HD Shot Size - Revisit

[dmarbell]

I did some searches here, and I know this topic has been covered. But it came up over on trapshooters.com forum. I got involved and linked some penetration test sites, and other discussions on this board.

I believe some people think birdshot for HD is a good choice because it spreads, thus making it easier to hit the target. It also loses energy quickly, which means that it should minimize collateral damage.

It's kind of a catch 22.

The longest HD shot I would take inside my house is about 20 feet. At 20' there would be no appreciable spread to the pattern, regardless of whether you shot birdshot or buckshot. Buckshot would penetrate better, but both would deliver a powerful blow in terms of ft-lbs. At 20', I think the birdshot would deliver a rather devastating blow, and would be enough to stop almost any human intruder. (Comparing similar length shells and dram eq loads.)

Any miss with the birdshot is less likely to cause collateral damage. If the birdshot is feasible, a good load in the HD gun might be birdshot, birdshot, birdshot, then buckshot until full. If 3 rounds of birdshot at 20' or less doesn't stop the BG, then you have a serious problem, and you need several rounds of buckshot and should be worried less about strays at that point.

The birdshot load was argued for by some former LEOs. Anyone care to revisit this issue?

Danny

[camslam]

I'll throw in my 2 cents even though this has been covered numerous times.

If 3 rounds of birdshot at 20' or less doesn't stop the BG, then you have a serious problem, and you need several rounds of buckshot and should be worried less about strays at that point.

Therein lies your problem with birdshot. It will make messy wounds, but what is the bad guy or bad guys doing between the shots they are being hit with?

Probably something you don't want them to do. Obviously being shot at will scare most people away, but there are those determined souls out there that need more than just gentle persuasion. That is why I load 3" 00 buckshot in my home defense shotty. Obviously penetraion isn't going to be problem and with 15 pellets about the size of 9mm ammo, I would think it will get the job done.

[Feanaro]

This is all I know: I wouldn't use birdshot to stop a charging buck. I wouldn't use birdshot to kill a deer, period. I see no reason to use it on a human.

00 buck and low recoil slugs for me.

[dmarbell]

I understand those responses. However...

At a max distance of 20', the birdshot is going to have a pattern just a bit bigger than a slug. People would use a slug to stop BGs and deer. Let's keep the discussion to 20' or less. What will the bad guy do between shots if I hit her (yuk, yuk) with 3 shots of # 9s at 20'?

Danny

[K9american]

Federal Classic 2 3/4" #1 Buck. F127. :banghead:

End of story. :cool:

[Bix]

Buckshot would penetrate better, but both would deliver a powerful blow in terms of ft-lbs. At 20', I think the birdshot would deliver a rather devastating blow, and would be enough to stop almost any human intruder.

;) Start here:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

[K9american]

:cool: Then go here: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

[Leadhead]

I think the whole home defence thing is related to the threat level in your area.
I don't feel the need to keep guns loaded at the ready where I live so I would feel safe with a gun loaded with bird shot as it is more effective then an empty chamber!

If I lived in a hostile area where people were getting killed or invaded on a regular basis I would load for max. stopping power and not use bird shot.....but I would also consider moving to a more pleasant enviroment.

[One of Many]

Why is it that when people see 'bird shot' that all they think of is #9 shotshells, and when the see 'buckshot' all they think of is #00?

There is a range of shot sizes available, that can reduce wall penetration without sacrificing effectiveness at close range against a human target.

As has already been mentioned, there will be very little if any spread at interior room distances in the average home; the shot may not even get out of the protective cup at very close range. Yet that shot will not act like a cohesive mass when penetrating walls, making it less destructive to persons in another room.

Has anyone evaluated the pentration effect of shot sizes in the #4 - #6 range against ballistic jell, and through typical interior wall constuction? That information would be useful for objective analysis, rather that the subjective approach usually observed during discussions of this matter.

[RNB65]

Anyone care to revisit this issue?

Nope. 00Buck. Nuff said.

[Steve C]

There's been plenty of bad guys killed by bird shot in house situations. Use it if that's all you have though a load of 4's is probably better than a load of 8's and BB's are better yet. Hevi shot from Dead coyote should be very effective as a defense load.

Larger shot gives you a longer range and probably isn't any more effective in close quarters. In most self defense situations you are not totally in control of circumstances so why limit your range as you may find you need to engage a target outside the house? An example of this could be a family member being assaulted in front of the residence.

The spread of shot at house ranges is too small and you still need to aim for shot placement.

[Bix]

Has anyone evaluated the pentration effect of shot sizes in the #4 - #6 range against ballistic jell, and through typical interior wall constuction? That information would be useful for objective analysis, rather that the subjective approach usually observed during discussions of this matter

From the link offered in post #7:

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.


Detailed gelatin testing here:

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

From the above, it seems that if one is aiming for 12 inches of penetration in standard ordinance gelatin, one should not be using birdshot.

[Titan6]

Hollow Point Slugs. Show me the bad guy who got up after taking two slugs COM and I will reconsider.