[Oleg Volk]

http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/21192-1/iceman6898.jpg

Whatcha gonna do when he comes to ice you? :D

[kd7nqb]

I love all your work but I dont get this one?

[Bazooka Joe71]

Me either.:confused:

[General Geoff]

His vest says "Ice." Get it? :D

[Titan6]

Who is he looking at through that long scope in CQB? :D

[waterhouse]

personally I prefer the flip flops :D

[GhostlyKarliion]

oooooooh, the vest, covering the pol...

very creative oleg!

[Geronimo45]

Who is he looking at through that long scope in CQB?

Elian Gonzales?

[RNB65]

That certainly is a very proud optic he's got there. :)

[Cannonball888]

Who is he looking at through that long scope in CQB?
A 0.5" tall perpetrator?
Or maybe the scope is reversed so a large perp standing only 2 yards from him seems more distant. :D

[ozwyn]

urban smurf hunter. dang little blue bastages

[Kali Endgame]

I was kidding, lighten up.

[hso]

"Shoes" is a tongue and cheek offering for the folks that fixated on the footwear of the young woman in Oleg's previous offering.:rolleyes:

[helpless]

Those helmets scare me.

[Dravur]

Is the red on his knees from the murder of our Rights or of the innocents?

It's from photoshop.....
:rolleyes:

[pcosmar]

I enjoy all your work, I think I "get it".
Religious belief...check
Mistrust of Government...check
Supports Constitution...check
Supports 2nd amendment...check

Your score is 70%
Congratulations, you are a domestic terrorist. Well, at least you are according to the US government. Consider turning yourself in to your local authorities. There are FBI offices all around they country and they would like to talk to you. Pack your bags for Gitmo because the government doesn't like you.

[Mumwaldee]

Is the red on his knees from the murder of our Rights or of the innocents?

Those are the laser sights of "un'Amercun terrists" who have been taught to knee-cap the JBTs so 2 of his buddies have to drag him away, thus taking 3 oppressors out of the action. ;)

[hso]

Lets not hijack the thread, please.

[RubenZ]

HiJack the thread? This thread was pointless the minute the title was put in LOL.

[Oleg Volk]

He has a 1-4x variable scope set to 1x. The device in front in night vision. The man shown in the photo is very much on our side and pro-RKBA. If you were searching for a perp in a building, you'd want protective gear also.

[ArfinGreebly]

Or possibly . . .

. . . in another context:

Isn't INS now called ICE?

[Correia]

ICE = Immigration Customs Enforcement. It is the DHS department that merged Customs and Immigration.

I'm shocked to see the whiner contingent out in full force. Because you know, black guns and armor are scary, and if somebody has a black gun and armor, they can only have those things to tromple your rights, and now you can get your rant on about the jack booted thuggery of our police state, and then you can all cry together about how you love freedom and then pat yourselves on the back about how awesome you are.

When the guy in the picture actually goes out after work and is an RKBA activist.

:rolleyes:

[Dave Dembinski]

No flip-flops? Oh well, still a very cool photo. ;)

[Ian]

Doesn't the NOD need to be mounted behind the scope, rather than in front of it?

And to answer the question...I would plan to not be there. :)

[pcosmar]

When the guy in the picture actually goes out after work and is an RKBA activist.
That may well be. I do not know the man in the picture.
I mean no offense to Oleg, But the image reminds me of an enforcer (of Government) rather than a protector of liberty.
It brings other images to mind.
http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/uniforms2/ss-sgt-sparke.jpg
http://www.germaniainternational.com/images/sipoclubcrimcommcontrol08.jpg

[Justin]

Is the red on his knees from the murder of our Rights or of the innocents?

That is possibly the most asinine thing posted on this forum this morning.

[Correia]

Pcosmar, I've got pictures of US GIs doing their job wearing helmets that look just like that. And ACU is basically digital flectarn. Big fricking whoop. Are our guys bad too because their dress offends you?

You got a point, or are you just throwing Godwin's Law early to get it out of the way?

You guys sound like a bunch of shrill pathetic brady bunchers, assigning motive and emotions to gear.

He must be a jack booted operative of the police state. Why? Because he makes me feel scared.

Give me a break.

[Oleg Volk]

The reason for insignia on uniforms is that all military kits are basically similar. Form follows function. As for "police" being Gestapo or Peace Officers -- they are your local cops, you and your friends can influence them. Why do Idaho cops act differently from NYC cops?

[pcosmar]

Correia, I have no problem with GIs dressed in battle gear.
Battle gear is for the battlefield, not in American Cities.
He must be a jack booted operative of the police state. Why?
History, Years and years of history.

[Geronimo45]

The reason for insignia on uniforms is that all military kits are basically similar. Form follows function.

Also... I've noticed that WWI-era military uniforms (for officers, anyway) seem to closely resemble the police rigs of the years afterwards. The cops can and do follow the military.

Of course, you could complain that the UPS man looks too darn much like a FBI agent or a guy from Blackwater.

That 'Iceman' business just reminded me of the raid on Elian down in Florida (by ICE), and the famous picture there. No insults meant.

[Carl N. Brown]

I remember having an ice box on the back porch of my
home when I was a kid. We already had a refrigerator by
then and the ice box was used to store old toys, making
the back porch a nice place to be on a rainy afternoon.

But why does the iceman need all that tactical gear?
Is he delievring ice in a really bad neighborhood?

[Correia]

Battle gear is for the battlefield, not in American Cities. And a gun fight is a gun fight, and form follows function. A bullet in Faluja doesn't hit you any different than a bullet in Fresno. If I've got a real high probability of getting into a gun fight, then I'm gonna dress a certain way. A helmet keeps my brains from getting blown out. A vest keeps my major organs from having holes put in them.

Do I really need to explain to you how an AR15 is just a rifle? This is a gun forum afterall.

And most cops don't dress that way except for special occasions, i.e. I think there's a good chance I'm gonna get in a gunfight today. Mostly because helmets are uncomfortable, big vests are hot, and it tends to get people's panties in a wad on the internet. :rolleyes:

History, Years and years of history. Because in the good ol' days, your local law enforcement used to get "undesirables" and beat them to within an inch of their life, and throw them unconscious onto a passing boxcar, so that they become the next town's problem.

Now you have a camera on your car. Every word you say is recorded. Most departments have an IA division to investigate any allegations of wrong doing against you, and you can, and will be sued.

I'm not saying that bad cops don't exist, or that some policies (federal and local) aren't very very bad.

But this knee jerk, asinine, every time you see a cop you whip out this Pavlovian panic attack has got to stop. It is annoying and it makes our entire side look like a bunch of paranoid fanatics.

[Correia]

Besides, if this guy was ICE, then he would be the guy deporting illegals, which seems to be the other major topic that everybody on this forum likes to throw fits about.

And I don't know why ICE would need armor and rifles, because dealing with illegal alien drug smugglers wouldn't be dangerous at all, and you should just treat them nice, and dress like Officer Friendly. :rolleyes:

A good buddy of mine is an ICE team commander. He's the guy that actually arrests bad people, does customs investigations, and deports people. The political failings of his employer have nothing to do with him or his guys as individuals. In fact he is on our side, as are all of his team that I've ever spoken with.

So hey, we better start accusing them of swimming in the blood of innocents. We should mock the good cops on our side, whenever possible. We should drive wedges between us. Whatever we can do to pat our selves on the back about how awesome we are because we love freedom more.

[Titan6]

Well said Corriea. The constant cop bashing on this site annoys me at times. Does anyone here think that helmets and vests and assault rifles should be banned? Okay assault rifles are practically banned already but does anyone think the ban should continue?

You people who are scared of the police because of protective gear are as irrational as the Brady's...

[ozwyn]

besides, those damned smurfs are into bayonet charges these days... and they have just enough reach to aim for the jewels......

(which is about as close to serious as this thread actually needs to be imo)

[Heavy Metal Hero]

"Shoes" is a tongue and cheek offering for the folks that fixated on the footwear of the young woman in Oleg's previous offering.

Me. :neener:

[damien]

Where does Oleg get such wonderful toys?

[skinnyguy]

Oleg, nice pic, very intense. Keep them coming - regardless of what your detractors are saying. I'm sure you have many more fans than naysayers here.

Correia, I agree with everything you've said in this thread.

Whiners, HUSH!!

[Master Blaster]

Those are Jackboots, not shoes.

[Mark_from_Iowa]

+1000 Correia

[Correia]

Those are Jackboots, not shoes.

Cute. And you know that, how?

Because he's got guns, and armor, and that makes you scared?

[Justin]

Google Image Search:

Jackboots. (http://images.google.com/images?svnum=50&q=jackboots&btnG=Search+Images)

[HardKnox]

i think the only real problem here is that he has no BUIS!!!!111oneone

whats he gonna do if he catches a bullet in the scope???///OH TEH NOES

[Oleg Volk]

BUIS <--his pistol

[Kali Endgame]

That is possibly the most asinine thing posted on this forum this morning.

Glad I could make your day worthwhile.

Yes, I was only kidding. And, hso eddited my post, so no harm, no foul.

[Mumwaldee]

It's not fear...it's anger. Funny accusation coming from those that support the "appearance of security" over freedom.

[def4pos8]

Oleg! You caved!! Flip-flops!!! Where are the flip-flops???!!! :neener:

[Gifted]

It looks like it doesn't just say "ICE" Looks like his arm is blocking the "POL" with just a bit of the "L" visible.

[merk]

It looks like it doesn't just say "ICE" Looks like his arm is blocking the "POL" with just a bit of the "L" visible.

:D:D:D:D:D:D

[oldcop1971]

Correia, for your support of the police, and shame on all of you cop-bashers who instantly assume that all police are bad, or corrupt or JBT's.

[Arkie]

Hey there Oleg!!!

Nice photo! Keep them coming. I like what you do.

Hi Correia!!! How's it going?

[Mumwaldee]

Yeah...shame on us.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/637859.html


...
Ryan Mills knows the cost of posting a photo that unsettled police.

Mills, 21, posed on Facebook with friends and high-powered guns. A deputy sheriff ended up shooting to death Mills' friend Peyton Strickland, an 18-year-old college student from Durham, during a botched raid in December in Wilmington. A grand jury decided last week that the deputy, who said he expected heavily armed resistance based on the Facebook picture, should not be indicted for fatally shooting an unarmed Strickland through the door.

University of North Carolina-Wilmington police and sheriff's deputies had gone to the Wilmington home of Strickland, a student at Cape Fear Community College, looking for a PlayStation 3 video game machine they suspected he and Mills stole.

Police feared that the guns pictured with Mills were in Strickland's house. Christopher Long, the deputy who shot Strickland, carried a .45-caliber submachine gun, a .45-caliber pistol, two extra pistol magazines, two extra sub gun magazines, a gas mask, a knife and a flash bang grenade, according to court records.
...

If they do this over pics on myspace wait til they find out about.../gasp gun forums.

[Correia]

Good for you, Mumwaldee. You were able to take a story, where the cops may or may not have done anything wrong, with no real details, no actual knowledge of the events, or knowledge if the shooting was justified, (grand jury didn't indict him, which you didn't bother to bold) and you managed to tack it on there, even though it isn't related to the guy in Oleg's picture at all.

Then you highlight the fact he had GASP two spare magazines for his gun. Shocking! Shocking I say! Wait, let me check. Oh MY GOSH! I have two spare magazines for my .45 also! OH NOEs! Wait, I've got TWO! Yes TWO knives! On me! Right now. I'm far more jackbooted that this cop!

And if I was working with a long gun, I would probably have spare mags for it too.

Gas mask? Did they plan on using gas? Then gas masks usually kind of help, what with the breathing and whatnot. And a flash bang? Imagine the evil that could be caused with such a thing. And the fact that he had this stuff, oh, on his vest, which has pockets to carry that stuff. Stunning.

Wait, the paper said the raid was botched? Why? Because the paper said so? Yes, because news papers never get anything wrong, or have any sort of bias. (unless they disagree with you, then they're communist scum). Never mind that. Moving on.

So the cops have a ROBBERY suspect. They gather intel on the suspect. They come up with the fact that this robbery suspect has lots of weapons. So they go prepared. And since we don't know what happened to cause the shooting... hmm... NEVER MIND THAT! HE HAD A GAS MASK! BURN HIM!

Golf clap for you.

Now why don't you go find some pictures of nazis or something to post, and we'll have brought this thread full circle. Then you can proclaim Checkmate! For you've defended freedom today!

HOO RAY for Mumwaldee! He won the internet!

[yy]

Oleg: I missed the connection between the thread title and the picture. Safe shoes and Iceman?

Correia: I also missed the point of the flammable back and forths about cop bashing. I thought Oleg's posters usually have to do with "when government runs amuk, who will protect you if not you?" kind of theme? What I am saying is, in that rum-amuk kind of sense, aren't the cop bashers agreeing with the warning in the poster - "the ice man is coming to get you?"

Bashers: I further missed how a grafiti-like "iceman cometh" tag on the poster suggests the person in the poster is coming to reap us instead of rescue us.

[RancidSumo]

I want that gun

[Correia]

YY, see my earlier posts in this thread. I'm just sick and tired of the whiner brigade taking over every thread. They don't actually do anything to help solve the problem (and oh yeah, believe me, I know there's a problem too) but they're always on hand to send L&P flaming down the toilet into one giant gripefest about how picked on they are.

[ziadel]

Why do Idaho cops act differently from NYC cops?

Um. because people in Idaho have guns, and have access to them at all times?

I'm not supporting the Godwin argument, but I think that as long as ANY police officers enforce unconstitutional laws, there will be resentment towards ALL police officers. :(

[Oleg Volk]

The shoe comment was an in-joke for people who complained about flip-flops in the previous shot. Now they dislike the protective gear instead of lack of protective gear. Can I win?

[Mumwaldee]

HOO RAY for Mumwaldee! He won the internet!

Thank you! Thank you!

Since I'm a fan of the downtrodden and abused, I think I shall now start a campaign bringing to light the oppression of the modern law enforcement officer.:scrutiny:

[Justin]

And all in a thread dedicated to a photograph of a cop.

Awesome.

[buzz_knox]

There's a major problem with target identification via the internet. Some will see a cop and begin attacking without identifying friend or foe. Others will see a cop and begin defending, without doing the same check.

[Correia]

Checked. Friend of Olegs. Good guy. RKBA activist.

But this is L&P afterall. So we better lynch him.

I'm not supporting the Godwin argument, but I think that as long as ANY police officers enforce unconstitutional laws, there will be resentment towards ALL police officers.

So to parapharase, as long as any members of one group do something bad, then we will resent all of that group?

As long as any gun owner is a crazy, redneck whackadoo, then they're all whackadoos?

Okay, makes sense in an L&P kind of way...

[buzz_knox]

Checked. Friend of Olegs. Good guy. RKBA activist.

But this is L&P afterall. So we better lynch him.

Correia

It was just a general observation, not based on this thread per se. In this thread, one side showed its posterior. In other threads, the other side (or usually both) do so.

[yy]

I understand the reference now.


And I also see and resent the same trend. It's like some posters are playing a one-ups-man game to see who can out bash the most.



Here's a challenge: when was the last time any of us in this thread went on a ride-a-long? Can we really decry police abuses if the closest thing we experienced was the last episode of COP show?

[KelVarnson]

...should not be indicted for fatally shooting an unarmed Strickland through the door.

Through a closed door? How do you get away with that?

And if you are not alarmed by the deputy basing the threat level on a Facebook picture, then consider how many members here have posted photos of themselves and their friends with various high-powered weapons. No difference, really. In fact, LEOs might assume a larger threat from a "gun nut", who may have more weapons and be likely more skilled with them that the average punk with a Glock, posting on Facebook.

I didin't get the impression from Mumwaldee's post that he was indicting all cops, but rather pointing out that they are not necessarily all good, all the time.

[Heavy Metal Hero]

Then you highlight the fact he had GASP two spare magazines for his gun. Shocking! Shocking I say! Wait, let me check. Oh MY GOSH! I have two spare magazines for my .45 also! OH NOEs! Wait, I've got TWO! Yes TWO knives! On me! Right now. I'm far more jackbooted that this cop!

Way to take the High Road Correia...

Can I win?

You already have!

[Correia]

No Heavy Metal. It isn't about taking The High Road. It is about taking The High Road BACK.

I'm done tolerating nonsense. We built this board to be one thing, and I've got a contingent of people trying to turn it into something else. We didn't make L&P for it to be a giant shrieking whinefest. We created it to motivate the people already on our side to action, and to sway the undecided.

It currently isn't accomplishing that mission.

[Malone LaVeigh]

Inside references aside, I'm still confused.

The way I read it, the point is we should be able to be armed for when the "iceman" comes to "ice" us. That sounds like a pretty strong message against militarized police repression to me. But the detractors are complaining that it's pro-police, and others are attacking the detractors for being too anti-police.

Like I said, I'm confused. But I think that a poster that has to be explained is not an effective one...

[Heavy Metal Hero]

We didn't make L&P for it to be a giant shrieking whinefest.

No offense, but you are doing a lot of whining yourself.

We created it to motivate the people already on our side to action, and to sway the undecided.

Then call them on being OT. Having a pissing match isn't going to help.


With that said, I am staying out of this conflict of opinion.

[Correia]

No offense, but you are doing a lot of whining yourself. Not the first time I've been accused of that in L&P. In fact, any time you point out asinine behavior (automatically throwing up pictures of nazis, and having a patrick Henry soundbyte contest) you're a whiner.

(don't believe me, go back and read this thread, go read any other thread where cops come up as a topic. Tell me how those threads further the mission of THR).

Okay, whatever. At least I know that I go out and do stuff about this topic, other than talk about it on the internet.

I posted a huge list of things people could do to help on this issue, but that got shot down, because it was too hard. Go figure. We would rather sit here, at each other's throats and complain about the sound of jackboots. Then we'll mock anybody who is different than us, until they leave THR.

We've managed to chase off most of members who are cops. Explain to me how that helps the mission of THR?

But I guess by saying that, I'm a whiner. Whatever.

Then call them on being OT. Having a pissing match isn't going to help. Careful what you wish for. If it were my choice, there would be zero threads in L&P at all that didn't related only to guns, and a very narrow focus at that. Nothing else. Nada. Illegal immigration? Nope. Drugs? Nope. Arguments about candidates? Only their stance on guns. Period. Nothing else.

This is in general, but it is a spill over from a previous thread in L&P where I was having this same discussion, with the same group of people.

[Oleg Volk]

It was not meant to be anything but an in-joke and a pun. I did not think it would be taken seriously.

[Heavy Metal Hero]

In fact, any time you point out asinine behavior you're a whiner.

Other Mods seem to have no problem calling a spade a spade without sounding l33t.

At least I know that I go out and do stuff about this topic, other than talk about it on the internet.

I thank you, but I am sure you are not alone.

I posted a huge list of things people could do to help on this issue, but that got shot down, because it was too hard.

Could you PM me with the link to this list? (unless it is a sticky; I will check)

We've managed to chase off most of members who are cops. Explain to me how that helps the mission of THR?


It doesn't, you're right. I don't personally agree with a lot of the cop bashing here but that doesn't mean I will have a temper tantrum when someone mentions it. You (maybe not you as a mod) have a right not to read threads or posts that are offensive in this way.

But I guess by saying that, I'm a whiner. Whatever.

What's with the attitude? Don't take it personally I was just telling you how you are coming across to me. If you felt insulted you should contact me via a PM.

Careful what you wish for. If it were my choice, there would be zero threads in L&P at all that didn't related only to guns, and a very narrow focus at that. Nothing else. Nada. Illegal immigration? Nope. Drugs? Nope. Arguments about candidates? Only their stance on guns. Period. Nothing else.

If you really want to be that black and white about it then fine.

This is in general, but it is a spill over from a previous thread in L&P where I was having this same discussion, with the same group of people.

Politely tell them that this is not the place. :)

I did not think it would be taken seriously.

Oleg is right, jokes are supposed to be funny. Besides, at least he is wearing shoes.

[Hatchett]

If he lifted his elbow a little he'd be the LICE man, and nobody wants that.

[Tharg]

wow - many woops to Coreia - and i mean MANY.

That being said - i'm hurt - dissapointed, even feel a bit estranged from some of my geekish following, who somehow... did NOT photoshop a pair of flip flops on that picture (grin) (or worse - a pretty woman on those boots...)

Good work Oleg, as usual :)

edit: oh wait... i'm sorry Oleg, you meant this thread to be serious? (snicker - just jokin) in some ways this board is different than (omg) four years ago. Lets keep on track people =) THR, you know - the people who don't freak out because someone said gun... (or omg had one) Sound, earthed people, who can tell a joke from sexual harassment, people who have water that flows off a ducks back, not soaking the duck. People with common sense. Least, thats what i'm used to on here even if i don't post every day :)

to all - take care! Be good, and if you can't... be good at it.

J/Tharg

Edit X 2 - this is actually my 4 year anniversary on here... wow... now thats a co-ink-a-dink

[Heavy Metal Hero]

That being said - i'm hurt - dissapointed, even feel a bit estranged from some of my geekish following, who somehow... did NOT photoshop a pair of flip flops on that picture (grin) (or worse - a pretty woman on those boots...)

If I knew what I was doing it would have been done.

[hrgrisso]

I used to help a buddy who managed an apartment complex and I'd help him clean up after problem tenents left. Usually a mess. Sometimes we'd so a quick walk through before going to work cleaning. I walked through the room and I often just felt dirty for having been there, not even touching stuff.

I have to be honest that I feel that way after reading three pages of this stuff... :what:

I think it's time to take it down a notch!

Oleg, I didn't moan about the flip-flops (we called them thongs when I was a kid but I guess you can't now...) before and I got the joke... Of course, I also tried reading things into it and didn't get anywhere quickly...

Correia, I think you made some very good points. I agree with Heavy Metal Hero, please PM me the list, I'm not sure where to find it. A few comments could have been edited but yeah I lose my temper sometimes too. If we're high road, we move past the issues.

As for LEO's... I try and get out and meet my local PD's. Many are not receptive or friendly but they are very polite. The Feds (mostly BP) are VERY FRIENDLY, those that aren't, are VERY NOT! But no mass judgment, everyone should know that's what the other side does..

My complaint has always been the laws not necessarily those enforcing them...

Oleg YOU WON LONG AGO! Keep it up!

[Correia]

It doesn't, you're right. I don't personally agree with a lot of the cop bashing here but that doesn't mean I will have a temper tantrum when someone mentions it. You (maybe not you as a mod) have a right not to read threads or posts that are offensive in this way. Heavy Metal, dude. I'm afraid I've just reach that point of massive frustration. I've tried being nice for five years now, and instead of improving, the board has slid further and further from what we set out to create. And it has been at the expense of a lot of really good people who've been run off. And it makes me sad, and I guess I'm just tired and grumpy of seeing the same old bashing nonsense on every thread.

[ziadel]

So to parapharase, as long as any members of one group do something bad, then we will resent all of that group?

As long as any gun owner is a crazy, redneck whackadoo, then they're all whackadoos?



No, we're not resenting all cops because some of them are obvious bad apples. I think that the resent towards all LEO's stems from the fact that the good cops are not doing nearly enough to clean up the bad apples in their own house. When was the last time you heard a police officer publicly condemn the actions of a obvious bad seed on the police force? It doesn't happen often, if at all. Instead we hear stories about departments covering things up and generally conducting themselves in a distasteful manner. Whenever one gun owner does something stupid, we're very quick to publicly condemn or counsel him as the situation dictates. This is a very touchy subject and rightfully so, noone likes to be victimized. There is simply not enough. I do acknowledge that police officers do a dangerous and thankless job, but that's not a license to break the law, as many do.

Correia, things have'nt improved in five years, that's very true. But is that because of some problem with society? Or is it because every year the number of outrageous police incidents grows?

If police officers want to gain back their reputations, they need to start policing themselves a little better instead of just being another source of revenue for the government. There are blatant lies painted on every cop car. "To protect and serve" We all know they're not obligated to protect us, and they're not serving with my best interest in mind. All that they really do is protect each other. So, again, until they start honoring the oaths they swore to uphold and defend the constitution, public sentiment will be against them all. Even the ones who do uphold the constitution because they're just not doing enough to combat the obvious bad apples. It's sad, I agree, but how can you blame the public for how they feel? Theres ample reason for people to feel the way they do.


There needs to be more accountability. No one takes resposibility.

[Nematocyst]

Wow.

How'd I miss this one (until just now)
where heavy weight contenders (http://www.ifl.tv/)
have come out to play?

It is about taking The High Road BACK.I'm reading ... and learning ... and not even thinking about whining ...

"Are you ready to rumble?" :evil: :cool:

I did not think it would be taken seriously.Just goes to show the power of imagery, Oleg.

Suggestion: shoot another version of that ice image,
but with a Marlin 1894C in .357 Mag, cowboy hat and boots.

It'll appeal to another whole group ...

[DRZinn]

The identity of the actual individual who posed for the photograph is irrelevant. The picture is of A Police Officer. Or perhaps A Government Agent. Or A Jackbooted Thug. Depending on how you see it. But the same way some of Oleg's friends have depicted muggers and thieves for the purposes of pictures and thus have become "bad guys" in those pictures, if the picture depicts a bad guy, then he's a bad guy, even if it's Preacherman who posed.

[Correia]

But Drzinn, what makes him a badguy in that picture?

Read my earlier post in this thread. The guy is in uniform and has a gun. So automatically people start putting up pictures of nazis, talking about jackboots, and how the red on his knees is from the blood of the innocent. They fall into the same trap as the Brady bunch, equatting hardware with good or evil. It makes us sound like a bunch of shrill paranoids.

It is more like one of those tests where a shrink shows you a picture of some ink blots. (Rorsharch? beats me, I hated Psych 101) It isn't about what the picture is of, it is about what the viewer is.

3/4 of the posts degenerate into meaningless soundbytes about who is more picked on. How does this benefit THR? How does this benefit our community? How does this help our mission?

It doesn't. And I'm just tired of it. And I don't get to pick and choose what I read. I'm supposed to read them all. And we're also the people that get PMs and e-mails every day, from long time members who are disgusted with the state of the board, and the knee-jerk reactionary comments FROM BOTH SIDES.

[11b4v]

ziadel,

Where's the facts that the Police arent policing themselves? Let's see some numbers please. For everything you could post that they're not, I could post they are. Duluth Ga. just hooked up a DeKalb Co. PD officer for DUI this weekend, saw it on the news myself. There, Im one up on ya. Legally, Police persons have less rights than you. I think you speak more from perception. I too have had a couple incidents with law enforcement that I feel were less than positive, but I wont bash the profession. When I need a cop / dial 911, no ziadel's are coming to help are they?

Chew on this. Factually, the medical profession kills more people through malpractice, incompetence, etc. Try getting a complaint in on a doctor. Where's that form in the hospital lobby.

"More accountability, no one takes responsibility" Is that just for Cops, or us all? Unless it's coming from my parents or my clergy, this chaps my ass. You can go waste bandwith at the Democaticunderground with that. I believe most here at THR have already learned this lesson, and are actively living it. You ever take an oath? just wondering who you are. Look into whether your local LE department has a Citizens Police Academy, Ride A Long program, or Reserve / Auxillary. I know you have a busy schedule, but dont we all?

Reference the shooting incident posted in this thread, the facts are not fully presented, never are/will be if given by the media, and a Judge / Jury-our peers, have made judgment. If they are all wrong, let it show in the appeal.

Correia; thanks for taking the high road! The cop-bashing is everywhere and it's just plain ugly; ASSaultWeb, ARFbomb, SigF'm, etc. are all domintated by cop bashers in my opinion. It's very tiring. I hate to see it here as well. Maybe we can bump into each other at Oleg's one day. Luckily, given my creds, I can go to Lightfighter.net, or ArmyRanger.com and not have to see cop-bashing threads.

As for Oleg's model in the pic, he has said many times over a pint of Guinness that he's a Citizen first, a Soldier second (MSG, 21years Active/Reserve, wounded combat veteran-Ranger) and a cop third. He's a member of the NRA, votes Gun Rights first, and is the only one on his street who flys the American flag.

One more thing, those are Made in the USA Danners in dire need of resoling.

[Mumwaldee]

I'm confused...so THR is for militarized police?

http://www.a-human-right.com/s_grenades.jpg

[Correia]

I'm confused...so THR is for militarized police?

No. THR is a place for people to discuss stuff like rational adults.

I don't care what side you're on, and I'm willing to bet I've got more legitimate gripes about bad cops than you ever will. And it isn't about just cops, it is about how every topic descends into a pit of stupid bashing.

[Mumwaldee]

Well, Oleg likes to share provocative photos...this one just happens to include a police officer...that appears to be dressed in a military fashion...if we aren't going to discuss it in THIS thread then where would we? I don't see people yelling "F tha police!!!1!!" in this thread or in other threads that have nothing to do with law enforcement.

In my mind, a militarized police force practicing no knock warrants is a freedom loving gun owner's worst nightmare. I remember something about being vigilant to preserve freedom...

[Oleg Volk]

I am all for cops having tanks and rockets -- as long as I get the same gear. Parity is important. We do not have parity now. At least we can try to bring cops and the military to our side instead of having them do the bidding of the statists.

Statists know that's a possibility, so they try to root out those disloyal to them. That is why you don't see many public statements on politics from cops in uniform -- it is against their terms of employment. Do you want vocal pro-RKBA cops off the force or would you rather they kept a low profile, kept their jobs and did what they can to frustrate the plans of their political commanders?

[Mumwaldee]

I only see one thing coming from the widespread militarization of police forces...and it's not a win for the RKBA crowd.

I'm not anti-police or a "love it or leave it" type either...I don't care what their terms of employment are...I think if they have integrity they will speak out against the ever increasing number of "isolated incidents" of abuse and cover up. It needs to be reigned in.

And if people are complaining more and louder than ever before then it certainly must be a serious point of contention that could erupt into something else if not addressed sooner rather than later.

Someone is always jabbering about "if the only tool you have in the toolbox is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail". Well, the militarized police have the hammer.

The Japanese, who have traded nearly all their freedom for security, have a saying also "the nail that stands up gets hammered down". It's about conformity and not making waves. It seems to be the direction we're headed.

[Correia]

You don't seem to get it. The problem isn't what you believe. It is how you present your argument.

The mods aren't happy about snide comments, snippy lines, soundbytes, random pictures of nazis, and inflammatory comments designed to provoke arguments. We aren't happy about serious topics degenerating. These things need to be discussed. Problems need to be faced.

So you see a picture of a cop. You freak out. You post a bunch of nonsense. How does that help anything? It doesn't, it lowers the IQ of the board a couple of points while more people come into the thread and freak out.

And then, at the end of the day, the people that you need to sway are gone. The good guys who happen to have a job you dislike are gone. And then you can stand here with a bunch of other do nothings, and slap yourselves on the back about how you raised awareness.

[Heavy Metal Hero]

I'm afraid I've just reach that point of massive frustration.

'Nuff said. :)


And since when did wearing jack boots make you a JBT? Does my AK make me a commie or a terrorist?

[Mumwaldee]

You don't seem to get it. The problem isn't what you believe. It is how you present your argument.

The mods aren't happy about snide comments, snippy lines, soundbytes, random pictures of nazis, and inflammatory comments designed to provoke arguments. We aren't happy about serious topics degenerating. These things need to be discussed. Problems need to be faced.

So you see a picture of a cop. You freak out. You post a bunch of nonsense. How does that help anything? It doesn't, it lowers the IQ of the board a couple of points while more people come into the thread and freak out.

And then, at the end of the day, the people that you need to sway are gone. The good guys who happen to have a job you dislike are gone. And then you can stand here with a bunch of other do nothings, and slap yourselves on the back about how you raised awareness.

I get it just fine. I didn't "freak out" or "talk nonsense". I am only responsible for myself. You are the one that makes whiny personal attacks and implies that people are scared of the JBT's when they are clearly angry. If you think my comments lower the IQ of the board then either you don't think much of the audience or you wish I wouldn't post here. Doesn't make me any difference either way. I'm not an apologist for militarized police, but then again I don't make my living selling tacticool gear to them.

[Correia]

I'm not an apologist for militarized police, but then again I don't make my living selling tacticool gear to them. :rolleyes:

Yep, I also sell the EXACT SAME GEAR to regular people. And I've put in a lot of hours to make sure it legally stays that way.

[Mumwaldee]

Make sure you spout off some more of your rhetoric before you lock the thread. The rest of you will know what I'm talking about when the "iceman" and his crew are outside your house at 3A.M. for some trumped up charge.

[Oleg Volk]

From the forum rules: "You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer."

[Correia]

Still open Mum. And I didn't ban you after you dared me to in the last thread either, so I must not be real interested in trampling your 1st amendment rights.

[ziadel]

When I need a cop / dial 911, no ziadel's are coming to help are they?

Chew on this. Factually, the medical profession kills more people through malpractice, incompetence, etc. Try getting a complaint in on a doctor. Where's that form in the hospital lobby.

"More accountability, no one takes responsibility" Is that just for Cops, or us all? Unless it's coming from my parents or my clergy, this chaps my ass. You can go waste bandwith at the Democaticunderground with that. I believe most here at THR have already learned this lesson, and are actively living it. You ever take an oath? just wondering who you are. Look into whether your local LE department has a Citizens Police Academy, Ride A Long program, or Reserve / Auxillary. I know you have a busy schedule, but dont we all?

Reference the shooting incident posted in this thread, the facts are not fully presented, never are/will be if given by the media, and a Judge / Jury-our peers, have made judgment. If they are all wrong, let it show in the appeal.



Since when you dial 911 it doesnt come to my phone, I dont see what this has to do with anything? I'd gladly assist anyone in need, and I've done so. and I have recently filed complainmts about a doctor, and I have to say the proicess was much easier and more pleasant than that time I tried filing a report on a NY state trooper.

I'm sorry that you feel my posts are wasting bandwith, but thankfully, it's not up to you to decide wether or not my posts are a waste. And what is this Democraticunderground nonsense? Are you insinuating that someone who sees shortcimings in our law enforcement officers is a democrat? I'm not sure exactly how to take that, but I do know who is wasting bandwith.

And yes, I have taken an oath, it was required of me, same oath to uphold and defend the constitution and the lawful orders of our commander in chief that the cops take, again, whats your point here? And I have gone for ride-alongs.

Listen, a judge and jury not sending a cop to jail when he/she does something abhorrent doesn't really sway me. The fact is that most of the time, cops are protected by the law of the land, and it is only in civil court that they get what they deserve. I should'nt really even say that as its the departments/cities that get raked over the coals, the offending officer is usually kept on the beat.

You don't know me from Adam. Don't think that you do. I don't have a busy schedule, and I don't see how I was cop-bashing, as you imply. Discussing the problems is not bashing.

[pcosmar]

Art is perception. The images will be interpreted by each individual.
My impression was my own, based on experience and opinion. I did not mean to bash cops though I disagree with policy as implemented.
To me, the image was not of my impression of a Peace Officer.
It may be that my perception was also colored by other artwork by Oleg.
http://www.a-human-right.com/s_takesome.JPG
http://www.a-human-right.com/s_grenades.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/s_monopoly.jpg
http://www.a-human-right.com/s_order.jpg
My apology if my opinion offended, It was only an opinion based on perception. The pictures I posted were what the image brought to my mind.

[budney]

It is more like one of those tests where a shrink shows you a picture of some ink blots. (Rorsharch? beats me, I hated Psych 101) It isn't about what the picture is of, it is about what the viewer is.

I was about to comment that Oleg's pictures are a kind of Rorshach test, but you beat me to it.


We didn't make L&P for it to be a giant shrieking whinefest. We created it to motivate the people already on our side to action, and to sway the undecided.

Hear hear! I can gripe about the world's injustices with the best of 'em, but I'd rather see something practical come out of the forum. Waiting for the revolution seems like an excuse for doing nothing.

--Len.

[Nematocyst]

The problem isn't what you believe. It is how you present your argument.IMO, with a slight modification, that is worthy of sig line status to make it applicable to all members in a generalized setting.

"Problems don't emerge from what one believes, but from how one presents an argument."
__________

IMO, if I may suggest: I think the subtopic of this thread - HOW to conduct an argument in a way that is conducive to the goals of THR, maximizing signal to noise ratios while avoiding ad hominem - is worthy of a thread of its own.

I'm not saying the discussion shouldn't continue it here, too, in this specific context.

But since this seems to pop up over and over, that "issues" v "how issues are discussed" thing needs a thorough treatment and discussion, and maybe even a sticky.

If we had a thread devoted to it, where all the mods and members can hash out the concept and work towards understanding of positions (first) and hopefully consensus (second), I suggest that it would reduce the numbers of serious, interesting, important threads degrading into bash fests.

Just a suggestion.

[ArfinGreebly]

Nem, I do wish I could agree.

Sadly, and speaking from personal experience with my OWN bouts of testosterone poisoning, there's really no way for us, as writers, to govern the "knob positions" on the other guy's -- the reader's -- emotional dials.

Just about the time you think you have a consensus, someone new comes along, sees something that "makes me angry" and with a fresh hormone dump, begins punching the caps on his keyboard to make it clear to one and all that "YOU CAN'T TALK TO ME LIKE THAT!"

And there goes the neighborhood.

Learning how to argue and remain civil is hard. Teaching it is harder.

Figuring out how to express your concerns without indulging in that priceless bit of sarcasm that you just know will cause the other guy to run off with his tail tucked, that's REALLY hard. Especially if you're smart and literate and eloquent and feeling just a little mean.

Man, I SO don't envy the mods their jobs.

There have got to be those times when they wrestle with themselves, "I should just kill him now. Just press the button. You know you want to. Give him a chance; he may learn from this. Learn WHAT exactly? He's a jerk and he's making us look bad, and I REALLY want to just ban the bastard. Come on, the quality of mercy is not strained, step back, take a deep breath. Remember, you used to be a hothead yourself. I was NEVER that big an ass! Relax, come on, let him grow up. Okay, dammit, but it's against my better judgement."

Is there, like, a "masochism index" test that mods take before they accept the job?

Police?

I've never, in all my years, ever met a cop that joined up so he could have power.

I've met my share of Attorneys General and other politicians who had exactly that problem.

The cops work for the politicians, but few of them actually consider that when they decide to "make a difference" in society.

The gear?

Yeah, when you're rigging for battle, then you want to have battle gear. Form follows function. Consequently it's gonna look . . . like battle gear.

The fix?

New mayors, new attorneys general, new councils. Maybe a few cops who have drunk their polluted kool-aid will need to be changed out.

All the cops I know and have known are relieved to discover that the citizen they're talking to is on their side.

Most of them would really rather not be a hard-ass. Kind of goes with a large slice of the job, though.

Oleg, man, you do have a knack.

[eltorrente]

This thread delivers!

[DRZinn]

But Drzinn, what makes him a badguy in that picture? Nothing, necessarily. It's a neutral picture. If you have a tendency to see cops as Jack-Booted Thugs, you see a picture of a Jack-Booted Thug. If you tend to see cops as Saviors of All that is Good and Holy, then that's what you see in the picture. I'm not saying the picture is of a bad guy, but you mentioned that the guy in the picture (meaning the actual person who posed for the picture) is "on our side," and an all-around stand-up guy, and my point is that that doesn't matter.

[Nematocyst]

Arf, I understand your point, and mostly agree.

But just to be clear about my point.

I harbor NO (zero, zilch, nada) illusions that such a generalized discussion about better ways to conduct arguments would end bashing, or necessarily even reduce it by a large percentage.

But how many threads have I seen degrade into bash fests over the last couple of years (speaking only for myself here, that's how long I've been around)? Dozens? Over a hundred? Something like that.

And every one requires the mods or someone to go through the same instruction proceedings: "It's not the issue, it's how we discuss the issue." Over and over and over.

My suggestion is simply, have a thread devoted to that very topic: how to discuss the issue, and sticky it; maybe even reference the sticky as <ahem> strongly suggested reading in the FAQ.

In addition, if after such a thread is going, when a mod encounters BIP (bashing in progress), offending members could be told to take ten deep breaths and go read the thread, then chill out for a couple of days (temporary suspension for cooling off?) before returning to the discussion.

Even if it only reduces descent into ad hominem by 10 or 20%, that's still a lot fewer admonishments that mods have to administer, and we might even increase Larry's life span by a few years by stress reduction.

I admit I could be wrong - it may make no difference at all - but there's only one way to know: test it.

Otherwise, we're just going to be having the same argument at the same level a year from now and a decade from now.

Nem

[silverlance]

I like good cops.
I hate bad cops.
Unfortunately, they look the same.
The Iceman could be a heroic figure fighting to protect and serve. Or, he could be a government thug disarming the citizenry.

No way to tell from a picture.

However, I'm not with you, Oleg.

I don't want citizens to have access to mortars, C4, or grenades. at least, not easy access - maybe something like the NFA forms.

However, I do believe that every law abiding citizen should have the right to own the exact same miltary service rifles that the army uses. same for armor.

i also believe that that is what the constitution intended as well.

[Tharg]

Sorry - its so sad that logical - emotion free dialog can't be conducted here... i expected it at every other site.. but thought that the "high road" could be better.. mostly cause when i first joined people acted like it WAS the high road... not "just another road"

i'd like to think that none of us has truely never been on "another board" so i find it frustrating that people don't get the premise.

I also find it frustrating that of the few cops/police/what the hell ever they want to be called... i've met ZERO "butts" and that i might add includes a very OBVIOUS DWI i was a very big part in 8 years ago... rofl. Not to mention the various other "normal" run ins i've had w/ LEO's.. speeding, they thought i was drunk.. etc etc... aka every stop i've ever had. I've yet to meet the mysitcal i'm so full of myself i must punish this mere mortal peon policeman.

its funny my new "partner" in crime as an (now) IT professional spent 9 years in the police force... and he is VERY willing to admit not all officers should be officers... its not for everyone.. and there are very few jobs for those self respecting i feel so little of myself that i can be a real prick in the police force so woot that they can be a part of. I'm sure they do thier best to weed those people out.. but c'mon - you people at ALL your jobs know that person who shouldn't be there... even tho you knew yer managment wasn't TRYING to hire someone useless :P And i'd be willing to bet some of those people who shouldn't be there are still there.

YES... i will WHOLE heartedly defend anything police wise... why? I'm not military (any more for like 10 years... ) or police wise (ever) its because i respect just about ANYONE who will get in the way of a bullet for me. that doesn't mean i'd not rather have my OWN bullets ready for the BG.. and or not rather have my own bullets for the BG facing my public officer... it means that they took the job... and try to be there all the time .. but they just can't no more than you and *I* can be there for anyone in trouble. THAT is the reason we carry and own firearms... cause the only person who can truely control a situation is the person there. period.

Police however are a "show of force" in a troubled neighborhood and a "responder" agency .. just like an ambulance or a firetruck... you gonna hold pressure on that wound until the ambulance gets there or run around silly because sheeple don't do anything?

yet we don't say ambulance first responders are idiots.. :P Much of the internet re-enforces my opinion that all of you (people) are idiots... mostly because any self-respecting grounded person can see the forest from the trees, the grass from the dirt... and know that BS is.. BS.

i'm sure any responses to my opines here will be directed to the line 5 rows up... because it was too easy to focus there than the many lines above that.

Takre care.. be safe.. and above all remember that *A* person thinks... people think in packs.

J/Tharg!

[ArfinGreebly]

Not arguing with you.

The suggestion has merit. I was just being a pessimist.

I agree, it's better if Larry lives longer.

Actually, it occurs to me that I've seen a parallel to this, many mooooooooons ago.

To distill the essence of what we found: the more vigorously the code of conduct was enforced, the less "reasonable" the [enforcer] was in his pursuit of compliance, the more people behaved and the less they tried "pushing the envelope" to get away with stuff.

Whenever the application of discipline was loosened, things began to get sloppy and caused all kinds of extra work for the folks entrusted with keeping order.

Whenever discipline was tightened -- and disciplinary actions actually published -- suddenly keeping order was a lot less work.

So, yes, a page (thread) where civility is defined and encouraged.

Also yes, judicious use of the big stick, and in plain view, to remind normally decent folks where the boundaries are.

I can think of some medieval enhancements to that process. Pikes and things. A gibbet. But that's for another day.

[Nematocyst]

We seem to share a large portion of the same page.

Had to look up "gibbet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbet)", though. :scrutiny:

Interesting word.

Interesting concept.
__________

Rice is far better with butter.

[Nematocyst]

I don't want citizens to have access to mortars, C4, or grenades. at least, not easy access...The day that Jim-Bob can drive over to the gun shop on 2nd Ave
and pick up an RPG is the day I (quickly) head for the outback in Alaska.

If not before ...

[Carl N. Brown]

OK, I believe that the paramilitarization of the police
that started in response to the race riots and war
protests of the 1960s is not a good thing.

I believe that in the late 1980s and early 1990s that
the FBI had a sledgehammer in their toolkit--the HRT--
and used it when less drastic means were called for.

That said, if policemen were called to enter a
building with a known armed bank robber or terrorist
foreign or dometstic holed up, they should have
the proper tactical gear to do the job when and
where appropriate.

Police and the government should not be above
criticism, but bashing is not constructive criticism.

[Correia]

Police and the government should not be above
criticism, but bashing is not constructive criticism. Period. Dot. Bingo. You nailed it.

[Mumwaldee]

So, we'll have to be careful not to hurt any feelings when discussing the militarization of the police and their interaction with the public. I think we've all learned a valuable lesson here...thanks for sharing Oleg.

[Byron Quick]

So, we'll have to be careful not to hurt any feelings when discussing the militarization of the police and their interaction with the public. I think we've all learned a valuable lesson here...thanks for sharing Oleg.

Not at all, there is no requirement-formal or informal-on THR against hurting feelings. You can hurt all the feelings you please. Civility is required. If all your criticisms, dire warnings, and 'the sky is falling' diatribes are based on anecdotes then you will probaby be told to back in with cites such as police reports or other evidence. If your and others stances on the militarization of the police amounts to beating a dead horse here you will be invited to use the search feature more in the future.

It's not about not hurting feelings. It's not about being politically correct. It's about being rational. Using critical thinking skills and such. It's about civility.

Any member who either refuses to engage in rational, civil discourse or is unable to adapt to such a standard will be required to go elsewhere. It's not rocket science.

[Mumwaldee]

It's not about not hurting feelings. It's not about being politically correct. It's about being rational. Using critical thinking skills and such. It's about civility.

Maybe you should send that memo out to the police. And people get respect when they give it.

[tydephan]

And people get respect when they give it.
Ummmm. Yep.

I'm assuming...from this statement, that you feel you have given your fair share of respect?

[Mumwaldee]

I've given as good as I got..and I didn't need a team behind me or a throng of anonymous bootlickers to do it. Don't mind me I'll let you get back to your normally scheduled programming. A steady diet of "AR vs AK", "9mm vs .45acp" and "What mousse goes with my keltec?"

I only just realized this was the softer side of Sears. So I'll leave you to your sensitivity training.

[tydephan]

And people get respect when they give it.
I've given as good as I got
:confused:
:scrutiny:

[springmom]

I've given as good as I got..and I didn't need a team behind me or a throng of anonymous bootlickers to do it

Is it just me, or has the testosterone level in this thread risen to toxic proportions? :barf:

I can't say that I get the idea that polite discussion and debate is somehow "the softer side of Sears", nor that people who don't rush to smack Correa up side the head are "anonymous bootlickers".

But then I'd fall into the "bootlicker" category by your lights, albeit not anonymous.

Springmom

[XD Fan]

Pocsmar,

Would you have him go into a meth lab dressed like a patrolman or in street clothes?

[buzz_knox]

Pocsmar,

Would you have him go into a meth lab dressed like a patrolman or in street clothes?


I'm not Pocsmar, but I'm quite happy that on the three occasions police erroneously arrived at my door (one case of mistaken identity and two where they had the wrong address while serving warrants), they were dressed in patrol uniforms and street clothes.

[buzz_knox]

By the way, I believe some of the harsh feelings may be attributable to Oleg's tag line about this officer coming to ice you (i.e. directed at the reader). I understand why the statement is there, but when I first read it, it did come across as this reader (a law abiding citizen) having to concern himself with an erroneous no-knock raid by a heavily armed officer. As stated above, I've had officers at my door because of their mistake three times (thankfully not involving search warrants), and thus take wrongful no-knocks very seriously.

[hso]

I've given as good as I got..and I didn't need a team behind me or a throng of anonymous bootlickers to do it.

Didja ever wonder why there's no one backing you up? That out of the over 10,000 members that no one's jumping on your bandwagon? That even those folks that agree with you that the militarization of the police is a bad thing in this country (even folks like me and Oleg and maybe even Correia) aren't lining up behind you?

It's how you present your argument and deport yourself. :banghead: No one wants to associate with someone they're embarrassed to have on their side. Tone the hysterical rhetoric down to reasoned argument and plenty, possibly the majority, of folks here will agree with the basic premise that there's an over-kill problem with heavy handed over-reaching use of paramilitary-type teams and tactics within this country since the 70's.

A good read for anyone interested in a rational discussion on this topic. http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476

[grampster]

FYI for all of you who seem to believe most police officers are JBTs.

A couple of weeks ago, a 29 year old father of a three year old daughter, who happened to be a patrolman with the Grand Rapids (Mi.) Police Department (my old department), got his face blown off by a citizen lying in wait in his garage. He shot Patl. Robert Kozminski with a shotgun through his garage window. Patrolman Kozminski was there to help the perpetrators wife and two children get out of the house where the shooter had been ranting and waiving a gun around, threatening to kill his family.

Some jack booted thug, huh? Rest in peace Bobby.

This is the 5th GRPD officer murdered in the line of duty in my lifetime. Three of them were good friends of mine. I worked with and played fast pitch with one of them and the other two were young guys I also worked with and mentored.

I'm tempted to tell a few of you keyboard commando's what I really think about your candy asses, but this is the highroad, after all.

[Oleg Volk]

Let this discussion shuffle off for now...