[Luggernut]

Well I'm very annoyed right now. When I first got the LNL I couldn't get the powder thru expanders to work correctly. So I deprimed/resized on my Rock Chucker for a while.

Well today I decided to give it a go with .45ACP. I adjusted the powder drop properly to get full range and a crimp. So far so good... at least I thought... until I went to place a bullet in the case and nearly pushed the bullet all the way into the case! ***? I have no idea why the powder thru expanders are so big in diameter since they only are supposed "expand" at the very top! I had to remove about 20 bullets as quite a few were not tight enough- I could push the bullet deeper with some force from the thumb. This was a variety of good brass by the way.

Another thing- the Hornady deprimer/sizer die does NOT resize the case like my RCBS dies. When resizing with the Hornady- the case barely fits into my gauge... when I use my RCBS it slides right in!

To make matters worse my primer slide kept getting stuck.... somehow a burr developed on the end of it...

Not a good day.... :banghead:

[captain54]

call hornady and get help. I talked to there tech-support for about 3 mintues with regards to the expander and I have been flying ever since. As far as the primer slide, I did not have any issues with mine. I did use a little one shot on it. You need to make sure you clean up any spilled powder also as that will hang it up.

[Luggernut]

Captain- what did they tell you wrt the expander???

[PsychoKnight]

I'm pretty new to the LnL AP, just got it last week. It was NOT fun to set up, many adjustments did not seem intuitive, and I had to mix and match powder drop parts to work with my 45GAP, and took several trial & error adjustments with the case activated drop system to tune it properly. Eventually I got it belled just right and everything is honky dory now, but it wasn't easy, and I certainly don't want to do this for each caliber I will load for, and will buy additional case-activated base dies for each catridge.

I suspect it is an adjustment problem, rather than an inherent design defect. When you raise the ram, the rotor should rotate to its maximum point. Once you reach that point, does the ram continue to travel upwards a certain amount? I think this amount of travel determines the depth of belling on the case mouth. Based on my setup, I think it should only be a fraction of any inch, maybe 3/16" of upward ertical ram travel after the measure rotor is fully rotated. Please describe how much over-travel is occuring and what the case mouth looks like after powder-thru expander operation.

As for case resizing; if your RCBS die works well, why don't you temporarily substitute the Hornaday resizing die with the RCBS in order to remove a variable from your seating problem? At least this way we can deal with one issue at a time.

[Luggernut]

Psyco- I do use my RCBS sizing die. All of the issues I uncovered were one at a time. Even when I use my RCBS sizing die the nipple of the powder thru expander basically enlarges the case again... the whole length of the nipple. The expander is supposed to only "expand" the case at the mouth. The powder expander doesn't give the case a good bell unless the case mouth gets pushed up to the shoulder of the nipple on the powder thru expander. By this time the nipple part is an interference fit and opens up the case too much all the way down!

I know I'm not doing this wrong.. I just have no idea how everyone else doesn't have a similar problem. I see the same thing with .45ACP and 9mm.

Psyco- when you have your rounds finished- try to push the bullet into the case with some moderate force. Mine will go into the case most of the time. I only use a light taper crimp not a roll crimp.

I think I will call Hornady.

[captain54]

hornady explained in better detail how to properly adjust this. If your cases are being expanded the whole way down instead of just belling the mouth, then the epander die is set improperly. It should just enter the case mouth. You adjust this by moving the entire powder measure up or down by lossening the two split locking rings. They would be much better able to describe this process as I do not use all the proper terminology. I am sure they can get you trough this and once it is set, my guess is you will be ahppy. Is this your first progressive machine? If I hadn't had some experience with a progressive, I would have hated setting this up. One last thing, if you are using mixed brass, and they are not all the same length, it will effect the amount of bell on the case mouth. Just an FYI in case you weren't aware.

[snuffy]

Just a little history on Hornady loaders. Hornady bought out the Pacific tool & die company. Pacific was an also ran in the reloading press and die industry. Pacific dies were "durachrome" dies, which meant chrome plated! I have several of their dies, which I have since replaced. The finish was a dull chrome. They were rough to the touch, produced ammo but it was a struggle.

Anyway, Hornady made some improvements to the dies, now they are quite good. I have one of their 366 shotshell progressives, it says Pacific on it. It works just fine for the 60's era that it was built for.

Hornady TRIED to make a new progressive shotshell loader. It was called the apex. If you run across one, avoid it like the plague! It was a POS! Good idea, poorly produced. It had a bunch of cheap plastic parts that broke if you got a little ham-handed.

I see a lot of people having trouble with the LNL. I wonder if this is another attempt by Hornady to compete with the big guys like Dillon or RCBS!? IMHO the LNL bushing is a solution to a problem that does not exist. Removable tool heads are the answer, everything stays set, and stays together when removed from the machine. How do you store the dies with those bulky bushings attached?

I love Hornady bullets! Maybe they should just stick to producing bullets and ammo?

[1911user]

Dillon uses similar powder funnels (always have) to bell and activate the powder measure. I measured mine for 45acp. The section that goes into the case, before the mouth begins to bell, is 0.448 inches in diameter and roughly 0.28 inches long. With a 0.452 diameter bullet, 0.004 inches smaller seems reasonable and bullet setback has never been an issue.

Measure your powder funnel, I'm curious how they compare.

It is proper that the funnel expand the case up to correct diameter for bullet seating. Otherwise any variation is case thickness from different brands would affect the neck tension on the bullet. Neck tension is the main thing that holds the bullet in the case for taper-crimped rounds. It needs to be consistent for consistent ammunition.

[Luggernut]

1911 user- that makes perfect sense to me. I can see what you're saying about the variances of ID with different cases and the same sizer die. I'll check my expanders once I get home to check!

By the way- when I say I could push the bullet almost completely into the case I wasn't kidding. A few hardly took much force at all. On a few I could pull out the bullet without the inertia hammer! Damn I wish I had them in front of me.. I should have checked this before.

Thanks!

With regard to the press.... I do have hope still and it's all in all a great press... this just rattled me to no end.

[Hunter0924]

To address snuffy's questions. The bushing does not add enough diameter to the die to prohibit storage in the box they came in. Many folks I know prefer the L-N-L to the tool head. There is less expense is caliber change and it is just as quick. Of the reloaders that I have talked to that has both used the Dillon and Hornady they prefer the Hornady by a large margin.
As far as your statement "Maybe they should just stick to producing bullets and ammo?"
That is ridiculous. Hornady has a loyal fan base as well. My question is why does every Hornady thread turn into a "Dillon is better" thread?
http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillonLeeHornadyComparison.pdf
http://www.cs.odu.edu/~rtompkin/hornady/blue.php
I suspect the problems are due to improper adjustment and would easily be correct.

[Canuck-IL]

I see a lot of people having trouble with the LNL. I wonder if this is another attempt by Hornady to compete with the big guys like Dillon or RCBS!? IMHO the LNL bushing is a solution to a problem that does not exist. Removable tool heads are the answer,
That's a seriously dated opinion...the L'n'L is better engineered than 'Blue' - essentially 650 performance at 550 price with the same excellent service, should it ever be needed.
/Bryan

[chingon]

I agree with canuck, I think the LNL is better engineered., I had a Dillon 550b and sold it for a Hornady LNL AP. I wouldn't go back to the 550b for anything. Regarding the Bushing design the dies are extremely stable, no slop. The 550b had enough slop that you could get a different amount of powder drop running only one round compared to all stations full. Statements like the one you quoted are are usually from people that have not used both presses.

[benedict1]

Hornady has a loyal fan base as well. My question is why does every Hornady thread turn into a "Dillon is better" thread?

You ought to own a Load Master as I do. You have not seen bashing until people begin to jump on Lee. I owned Dillon; I am quite content to be out of it and using my LM. I know lots of guys who are perfectly happy with their LnL's.

Once in awhile a machine gets out of every company that is either poorly adjusted or has too many bad parts and then it's trouble. I caught the Dillon one in the month I bought it last year. Good riddance. I got the good Lee Load Master when I bought it. Hang in there and let Hornady get you straightened out; they will do it, they are an excellent company and have helped many shooters reload great ammo for years.;)

[hornadylnl]

You could take 2 dillon presses and paint one of them red and set them up side by side. Tell a dillon user to try both of them and they'd swear the blue one worked better. I've got about 7-8000 rounds through my LNL. I've had issues but Hornady's customer service has been excellent.

[captain54]

Luggernut-skip all this blue/red fighting. When the press is adjusted properly it will work like a champ just as Dillon's and Lee's. They all have there own little quirks that each user gets used to. The important things now is for the people with knowledge of the Hornady to help you get yours set up to do what it is supposed to do and for those that have no knowledge of the Hornady or its set up to not offer the opinions on why you should have bought something else. If you have trouble getting a hold of Hornady because your schedule does not permit you to call them during normal business hours, you can send me a private message and I will provide my contact number and I will try to help you out some evening this week.

[Luggernut]

Thanks for all the help , everyone, Captain. I'll call Hornady and see what they say.

[Master Blaster]

Dillon uses similar powder funnels (always have) to bell and activate the powder measure. I measured mine for 45acp. The section that goes into the case, before the mouth begins to bell, is 0.448 inches in diameter and roughly 0.28 inches long. With a 0.452 diameter bullet, 0.004 inches smaller seems reasonable and bullet setback has never been an issue.


I currently have a dillon 550 with about 90,000+ rounds loaded on it about a third .45 acp. I also have the Lock-n-Load and I have put about 5,000 .45 acp through it both jacketed and cast, mostly cast.

After many adjustments and alot of tinkering I have concluded that the through powder expander on the Hornady just doesnt work with cast bullets,(cant bell enough to avoid shaving the bullets) and it barely works with the jacketed ones. I am now using the Hornady belling Die on the Hornady which works fine, so its five station advantage over my 550B is non existant.

The belling funnels on the Dillon are made correctly and work perfectly in every caliber. Hornady needs to look at them and then copy them.
BTW I like both presses, and the LNL is a good value. I am keeping my Dillon for small primers and using the Hornady for large ones, I do alot of reloading so I like having two presses st up for two different calibers. I like the beefy build of the Hornady, the extra leverage, and the Auto-indexing.
Hornady also needs to design a proper pistol charge rotor for their powder measure. The rifle one is too big (inconsistent drops at small charge weights) and the pistol rotor has a really bad problem with inconsistent drops due to the small hole causing bridging with all but the finest ball powder. A rotor with a hole midway in size would work great, but they don't make one.

[captain54]

Master Blaster-I get enough belling that I don't shave lead. I definelty have noticed that I get more consistant results with the die than I do the powder through, but I get enough bell after speaking with tech support. I am not questioning your adjustments, just stating that I have mine working adequetly. I am not familiar with the Dillon belling funnels-could you expalin the difference in design vs. the Hornady or do I really need to look at them side by side? The dillon that I used already had everything set up on it so I just loaded, didn't really learn a whole lot about the press itself.

Luggernut-make sure you post an update after you speak with them.

[Master Blaster]

am not questioning your adjustments, just stating that I have mine working adequetly.

Pull the bullets on a couple of the loaded rounds, and tell me again that there is no shaving going on, or take off your seating die and look inside of it.
I had mine adjusted till it was touching the shell plate at full stroke, and most of the rounds looked ok, but my accuracy was not as good as the rounds belled and loaded on the 550. Since I switched to the belling die, the amount of shaved material in my seating die has gone from lots to Zero and my accuracy has improved on the cast .45 acp rounds loaded on my LNL.

I am not familiar with the Dillon belling funnels-could you expalin the difference in design vs. the Hornady or do I really need to look at them side by side? Yes they are quite different, the Dillon measures, and setup were made for through powder belling from the ground up.

The Hornady through powder design is an add on to an existing measure that wasnt designed for through powder belling.

Use the belling die, and you will get better results and have fewer headaches when you change calibers. The visibility of the case is so good in the LNL that you don't need a powder check die anyway, if you are loading with your eyes open.

[captain54]

Master Blaster-I will double check my seating die and let you know. As far as the visability goes, I agree that it is quite easy to visually inspect the cases. I do not use the powder cop die or such in my press.

[Luggernut]

Ok- I've talked with some local folks and many seem to use a separate expander die (like I was). I really like the idea of using the powder cop though.

I did call Hornady- they said the Powder Thru Expander for .45ACP should be .449"- which "should" give me enough interference to hold the bullet well. I'll check when I get home. The belling DOES happen at the shoulder of the PTE so it should go all the way into the case. I'll post the dimensions of my PTE when I get home! If it IS .449" I'll just cry.

[captain54]

Master Blaster-got home and checked the seating die. No lead scrappings. Pulled bullets are good also. I am going to load up about 25 rounds with the expander die instead of the powder through expander and then get to the range to check accuracy-hopefully tomorrow night. I have never done an exact comparison between the powder through and expander die. I will let you know my results. Out of curiosity, how many rounds did you load up before you noticed all of the shavings? I have 600 through currently without any noticable build up.

[Luggernut]

OK more data for you crack reloaders to help me out with. Bear with me if it's a lot of data:

Bullets .451-.452" Berrys plated

PTE .450", maybe a tad more (seems like where the PTE first enters the case is .450" but further down it's .499"

Here's where things get really interesting, I think:

After using the RCBS sizer die, the ID of Federal cases is .443-.444"
After using the Hornady sizer die, the ID of Federal cases is .445-.446"
(sample of 4 cases each)

I measured the ID of the RCBS die (.464") and the Hornady die (.470").

Another interesting twist... CCI Blazer Brass is about .001" thinner than Federal brass. I didn't take the time to do a quick comparison with the CCI brass but I can say that the CCI with the Hornday die and PTE (which went on VERY easy) the bullet could be readily pushed into the case with my thumb. With the RCBS die and the PTE (which didn't go on easy) the bullet was hard to get into the case!

So *** does all this mean????? I'm not so sure. This is my plan... for now anyway:

I won't use the Hornady sizer die. I may "clean up" the PTE to make it .499" uniformly, matter of fact I might take it down below that since I don't think it's so important to size the brass the full length of the bearing surface (right term?). I won't think CCI brass is so good anymore.. although maybe that's not fair. Might test more brass...

In the end I really think the major issue was the Hornady die, followed with a slightly oversize PTE. However I'm suspecting that even though the PTE is .450"... the brass should have some "memory" to come back tighter after the PTE is removed from the case... providing it was sized correctly in the first place!

Thoughts?


FWIW my 9mm PTE measures .355" which also seems slightly large since that basically the size of the 9mm to start. Another day for that...

[captain54]

inside diameter of my rcbs die is.466 and the powder through expander is .4495. Not sure if this is any help, but it gives you measurement of mine that seems to be working properly. I do not have a Hornady die to check.

[1911user]

I measured a dillon 9mm powder funnel so you'll have more data to work with. The section that fits into the case, before belling occurs, is 0.352 inches in diameter. The length of the "expander" section of the funnel is roughly 0.125 inches. I've also had no bullet setback issues with reloaded 9mm or 380.

It sounds like hornady is making their funnels slightly oversize or with loose tolerances. If hornady does not admit there is a problem with your funnels (and replace them), I'd measure the diameter of the bullets you plan to use then make the diameter of the funnel 0.003-0.004 inches less. If you do turn/sand it down somehow, polish it extremely smooth otherwise the funnel will want to stick inside the case.

[Luggernut]

Well, after another hour or so of testing things a bit it seems like the major culprit is the Hornady Sizer die... at least IMO. With the RCBS sizer die, the PTE expander seems to work fine and the bullets sit nice and tight. I measured my RCBS expander die and the outside diameter is also right around .450" just before the flange for belling.

Strange thing is the Hornady 9mm and .40S&W PTE are .355" and .400" respectively... the RCBS dies are at least a couple thousands smaller.... One thing at a time though. Gonna give the .45s a chance for now. Maybe tonight.

[adweisbe]

Could you jerry rig a Dillon powder measure and die? You could have the best of both colors.

[BigJakeJ1s]

Could you jerry rig a Dillon powder measure and die? You could have the best of both colors.

Maybe there's something to figuring out how to use the Dillon powder die and expander on the LNL, but the Dillon PM would not be the best choice. I've seen several users put Hornady and RCBS PMs on their Dillon, and someone even put a Dillon PM on a Lee progressive press, but I've never seen anyone put a Dillon PM on a Hornady or RCBS progressive. There's probably a reason for that...

Andy

[chingon]

I had a dillon 550b and now the hornady lnl and I think the Hornady is the better powder drop.

[Master Blaster]

I had a dillon 550b and now the hornady lnl and I think the Hornady is the better powder drop.

The Dillon measure will work just fine on the Hornady press. You have to use the Dillon powder die, and the Hornady LNL Bushing. If you are going to bell and drop in the same operation its the way to go for small volume pistol charges like under 10 grains of powder.

Chingon why do you think the Hornady is better for small volume pistol? Or was your observation limited to rifle load size charges?

Have you dropped 10 consecutive charges with both measures and weighed them??, try that with the dillon and the Hornady measure 1/4 full of powder.

My observation from doing thousands of rounds on both presses is that the Hornady doesn't give adequate or consistent belling with the through powder inserts. If the Hornady measure is kept less than 1/2 full the consistency of the powder charge can fluctuate by .3 grains, especially with trail boss, and unique.

The Dillon slider keeps within .1 grains with both of the above powders even if its nearly empty.

[PsychoKnight]

When I said all was honky dory - I find that only pertains to a certain situation. I was using once or twice fired Starline cases, belling was sufficient, and even w/out using the FCD, bullet retention was very good. I used a wood block and press with my hands with about 20 or 30 lbs of force to further seat the bullet.

My problem is actually in the opposite direction.

Last night I attempted to load a batch with new Starline, and had a miserable experience. The mouth would not bell, or would not stay belled at all, had to guide each bullet manually into the seating die, and still got several shaved bullets (plated) and mashed shells.

What's going on? Switched back to fired brass and everything ok.

Took out the Hornady 45 thru expander and measured the flare diameter just below the shoulder and compared to the expander from my Lee expander die and also a Lyman 55 expander tube.

In the picture left to right, Hornady .450, Lyman .453, Lee .463

The Hornady was .013 smaller than the Lee at the area flaring the mouth and has almost no flare contour at all. I swapped-in the Lee expander and after much delicate adjustment, it works well with both fired and new brass. The Lee expander is slightly too small for the Hornady case activated powder drop die and will fall right past the c-ring retainer and out of the die, so I placed an o-ring around the Lee expander nipple and it centers snuggly in the die now. Being a rubber o-ring, I don't know how long it will last, but would only take 10 seconds to replace a wornout/broken o-ring when needed.

To adjust the case-activated drop to stop rising early enough to impart a sufficient bell on the case, the offside is that the die linkage controlling the rotor doesn't have enough slack to drop back down on its own. I find the spring designed for this purpose has to work through too much linkage slop to return the rotor drum with my restricted sleeve movement, due to the o-ring modification. I removed the spring and attached a rubberband with direct access to the metering insert as pictured and it works much better to rotate the drum back to rest position.

I've read of people adapting the Lyman expander to work with the CAPD system, but I don't see how w/out a whole lot of custom work. The lee expander insert can be purchased as a replacement part for $3 from Lee, part# SE2411, pictured on the far right.

[GunHoreDer]

I sold off a bunch of RL-550Bs and now have 5 pre LNL Hornady Projectors with Dillon Powder Measures on each one, and on my RCBS AmmoMaster. I use 2 to 3 return springs on each for added reliability. You must Use the Older style Dillon Powder Measure or on the newer dual rocker type just bend the safety out so it runs without binding.

I Love my Hybrid Hornadys. I use any brand of Carbide or Titanium sizer die but the last die Must be a Carbide Factory Crimp Die from Lee for Pistol or a Factory Crimp Die from Lee for Rifle. Each press is dedicated for 1 caliber only so the LNL feature is not that important to me and I saved by buying the older models. They are rock solid compared to Any Dillon but the RL-1000 or RL-1050 series.

I also use the same Dillon P.M. on my RL-1050s and RL-1000 machines.
My $18 Thousand Dollar AmmoLoads from Ammoload.com use a rotoray powder system or I would have put Dillon P.M. on them too.

Use the Dillon Powder Measure w/ Expander Funnel and you'll be all smiles.
Good Luck, GunHoreDer