[Slater]

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006smallarms/beck.pdf

According to the above briefing, the USAF has bought a bunch of the Remmy 870 Modular Combat Shotgun systems. Heck, and I though the Benelli M1014 was the "Joint Services Shotgun".

[MIL-DOT]

i'm just happy they're not buying norincos !!!

[Alphazulu6]

"Sir, the Air Force doesnt believe in guns" Yep thats a quote from when I was on LSA Anaconda, Iraq and asked why in the hell they were all walking around the post in PT's and none of them had a firearm.... which was the norm for all Air Force (I mean 1000s) HAHA I had to throw that in.

Good for the AF for arming their men. Maybe if they dont lock em all up in an armory while in combat they might actually be beneficial for em :D

[748]

Last time I checked the air force just used "various" shot guns.
And no the air force does not belives in guns. It is an example of if gun control took hold. No one has guns but the police, you call the police if you have a problem. The police are likely to be no more then 1/4 to 1 mile form you on base at any time. They have lots of rules for every thing for no reason.
Kind of like a police state, now that I think of it.

[Gewehr98]

Since in my SAC days, the missile silo and missile transporter security teams had plenty of 870Mk1 scatterguns in their inventory. That was prior to 1992, for those interested...

[Grunt]

Nothing new. We've had older M870s in inventory for a long time now although the new 870 Modular Combat Shotgun just came into our unit here a couple weeks ago. When I wentto CATM school in Lackland, looking at the serial numbers we had one older 870 in inventory that was made I think in 1955 or '57 (somewhere along those lines anyways) so the 870 in USAF service is nothing new.

[busy_squirrel]

SAC/ACC was using Rem 870s from '99-'02 when I was in.

My job was..um..closely related to missile silo amd transporter guys..ahem.

Matter of fact, that was my issued 9-11-01 defense gun, lol. "Here's 39 shells. Shoot anything that comes through that door and over the couch.":D

[Geno]

I like the rail on the receiver. The rail was developed special for the "Tactical Model" Remingto 870s and 11/87s. I wish mine had come with it. Alas, I have to go back and buy it, or order it.

[Jack2427]

The MARINES have adopted the Benelli M1014. None of the other services have done so. Most are using Mossbergs 590-590A1 or the 870, although others are around. During my last contract in sandland I saw a senior Army NCO with an honest to god Winchester 1897, got to look at it. It came from a National Guard unit which also fielded some old Model 12s, and Savage/Stevens VN era pump guns. Most of them seemed in good repair and worked well. Also saw some Remington 1100s that were obviously recent purchases as they had Remingtons latest LE/military mods. Some Marines had the Benelli, but more were carrying the 590 that was Marine issue prior to the Benelli. Some Marines told me that many embassy security teams had the 870 in various configurations, but they were state department purchases. Just about everyone who carried a 12 bore liked it.

[ugaarguy]

"Sir, the Air Force doesnt believe in guns" Yep thats a quote from when I was on LSA Anaconda, Iraq and asked why in the hell they were all walking around the post in PT's and none of them had a firearm.... which was the norm for all Air Force
I went TDY to Balad AB (the Air Force's little corner of Anaconda) twice and only carried a weapon for the week I did LN/TCN escort detail. Of course, if hostiles actually made it thru all the gun toting Soldiers, Marines, and AF Security Forces on Anaconda and it came down to non-SF, non-AFSOC Airmen holding the fort I think it'd be too far gone anyway. Sad, but true.

Of course I can't leave out the 732nd AEG http://www.balad.afnews.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123059843.

[Hugo]

ugaarguy

A more reasonable way to think about it would be.....

Only two or three wounded bad guys would still be alive to be limping/crawling to you after getting through the Army and Marines. Would only take a few shotguns/rifles/pistols to finish them off. Heck, use a shovel or knife if need be!

I'm not in the military but if my base was attacked and its down to 5 or 10 good guys and one or two dying/wounded attackers, finish them off or capture them.

What would John Wayne or Patton do? :)

[TimboKhan]

Only two or three wounded bad guys would still be alive to be limping/crawling to you after getting through the Army and Marines.

An even more reasonable way to think of it is "no one will get through to you or really even get all that close, so sleep soundly. The United States Marine Corps is on the job":neener:

[Grunt]

Let me first say that today being a CATM instructor, I tend to believe the old saying, "If you can't do it in the air, you shouldn't even be there" especially when it comes to the average USAF Cat. C shooter!:cuss: However, being a prior Marine one question I'm asked a lot is what are some of the differences between the USMC and the Care Force. Outside the obvious, our history is taught in the Marines while in the USAF, not so much. So here's a little history lesson I tell all my classes as to why they ought to start to give a damn about our classes:
In 1950, the United States found itself in a shooting war with North Korea. So much for the idea that the next post-WWII war would be a push-button war,eh? :o In November of that month, the Chinese entered the war on the side of the North and began to push their way on South towards the 38th Parallel driving the US and UN forces back. There is was little air base at Kimpo near Seoul that was originally protected by the army units in the area. Hmm, sounds familiar and similar to what we hear from the airmen today, doesn't it? With the Chinese offensive, those army troops were recalled to the front to stop the red advance. This left Kimpo undefended in the face of the oncoming Chinese advance. Now there were USAF Air Police stationed at Kimpo that were familiar with firearms and with the army troops being pulled out, the defense of Kimpo fell to them. Again, sounding familiar here to what we hear today about how "well, we have Security Forces with guns that can defend the base so why do I, Joe Airman, have to learn how to shoot?" What happened in January of 1951 was that the Air Police fought a delaying action but against a superior number, they were quickly destroyed and nowthe North Koreans and Chinese troops came for the base populace...your run of the mill Cat. C shooters. About a month later when the air base at Kimpo was recaptured, it was discovered that those the communists captured were hung right there in the hangers simply because the airmen weren't given any training on small arms to defend themselves. When they couldn't load their weapons, shoot them or get them back up and running again when they malfunctioned, they were easy prey for the communist wolves to have their way with them. After the disaster at Kimpo, Genreal Curtis LeMay began the Small Arms Marksmanship and Training Unit or SAMTU as it was also known that eventually evolved into CATM the Air Force has today.
Now you'd think that with that bit of history, folks wouldn't want to repeat those same mistakes that were made in 1951. However, every time I teach a class to these people I see a good portion of their eyes that just tell me they don't give two ****s about this class. When I go out there to work the line, I see airmen that don't apply themselves, when the weapon malfunctions it's easier to raise their hands for us to come over there to fix them and in general just don't care because they don't know or care about their history that brought them onto our firing range in the first place. It's a corporate military mindset that is going to take another Kimpo '51 to reverse.
If you're an airmen reading this or know one that may be going to the range in the near future, I have some words of advise for you. You go there, don't give a damn, and you might qualify anyways (19 out of 50 is a pretty damn generous qualifying score) but not really know a thing about your weapon. Guess what, I'm not going to be down range with you when the poop is in the props and if I am, I'm not risking my butt for you because you didn't want to be there in our classes back in the states and now your weapon is down and you are waving your hand for me to come fix it. You've had the class so it's on your now to save yourself. So the next time Joe Airman goes out to the range, they might want to think twice before nodding off in our class or putting their peter-beaters ino the air on the firing line. It's your life, not mine.

[Slater]

When I joined the USAF in 1978 (retired in 1998) it was required for the shooter to raise his hand when experiencing a malfunction on the M16 course. Never questioned it, just figured that it had been policy forever. Had to shoot the M16 again in 1991 since I had orders to Korea. On that particular qualification (at Nellis AFB), we were instructed how to clear jams and to attempt to do this if a malfunction occurred.

During my time in the USAF, it seemed that the powers that be had an almost paranoid fear of small arms. I suppose this was because of the history of occasional Negligent Discharges that we were told about. I got the feeling that if the USAF could have figured out a way to do away with ALL small arms, they'd have done it.

BTW, the Air Force had some real museum pieces in service. The M16's we used in Europe in the early 1980's were marked "AR-15" and had the old three-prong flash suppressors.

[sacp81170a]

USAF Security Police, Security Specialist '79-89' (before they re-combined the career fields). I hear exactly what you're sayin', Grunt. I was in SAC and then went to USAFE for GLCM with a stop on the way at Davis-Monthan for GLCM training. In case anyone doesn't know, a GLCM unit was a glorified artillery unit with nuke-tipped cruise missiles instead of cannons. The idea was that in case of war, we would disperse from the base to hidden locations in the woods and await instructions to launch. What it boiled down to was that all 72 personnel on the GLCM flight (44 security police and 28 maintenance and missile crewmen) had to be infantry first. The maintenance guys hated it, but they learned to do it. It didn't stop them from doing their jobs, and they found out how much more camraderie there is in a unit that digs holes and sleeps in them together than one that goes to separate dorm rooms every night.

Sad to say, the rumors that I've heard about the Air Force gettin' more serious about combat training seem not to be accurate.

To keep this post on topic, we used 870's on the EST team at Warren AFB and there were 870's in the launch facilities for the use of the maintenance team members in defending the site. Can't say that I would have wanted to try coming down the tunnel into the silo with 00 buck bouncing off those walls around me.

Oh, I forgot to add that in Security Police, we were well aware of the history of Kimpo Air Base. That's why we did our own Air Base Ground Defense training at Camp Bullis and later at Fort Dix. I guess we were a little different from the rest of the Air Force, especially being in SAC. Almost like a different service.

[ugaarguy]

sacp, please take a look at the link to the info on the 732nd AEG. These are "in lieu of airmen"; airmen who are filling like slots, like gun truck convoy escort, which the Army and Marines manning short falls in.

Grunt, I served in an Air Control Squadron, and our Squadron assigned SF taught us about Kimpo and the importance of being able to defend ourselves during the classroom portion of the MST/ECST (Mobility Survival Training, now known as Expeditionary Combat Skills Training). The ECST is now required for all deploying airmen, where as the previous & more in depth MST was required for arming group B airmen in highly deployed units like the Air Control Squadrons. The ACSs still go to the field regularly and practice setting up their own site security & defense. When I was recently in we got a fair amount of weapons handling practice compared to arming group C airmen, but not as much as I'd have liked.

My previous post was in regards to how things were recently. The Air Force is changing, but that change will not be overnight. Fitness requirements were very heavily increased in 2004, and the emphasis on deployed combat skills was beginning to take hold when I recently seperated. Hold out hope, because the Air Force truly is changing, but it will take time.