[Skunkabilly]

Being a ballistic moron (i.e. shotplacementshotplacementshotplacement) but not knowing the specifics, what are the differences between light 115gr vs 147gr 9mm JHPs, assuming identical bullet? What about intermediate weights like 124 and 127 gr?

[Rock45]

I am partial to the 90 grain Gold Dot Hollow Point...impressive speeds can be reached with normal pressures...This could open up a can-of-worms...light and fast--vs--heavy and slow.

[Boats]

I have never really understood this issue either. It is fairly well established that in .45ACP heavy and slow works, so why do people feel that the "heavy and slow" loading of 9mm, the 147gr, is such a dog? One would think that with modern bullet expansion technology, that more mass would benefit a smaller diameter bullet by giving it more momentum relative to a light loading.

[dude]

F=MA (always)

I use 9m 146g subs for self defence.

[care-less]

I have always had a bit of a problem with loading the 9 heavy. For that matter I have the same problem with loading it light! thats why I pretty much stick with what the round was designed for: namely something in the 124gr. weight. It is fast enough, and heavy enough.

[Rob96]

I'm middle of the road, I like the Speer 124gr +p Gold Dot. But I have also been known to carry Winchester 115gr JHP and Remington 115gr+p.

[C. H. Luke]

Taylor rec's. 127 gr. in 9mm & specifically Ranger
SXT +P+.

[Mikel]

I usually carry 147gr Winchester SXT.

[jeff4570]

It ALWAYS depends on what you are shooting at ......Ever see and hear a 45/70 400 grain bullet hit dirt ? Lots of 'slow' power at 100 yards !
Big ,Heavy and 800fps is the ultimate stopper but if the target is wearing body armor or a fat winter jacket at 25 yards it may become an issue.
How many people have you guys shot lately ?? Lots of talk on prefered defense ammo but a quick look at the history of the Civil war might shed some light.
As for the 9mm question ; If I needed to make a choice it would be 110 gn for target and 124 JHP for defense .

[Al Thompson]

IIRC, the first 147 JHPs were more for use in suppressed MP-5s than true anti personnel bullets. Expansion was iffy at best and there was an issue of POI/POA problems.

This lead to "reports" of non-expansion making the gun rags and few recommendations for it's use.

I don't know if the Gold Dot bullets have fixed those issues. It wouldn't surprise me if they have.

Anybody have any recent info?

[braindead0]

When you consider that for a long time, nobody argued with the 125gr .357... Probably a good bet is the heaviest bullet you can sling at a reasonable rate.. 1000fps or so should do the job nicely.

[sm]

WESHOOT2---
Wake up, we need a question answered here dude :D

I think the bullets have been improved, Like Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, SXT's. I still use 115 gr. myself. I go for reliable everytime first...

[krept]

f=ma but I think you want to look at KE (.5MV^2) versus "force" because IIRC once the bullet leaves the barrel, acceleration = 0?

I guess the difft weights of the 9mm. Even with solid HPs I think the heavier 9mms will penetrate more than the lighter ones due to their sectional density. If you want to err more on the side of penetration through light cover or concealment with less deflection I think the heavier bullets would be a little better.

If you want to limit penetration to the greatest extent, then I guess the lighter bullets would be the ticket.

If I had a 9mm, I would prob. use the midrange weights (e.g. 124gr) to average out the differences. IMO again due to the SD I think the midrange bullets will still exhibit @ the same penetration as 230gr .45 HP? I know the 147gr 9mms will outpenetrate 230gr .45s of similar construction (ball vs. ball, HP vs. HP).

Have "heard" (you know how those things go) that the P7 can be a little picky with the subsonic loads, so that might be one reason to go a little lighter if you are feeding yours.

147gr 9mm @ 1000fps? That should go thru and thru a car. IIRC the 125gr .357 was good because it fragmented... the heavier bullets would frequently overpenetrate... again... due to big sectional density numbers.

[George Hill]

My favorite load for 9mm has always been the 124gr Nyclads.

When my supply of them dry up, I am going to have to evaluate the other loads.

[mete]

Al Thompson has it right . The 147 originally was designed as a subsonic, accurate bround for the MP5. There were no other criteria. For some bizarrew reason it was taken as the ideal round for the 9mm ??? It was a failure on the street.!! The bullet was then redesigned and is apparently ok now. I'll stick to the 115 for the 9mm, and if that's not enough go to a 40 or 45.

[10-Ring]

My guns & I have liked the heavier rounds...no real reason, just do :D

[CZF]

Even with the new designs. A 900 fps 9mm bullet doesn't impress me much.
NYPD is very happy with the results from the SPEER 124 gr +P Gold Dot.
While the S. African Police Service uses an even lighter bullet with great
performance. Some members even use the excellent Ranger +P+ which
is not restricted to L.E. Only in that country.

While i don't believe everything i read. I did note that reports about the
.357 SIG 125 gr Gold Dot. The stopping power results in actual gunfights
were identical with the 124 grain 9mm +P Gold Dot. This was not M&S
data BTW. I think the 147 gr offerings are best reserved for Practice
and also in Carbines, where they can benefit from the velocity boost.

There are just far better abundant choices for 9mm than the 147:p

[Quintin Likely]

IIRC, the first 147 JHPs were more for use in suppressed MP-5s than true anti personnel bullets.

The 147 originally was designed as a subsonic, accurate bround for the MP5. There were no other criteria.

www.hkpro.com/mp5sd.htm

"Key to the uniqueness of the SD suppressor is that it is coupled with a barrel that has 30 2.5 mm ports in it to drop supersonic bullets to subsonic velocity for even greater noise reduction. It is often confused, but shooting subsonic bullets in an MP5SD is a definite no-no for what is described in ballistic performance as the world's most expensive .380. The average reduction in velocity is 200 feet per second. You can thus see why subsonic is not a good idea, apart from the unreliability that you are introducing the gun as well."

http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/pages/military/mp5frameset.html

"For specialized applications requiring fully realized sound and flash suppression, several MP5SD weapons are available. The removable sound suppressor is integrated into the weapon's design and conforms to the normal length and profile of a conventional, unsuppressed submachinegun. The MP5SD uses an integral aluminum or optional wet technology stainless steel sound suppressor. It does not require the use of subsonic ammunition for effective sound reduction like most conventional sound suppressed submachineguns."

Me personally, I prefer 124 gr bullets for 9mm though.

[Rock45]

I carry 124 grain Gold Dots in my 9mm, but I am very interested in the stuff I have read re: the lighter, faster loadings. Magsafe and CorBon, two of the more highly respected personal protection load makers, highly tout the light and fast loads. IIRC the Magsafe load is a 64 grain projectile at close to 2,000 fps...sounds good to me!

[seeker_two]

Depends on the pistol used. In a longer barrel (i.e. Beretta 92, BHP), heavier bullets can work well. In shorter barrels (i.e. Kahr, Firestars, etc.), I prefer the lighter bullets.

But, most importantly, you should find the load that shoots the most accurately from said firearm. Like you said, shot placement is everything...:cool:

[Dr.Rob]

115 gr Winchester Silvertips, I can afford to practice with them.

I've tried 124gr, and found liitle or no difference in function, though I don't use +p.

[arinvolvo]

Well, my personal favorite 9mm defensive round at the moment is the Speer golddot 124 gr +P traveling at a muzzle velocity of 1220 fps.

That seems like enough weight and enough speed to get the job done.

[themic]

i shoot 115 gr, because i tend to think it will have limited overpenetration (i'm an apatrtment dweller), and because my 9mm has a short barrel. i don't know for sure, and i don't really feel like testing it, because i think pretty much all JHP 9mm rounds will do a reasonable job of expanding, and my practice ammo is all 115 gr. plus the stuff is cheaper.

I currently carry either S&B 115gr JHP or CCI Blazer 115gr JHP.

[OF]

Go to the 'Terminal Ballistics' forum on Tactical Forums...it's enlightening.

I swore off light loads years ago.

- Gabe

[Bren]

You guys should take a look at www.amolab.com

The 147gr sucks in 9mm and no,,, most pistol rounds don't go through cars, I have a tape that tests each pistol round on a 1970's car and none went through a car door reliably. (though 10mm wasn't tested :p )

My favorite 9mm is Ranger 127gr +P+ and Nyclads for standard pressure. Triton 125gr looks good too. Bren

[WonderNine]

I go with 124gr. FMJ NATO or 127gr. +P+. for defense loads.

124gr. is the weight 9mm was designed for and I don't like the stray far from original specs. I tend to believe from personal experience that the lighter grained loads regardless of pressure seem to be just a hair less reliable. Even the 115 grainers. Most people will disagree with this, but I'm just going from my experience.

IMO 124gr. is the perfect balance for penetration, reliability and speed. And the light high pressure loads tend to be alot louder.

[Mikul]

I used to carry 115gr Corbons until I fired into wet telephone books. The round penetrated dramatically and VERY early... too early. It seems to have penetrated within the first inch which would be lousy with someone wearing a jacket, so I switched to 124gr ProLoads.

A friend who has played with a lot of 147gr 9mms says "There are no 147gr hollowpoints" because he's never seen one completely expand at handgun velocities.

Another common theory that makes sense is that you either need a big bullet, or a small bullet that expands and moves fast. Fast is commonly accepted to be in excess of 1,200fps. I know of no 147gr 9mm round that approaches that speed out of a handgun.

[George Hill]

I have.

Fast is relative.

[OF]

Bren: you're short an 'm' in your ammolab link.

www.ammolab.com

- Gabe

[Shawn Dodson]

Defense loads, light vs heavy?

What are your requirements for terminal performance?

I believe a bullet must damage vitals to be reliably effective in stopping an attacker. To accomplish this task I have to place my shot(s) well and ensure the bullet(s) has enough penetration potential to reach and damage vitals from any angle, after passing through an arm and/or encountering an attacker with a heavy build. I prefer a bullet to meet the penetration requirements of the IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specification (12.5-14" peneration in bare gelatin and 13-16" in gelatin covered with four layers of heavy denim cloth).

Notice I don't make any mention of bullet weight? Why? Because it's irrelevant to my performance requirement.

[DonGlock26]

I've seen 147gr Golddot bullets perform very well in several recent shootings in my Dept.. They penetrate auto glass, penetrate deeply, and expand. I don't think you could ask anymore of a self-defense round. FWIW