappers seem to come from less seasoned shooters who have small collections

Yep ... that Cruffler guy ... nothing but an unseasoned shooter with a small collection :rolleyes:

http://www.cruffler.com/Features/DEC-01/review-December-01.html
(BTW, thats where I first heard about the RAPs and first got excited about them)

[firestar]

Why all the anger over a gun? The RAP is a really well gun at a really cheap price, that should make people happy:) not sad:(

[Zundfolge]

Part of why I'm impressed by the RAP is the price ... if these things where going for $650 I wouldn't be as excited.


I guess some people can't disagree without being disagreeable :rolleyes:

[firestar]

Part of why I'm impressed by the RAP is the price ... if these things where going for $650 I wouldn't be as excited.

There is no shame in that. That is just being a smart consumer and getting a deal. Anyone can pay more money and get a SIG 239 but for the same money, one can buy a RAP 401, Bersa .380 and extra mags, holsters and ammo. That ain't bad! While a RAP 401 is not as nice as a SIG 239, it is the closest gun I know of and they fill the same niche. A RAP 401 will do pretty much whatever a SIG 239 will do. Just like a Bersa .380 will do everything that a SIG 230 will do.

I don't need a $650 car gun or sometime carry gun, what I need is a reliable, small, light weight 9mm. The Kahr PM9 or P9 comes to mind. The RAP's best feature is it's price. If it cost as much as a SIG 239, what would be the point?

[Bren]

Oh,,,,, please don't get your panties in a bunch, I was just responding to this statement.

"In terms of overall quality, I would rank it somewhere between CZ and SIG/Beretta. It is clearly better made than your average CZ-75B or CZ-40B but not quite up to SIG standards. I don't know about the newer or more expensive CZs so I am only comparing it to those two models that I have experience with. I think if CZ made an all steel single stack DA/SA 9mm, this would be what they would make on a good day. More than CZ quality at a price that even CZ can't match. $209.99 You would pay twice that from CZ."


Accurate but offensive gif deleted.

[arinvolvo]

Bren, I dont think that firestars statements about the CZs were a knock...he was just trying to be comparatively descriptive. Just giving the fellow forum members some sort of point of reference.

And from what I have seen and handled of CZs (which are fine firearms BTW)....the overall look, finish, and quality upon initial inspection seem better on the RAP...I will agree with that...

Of course, that is saying nothing of long term reliability, which none of us have experince with for the RAP, we are all pretty new owners.

Just observations...not pissing monkeys.

BTW, I hope your screen name is not an homage to the "Bren Ten"...because if it is...someone doesnt have any room to talk.:D :neener: :evil:

[Bren]

Nope, the Bren machine gun. But maybe you can share with us the shortcomings of the "Bren 10" and why. I know, do you? :evil:

[firestar]

Hey bren,
Since you are clearly not going to provide anything of use to this thread, why don't you just fade away? I know you are new here but this is a civil forum that is by and large, populated by gentlemen, please keep it non-personal and avoid remarks like this:
"Oh,,,,, please don't get your panties in a bunch, I was just responding to this statement."
Remarks like that are not needed around here.

That is all I'll say and I'll let the moderators do their job from here out.

[George Hill]

http://www.argofanpage.com/officials15.jpg