Reality of buying a M16?


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gotime242
July 10, 2007, 03:32 PM
Hello. I have a friend that would love an old m16 with a history to it. I tried to search the forums a bit, but didnt quite come accross what i was looking for as far as answers.

What would be involved in buying an m16? Full auto and is there an option to buy an old converted to semi-auto one that would be more legal/easier to get?

Where could you even find these?

Thanks!

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TehK1w1
July 10, 2007, 03:36 PM
Full auto requires a class 3 license and will run 5 figures. Other than that, there are a lot of AR-15s out there, don't know about milsurp M16s, not sure if they are available.

Father Knows Best
July 10, 2007, 03:38 PM
You can indeed buy full auto M16's, but they're VERY expensive due to the limited supply. Expect to spend upwards of $15,000 for one. You can NOT buy an M16 "converted to semiauto" because any gun that was ever a machine gun will always legally be a machine gun regardless of what you've done to it.

You can buy M16 replicas that were originally built as semi-auto for about $1,000. They are currently available from many manufacturers. The correct term for a semi-auto M16 is "AR-15."

Father Knows Best
July 10, 2007, 03:40 PM
Full auto requires a class 3 license and will run 5 figures
There is no such thing as a "class 3 license." Full auto firearms that can be sold to the general public are those that are registered on a "Form 4" under the National Firearms Act. To buy one, you just need to pass a BATFE background check (takes anywhere from 4-10 weeks) and pay a $200 transfer tax. There is no "license."

kellyj00
July 10, 2007, 03:40 PM
a semi-auto m16 is known as an ar-15. In order to get anything full auto you'll need to obtain a class 3 license, which you need to live in a cool state to obtain. KS, for example, does not allow full auto anything....and we're a red state. If you live in a blue state, well....

I believe I had a dream about obtaining a class3 at one point, but that quickly dematerialized when I found out how much a full auto weapon costs. Shooting sports are fun, but I'm not about to trade in my truck on a beat up mp5.

trueblue1776
July 10, 2007, 03:41 PM
is there an option to buy an old converted to semi-auto one that would be more legal/easier to get?

Nope, once an MG always an MG.

The trigger group of an M16 and an AR15 work completely differently, aside from that they are more or less the same. An early Colt AR15 has the look of an old M16, but are quite spendy compared to newer AR15's. A few companies offer retro style AR15s right now, check out http://www.bushmaster.com/ to see if they have a model that fits your fancy.

Heres a traditional style model
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bcwa2s20.asp

goldshlagerxx
July 10, 2007, 03:43 PM
If you don't need a Colt you could find a registered receiver for a little under $10k if you have patience. I've seen some of the Oly's and EA's for around that price lately.

kellyj00
July 10, 2007, 03:44 PM
here's your detail...
http://www.autoweapons.com/pagelinks/buyandsell.html

good catch 'father knows best'

Limeyfellow
July 10, 2007, 03:57 PM
KS, for example, does not allow full auto anything....and we're a red state. If you live in a blue state, well....

You'll still be fine in most blue states. Even Illinois now allow machineguns. Only about a dozen states in the union block ownership. Now finding one for sale due to that blasted nfa86 law is the real problem.

DMK
July 10, 2007, 03:58 PM
is there an option to buy an old converted to semi-auto one that would be more legal/easier to get?

You could do the same thing folks that want M14s and FALs do: Buy surplus parts and build one on a semi-auto receiver.

In the case of the M16, buy a surplus M16A1 upper, surplus M16A1 furniture, a stripped AR15 lower receiver and a lower parts kit. Assemble and boom: M16A1 replica.

http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/LightRifle.jpg

kcmarine
July 10, 2007, 04:01 PM
Well... uh... is it FA or is it semi? Cause the FA ones are a LOT more expensive, and are a class III (correct me if I'm wrong) firearm. They have more regulations on them.

If it is a "semi- automatic M16", then you are really talking about an AR-15. These rifles are just your run- of- the- mill gun, as far as regulations go (as long as you live in non- AWB states and localities). They can cost between $475 for the cheap and home made kit rifles up to $3000+ for long range match rifles.

I think you're talking about the semi- auto. I could be wrong, though. If you're talking about a true M16, don't ask me for advice. I'll get you in trouble.:D

wdlsguy
July 10, 2007, 04:41 PM
Even Illinois now allow machineguns.
Only for the "usual suspects" (police, military, etc.). See 720 ILCS 5/24‑1(a)(7) and 720 ILCS 5/24‑2(c)(5).

DoubleTapDrew
July 10, 2007, 04:56 PM
What would be involved in buying an m16?

Find one you want (be prepared to spend $11k-$16k), buy it (pay for it). Fill out BATF form 4, go to police station and get fingerprints and attach passport photos. Get Police Cheif to sign the back of the Form 4's (or form a corporation or living trust to skip the fingerprint/photo/signature step). Find a dealer that's licensed to accept NFA/Title II weapon transfers. Have him send in Form 4's along with a check for $200. Wait several weeks. Get a call that the form is back with the stamp. Go pick up your new toy.

cheygriz
July 10, 2007, 05:02 PM
A "class lll license" is required to be a DEALER in class lll firearms. Only DEALERS need a class lll license!

All you need to OWN one is your form 4 and $200 tax transfer stamp available from the BATFE after jumping through all of their hoops.

You can probably get a legally converted AR-15 full aout for $15k-$20K.

An authentic, original M-16 could easily cost twice that much.

quatin
July 10, 2007, 05:09 PM
The guy wants a M16 with some history to it. A pieced together gun or replica doesn't have much of a history. I'm guessing he's looking for a mil surplus m16. Do those even exist? Doesn't the army still hang on to the vietnam era m16s?

cheygriz
July 10, 2007, 05:12 PM
The guy wants a M16 with some history to it. A pieced together gun or replica doesn't have much of a history. I'm guessing he's looking for a mil surplus m16. Do those even exist? Doesn't the army still hang on to the vietnam era m16s?

There are a few that slipped out and got registered. DAMN FEW!

Father Knows Best
July 10, 2007, 05:14 PM
Yup. That's why authentic M16's cost megabucks.

As someone else mentioned, the closest you can come for a reasonable amount is to build a semiauto clone using a semiauto lower receiver and a milsurp parts kit. You could build one of those for around $1000.

Crunker1337
July 10, 2007, 05:59 PM
"Nope, once an MG always an MG."

Not necessarily... if you cut up the receiver and destroy the drop-in auto-sear as per BATFE guidelines, you can put it back together and legally reactivate it as a semi-auto only firearm. You cannot sell it after this however.

Some people have done this with post-86 G36s.

DMK
July 10, 2007, 06:01 PM
The guy wants a M16 with some history to it. A pieced together gun or replica doesn't have much of a history. I'm guessing he's looking for a mil surplus m16. Do those even exist?Unless he's very wealthy, it's ain't gonna happen.

gotime242
July 10, 2007, 07:10 PM
Wow, VERY helpfull information. Pretty much exactly what i was looking for. Thanks everyone for being kind enough to help me out so much, i know im pretty ignorant on the subject.

The idea of M16 surplus furniture on an ar-15 reciever is kind of interesting, im definetly going to look into that.

Frog48
July 10, 2007, 07:21 PM
Now finding one for sale due to that blasted nfa86 law is the real problem.

Not true, there are plenty for sale, but they're VERY expensive. If you have the money, you wont have any problem finding one. Theres always a bunch for sale at www.subguns.com/classifieds :neener:

Neo-Luddite
July 10, 2007, 08:50 PM
Even Illinois now allow machineguns.


Please tell me I've been mis-informed all this time.

The more things they stick on the AR platform, the more the clean lines of an old one with triangular handguards looks nice. Really, if it's the 'furniture' that makes the look for you--you should be able to smack it on a current production with a standard 'a2' length barrel--best of both worlds maybe.

On a minor note, although it is mostly true today--the AR-15 label does not always note a semi-auto weapon. M-16 was a military label applied to the rifle--but the U.S. military did procure some marked 'AR-15' by Colt in spite of being select fire.

lamazza
July 10, 2007, 08:56 PM
I saw a nice one this weekend at a gunshow for a mere $18,000

DMK
July 10, 2007, 09:20 PM
the U.S. military did procure some marked 'AR-15' by Colt in spite of being select fire.Those are probably even C&R. All NFA laws still apply of course.

I'd love one of those really early Armalites with the thin Bakelite handguards and the charging lever in the carry handle. That would be way cool. :)

If the Govt ever collapsed we need to all take a road trip to the Anniston vault and rescue all that cool stuff before the looters get it. :evil:

The idea of M16 surplus furniture on an ar-15 reciever is kind of interesting, im definetly going to look into that.Keep an eye on www.gunbroker.com and the Used Parts section of the Equipment Exchange over at www.ar15.com The uppers and furniture turn up every once in a while.

Make sure you get the proper M16A1(or Colt SP1) pistol grip and butt stock. Otherwise it will just look dorky.

Lurk the 'Retro' forum at AR15.com (http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=123) and you'll absorb all the neat technical details and turn into a history geek like some of the rest of us. ;)

mp510
July 10, 2007, 10:53 PM
the U.S. military did procure some marked 'AR-15' by Colt in spite of being select fire.


Rifles made by Colt through 1970 (and later probably) were rollmarked AR-15. In the 90's at least some were converted to A2 configuration and they remain in service today.

Limeyfellow
July 10, 2007, 11:04 PM
Even Illinois now allow machineguns.

Please tell me I've been mis-informed all this time.

It passed and comes into effect on January 1st that they can buy private owned machine guns. All it took was one gun company threatening to move to Indiana and they decided to change the rule rather than loose lots of jobs in the state.

Neo-Luddite
July 10, 2007, 11:26 PM
Thanks for the info---I'll have to look into that. I heard nothing about it, but that doesn't surprise me.

It doesn't matter either as I don't have the $$$ to burn now either.
------

MP510--I was issued one marked like that in the early 90's. All the NG stuff at that moment in time was O-L-D gear--my unit still had m-151a1 jeeps when the Gulf War began, and 1911a1's.

wdlsguy
July 10, 2007, 11:30 PM
It passed and comes into effect on January 1st that they can buy private owned machine guns.
I believe you are referring to a law that was passed in 1981 and repealed in 1982.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE3D91238F936A15751C1A967948260
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04EFDF1138F937A25752C0A964948260

Trebor
July 11, 2007, 02:09 AM
Rifles made by Colt through 1970 (and later probably) were rollmarked AR-15. In the 90's at least some were converted to A2 configuration and they remain in service today.

I used a Colt "AR-15" marked M-16A2 during the Small Arms Firing School at Camp Perry last year. The "A2" was crudely stamped over the "A1" stamp. Yes, it was marked both "Colt AR-15" and "M-16" in two different places.

I also got the shoot a GM Hydromatic M-16A1 brought to A2 standards at the M-16 EIC match a few days later.

Judging by the amount of wear on the uppers, I'd say they were among the first rifles rebuilt into A2 standard whenever that program started. The upper and lower looked like they'd been together for a long time.

I have pics of both rifles and some other interesting guns. I'll try to get them up sometime.

Neo-Luddite
July 11, 2007, 09:09 AM
THAT was an escoteric moment in Illinois History! WOW!

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