Whats the difference between 338 lapua and 338 winchester?


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datruth
July 3, 2007, 04:45 PM
I'm thinking about a bolt action purchase in remy,savage or weatherby chambered in 30-06 , but I also see a rifles from all three makers in 338, I don't know too much about the rounds or round and I hear about it in long distance shooting, is it good for hunting, can someone explain a little bit about the rounds or round(338 winchester and/or Lapua), this seems to be the place to receive good info, thanks in advance

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Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2007, 05:04 PM
The .338 Lapua is a humongous round with way more power than most people need or can control. The .338 Winchester is as powerful as you need for any critter in North America, at least. Generally speaking, the .338 Winchester is about equal to the .375 H&H and shoots a bit flatter.

The .30-06 is generally considered the most powerful round the average man can be trained to shoot well.

A beginner would be well advised to stick with the .30-06, and not try the .338 Winchester (let alone the .338 Lapua) until he's sure of his shooting and his ability to deal with recoil.

datruth
July 3, 2007, 05:49 PM
is the recoil that violent, i have the shot the 500 S&W but thats a wheelgun not a bolt action rifle, what is the 338 lapua used for primarily, what type of effective range we talking and what could it be used for(hunting/competition shooting,) and is it totally unadvisable to get my first bolt action rifle chambered in it, i was shooting 12 gauge 3" mags long before shooting the m16 im issued now(us army), not bragging by any means and not trying to be a mall ninja sniper wannabe, just trying to get educated on a somewhat foreign round and make a good purchase and I know this is one of the better forums to help educate myself :o

Big Az Al
July 3, 2007, 05:50 PM
The 338 Lapua and the 340 Wweatherby are similair cartridges, with one being a belted Mag the 340, and the Lapua 338 being beltless. The 340 headspaces on the belt, while the 338L headspaces on the shoulder,

THIS DIFERRENCE MAKES IT UNSAFE TO INTERCHANGE THEN!

Other then not being interchangeable, what one can do the other can do, with very similair if not the same ballistics and performance.

The 338 Win is case capacity wise in the class of the 264win mag, 7mm Rem mag, 300win mag, being that they have the same head size, about the same capacity for powder, and will work thru a standard lenght action.

The 30-06, my favorite, is very versital, whether your a one load for everything hunter (me), or a change the bullet wieght for everything, this round will handle all game in North America, from rabbits to Mouse.

The advantage of being a one load hunter, is that no matter what shot or cittuation, and you have shot the gun enough, there is no doubt about where the bullet is going if I do my part. Some rifles don't seam to care about bullet wieght, and others the change in the POI is extreme.

Al

trueblue1776
July 3, 2007, 05:54 PM
The Lapua is nearly in .50 BMG range.
.338 Win is a mule deer round.

The .338 Lapua is a sexy sexy beast.

datruth
July 3, 2007, 05:56 PM
I would not make the mistake of loading the wrong round in the wrong gun, im very safe, but accidents do happen to the most seasoned gun experts and beginners alike, i like to stick to the fundemental gun saftey rules, so what is the 338 lapua all about?:confused:

kcmarine
July 3, 2007, 05:57 PM
You have to duct tape trauma plates on to your back and chest to stop the Lapua.:D


I wonder if anyone will get this joke?

another okie
July 3, 2007, 06:01 PM
According to Lee's modern reloading:

.338 Winchester Magnum
.338 caliber bullet
200 grain bullet at about 2700 feet per second
250 grain bullet at about 2500 feet per second

.338 lapua is not listed, but here's what I found elsewhere:
200 grain bullet at 3200 feet per second
250 grain bullet at 3000 feet per second

Both of those are a lot of power, but the lapua is significant step up both from the Winchester and the Remington .338 ultra mag, and even seems to be a little hotter than the Weatherby .340 magnum, all of which use .338 bullets.

If anyone has any experience with loading the Lapua I'd be interested to know if you can use the same bullets as the .338 Winchester, or if that is too much velocity for them.

Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2007, 06:02 PM
The .338 Lapua is a sexy sexy beast.

Reminds me of a spoof on an old TV cigarette commercial, "Nine out of ten doctors who have tried Camels prefer women."

The .338 Lapua may be sexy, but I doubt many men who own them shoot them a lot -- even if they can afford the ammo.

Will Learn
July 3, 2007, 06:04 PM
.338 Lapua ammo is really expensive if I remember right, I think its more than 50bmg. I'd just go for the 50bmg if I was in that price range. For a starter bolt rifle I would suggest one chambered in .308, a Savage or Rem 700 or something. The .308 can reach out to 1000yds and has more available(cheaper) ammo. Just remember, the money you save on the rifle can be spent on optics and mass amounts of match ammo. You might want to look into reloading as well if your looking to shoot the more expensive ammo.

The .338 Lapua is a very capeable round and can reach out past 1000yds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Lapua

Zak Smith
July 3, 2007, 06:25 PM
Another okie's numbers are on for 338 Lapua.

From Military .338 Lapua Magnum Rifles Compared, the SAKO TRG-42 and AI-AWSM (http://demigodllc.com/articles/military-338-lapua-rifles-trg42-awsm/)

In the early 1980's, the U.S Navy sought a new cartridge for long-range competition. Research Armament Industries (RAI) developed a .338 caliber wildcat using a rimless .416 Rigby case. After a few years of testing the .338/.416, U.S. Armed Forces lost interest and chose to focus on the .50 BMG instead. Lapua picked up the pieces, strengthened the case design, and created the .338 Lapua Magnum cartridge.

The .338 Lapua splits the difference between .308 sniper rifles and .50 BMG anti-materiel rifles, with an effective range of 1500 yards against man-sized targets. Rifles chambered in .338 Lapua are the same size and weight as other long-action calibers like .300 Winchester Magnum, or about half the weight of a .50 BMG rifle. This makes a dramatic difference in mobility for shooter and spotter teams.

Accuracy International (AI) was established in 1978 by World Champion rifle shooter Malcom Cooper along with Dave Walls and Dave Caig. They produced one of the first modern sniper rifles, the Precision Marksman (PM), which was adopted by the British as the L96 in 1985. AI modified the rifle to work better in arctic environments and this Arctic Warfare (AW) model was adopted by the Swedish Army in 1990. They had a vision for a multi-purpose long-range sniper caliber and this idea came to fruition in the Arctic Warfare Super Magnum (AWSM) sniper rifle chambered in .338 Lapua, which was adopted as the L115A1 in British service.

338 Win Mag is basically a big, slow round for wholloping game.
338 Lapua is a long-range "sniper" round.

datruth- This article describes caliber selection for long-range shooting
PRACTICAL LONG-RANGE RIFLE SHOOTING - PART I: THE RIFLE & GEAR (http://demigod.org/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/)

Zak Smith
July 3, 2007, 06:33 PM
With regard to recoil--

The .30-06 is generally considered the most powerful round the average man can be trained to shoot well.
I more or less agree with this if we are talking about conventional 7-10# hunting rifles without muzzle brakes. When you go a little heavier or add a good brake (or suppressor), this is easily expanded to include the 338 Lapua.

The TRG-42 weighs about 13-14# and comes with a brake. It can be shot "all day" without recoil fatigue-- concussion fatigue is another story (and that's why I shoot with suppressors nowadays).

Also, about the 338RUM-- it will give very close results to the 338 Lapua. You'll see more difference in velocity within either of them based on chamber dimensions and bore tightness than you are likely to see between the two calibers.

-z

Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2007, 06:43 PM
I more or less agree with this if we are talking about conventional 7-10# hunting rifles without muzzle brakes. When you go a little heavier or add a good brake (or suppressor), this is easily expanded to include the 338 Lapua.

When we're trudging up a 45-degree slope at 11,000 feet after elk, my gunbearer, Ujangbu, whimp that he is, says my custom '03 Springfield is too heavy.:p

lamazza
July 3, 2007, 07:43 PM
I've shot .338 Lapua and didn't think that the recoil was horrendous or brutal.

slzy
July 3, 2007, 08:08 PM
vern,the camel spot sounds like something steve allen may have said.

jmr40
July 3, 2007, 10:33 PM
No personal knowledge, but I have a brother in law who had a custom rifle built in 338 lapua. He uses it to elk hunt with. He claims it is a legitimate 600 yard elk rifle. Next time I see him I will to get more info.

rangerruck
July 4, 2007, 12:00 AM
PRICE!!!! get you a 300 winmag, shooting 180 grainers about 3000 fps, and thisll will do just about anything you want.

Limeyfellow
July 4, 2007, 12:20 AM
The .338 Lapau is a bit cheaper than .50bmg and thats why its used by some nations military to save money since .50bmg is considered too expensive. Both are great for hunting lightly armoured trucks though.

Alphazulu6
July 4, 2007, 12:28 AM
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The .338 Lapua Magnum (8.6 x 70 mm or 8.58 x 70 mm) is a specialized rimless bottlenecked centerfire cartridge developed for military long-range sniper rifles. The Afghanistan War and Iraq War made it a combat-proven round with ready and substantial ammunition availability. The .338 Lapua is a dual-purpose anti-personnel and anti-material round; however, its anti-material potential is limited, due to the bullet's lower kinetic energy compared with that of the .50 BMG's 35.64 to 55.08 gram (550 to 850 grain) projectiles. The loaded cartridge is 14.93 mm (0.5878 in) in diameter (rim) and 93.5 mm long. It can penetrate better-than-standard military body armour at ranges up to 1000 meters and has a maximum effective range of about 1750 meters.


.338 Lapua
http://www.stevespages.com/jpg/cd338lapuamagnum.jpg

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The .338 Winchester Magnum was introduced in 1958. Some say this cartridge is too powerful for anything but the biggest bruins in North America, while others say it is a fine cartridge for long range shooting of deer and elk. The .338 Winchester Magnum cartridge is able to push a 225 grain bullet to velocities of 2,780 ft/s, generating 3,860 ft·lbf of energy resulting in zero drop at 200 yards

http://www.stevespages.com/jpg/cd338winchestermagnum.jpg

nyresq
July 4, 2007, 10:46 PM
You have to duct tape trauma plates on to your back and chest to stop the Lapua.


I wonder if anyone will get this joke?


it helps if you have the special boots that allow you to climb the walls:D

kcmarine
July 4, 2007, 11:37 PM
Quote:
You have to duct tape trauma plates on to your back and chest to stop the Lapua.


I wonder if anyone will get this joke?

it helps if you have the special boots that allow you to climb the walls

YOU ARE CORRECT SIR!!!

CDignition
July 5, 2007, 02:55 PM
338 Lapua parent case is .416 Rigby(When it was Wildcatted,etc).

I suggest 338 Edge. It is a 300 Ultra Mag Case necked up to 338. Case capacity is 4% More than 338 Lapua, and Brass is 1/3 the cost of 338 Lapua.

I was shooting 300 SMK at 2950 out of my 338 Lapua all day long, Ops Inc Brake, AiCS. Was nice. Suppressed would be the ticket.

fal 4 me
July 5, 2007, 07:52 PM
Big Az Al wrote: The 30-06, my favorite, is very versital, whether your a one load for everything hunter (me), or a change the bullet wieght for everything, this round will handle all game in North America, from rabbits to Mouse.

Obviously a typo, but one of the funnier ones I've seen lately:D

Wife: "Hunny there's a mouse in the basement again."

Husband: "Don't worry baby. I'll get the 30-06.:neener::neener::D:D

datruth
July 5, 2007, 08:16 PM
thanks for the advice thus far, you all are very helpful and there is a wealth of knowledge on this site, thanks for your help so far:) I see you treat soldiers with a lot of dignity on here thank you very much :cool:

Came2ride
November 5, 2009, 10:32 AM
If you like the 30.06 but want a .338 then look at the .338.06 its a 30.06 cartrage necked up

9mmepiphany
November 5, 2009, 11:34 AM
my experience has been limited to trying other folks rifles while looking for my "first rifle".

i wouldn't have even ventured into the realm above .30 calibre except for a generous offer of fellow shooters. so my observations are based on someone with less than extensive experience.

the .338 Winchester, in a Reminton 700, comes with a lot of flash and bang and wasn't pleasant to shoot at all...like a loud .300 Winchester Mag

the .338 Lapua, in a Blaser, was better than i thought it would be...like a .375 H&H with more flash

if i ever feel a need for something larger than a 6.5mm or 7mm, i think i'll stick with the .375 H&H...but then i'm old and i like single shots

saturno_v
November 5, 2009, 11:43 AM
Difference between the 338 Win Mag and the 338 Lapua?? 200-250 fps (per same bullet weight) several thousands of dollars in rifle prices and a 60$ gap for a box of ammo.

Talking about a overhyped round...

From the own Lapua VihtaVuori reload data table this s the difference between a 338 Win Mag (24" barrels) and a 338 Lapua (27 1/2" barrel)

-----------338 WM-------- 338 Lapua


200 gr.----2993------------3297

225 gr. ---2809------------3065

250 gr. ---2765------------2989

300 gr. ---2479 -----------2746


Hodgdon data for the 338 WM (24" pipe), 340 Wby (26" barrel) and 338 Lapua (27" barrel)


------------338 WM--------340 Wby--------338 Lapua


200 gr.-----2989-----------3040------------3189

225 gr. ----2832-----------2889------------3040

250 gr.-----2657-----------2724------------2879

300 gr.-----2491-----------N/A-------------2677


Many people think there is a significant difference between the Lapua and the Win Mag.....not so much actually, considering the price difference for the 2 setup....you can buy an excellent 338 WM rifle for $400-450 (Weatherby Vanguard, Tikka, etc...)...try to touch a 338 Lapua rifle for less than 2K..granted a Lapua rifle is designed for extremely precision shooting...still you do not need that kind of hardware for hunting and even for non professional target shooting.

Some people can get faster fps numbers for their Lapuas but using very long barrels....however nobody prevents you from having a 338 WM with a very long barrel too...

IMHO, there is not much that a 338 Lapua can do that a 338 Win Mag cannot...

The Lapua is nearly in .50 BMG range.


Performance wise not even close....cost wise is probably even worse...

If you really want to get a real super boomer in 338 I would go 338 RUM or 338-378 Weaterby Magnum..both significantly more powerful than the Lapua for much less money....about $950 for a Remington 700 XCR in 338 RUM (as with the Lapua, the 338 RUM doesn't have a belt) or ~$1300-1500 for a Weatherby Mark V in 338-378

Also, about the 338RUM-- it will give very close results to the 338 Lapua.

The 338 RUM is more powerful than the Lapua...

If you really want to go exotic, then you can get a 338 Allen Magnum, based on a necked down and forward shouldered 408 Chey Tac case...300 gr. bullet at 3500+ fps...now that is 50 BMG territory...

Beagle-zebub
November 5, 2009, 12:17 PM
Now what is the difference in barrel-life between the two cartridges?

Recoil1776
November 5, 2009, 12:24 PM
The difference between the .338 Lapua Magnum and the .338 Winchester Magnum is about $1,000 - $2,000. :D

SwampWolf
November 5, 2009, 12:53 PM
338 Win Mag is basically a big, slow round for wholloping game.

In the context of what's out there, I don't consider the .338 Winchester Magnum especially "slow". It does have a potent "wallop" factor.

Big44mag
November 5, 2009, 12:55 PM
Haha, love the Gecko.

"We meet at the range every night and shoot 400 rounds each through weapons that closely resemble our duty setup. We also practice unarmed combat. I am a Master of three martial arts including ninjitsu, which means I can wear the special boots to climb walls."

Cosmoline
November 5, 2009, 01:07 PM
.338 WM has become one of the most if not the most popular rounds for big game hunting up here. It has a more violent recoil than a .375 H&H though and I'd rather go with the latter. It does have the advantage of both close range knockdown power and long range precision.

The Lapua is an uber-ultra-super-dooper amped up thingamabob that costs a fortune. I'm not sure what the practical application is other than extreme long range shooting.

berettashotgun
November 5, 2009, 01:34 PM
The Lapua 338 is very nice. And powerful.:evil:
As a general rule of thumb - the round is enhanced by the splendid selection of rifles it is chambered in. You (most often) get what you pay for.
As for myself, IF-IF-IF I had my heart set on a 338 caliber rifle as a first centerfire, then the 338WM would be for me simply for the convenience of ammo in a box at most places in North America; but I reload - so.....I bought a 338 RUM and a 338WM. Seem to work to much to enjoy them properly.
I know nothing of the Weatherby rounds - always out of my price range - but just looking at reloading manuals enlightened me on the very close performance characteristics of the 338 Remington ultra mag and the 338 Lapua; aka .270win 130gr vs. 7mm remmy 150gr.
I would love to have a rifle such as Zak has ( he has such cool stuff !), I would also have to give up some of my other hobbies to get it.
As to the poster - a 30-06 is awfully hard to beat, and like has been stated before - "It ain't the arrows - it's the Indian.
Zak more than likely ( 1,000+ to 1 ) is an excellent marksman from practice and confidence, something the chosen caliber has extremely minimal effect upon. Caliber helps, but practice,knowledge, and skill are most of it.

woodybrighton2
November 5, 2009, 02:24 PM
the .338 lapua is not much cheaper than .50bmg.
what it is though it allows you to have a weapon system that is still usable by a convetional military sniper
15lb for the Accuracy international .338 you can crawl with that
33lb for the Accuracy international .50 bmg your not going anywhere with that.

unless your very rich or the tax payer is picking up the bill :D
or your really really need to hit targets over 1000 metres away.
leave the lapua alone its a professional sniper round not because you should'nt have it but unless your regualrly shooting beyond the capabilty of a .308 your not going to get any value out of the system

SwampWolf
November 5, 2009, 04:30 PM
.338 WM has become one of the most if not the most popular rounds for big game hunting up here. It has a more violent recoil than a .375 H&H though

I'm not sure what you mean by "violent" (perceived? -read subjective) but my experience in shooting both calibers is that the .375 has a noticeably heavier recoil than does the .338, everything else being equal. Edward Matunas, in his book American Ammunition and Ballistics, reports the free recoil of the .338 to be 40.2 ft. lbs. with a 250 grain bullet and the .375 to be 42.2 ft. lbs. with a 270 grain bullet, both rifles weighing eight pounds. Given the fact that the .375's recoil figure was computed with a bullet twenty grains heavier than that of the .338, it would seem that they are pretty equivalent in terms of "free recoil" for most practical purposes. Ym, I guess, mv. :)

Arkel23
November 5, 2009, 05:06 PM
.338 Lapua has monster ballistics. The .338 Win mag doesn't compare to it, and neither of them compare to the .338 Allen Mag, but go for the weatherby, and just get a .300 Weatherby Mag, or a 7mm rem mag.

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 12:08 AM
338 Lapua has monster ballistics. The .338 Win mag doesn't compare to it,

Arkel....

Does 200-250 fps average (in some bullet weight is actually below 200 fps) of difference qualify as "monster, doesn't compare with a 338 Win Mag???" I think not....reloading data tables don't lie...

Now, a 338-378 or, better, a 338 Allen Magun they do have monster ballistic vastly outperforming a 338 WM...a 338 Lapua?? Not so much....

the Hornady Heavy Magnum 338 Win Mag in 225 gr. comes only 100 fps short of the published numbers for the overhyped Lapua round....and for only $35-40 a box.

What really sets the 338 Lapua rifles apart are the platform (accuracy and very long barrels) more than the cartridge di per se.

The ballistic numbers alone are not that impressive...basically is almost a ballistic twin of the 340 Weahterby Magnum and behind 338 RUM and 338-378 Weatherby Magnum....Now the 338 Allen Magnum is on another planet compared to these....3500+ fps for a 300 gr. bullet....the 338-378, by far the most powerful of the trio of the factory super 338 magnums (with 338 Lapua and 338 RUM) can "only" reach 2850 fps with the same 300 gr. bullet.

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 12:19 AM
Monster is a matter of perspective. However, for long-range applications, the 300WM matches the 338WM for wind and beats it handily for drop. 7mm RM walks all over it, as does the 338LM.

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 | YARDS
338LM 250 0.675 2975 > 0.00 1.65 6.90 16.26 30.34 49.85 75.67 | wind (inches)
7RM 180 0.680 2950 > 0.00 1.66 6.93 16.33 30.45 50.02 75.91 | wind (inches)
7RM 162 0.625 3075 > 0.00 1.70 7.15 16.91 31.67 52.25 79.67 | wind (inches)
300WM 210 0.640 2900 > 0.00 1.81 7.59 17.94 33.59 55.42 84.44 | wind (inches)
338WM 250 0.675 2765 > 0.00 1.83 7.67 18.10 33.81 55.66 84.53 | wind (inches)
300WM 190 0.584 3050 > 0.00 1.85 7.80 18.52 34.83 57.76 88.50 | wind (inches)
260 0.615 2900 > 0.00 1.89 7.93 18.79 35.26 58.34 89.09 | wind (inches)
308 0.508 2930 > 0.00 2.27 9.66 23.18 44.10 73.97 114.19 | wind (inches)

338LM 250 0.675 2975 > -0.00 0.32 1.49 2.94 4.63 6.60 8.88 | drop (mil)
7RM 180 0.680 2950 > -0.00 0.33 1.53 3.00 4.71 6.70 9.02 | drop (mil)
7RM 162 0.625 3075 > -0.00 0.29 1.39 2.78 4.41 6.32 8.58 | drop (mil)
300WM 210 0.640 2900 > -0.00 0.36 1.62 3.18 5.02 7.17 9.72 | drop (mil)
338WM 250 0.675 2765 > -0.00 0.42 1.81 3.51 5.50 7.82 10.53 | drop (mil)
300WM 190 0.584 3050 > -0.00 0.30 1.44 2.89 4.62 6.67 9.13 | drop (mil)
260 0.615 2900 > -0.00 0.36 1.63 3.22 5.10 7.32 9.96 | drop (mil)
308 0.508 2930 > -0.00 0.36 1.67 3.35 5.42 7.97 11.13 | drop (mil)

All the 338WM does over the 300WM is deliver about 40 grains more lead on target.

ronbuick
November 6, 2009, 12:21 AM
If you are thinking of the .338 Lapua, why not check out the CheyTac .408, for
whatever your reasons are on game!!! or target shooting. And made in this great
state of Idaho.

Ron

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 12:26 AM
If you are thinking of the .338 Lapua, why not check out the CheyTac .408, for
whatever your reasons are on game!!! or target shooting. And made in this great
state of Idaho.

Ron
Today 09:19 PM


That is exactly my point...if you are dead set on an over 10 pounds rifle, go for a real supermonster....a 338-378 already outperform significantly a 338 LM.

A 338 Allen Magnum setup tip the scale at "only" 13 pounds...and ballistically put the Lapua round to shame...

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 12:30 AM
Zak

Do not forget that most rifle chambered for the 338 WM nowdays have "only" 24" barrels.

There are people with match barrels of 28" and they can put out quite the numbers with the 338 WM.

However the point is not if the Lapua is superior ballistically to the 338 WM....of course it is, however the difference is not that impressive and for less money you can actually get even higher performances with the 338 TUM or the 338-378

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 12:34 AM
Heck, most of the long-range .308's, .260's, 7's, and .300's weigh over 15# fully put together.

The cost of shooting .338 is quite expensive. Going to something with a larger head size than .338LM is even more expensive still.

The sweet spot for affordable excellent extreme long-range ballistics is the 7mm magnums. Within 1200 yards, the sweet spot is a .260 or 6.5-284.

While extreme velocity (e.g. from the Allen Magnum) is attractive on the surface, that potential would be better spent on pushing a higher BC bullet at a more "moderate" velocity-- and by moderate in this context I mean around 3000 fps. The Allen Magnum is reported to shoot the 300gr SMK (BC 0.76) at 3400+ fps. If you could shoot a 1.0 BC bullet at only 3000 fps, that would beat the 300gr SMK Allen Magnum load for wind at 1200 yards and further:

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 1400 1600 | YARDS
338AM 0.77* 3450 > 0.00 1.20 4.93 11.47 21.14 34.34 51.53 73.26 100.17 | wind (inches)
??? 1.000 3000 > 0.00 1.09 4.47 10.37 19.01 30.66 45.62 64.22 86.85 | wind (inches)

338AM 0.77* 3450 > -0.00 0.16 0.97 1.98 3.13 4.43 5.91 7.58 9.49 | drop (mil)
??? 1.000 3000 > -0.00 0.29 1.37 2.64 4.06 5.63 7.35 9.25 11.35 | drop (mil)

Remember that for a given bullet technology, the maximum realizable BC scales roughly as caliber because its corresponding bullet OAL can be longer.

-z

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 12:37 AM
While extreme velocity (e.g. from the Allen Magnum) is attractive on the surface, that potential would be better spent on pushing a higher BC bullet at a more "moderate" velocity-- and by moderate in this context I mean around 3000 fps. The Allen Magnum is reported to shoot the 300gr SMK (BC 0.76) at 3400+ fps. If you could shoot a 1.0 BC bullet at only 3000 fps, that would beat the 300gr SMK Allen Magnum load for wind at 1200 yards and further:


I totally agree.....and the 338 Allen Magnum to get that kind of performance needs barrels of 32" or even more....


Zak, as far as you know, what are the heaviest 338 bullets available out there over 300 gr.??? What is the best 338 bullet, as far as BC, on the market?

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 12:41 AM
It is true the .338RUM is the "poor man's Lapua" and matches it ballistically. However, long-range shooting is the wrong application for .338WM. Compared to other cartridges, it seems best suited as a short and medium range whompin' hunting cartridge.

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 12:45 AM
I know of two conventional high-BC 300's: the Scenar and the SMK. These are in the 0.75 - 0.78 range (at least starting BC). I know of some 300gr solids that have a BC of 0.869.

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 12:55 AM
It is true the .338RUM is the "poor man's Lapua" and matches it ballistically. However, long-range shooting is the wrong application for .338WM. Compared to other cartridges, it seems best suited as a short and medium range whompin' hunting cartridge.


Yep...actually the 338 RUM outperform the Lapua (according to the Hodgdon Reload data center).

Yes, the 338 WM is more of a hunting round than an extreme long range cartridge, however it hold its own even past 1000 yards

With a 300 gr. Sierra Matchking bullet (BC 0.768) using the JBM online calculator, for the 338 Win Mag I get ~1600 ft/lb left at 1000 yards (almost the same energy of a 30-30 Win at the muzzle) with the slug still flying at 1547 fps (Mach 1.38)...not too shabby I think....

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 12:59 AM
I have shot both and found the max loads about the same. Actually, I could use my .338LM loads interchangeably in the .338RUM.

Here's the 300gr @ 2490 fps (per your above post) in comparison to some others

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 1400 1600 | YARDS
338LM 0.77* 2800 > 0.00 1.57 6.55 15.35 28.53 46.67 70.53 100.84 138.22 | wind (inches)
338LM 250 0.675 2975 > 0.00 1.65 6.90 16.26 30.34 49.85 75.67 108.67 149.60 | wind (inches)
7RM 180 0.680 2950 > 0.00 1.66 6.93 16.33 30.45 50.02 75.91 108.96 149.92 | wind (inches)
7RM 162 0.625 3075 > 0.00 1.70 7.15 16.91 31.67 52.25 79.67 114.94 158.89 | wind (inches)
338WM 300 0.77* 2490 > 0.00 1.86 7.77 18.29 34.08 55.93 84.48 120.35 163.70 | wind (inches)
300WM 210 0.640 2900 > 0.00 1.81 7.59 17.94 33.59 55.42 84.44 121.52 167.32 | wind (inches)
338WM 250 0.675 2765 > 0.00 1.83 7.67 18.10 33.81 55.66 84.53 121.20 166.17 | wind (inches)
300WM 190 0.584 3050 > 0.00 1.85 7.80 18.52 34.83 57.76 88.50 128.10 177.28 | wind (inches)
260 0.615 2900 > 0.00 1.89 7.93 18.79 35.26 58.34 89.09 128.44 176.90 | wind (inches)
308 0.508 2930 > 0.00 2.27 9.66 23.18 44.10 73.97 114.19 165.40 226.74 | wind (inches)

338LM 0.77* 2800 > -0.00 0.39 1.71 3.29 5.12 7.19 9.58 12.32 15.48 | drop (mil)
338LM 250 0.675 2975 > -0.00 0.32 1.49 2.94 4.63 6.60 8.88 11.55 14.70 | drop (mil)
7RM 180 0.680 2950 > -0.00 0.33 1.53 3.00 4.71 6.70 9.02 11.73 14.91 | drop (mil)
7RM 162 0.625 3075 > -0.00 0.29 1.39 2.78 4.41 6.32 8.58 11.27 14.46 | drop (mil)
338WM 300 0.77* 2490 > -0.00 0.57 2.29 4.34 6.70 9.42 12.55 16.17 20.34 | drop (mil)
300WM 210 0.640 2900 > -0.00 0.36 1.62 3.18 5.02 7.17 9.72 12.73 16.30 | drop (mil)
338WM 250 0.675 2765 > -0.00 0.42 1.81 3.51 5.50 7.82 10.53 13.71 17.45 | drop (mil)
300WM 190 0.584 3050 > -0.00 0.30 1.44 2.89 4.62 6.67 9.13 12.10 15.68 | drop (mil)
260 0.615 2900 > -0.00 0.36 1.63 3.22 5.10 7.32 9.96 13.11 16.87 | drop (mil)
308 0.508 2930 > -0.00 0.36 1.67 3.35 5.42 7.97 11.13 15.04 19.84 | drop (mil)


Compared to the 7mm RM/WSM, the 338WM shooting 300's has twice the recoil (FRE) but inferior trajectory performance.

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 01:15 AM
Zak

Yep the 7 mm Magnums have impressive trajectories....the problem is at 1000 yards how much oomph do they have left?? A quick glance at some ballistic tables at Snipercentral got me 870 ft/lb left at 1K with a 190 gr. Sierra Matchking for the 300 WM (no too bad) and less than 700 ft/lb for the 7mm RM (168 gr. Sierra Matchking)

Strictly against an unprotected human target they are fine, however the 338 WM carries double the energy at the same distance mark (more than double compared to the 7mm RM) with a significanly higher bullet weight and SD ...in theory you can still knock down a Moose or a bear with that kind of energy left (bullet tipology aside...)

You can get a little bit over 2500 fps with a 338 WM in a 24" pipe without going overpessure, quite a bit more in 26 or 28" barrels.

One guy I know at the range has a beautiful custom rifle based on a Rem 700 action mated to a match 28" barrel in 338 WM...gorgeaous stock...the works.

He told me that he did put down Elk with authority at over 600 yards....

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 01:22 AM
I just run the numbers for a 338 Allen Magnum 300 gr. Sierra Matchking at 3555 fps MV....at 1000 y you have 3511 ft/lb left with the bullet still flying at Mach 2!!! ...Same energy of a 300 WM at the muzzle....Ouch!!! :evil:

What a monster....

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 01:28 AM
The way I look at it, the terminal energy is moot if it's a miss. The 180gr 7mm RM/WSM load has 31% less momentum than the 338WM/300gr load at 1000 yards, and 20% less K.E. The 338WM has 40% more drop, which is relevant because it means precision ranging is more important. And if you're seriously shooting elk at 1000 yards, you can afford to shoot a LM/RUM instead.

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 01:42 AM
The 180gr 7mm RM/WSM load has 31% less momentum than the 338WM/300gr load at 1000 yards, and 20% less K.E.

Zak

Why you say 20% less KE??? 1600 ft/lb is more than double 700 ft/lb... I would say the 7mm has 60% less KE than a 300 gr. 338 WM.

I agree that no serious shooter would hunt Elk at 1000 yards with a 338 WM (especially with an inexpensive out of the box rifle)...actually I think nobody should do it, regardless of the equipment available (IMHO).

However, 600+ yards Elk shot with the 338 WM are not unheard of in certain parts of the country.

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 01:47 AM
Same data as above, here's the velocity component - run the numbers yourself:

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 1000 | YARDS
338LM 0.77* 2800 > 2800 2581 2372 2172 1983 1803 | velocity (fps)
338LM 250 0.675 2975 > 2975 2717 2473 2242 2025 1821 | velocity (fps)
7RM 180 0.680 2950 > 2950 2695 2454 2226 2011 1809 | velocity (fps)
7RM 162 0.625 3075 > 3075 2791 2524 2272 2036 1816 | velocity (fps)
338WM 300 0.77* 2490 > 2490 2286 2090 1905 1729 1565 | velocity (fps)
300WM 210 0.640 2900 > 2900 2632 2380 2143 1920 1713 | velocity (fps)
338WM 250 0.675 2765 > 2765 2518 2285 2065 1859 1665 | velocity (fps)
300WM 190 0.584 3050 > 3050 2749 2465 2201 1954 1724 | velocity (fps)
260 0.615 2900 > 2900 2622 2360 2115 1886 1672 | velocity (fps)
308 0.508 2930 > 2930 2593 2281 1992 1726 1490 | velocity (fps)

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 02:04 AM
I just run them with the JBM Online Calculator

http://www.jbmballistics.com/

Here you go:

7mm Remington Magnum, 168 gr. Sierra Matchking


http://vaygzq.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p6seDTJmPOHlThWp_-ppKBK6SpZ4hEzgFARvYlIVJYvkCIDZYWM5p853hqm9d9RriKw0yw-vN4CfA0C3R2Usxw6pxuUcGi-WK/7mm.jpg


338 Winchester Magnum 300 gr. Sierra Matchking


http://vaygzq.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p9a20buEF-ErDneo5i0Dc0hGNkrTPQjwDRFrh_oDqXtiyvn1a98iuCu_I_lPht0G9RsC13RjZT4gunCT8AqCHGqg2d8Y35wuN/338WM.jpg

As you can see, the 7mm has about 60% less KE than the 338 WM (and a lighter bullet with less SD, obviously)

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 02:07 AM
I used our actual 7mm RM/WSM loads: a 180gr Berger VLD at 2950 fps. I figure that's fair if you're using a hopped-up 2555 fps 300gr SMK load in the .338WM (ie, best BC bullet possible at with a stout load). For comparison, the 162-168gr load is about 3050-3100 fps.

ETA: in my tables, those are all loads I - or close friends - actually shoot, with the exception of the .338WM loads which I got from this thread.

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 02:11 AM
Zak

Actually 2550 fps is still within pressure specs..some guys run reloads at well over 2600 fps for the 300 grainers still without any brass warning signs (but probably they are already overpressure).

However even if you consider a 190 gr. 300 WM at 2900 fps MV, it has 50% the energy of a 300 gr. 338 WM left at the 1K mark.

However you are right, if you miss your target, it doesn't really matter.

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 02:19 AM
By my math, a 190gr SMK launched at 2900 fps is going about 1514 at 1000 yards. That's about 61% the K.E. of the 300gr still going at 1547.

If you are focussed on kinetic energy at the target, that will reward the cartridges with high BC values and a high velocity. The 7mm RM/WSM has 1800+ residual at 1000 yards and that helps it "disproportionately" compared to the slower round. 180*1809^2/ (300*1547^2) is 82% of the KE.

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 02:48 AM
Zak


How you calculate the KE?? Ihe formula should be square of velocity in fps * weight in grains / 450400 right??

I just run the JBM calculator for the 300 WM

The 190 gr. Sierra Matchking (BC 0.533) has 1424 fps left at 1000 yards which translate in 855 ft/lb of KE

This is the output:

http://vaygzq.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p7Fos9ZSdP9MVuQxBNP1SThkt66y4Z6BAD1PCEmzKgb6kfId2--R8fs24rP_w-ec3gRsVBV1nZPlGx5kv4zTpATedunMnRX5r/300WM.jpg

The 300 gr. Sierra MK 338 (BC 0.768) is actually the fastest at the 1K mark (1547 fps)

The JBM clock the 7mm 168 gr. (BC 0.488) at 1356 fps at 1000 yards

So I don't know..maybe JBM is off or your calculation is off....

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 02:54 AM
I ran all those numbers for 2000' density altitude (ICAO). In my original tables, I was using the 190gr Berger VLD, not the 190gr SMK. The SMKs usually do not offer the best BC values for the caliber/weight combination. This pattern holds in 7mm as well, and I said before I was using the 180gr Berger VLD in 7mm as the comparison. The 162 was the AMAX, however, the 168gr Berger is very close.

The reason I said it would be a "fair" comparison in my prior post to compare what I did is that a 300gr SMK @ 2550 is probably the best .338WM has to offer for long-range ballistics, while a relatively poor 168gr SMK at a mild velocity as the basis in 7mm is not comparing apples to apples.

-z

ETA: kinetic energy is proportional to mass*velocity^2. You don't need to do any unit conversion or use any constants when comparing two to find the relative ratio.

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 11:02 AM
Zak

Thank you for pointing me to the Berger bullets.

I run the JBM calculator for their upcoming 338 VLD which has a rumored G1 BC of 0.855 (very impressive).....at 1000 yards the 338 WM would have 1800 ft/lb left flying still at 1630 fps!!
At 2000' the value increase to 2020 ft/lb with the bullet flying at 1739 fps (assuming the same MV)

SwampWolf
November 6, 2009, 11:55 AM
For those who believe that the 300 Winchester Magnum is so much faster and flatter than the .338 Winchester Magnum, when comparing apples to apples (i.e., the same bullets), I submit the following ballistic information from Federal Ammunition, where both rifles were tested having 24" barrels and using the 180 grain Nosler AccuBond bullet:

Muzzle Velocity FPS: .300WM, 2960; 338WM, 3120

Muzzle Energy in Foot Pounds: 300WM, 3500; 338WM, 3890

Bullet Drop/100 Yard Zero @ 200 yds: 300WM, -3.0"; 338WM, -2.8"

Bullet Drop/100 Yard Zero @ 300 yds: 300WM, -11.2"; 338WM, -10.6"

Bullet Drop/200 Yard Zero @ 300 yds: 300WM, -6.6"; 338WM, -6.4"

Bullet Drop/200 Yard Zero @ 400 yds: 300WM, -19.2"; 338WM, -19.1"

Bullet Drop/200 Yard Zero @ 500 yds: 300WM, -38.7"; 338WM, -39.2"

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 01:03 PM
A 180gr .338 bullet is not "the same bullet" as a 180gr .30 caliber bullet, by definition.

It's basic internal ballistics that for about the same case volume and the same bullet mass, the larger caliber will achieve a higher muzzle velocity at the same peak pressure because it has more surface area (F = M*a, and F=P*Area, so acceleration = pressure*area/mass).

What your comparison is missing is the BC values: .30 cal 180gr ABBT is 0.507, while the 180gr .338 cal ABBT is 0.372. The .338WM starts out 160 fps faster in your example, but its low BC value has bled off that advantage and the .30 cal bullet surpasses it for speed by 250 yards.


_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 50 100 150 200 250 300 | YARDS
.300WM/180 0.507 2960 > 2960 2867 2775 2685 2597 2511 2426 | velocity (fps)
.338WM/180 0.372 3120 > 3120 2989 2862 2737 2616 2499 2384 | velocity (fps)


Secondly, 300 yards is essentially short-range for rifles. There needs to be a pretty dramatic difference in velocity for any meaningful difference to show up in this range regime.

Thirdly, long-range shooting is mostly about dealing with wind. Long-range loads are usually optimized for accuracy first (to some reasonable point), then wind drift, and drop. Drop is the least important of these. The biggest factor that determines wind performance is BC.

Here's what 160 fps extra muzzle velocity with a BC of 0.372 gets you at long range:

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 | YARDS
.300WM/180 0.507 2960 > 0.00 2.42 10.31 24.86 47.57 80.24 124.37 | wind (inches)
.338WM/180 0.372 3120 > 0.00 3.12 13.66 33.88 66.85 115.37 179.14 | wind (inches)

.300WM/180 0.507 2960 > -0.00 0.35 1.65 3.36 5.49 8.15 11.52 | drop (mil)
.338WM/180 0.372 3120 > -0.00 0.31 1.61 3.43 5.93 9.36 14.01 | drop (mil)

.300WM/180 0.507 2960 > 2960 2597 2262 1955 1674 1430 1232 | velocity (fps)
.338WM/180 0.372 3120 > 3120 2616 2165 1764 1423 1168 1015 | velocity (fps)

Heck, the 180gr .338 bullet falls sub-transsonic before 1000 yards!

SwampWolf
November 6, 2009, 01:47 PM
A 180gr .338 bullet is not "the same bullet" as a 180gr .30 caliber bullet, by definition.

Obviously, a .30 caliber bullet is smaller than a .33 caliber bullet but the ones being compared are as close as you can get in terms of weight and construction if they are to be apples to apples. You can pick and choose what's important to you (drift vs drop; what constitutes long range; advantages/disadvantages to caliber size in terms of killing power, etc.) all day long but it doesn't change the fact that when using the same weight and same constructed bullet, the .338WM is faster and flatter than the .300WM. There are many people who mistakenly assume the opposite (you, yourself termed the .338WM "slow")That's my only point. I'm not saying that sectional densities, ballistic coefficients, wind drift factors aren't important and don't matter greatly as to the understanding of ballistics as it relates to killing efficiencies and effective shooting distances.

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 01:50 PM
180gr .338 bullet is not "the same bullet" as a 180gr .30 caliber bullet, by definition.

It's basic internal ballistics that for about the same case volume and the same bullet mass, the larger caliber will achieve a higher muzzle velocity at the same peak pressure because it has more surface area (F = M*a, and F=P*Area, so acceleration = pressure*area/mass).

What your comparison is missing is the BC values: .30 cal 180gr ABBT is 0.507, while the 180gr .338 cal ABBT is 0.372. The .338WM starts out 160 fps faster in your example, but its low BC value has bled off that advantage and the .30 cal bullet surpasses it for speed by 250 yards.


Code:
_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 50 100 150 200 250 300 | YARDS
.300WM/180 0.507 2960 > 2960 2867 2775 2685 2597 2511 2426 | velocity (fps)
.338WM/180 0.372 3120 > 3120 2989 2862 2737 2616 2499 2384 | velocity (fps)Secondly, 300 yards is essentially short-range for rifles. There needs to be a pretty dramatic difference in velocity for any meaningful difference to show up in this range regime.

Thirdly, long-range shooting is mostly about dealing with wind. Long-range loads are usually optimized for accuracy first (to some reasonable point), then wind drift, and drop. Drop is the least important of these. The biggest factor that determines wind performance is BC.

Here's what 160 fps extra muzzle velocity with a BC of 0.372 gets you at long range:

Code:
_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 | YARDS
.300WM/180 0.507 2960 > 0.00 2.42 10.31 24.86 47.57 80.24 124.37 | wind (inches)
.338WM/180 0.372 3120 > 0.00 3.12 13.66 33.88 66.85 115.37 179.14 | wind (inches)

.300WM/180 0.507 2960 > -0.00 0.35 1.65 3.36 5.49 8.15 11.52 | drop (mil)
.338WM/180 0.372 3120 > -0.00 0.31 1.61 3.43 5.93 9.36 14.01 | drop (mil)

.300WM/180 0.507 2960 > 2960 2597 2262 1955 1674 1430 1232 | velocity (fps)
.338WM/180 0.372 3120 > 3120 2616 2165 1764 1423 1168 1015 | velocity (fps)Heck, the 180gr .338 bullet falls sub-transsonic before 1000 yards!

Zak, you are absolutely right, a sub-200 gr. bullet in 338 is not very good for long range shooting

However I run few calculations on JBM with two .338 Barnes bullets, the 160 gr. TSX (G1 BC 0.342) and the 185 gr. MRX (G1 BC 0.379)...these are hunting bullets, definitely not with the highest BC possible even in that weight.

Zero Altitude, standard ICAO atmosphere.

At 1000 yards the 160 gr. is barely subsonic (MV 3200 fps) and the 185 gr. is still supersonic.

At 2000 feet of altitude (ICAO) the 160 gr. would still be supersonic at the 1K mark

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 01:59 PM
160gr TSX BC 0.342 MV 3200 fps, falls below mach 1 + 10% at about 900 yards

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000 | YARDS
160 TSX 0.342 3200 > 3200 2915 2646 2392 2154 1930 1721 1530 1363 1223 1114 | velocity (fps)

Zak Smith
November 6, 2009, 01:59 PM
bullet is smaller than a .33 caliber bullet but the ones being compared are as close as you can get in terms of weight and construction if they are to be apples to apples.
Apples to apples would be an approx 218gr .338 bullet to get the same sectional density.

when using the same weight and same constructed bullet, the .338WM is faster and flatter than the .300WM
In the above example, the .300WM is "flatter" by 550 yards, and gets better from there on out:

_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400 450 500 550 600 650 700 | YARDS
.300WM/180 0.507 2960 > -2.00 -0.47 -0.00 -0.66 -2.53 -5.68 -10.22 -16.23 -23.83 -33.13 -44.25 -57.34 -72.54 -90.02 -109.96 | drop (inches)
.338WM/180 0.372 3120 > -2.00 -0.51 -0.00 -0.55 -2.26 -5.24 -9.62 -15.53 -23.12 -32.57 -44.08 -57.85 -74.14 -93.23 -115.44 | drop (inches)

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 03:08 PM
160gr TSX BC 0.342 MV 3200 fps, falls below mach 1 + 10% at about 900 yards




Zak

Yep, more or less confirmed by my JBM calculation as I mention in my previous post,...at 0 altitude ICAO atmosphere at 900 yards the 160 gr. 338 bullet is at Mach 1.07 (1195 fps) +- margin of error and at 1000 yards is at Mach 0.97 (1089 fps) +- margin of error

gondorian
November 6, 2009, 04:32 PM
Hey guys, the OP already said he was getting a savage 30-06, ok?

JimmAr
November 6, 2009, 05:17 PM
338 wm is a horrible cartridge for long range capabilities. 338 lapua however is not. Cheaper however is the 338 rum not as accurate as the lapua due to the quality of brass in its very name and quality rifles available w/o having to build a custom..

IMO 338's are to expensive to shoot are to loud for hunting and are unbearable w/o shooting with a break, BUT still are very fun. :D

saturno_v
November 6, 2009, 10:15 PM
338 wm is a horrible cartridge for long range capabilities.

I strongly disagree...is not that horrible at all....

People can hit human size targets with a 45-70 at well over 1000 yards.....

bigalexe
November 6, 2009, 11:09 PM
Not trying to thread jack but whats the proper pronunciation of Lapua? I've never heard anyone refer to IRL and haven't asked because i have no idea how to pronounce it.

dubbleA
November 6, 2009, 11:11 PM
It's proper pronounciation is La pooha.:D

Wes Janson
November 8, 2009, 09:24 PM
I go watch Dawn of the Dead, and it appears that threads are coming back to life now...

lefteyedom
November 8, 2009, 10:06 PM
338 Win Mag....Perfect North American Hunting rifle. Whitetails at 500 yards or Brown Bears at 5 yards the 338 Win Mag will get the job done.

338 Lapua..... Perfect Walter Mitty sniper rifle. Yes it is great but it is not really good for much more than bragging rights unless you are in uniform shooting at real bad guy at long ranges.

338 Win Mags kill ELK every year, Lots of them. Most 338 Lapuas punch holes in paper///

MJR007
November 9, 2009, 07:06 PM
I was thinking 30-378 single action 30" barrel for fun GAME rifle. Different is good.
(Hunting - the 338 mag is my choice)

rangerruck
November 9, 2009, 11:59 PM
the biggest diff can be summed up in one word; pain.

blackops
November 10, 2009, 02:54 AM
Bottom line is you don't need a 338 lapua for hunting...anything! A solid shot with a 300winmag can down anything, but a hippo and an elephant. Now if you want a 1500yd precision rifle it's the way to go. Two rounds are superior to it, 408 cheytac, and 416 barret. The 50bmg is nice, but as far as ballistics and accuracy it's not in my top 3. As for recoil that all depends on experience shooting and the setup of your rifle.

GaryGGR
November 12, 2009, 11:41 PM
You have me confused. Do you consider both the 300WM and 338WM slow? They seam about the same.

I have good luck with the following loads:

200 Gr. .455 BC MV 3150 F/Sec

225Gr. .550 BC MV 2900 F/Sec

Both muzzle velocities are backed of about 100 F/Sec from what I perceived to be a safe limit.

How would these compare in your ballistic calculator?

How can I order a ballistic calculator?

Zak Smith
November 12, 2009, 11:52 PM
Since I'm the first one who mentioned "slow", see post #67 for an explanation why I consider it, quote "338 Win Mag is basically a big, slow round for wholloping game" in post #11 back on July 3, 2007.

As for a ballistic calculator, you can use the free JBM online calculator referenced earlier in this thread.

varmintprob
December 26, 2009, 11:12 PM
I have not read every piece of this thread but lots of it every time I look for information I end up here. I need a bullet that will be precise extremely hard hitting and have a good trajectory between 200-1000 yards. I have been looking at .338 WM or .338 Lapua. Lapua seems to have more impact further out. I need to stop an overgrowth of hogs. They are generally 100-300 lbs but I have seen some monsters much bigger. I also have a mountain lion that I will not come in close except in the early morning. Which would be better for a head shot on large hogs and to get out many hundreds of yards for a cougar? I have hit the hogs in the shoulder with .270 heard the impact they looked at us and kept eating my deer corn. :fire: I would look at a 50BMG also I want these things dispatched with extreme prejudice. My kids have not been able to hunt for two years. Affordable in my minds eye Armalite AR-30 Armalite AR-50A1. May sound bad but I want noticeable removal of flesh. Sorry not to be too descriptive but they are a large pain. My only other question is to get a scope I can't afford S&B but maybe Nightforce or Leupold is as high as I can go. You are the people that know this stuff any suggestions would help. THANKS for the help. When I loose all chickens a calf cats and most quail and rabbits it is time to terminate.

gunnie
December 27, 2009, 10:52 AM
..."Affordable in my minds eye Armalite AR-30 Armalite AR-50A1. May sound bad but I want noticeable removal of flesh. Sorry not to be too descriptive but they are a large pain. My only other question is to get a scope I can't afford S&B but maybe Nightforce or Leupold is as high as I can go."...

the 30M in 338LM + NF 5.5x22 scope and mounts runs about 15lbs. [i haven't actually put it on a scale] this is an advantage, to me, from the get-go. even in it's own weight class, this is a light precision rifle. rivaling 308 winch precision rifles. nobody doubts the half inch browning has better next county ballistix than 338LM, but the weight of the iron is oppresive.

the muzz break is amazingly effective, and aided well by the thick [guessing] sorbothane butt pad. i'd put it as slightly less PERCIEVED recoil than a hard rubber pad on a 308 W shooting 168gr FGMM at around 12lbs, no muzzle device. recoil is not an issue with this system.

a previous poster mentioned muzzle blast induced fatigue. i'd say this guy has burned some powder in 338LM. same is NOT a fairy tale/fabrication on his part. the military has noted a degradation in shooter's accuracy from prolonged exposure from this load and 50BMG. the muzz break i highly praised above makes this aspect of shooting even worse. methinx Zak mentioned a can for one so chambered, good advice if prolonged shooting is part of the game plan.

yer face feels like one of the old g-force pictures of a mlitary pilot riding on the gravity-go-round. don't worry, the other kids at the range won't chide you about how silly your cartoon face looks. they won't be that close.

for a lower-end cost platform, the armalite gets good accuracy with backhills 300gr. likely, the floating bolt head at work. this based ~only on dialing it in~. as such, a a dedicated reloader might be well advised to get a standard bolt system instead. once the brass is formed to those unchanging chambers, i'd guess an accuracy benefit for second generation ammo.

i got the NP-R2 reticle. mounted on the AR's 15(?, not sure) minute rail, it'll getcha past 1,000yds with 300gr SMK, no cranking on the knobs. one of the bonuses is this is with a 200yd zero. Zak points out correctly that the "R1" has finer graduations for wind/elevation cypherin'. i still like the less busy offering. on the other end of the spectrum, if you want ultimate graph charted reticles, horus removes a good deal of guestimation, 'specially if you can spring for the whole meal deal Atrag. you can get the same percision with the R1 or R2 and a good program, in a device of less than milspec drop test proof quality. letcher wallet be in on these choices.

like you, i don't have homegrown range facilities that challange the abilities of this loading. to those who have/will state the obvious smaller/user friendlier/less expensive/more efficient/more accurate, etc.

i can hit a pig tearing up MORE hay field at 600yds with this @ 7.62x51 energy. if you think this load is just for the "my mag's bigger'n yer's" crowd, is that too much horsepower at that distance? not in my book. not being one who goes strictly by a ft lb format, the big 300gr, equalling 150 gr energy is much closer to my idea of a fool proof hunting penetrator. as mentioned above the solids will give better BC #'s. the penetration would benefit from them also. both at the cost of accelerated bore degradation from a poorer gas seal. this in a caliber that is already known to not be mr. rifling's friend.

gunnie

varmintprob
December 27, 2009, 01:24 PM
So the 300GR should do the job? Will it leave ground meat where it hits? I am serious this needs to be one shot no nonsense illimination. Should I just live with the muzzle blast and get the AR-30? NF scope and Horus ATRAG best for the money? Can they take the blast from the .338 LM recoil? This is a much cheaper rifle than some of the $4000-up stuff I have looked at. I am curious as tough as the hogs are if i can make a head shot will it remove enough to drop them? They seem to be some very tough animals. What would be the most reasonable night optics if later I need to go that route? My cat problem may require night outings. Do I need the very expensive ATRAG or will the lesser priced ones work in hot and cold environments. At night in the winter it gets somewhat cold but the price jump is ouch BIG!!

gunnie
December 27, 2009, 03:15 PM
So the 300GR should do the job?

at <1,000, so would the 250gr, or even a well placed 308 would "do the job". i don't recognize "doing the job better" as pertaining. it will or won't, no gray area.

you will get much less wind deflection, and need much less "hold-over" than the many cartridges that will also work.. i think the 250 and 300gr energies converge near 1,000-only from memory-. the laze and kestral can lie to/trick you more with less consequence. the reason i used the 600 yd reference point is this is where the much more sensible 308 starts going flat in retained energy, and starts getting long in windage/elevation allowances.

one shot stops come from one stop shooters. let's not blame calibers for things they have no effect upon. in gear alone, bare bones minimum @ 1,000yds, fixed target-in an even, one direction wind...

1 accurate wind meter/weatherstation.
2 good laze
3 a means to determine the angle from level of target from shooter, if uneven terrain.
4 a math degree or-- intimate knowledge/cards of extended ballistics or --good program. one that allows for angle from level of shot, wind, humidity, temp, barometric pressure and range.
5 or, years of often getting to shoot this ammo for free with uncle sam. i can't foot that ammo/bbl bill.


the most i shot in one long range trip was 8 or so. no problems noticed. am sure Zak would be the better source for extended exposure reports.

i feel safe assuming the 300gr @ 1,000yds will exit a 300lb hawg, the long way. one hears hogzilla stories, but aside from what you have actually seen....

any of the scopes you mentioned will handle the recoil. i don't like the busy reticle in the horus, at any price. only my preference.

if you are considering night vision that comes near optic hunting quality that joe average is used to, you can afford an ex-military advisor to inform you on that, and do a much better job than i can. if the rifle/scope costs concern you, don't let night vision become even more of a distraction. chase the cat nocturnally with a surefire endowed shotgun or .223 semiauto, depending on expected range. he's only a problem near the house?

gunnie

varmintprob
December 27, 2009, 04:02 PM
I promise hogzilla lives around here. Sounds like BS I know but I almost hit him in my truck at 65MPH. Thought it was a cow until he walked in front of me. How precise a shot would need to be made to make a .308 do the job? These things seem like armor plated tanks. I also have 50,000 acres next to me that will have to be considered as a problem area. My cat and coyotes go there breed up and come in and every once in a while I loose a calf. The neighbor will have to give me permission but I am going to ask her after I get a new gun that can do the job. One problem I have is the difference in a misplaced shot .308 versus .338. Heck I would use a fifty on the back of a jeep if I could get one and enough permission to hunt on the lands around me. The wild life of all types is vanishing and it is not people moving in. We have lost a calf almost all of our quail and rabbits and the deer are very slowly dropping in population. Let me ask a different way if for most things I used a .308 would an AR-30 be good for those few heavy far off shots? I was just hoping to only get one gun.:confused:

[Pb]
December 27, 2009, 04:04 PM
You have to duct tape trauma plates on to your back and chest to stop the Lapua. :D


I wonder if anyone will get this joke?

The Original Master... :rolleyes:

varmintprob
December 27, 2009, 04:27 PM
I am asking these questions of you on this thread you have more knowledge and my only experience with these hogs is they have some kind of trauma plate!!!! I do appreciate the help. LOL [PB]

gunnie
December 27, 2009, 04:48 PM
over bait, the AR "10" would be a better choice, what are your laws and time restraints? @ 200 meters, uncle sam says 150 grain ball ammo will go through about 4 feet of pine. two cinder blocks. up to half inch of mild steel.

the recurring twin trauma plates joke refers to the 338L design parameter of doing 5 layers of military body armor AND the bearer at 1,000M, or about 1,100yds. it has good long range penetration characteristics.

for quick, up close off hand shooting a 45/70 lever action with heavy lead bullets comes to mind.

however, an african game control officer routinely used an FAL with 7.62x51 ball ammo to dispatch many (30+) problem elephants.

the line between cartridge stopping power, and an immediate stop cartridge is a very wide one.

i don't feel the 338LM fueled AR30M with scope set at 5.5 (lowest) X would be a good short range weapon for quick moving megapigs.

you have to set the mission parameters, one size never fits all.

gunnie

varmintprob
December 27, 2009, 05:21 PM
I am having trouble explaining this but I will try. I have no problem if the .308 will do the job my .270 has not done it yet. One of the places there has 50,000 acres next to it and if I can get permission that would be where the cat is. This cat has been in my barn with at least 7 kids about 50 feet in a house of course but they do go out at times. That is one area that is having a problem. The coyotes I know can be killed with very little bullet. The other place has a pipeline right of way that is from 200-1000 yards of clear open area and I can not get to the hogs sometimes but I see them at the long end of that equation. I may can borrow a .308 from somebody to try. I will say I do not want to be any closer to those little monsters than I have to be. The man who taught me to hunt was retired UDT and I never saw him even smirk at anything but Texas hogs. He was not really enthused about ever being in a pasture with one again. He had a bad experience if he was still alive he could help me but he is not. He told me when I was young if hogs ever gutted a horse I was on to run like hell to get out of the pasture I listened. He was one of the toughest men I have ever known. That is why I want the biggest baddest thing to knock them down with from a long way off. I am already considering a 45-70 for close work. I really only have a brittish .303 or .270 to work with at this point. So I am listening to what you are saying shells are very high for .338 LM.

berettashotgun
December 27, 2009, 05:25 PM
***I also have 50,000 acres next to me that will have to be considered as a problem area***

Thats uh, 78.125 square miles ( or sections - 640 acres in a square), I don't think caliber matters. We are getting into volume of fire now.
Depending on rainfall, 8-11 acres for a cow in Oklahoma, west of I-35, 3-10 acres per cow east of it. Just generally speaking.
50,000 acres divided by roughly ( arbitrarily ) 5 acres per swine equals 10k of those suckers able to be sustained on that property.

A hog drive would be a lot cheaper than feeding any .338 pea shooter, let alone a Lapua.
Any 30 caliber or up chambering is gonna work great, shooting distance - well, the best caliber for that is all over the 'net.:p
A 300 win would work out perfectly at a distance you could make the shot. A ton of practice would be more important at the ranges you are thinking than the caliber.
I'd invest in a VERY good range finder - and I don't think Leica is good enough for your needs.

varmintprob
December 27, 2009, 05:41 PM
My problem on this place is just what you have described too much land and it is not mine. I can see a large portion of it but not all. I saw a fire on it one day and no one called the fire department but me. I happen to be on a hill and can see several miles across. So if in the 30 caliber range what would shoot the flattest a .308? I can not have any hog drive or even get anyone else involved. But there are many animals that breed there no one has seen except her hunters every winter. They have to have walky talkies to talk it is so big. We here them sometimes and talk to them on our walkies. But from end of deer season until bird season no one is even there. That is when we were missing our calf. Texas is a big place but getting very small too quick. Sorry one other question the reason i got on this thread was the .338 LM vs. .338 Win Mag. The size of the bullet was the only factor but I know .308 flies far well so there is my dilemma.

gunnie
December 27, 2009, 05:55 PM
..."and I don't think Leica is good enough for your needs"...

'specially not on non reflective critter hair.

and picking a reflective object "close" to the same range never is.

however, on your own land, you could pre-range hotspots by having a friend move a reflective object around. drive a car around to current diggings. they seem to come back to the same spots until the soft soil is dug up.

gunnie

varmintprob
December 27, 2009, 06:08 PM
I am glad I quit trolling and started asking questions. What is a good range finder? I just bought a Nikon thinking they were all similar. I am used to hunting deer and quail and javelina. Now I really feel like I better ask a lot of questions. Suggestions on Gun, Range finder and whatever I might need besides lots of target practice time. I am not a bad shot but it looks like I did not have a clue what I was doing. 200-400 yards must be much different than 400-1000. Thanks though for helping I feel like I am back in training and willing to listen if you do not mind. Gunnie thank you for all the knowledge. Everyone else also.

varmintprob
December 27, 2009, 08:13 PM
What I might start with is what kind of bullet is it going to take to penetrate a hog either in the shoulder which is plated with gristle or cartilidge or get through their thick skulls? I do not think I can hit the ear hole. Since it looks like .338 LM is too much overkill. I understand people have killed elephants with .308 but is that enough energy to go through whatever it is hogs have? Is a 7mm since it is only .284 slightly larger than a .270 enough or is there a good 30 caliber with some serious weight to it that will not have to be lobbed out there.

Will Fennell
December 27, 2009, 10:58 PM
varmintprob,
If your .270 is not penetrating on a shoulder shot on hogs, you need better bullets. I have killed a few hundred wild hogs, big and small, and witnessed over a thousand more "harvested"......if you use a relatively "hard" expanding bullet in your .270, you will have no trouble penetrating all the way through any wild hog you will encounter, within range that you can reasonably engage the hog.

Think Nosler Partition, Barnes TTX, not CoreLokt or Ballistic Tip.

You certainly do not need a .338 Lapua to kill hogs.....unless you need engagement distance greater than say 800 yards or so.....if you need that kind of range, I suggest you get a rifle chambered in a cartridge you can afford to practice with more often. The .338 LM is not a cartridge to learn to shoot LR with.....also, the .338 LM is not just an expensive round to load and shoot, it is expensive all the way around. The rifles are generally expensive. The have heavy recoil, so they need really good scopes, bases, and rings. These cost $$$$$.

BTW, I hear your frustration....wild hogs are a pain.......I have been dealing with them and their issues for years. I still load extra ammo every year, just to shoot hogs with....

Get a little closer, and shoot a bit better bullets. Your .270 will be fine. If you don't reload, Federal Premium with the 150 Nosler Partition will do just fine. Even on the biggest boars, under 350 yards, you will have a nice exit hole.

varmintprob
December 28, 2009, 12:01 AM
My problem is I can not get a trapper in here to get some of these critters gone. The pigs I will shoot with anything at this point. I will try those shells. But we have tooooo many coyotes and at least one to many big freaking cats. The pigs I am going to try some different techniques have gotten some good information on how to get them in closer today. But I was also told to get something with serious impact. I do not have dogs that can hunt them so I am going to try some corn specially treated. I will try to find some of those Federal Premiums with 150 Nosler Partitions. Around here any ammo is hard to find. I looked for 3 months for .38's for my sons.

gunnie
December 28, 2009, 07:19 PM
listen to Will, the 270 is a good flat shooter with light loads, and will take big piggies with tough heavy bullets.

jack o'connor thought pretty highly of the .270, and he did a buncha hunting with them.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/column12_jack_o_connor.htm

gunnie

varmintprob
December 28, 2009, 10:56 PM
Will Fennell I am looking and found some nosler partitions but the Barnes TTX is that Triple shock X? Sorry I thought all that were out there was 110 130 140 gr. with variations. Now I can find Nosler partitions none in stock. But I have found the triple shock X available in Federal and Cor-Bon. Either one better than the other? Is this even the right bullet?

Casefull
December 28, 2009, 11:12 PM
Your problem is not hitting your target mr. varmintprob. Your 270 would do the job fine with any good hunting bullet. It is a friggin pig not an "ork". Either you are pulling our leg or you are one ignorant fella. hogs are killed all the time with handguns and you can not get one down with a 270? (BTW I shoot a 338 lm) A hunter could kill your pigs or cats with a 22 long rifle.

varmintprob
December 28, 2009, 11:35 PM
Well maybe it is the bullet maybe I am not the smartest about all this but I have never had a problem with any thing I have shot at until these vermin. I now understand I was using a deer cartridge not the right thing. But why do you need to be a jerk? I have had maybe 60 shells to shoot in my .270 in my life. Nearly every one has taken a deer the others are still with me. I did not know that hogs had a special ear hole shot that would knock them out. My son took the shot so maybe he hit it in the wrong place. I do know I heard it hit. What ever an ORK is I do not know but sir you are just rude. I myself would like to remove them in pieces that is one stinking item I will never eat again unless I get hungry very hungry.

leftymachinist
June 23, 2010, 09:27 AM
Hi everyone, finally getting around to checking out more posts on this forum. Seems to me that whatever is new, especially in militaria people think it's a gotta' have item. History shows that what is old is new again. Back in the '60s, there was an outfit in Pennsylvania, called the 1,000 yd. rifle club, and one of many wildcats used there was the .338-378 Weatherby. This cartridge looks to have a similar case capacity to that
.338 Lapua everyone so enamored with. As for me I'll stick with my '06, although a .300 Weatherby would look good in my collection.

Ratdog68
June 23, 2010, 10:48 AM
.338 Lapua= 02 dead Taliban in excess of 1.5mi for the new distance record.

http://kitup.military.com/2010/05/brit-makes-record-sniper-kill-in-afghanistan.html

Art Eatman
June 23, 2010, 11:37 AM
For all anybody knows, the originator of this thread might be dead by now...

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