Ithaca Guns

[Man With A Gun]

I am happy to say ITHACA GUNS USA, LLC is alive and well and making guns again.

I just got a Deer Slayer III rifled 12ga with a scope which is deadly out to 200 yards....it can shoot accurately much farther but I cannot.

I just got a new Mod 37 and it is the best shotgun from Ithaca I've ever seen. Workmanship, fit and finish are excellent.

The Chief Engineer is Craig Marshall and I have been asked to give input into NEW models they may make. I DO NOT WORK FOR ITHACA but would love to help design new O/U, SxS, autos etc.

Would anyone here be interested in helping? I do not have all the good ideas on what shotguns should have and I would appreciate the help.

I am a bird hunter. In the South, "birds" mean quail. I have expanded it to include ducks, turkeys and pheasants.

For quail I like a 28ga O/U or SxS, 26 to 28 inch barrels, single trigger, straight English stock, screw in chokes, splinter fore end and sporting clays recoil pad and light weight They are designing it NOW!

This could be an opportunity to give shooters EXACTLY what they want and need.

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
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[foghornl]

For the swappable choke tubes, how about having those tubes that DO NOT need a special tool?

I remember when the swappables first came out, hunting buddy lost the tool. Took him about 10 months to get a replacement.

I have never owned an Ithaca, but have shot a few over the years. Always thought they were darn fine shotguns. Hope the "New" Ithaca Guns company keeps that up...looks like they are well on their way.

[Man With A Gun]

Do mean the extended screw in chokes with stippled "knobs" at the end?

I like them but on a SxS they look strange.

Thanks for the input. I am going to send what responses to ITHACA to the design team.

[foghornl]

Agreed, the extended tubes do look a bit well....odd. Just recalling how much frustration Bud had when he lost the swap tool. Now, if extra tools are easy to find should the original be lost, damaged, etc....no problem

[waterhouse]

I've always been a big fan of the my 20 ga. model 37, so much so that I own 3 of them.

In the early 80s, Ithaca made a 20 gauge called the ultrafeatherlight English, under 5 pounds with a 25 inch barrel and a straight English stock. I'd like to see that one back in production.

[scubie02]

ithaca used to make doubles, so it would be in tradition for them to make a double. If they had the old tooling around someplace, they'd be all set.

[ArmedBear]

A SxS quail gun needs screw-in chokes like a fish needs a bicycle.:)

I'd love it if I could get one with fixed barrels (like my old Ithaca SKB O/U 20 Gauge 26" IC&M). I understand that, even among the discerning few who buy 28's, there's some demand for screw-ins, but if you're going for a niche market, it might be worth testing the waters for fixed barrels. MUCH easier to clean, there's no extra weight or blunderbus-like flaring at the muzzle end, there's nothing that needs checking when you go out, you don't need ANY tools, and if you're going to shoot it with the same chokes all the time anyway...

Offer both, is what I'm saying. I'm wondering if a lot of buyers wouldn't opt for fixed, if given the choice. Also, this would help differentiate Ithaca from the herd. Most guns are only available with screw-ins, these days, and an old fixed choke barrel for say an 1100, especially skeet, can go for a good deal more than new retail for a barrel with screw-ins, on eBay.

That's my 2 cents. The gun sounds neat. Personally, I have nothing against 20 Gauge, either, but that's the sort of gun that could get me to consider 28. It is worth noting, however, that I know some older guys who USED to shoot 28, then decided that it offered little or nothing over a 20, which is easier to reload and more amenable to pheasant hunting, so they quit the 28 again. I know that's not the conventional wisdom.

Also, I see a number of old Ithaca trap singles (4E's and the like) at the trap range, in regular use. People who can find a good one, love them. If Ithaca can make those again for a reasonable price, I'd sure like one. Shooting a Japanese Browning doesn't sit all that well with me for some reason, though I do it, and I like the balance and geometry of the old Ithacas.

[Powder_Burn]

Funny this came up, I was just talking about this last night with a old gun salesman of 30 years. The main thing Ithaca needs to do is get stocking dealers in place and build awareness around the parts and design quality of the Model 37. If they can't get dealer support they should just sell direct. I doubt the average customer or salesman has even seen a new Ithaca let alone become aware of any advantages of one compared to a Mossberg, Remington, or Winchester that all have lower price points. Right now the plain Jane parkerized riot gun is priced at a whopping $650 according to the factory! Ithaca needs to differentiate the Model 37 to justify a higher price since folks can buy any well known competitors for under $400 at any corner store. From a pure marketing perspective, they need to really make customers aware that this is a John Browning design and that Ithaca has a long military and law enforcement heritage. Some product ideas:

Finishes: How about a matte hard chrome option for the riot guns? Tripp handles this for many manufacturers. Alternatively, bring back electroless nickel like the old days! This will cater to the "hard use" crowd that is buying Wilson Combat 870's today for $1,000 ( http://www.wilsoncombat.com/index_sgt.htm ). Or maybe a partnership with Wilson....hmmmm. Also make camo options available

Accessories: Need better Tactical accessories for the riot guns. I need a light, forend, extended magazine conversion, and a Speedfeed stock but none are available.

New Models: Suggest building a youth Model 37 and a special version for turkey hunters and offer a 3.5" chamber. Some ultralight 37's for upland game would be interesting if priced right and if screw in chokes were available. I would also like to see a quality OU on par with a Citori for upland game as well.

[Slater]

Heck, even the Chinese are making Ithaca 37 copies :D

[Man With A Gun]

Fixed chokes is simple and a better idea on a quail gun. I always use IC and MOD.

They have a ptototype tactical gun now. It is a brute and a real shooter.

Also, look at the Deer Slayer III and think "sniper rifle". Then think of the LA shoot out with the two idiots with AK's and body armor.

I think a 12ga sabot slug would have made that a short day. .223 and .308 rifles are aq joke for police use since you can always get close. The DSIII can place a slug inside 1" at 200 yards.

Next, think of a four barrel set on a 20ga frame for .410, 28. 20, 16 and maybe 12...your choice.

Then clay shooters get the nod with a single barrel for trap and, if you want, another set of barrels for sporting clays or skeet or hunting.

This could be either O/U or SxS.....prices MAY be around $2500.00 to $5,000.00 depending on which setup you get.

ITHACA has some great ideas but could use your great ideas. Thanks.

[Fburgtx]

I think the biggest issue is distribution. The company needs to make it a point to get some guns to Davidson's and some of the other big distributors and to gunshops with a large presence on the internet like Bud's Gun Shop. That way, even if you can't find a local stocking dealer, you can still get an FFL transfer EASILY and without having to pay an arm and a leg for the thing.

There is probably a market out there for an AMERICAN MADE SxS or O/U. The only common American made double right now is made by Ruger. Everything else seems to be Jap/Russian/Turk/Italian.

As far as the Model 37 goes, I know the last incarnation of the company (King's Ferry) was making some 16 gauges. Frankly, I think the 16 gauge is a waste of time. For crying out loud, get a 12 or 20 gauge. The 16 gauge is truly DEAD!!! Now a .410 or 28 gauge?? THAT could possibly be a big seller due to the fact that many gun enthusiasts who are willing to pay a little extra for a quality gun might be interested in those gauges.

Frankly, the last incarnation of the company (King's Ferry) was going to have a tough time competing. Just a few years ago, you could still get a nice 870 (NOT Express), for $400-$450. I've seen some recently pushing $600. Why would you pay that much for an 870 when used ones are $250-$350 and common as dirt??? With that in mind, I think the company can get an honest $600-$800 for their pumps now. Virtually no one would have paid that 5 years ago when King's Ferry had the company.

Oh, and how about a STAINLESS pump??? I haven't seen any others and this would definitely set them apart from the crowd. I think a matte stainless gun with a blackened/blued vent rib would be incredible!!!

[Fburgtx]

Oh, and another thing!! I don't know of anyone making an affordable break-action single shot shotgun with a RIFLED slug barrel right now. This could be a good way to break in to the lower-end market, with a bull-barrel break action rifled slug gun!!!!

[Grayrock]

I just picked up a "new to me" Model 37 in 16 gauge. Made in 1953. Waiting for a new recoil pad and the dove and quail loads to hit Academy for dove season. Then I will be set.

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[Man With A Gun]

The LE/Tactical gun is NOT the one shown on the website. Entirely NEW version.

Stainless steel- I like that and will shoot that to HQ design team.

Single shot break action RIFLED slug gun- VERY good idea. AND, how about we make it so extra barrels could be added in different CALIBERS and GUAGES and BLACK POWDER?

Mod 37 in .410, 28, 20, 16, 12 LIKELY. I have seen the 28 prototype.

Sub gauges are the IN thing these days. I use a .410 Win Pump or SxS for quail now.

What is not likely is anything in 12 3 1/2 shell since they are brining back the 10ga auto BIG TIME.

Thanks so much for these ideas. Keep it coming.

[Dave McCracken]

The 37 is my second favorite pump gun.

With the rebirth of interest in doubles, maybe a New Ithaca Double birdgun is doable.

And I shot a 4E SBT last week. Fine trap gun. Made in 1916.Redoing that and/or using the machinery for that slug single will work.

[oletymer]

They are fighting a losing battle with the 37. It is a good gun but they need to expand the line. I suggested a modification to the Model 51 auto and that they need to get SxS and O/Us in production. My answer was maybe, the 51 had some problems. I told them the change to the 51 would cure the problem as mine has over 70,000 round through it. The part in question I had made at a machine shop to replace the cast metal part in the original cured all problems. They seem to not have the money to make changes and produce additional guns.

[Powder_Burn]

Surprised Ithaca is inclined to pursue a 10 gauge over 3.5" 12 gauge. 12 gauge ammo is more widely available and is cheaper. Plus customers would have the flexibility to shoot 2 3/4 or 3" as well.

I suggested optional matte hard chrome or electroless nickel as finish options in an earlier post. Here is an example of Ithaca's old electroless nickel finish from the factory. This gun was a special order back in the mid-80's but some are always floating around.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/Powder_Burn/IthacaM37DSPSFullview.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/Powder_Burn/IthacaM37DSPSRollmark.jpg

Stainless would be good but matte hard chrome looks the same and is arguably better. Plus hard chrome would eliminate the need to manufacture both stainless steel and steel barrels so it's more efficient for Ithaca.

More Info: http://www.trippresearch.com/tech/hardchrome.htm

How about some more pics to keep this thread interesting!

[ArmedBear]

The LE/Tactical gun is NOT the one shown on the website. Entirely NEW version.


There's another suggestion for them. Update the damn website. Daily if necessary. Generate buzz if you can. It's cheap.

Nobody's going to get excited about something they don't know about.

Your posts are great. I had no idea that Ithaca had some of these plans.

I've been checking the Ithaca site now every month or two, and there's little or no change, other than now they quit selling t-shirts (which I wanted) and started selling hats (which I have too many of). Or do they sell t-shirts? I wouldn't know, because it's not on the website, which hasn't changed in months.

Sophisticated consumers are ALL looking on the Web. If all they see are 37's, then how do they know what's in store? Why will they come back to the site?

The 37 is a wonderful pump shotgun. I'm not looking for another pump shotgun. If Ithaca plans to offer other products, give me a clue on the website!

At the VERY least, put up pictures and complete specs of current offerings. Please!

Pardon the rant, but I really think that doing this would be very good for Ithaca, and I want Ithaca to have a bright future.

[One of Many]

I have an Ithaca M37 that I bought new in the mid 1970's. It is a great gun, very smooth and handles nice. I would love to be able to purchase a rifled slug barrel with integrated scope base - the last time I checked, that was not possible.

The biggest problem for me is that prices are >150 % of the closest competition, and it is hard to justify that extra cost for a utility gun.

get the price into the same range as a similar featured Remington, and they will sell.

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[Coronach]

They need to follow the old wedding line. Before we get too far into this, I have no idea exactly what Ithaca is doing ATM, as I have not followed their rebirth very closely, so this might be redundant. However, if I, random guy on the internet, were suddenly running Ithaca, I would do this...

Something Old

The MUST keep the model 37 rolling. It is iconic, but they need to differentiate the model into different finish/option levels. They need to have an entry-level model that is priced as low as they can manage, without sacrificing quality. Ditch the engraving, go with whatever finish is easy to do and durable. I think I'm describing their Model 37 Homeland Defense gun, but it needs to be more competitively priced, if at all possible. I'd counsel them not to try to out remington Remington with the M37, but they need to present it as a reasonably priced step up.

They should also keep (or develop) the higher-end models for people who are looking for nicer wood, nicer finish, and engraving options.

In the same vein, they need to resurrect as many old designs as they can afford to do, even if they only do it as limited edition runs.

Something New

They cannot, cannot, can not stake their success on old designs. They need to come out with something that creates a buzz. Something innovative, something that outflanks the competition. However, it must not be done at the expense of their current offerings. For instance, drop the M37 in favor of a Model 2007, and they'll have a revolt on their hands, unless they manage to get it very very right.

What would I like to see? Well, shotguns for LE is not a growth market, so I'd be iffy about trying to dominate that particular niche. However, if they wanted to gin up a model with an adjustable buttstock, mounting options for sights and lights, it might play well.

Another area for innovation could be an entry level gun beneath the M37. I understand that the M37 is somewhat machining-intensive, an so bottoming it out on price might not be an option. If so, they should keep that as their flagship model and create a bargain model to at least give buyers an option to the 870.

Something Borrowed

Although there are about a bazillion makers out there churning out AR-15s and 1911s, I think Ithaca should consider getting into the action. Even if they make little money per unit, they should not have a substantial investment in machinery if they buy quality components made by others and put the Ithaca label on them and assemble them competently. I mean, I can put to gether an AR with OTS parts. If I can do it, Ithaca can, too. This will enable them to get their name and label out in front of a whole new generation of buyers.

They keys are that:

1. The assembly and basic components must be quality. Ithaca will be doing itself no favors by churning out a crappy AR15.

2. Any expansion into this field should not be done at the expense of their basic lineup.

Something Blue

I like bluing. A deep, rich quality blue is something for which I would pay premium for on a high-end shotgun. Modern bluing, for whatever reason, often does not look like good old-fashioned bluing. Ithaca should take the time and money to polish up the guns and apply a good, deep, rich blue on their fancy guns.

And, speaking of fancy...Ithaca should try to sieze the vast open space between the Remington 870 Wingmaster and the above-$1000 guns. This is a place in which Ithaca has competed before, and which is ripe for domination by an interested domestic maker. Turkish guns are selling because there are no better options at that price point. Ithaca should make a quality, well assembled, nicely balanced, competently fitted double that is priced to compete in this market. Offer a basic gun that is no frills, with finish and frilly upgrades going the whole way up to Ohmygosh prices.

Mike

[Coronach]

OK. I just surfed to their site.

I think Ithaca is missing the point with the LE model. If I were looking for a LE shotgun for a large PD purchase, I would...

1. Make sure it has an adjustable stock. I will have to fit officers ranging in size from Bruno Slabobeef to Tina Tinyframe. My officers will also be wearing body armor sometimes (patrol and SWAT) and sometimes not (plainclothes and undercover). The weather also changes, and their clothing will change to match.

2. I see no light, and no rail to accomodate one. If you're offering this gun as a one stop shop, you don't need to upgrade, this is what you need gun, well...you're lackin something I need.

3. Why not mill in an integral rail for a red dot?

Mike

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[Harry Paget Flashman]

I've own five Model 37's. Only have one now. But I'd buy another Model 37 I don't need in 28ga or .410 in the unlikely event they ever made one.

[Man With A Gun]

Great responses. Thanks.

I had one of the first AUTO MAG 10ga....did not get the wheels and two little boys needed to lug it around all day. Duck killing machine! Nothing got away from that cannon. They are reworking it now.

You REALLY do not want a Mod 37 in 3 1/2"....3" is more than enough and that is the new chambering. Kicks like a mule too.

The SxS and O/U are wonders to behold. Solid, good balance, great workmanship, OLD school craftsmanship....LIFE TIME WARRANTY....it breaks (EVER) and they will fix it. Something like CRAFTSMAN TOOLS.

Just goes with the new ITHACA which is proud to be ALL AMERICAN made by AMERICANS for AMERICANS....not one screw, bolt, piece of wood comes from anywhere but American vendors.

The damned NAFTA law nearly killed most vendors including ITHACA but they are back and set on making the BEST American shotguns possible.

They cannot make pistols ( I know, 1911's would be cool ) and they are not going to make any AR stuff right now( If ever) but they are going to come out with great shotguns with a great warranty that cannot be beat.

Yeah, the website needs work. The guy who does it is working on it RIGHT NOW and I hope to see the results of his work soon.

I have some old 37's and compared them to the new guns and can tell you ITHACA is now making the BEST shotguns they have EVER made.

Man I want you all to see these guns for yourselves. Bird hunters are going to love them, duck and goose hunters are going to go wild and cops and operators are crazy not to get one of the new tact guns.

I have sold the last of my deer rifles just today. I do not need them since one sabot slug from my DSIII puts down anything on legs in North America. 1'' hole at 200 yards is simple...it will shoot farther and better I am just not a good rifleman. Some guys can go out to 3-400 yrds with this gun.

Hey, thanks for the great suggestions. I'll get this to them Monday and see if the website can show some of the new stuff ASAP.

Best to all and thanks again.

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[gp911]

Here are my 2 cents...

1. Stick to what Ithaca has been known for, i.e. great shotguns.

2. The pumps are great, more of those please...

3. Distribution is an obvious one; they really need to get their name back out there as the builder of fine shotguns that normal folks can aspire to.

4. If they do single shots make a new Single Barrel Trap with good wood and decent engraving. Offer a Presentation Grade with nicer wood and finish and barrel sets in other bores. I'd skip the cheaper single shots for now as the market already has NEF and Rossi. No need to dilute the brand as of yet...

5. A really good SxS on the inexpensive side a la Stevens 311, as mentioned before. Simple wood stock that looks okay, beavertail foreend, just a quality working folks' SxS. Call it the "Flues" model... ;) Sell it for around $350-$400 retail.

6. The upcoming fancy SxS and O/U are good ideas.

7. The 10 bore is a cool idea.

8. There is no 8... :D

9. Further developments of the existing lines, including those mentioned above. So eventually add another pump model, special presentation sets, commemorative models, etc... As it is, those above plus what is already available should last awhile.

Again, my 2 cents...


gp911

[Jack2427]

A shotgun that groups slugs at 200 yards in one inch? That is 1/2 MOA, doubtful. I have a substantial LE/tactical SG collection, and I have a few specialized slug guns, the best of which is the Browning A-bolt, which is a true MOA gun, but not 1/2 MOA. I am open to being corrected, but youve got to show me.

[ArmedBear]

Single shot with lever opening. No need for a 12, due to Rule of 96.
20, 28 and .410.


I've got one of the old 66's in 20 with a 28" barrel. I like it. I can hit stuff with it, too. I'm amazed at how well that simple, even crude, inexpensive gun shoots. Locks up tight, too.

[Man With A Gun]

I also write articles for sporting/hunting/fishing mags and, as of late, submitted some gun tests to Peterson....they came back....I told the truth about some of the crap being sold....seems one must find that grain of ability and extoll the virtues rather than telling that it was sh** and not worth the price of admission.

Hence, my suggestion to ITHACA to have TRY GUNS which can be shipped to field testers for evaluation.

For example, the gent who doubts the DSIII can shoot with a rifle. Send him one and let the man try it for himself. There is no better way to sell something than to hear the truth from a guy who has no dog in the fight.

I am not a rifleman but can dot each " i "in Mississippi with a handgun. I use them, repair them and study them. I am NOT the guy to test a DSIII for long range accuracy. I can hit with it out to 100 yards and it is a killer of anything in North America. Give this to a real rifleman and wring it out.

I love bird hunting and can do some damage but I want other bird hunters to join in.

Trap and skeet and sporting clays guys have a treat coming. New guns are being made to enter these areas of shooting. Give them few guns and let them run the course.

I plan to visit my old club in Savannah, GA leave a shotgun or two there as club guns and let anyone who wants to shoot it do so. Those guys will wring it out fast.

ITHACA has just come back from the grave and is starting afresh with good ideas and great products. It won't come in a day but I'll bet by the time the SHOT shows comes around they'll have something to show.

Thanks to all for the great ideas.

[Grayrock]

Gotta agree w/ Jack2427 on this- 400 yard shots from a slug gun? :what: It's like I'm from Missouri: "SHOW ME":scrutiny:

[Man With A Gun]

What if send you my DSIII and you try it for yourself?

I am not a rifleman but even I can put them into 1" at 100. Sabots are the best.

As with any gun, some slugs do well while others are great to awful.

Why don't you step up and do the test? We all might learn something.

My range is limited to 100 but if you can get a long range, say 500, I would be interested in seeing just how far this thing will shoot and hit.

When Ithaca was in NY they did extensive testing on the DS guns and got amazing performance recorded. The man who can tell you about this is Mr. Les Hovencamp now of Diamond Gunsmsithing in Ithaca, NY.

[another okie]

I have a mid-80s model 37 that I use with the original barrel for duck and goose hunting, and a factory short barrel for home defense.

I would like to see Ithaca make a foregrip that has a light rail, so that I could swap the foregrip out after hunting and return the gun to the closet for home defense. I like the idea of sticking to one shotgun for both purposes, because when I switch shotguns I have a tendency to short stroke the Ithaca, as I did once when hunting. I think the ducks were laughing as they flew away.

[Man With A Gun]

POOF...your wish is granted.

You are going to love the new tact gun.

Would a light AND a laser be OK?

How about optional DOOR BREACHING MUZZEL and a PLAIN MUZZEL?

Personally, I can do all the damage to a door with that breaching device added.