load needed, 230 gr. .357/38 sp


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greatgoogamooga
July 15, 2007, 09:55 AM
I'm buying some bowling pin bullets from Penn. they have a 230 gr. "thunderhead" which is essentially a very long wadcutter for .357 which is designed for this purpose. On their site they say to use 9.0 grains of Accurate Arms....no mention of which one, though. Here's a link to the site:

http://www.pennbullets.com/38/38-caliber.html

Anybody have experience with this or any similar bullets? Unfortunatley, AA is hard for me to find locally, so if you have data for another powder, that works for me. I'm leaning toward .357 magnum, though I reckon 38 special might work if anyone has data for it.

Thanks

Goog

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joneb
July 15, 2007, 01:40 PM
I would draw the line at 200gr lead or 180gr jacket for .357 mag. all of the data I've seen stops there. If I wanted to shoot a heavier bullet I would use a larger caliber handgun.
I would ASS-U-ME they are recommending AA#9 for the Thunderegg :confused: but it could be AA 5744.
I would want more clarification, Just click on any bullet to get more detailed information. If you are still uncertain about which bullet will best meet your needs just drop me a line president@pennbullets.com or give me a call (412 767-4670 Monday - Friday 10 AM - 5 PM EST) and I will help.

Bob P.

Werewolf
July 15, 2007, 02:05 PM
^^^
Agreed. For .357 180gr would be max for me though I could see maybe putting a 200gr bullet in there.

RE: the Accurate Powder - if we're talking .357 Magnum load than probably #9 though #7 is a possibility. If we're talking a .38Spl load than #2 is the probable powder used.

GP100man
July 15, 2007, 03:21 PM
ggm
looks like they recommend 9.0grs of accurate arms #9 powder.
#9 ,h110 & ww296 very similar ball powders,not interchangable but
similar. probably the only powders suitable for 230gr boolit in 357mag!


GP100man

greatgoogamooga
July 15, 2007, 05:00 PM
GP100, do you have any way of verifying that it's no. 9? I agree that it's likely, with no. 7 being the next most likely, but I have found no data from AA for anything higher than a 180gr bullet.

Goog

Werewolf
July 15, 2007, 07:49 PM
GP100, do you have any way of verifying that it's no. 9? I agree that it's likely, with no. 7 being the next most likely, but I have found no data from AA for anything higher than a 180gr bullet.And you probably won't find much.

I've got three different reloading manuals. Only one - Modern Reloading by Richard Lee lists any data for a .357 Magnum load using a 200gr lead bullet. I don't see anything for Accurate listed but it shows 11.5 gr of H110 as both the max and min load.

For 180gr Lead it shows loads for AA#5 thru #9. The starting load for #9 is 11.7 gr and the max is listed at 13 gr with min OAL of 1.675.

ArchAngelCD
July 15, 2007, 10:09 PM
I see many are saying they wouldn't shoot more than a 180 to 200 gr bullet from a .357 Magnum. I'm guessing they didn't bother to read about the 230 gr bullet and it's reason for being made on the Penn bullet site.

I would suggest you contact Penn Bullets for load data. They offer to supply load data on the first page of their site. Call them M-F, 10AM to 5PM EST.
Phone: 412-767-4870

GP100man
July 15, 2007, 11:00 PM
ggm
its on the peen s bullet site accurate arms has some pistol powdersdesignated as #2,#5,#7 then #9 & there saying to use 9.0grains of #9.
200 grs. is the heaviest ive shot & i used rcbs #12 manual ,reccommended 11.7 to start& maxed at 12.7.
so 30grs is 15% heavier& load backed off 3 whole grains, in my exp pressures are probably under 35.000 even with the deep seating of the boolit
what kind of hand gun you gonna shoot these out of ????
a call to penns & asking them how they developed 9 grs. of #9 under a 230 gr boolit just mite satisfy the knowledge you seek.
iv shot pinswhile plinking with a lee 158gr rnfp homecast over 15grs. of h110& it slap em with some authority .

GP100man

joneb
July 16, 2007, 12:17 AM
Hopefully Penn's data includes chamber pressures depending on the firearm, getting this thing to fly could prove to be a challenge. This slug may require max pressure to achieve the velocity and rotation needed for stabilization.

N.M. Edmands
July 16, 2007, 01:59 AM
From post #3 "If we're talking a .38Spl load than #2 is the probable powder used."

PLEASE ! Do not try 9 gr of #2 in a 38spl ! :eek:

nitesite
July 16, 2007, 10:48 AM
PLEASE ! Do not try 9 gr of #2 in a 38spl !

Amen. Disaster.

Bacchus
July 16, 2007, 10:51 AM
Arch Angel nailed it on the head. Contact them directly and get the details from Penn. Don't take chances with reloading.

greatgoogamooga
July 16, 2007, 11:43 AM
I sent Robert an e-mail about this before I posted this thread. Hopefully he'll get back to me.

GP100man, where did you find the data on his site? To answer your question, I'll be using either a 4" 686, a 6" Dan Wesson or an 8" Taurus 605.

Goog

greatgoogamooga
July 16, 2007, 11:59 AM
Just spoke to Robert on the phone (now that his shop is open). He says 7.0 gr of #7 or 9.0gr of #9 in .357 magnum. He didn't have a specific source, just "the guy who helped work up the loads." Next step, I'm gonna call/email AA and Hodgdon and see what they say.

Goog

Updated: Hodgdon won't touch that bullet with a 10 ft. pole. I spoke to a rep on the phone and he said if they haven't tested it, they won't offer any data.

greatgoogamooga
July 16, 2007, 08:23 PM
Alliant said no way, have a nice day. I'm beginning to worry about this bullet.

Goog

suemarkp
July 16, 2007, 08:58 PM
Here's one online site with something similar (210 and 250gr bullets). I'd be careful here though...

http://www.handloads.org/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=357%20Magnum&Weight=250&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

http://www.handloads.org/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=357%20Magnum&Weight=210&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

Werewolf
July 16, 2007, 09:38 PM
From Post #3From post #3 "If we're talking a .38Spl load than #2 is the probable powder used."

PLEASE ! Do not try 9 gr of #2 in a 38spl !
__________________HOW in the world can anyone interpret what was written in post #3 as recommending 9 grs of Accurate #2 in a .38 Spl LOAD? Answer. YOU CAN'T!

M'thinks someone is over reacting a bit because neither msg #3 or any other later message by myself or others even comes close to suggesting that the OP put 9 grs of #2 in a .38 Spl load.

All responses like in the quote above accomplish is to scare people. They accomplish nothing. Please make sure you understand what has been written before responding.

GP100man
July 16, 2007, 10:42 PM
ggm
when you go to penn boolits slide down to the 230 sledge hammer then click on it a screen will pop up with info concerning 38 &357 loads.
the rcbs #12 has a 200gr jacketed load that starts at 11.7grs& ive shot this in a 6"GP100 with no extraction problems or flat primers or case head growth under oregon trails 200grainer .
but just for the record flat primers is not an indicator of pressure ,its an indicator of soft primers .
(lets see what this gets started )!!!!!!

GP100man

GP100man

tasco 74
July 16, 2007, 11:33 PM
i thought it was a mistake till i read farther......... no thanks... i don't want to stretch my revolver!!

N.M. Edmands
July 16, 2007, 11:39 PM
Sorry Werewolf:

__________________[/QUOTE]HOW in the world did you come up with me telling someone to put 9grs of Accurate #2 in a .38 Spl load?

Please - enlighten me.[/QUOTE]

Didn't. He was talking about 9grs of #9,and I just wanted to insure he didn't misread. I see now he had specified 357. The reference to 38 came later. My Bad!
Apologies for any misunderstandings on my part or yours.:o

Werewolf
July 16, 2007, 11:50 PM
Apologies for any misunderstandings on my part or yours.No problem. Written communications - especially on the internet - are prone to creating unintentional misunderstandings. :)

greatgoogamooga
July 26, 2007, 09:16 PM
Hodgdon and Alliant wouldn't touch this bullet, but Accurate Arms was willing to help me. This is the reply I got from them. As long as it's safe, I think they've just made a fan out of me.

Goog
-------------------


We suggest the following.

Caliber: .357 Magnum with 230grain Penn bullet.

Barrel length: 6”

Application: PIN Shooting

Projectile data: 230grain Cylindrical design Length: 0.909”



Bullet seated on 1st cannelure: 0.525” = COL ca 1.664”

Powder: Accurate –no 9. (1st Choice)

Bullet weight: 230 grains. COL:

Start load: 8.5 grains (925 – 975 Ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 9.5 grains (1025 – 1075 Ft/p/sec).

Powder: Accurate –no 7.

Bullet weight: 230 grains.

Start load: 7.5 grains (925 – 975 Ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 8.5 grains (1025 – 1075 Ft/p/sec).



Bullet seated on 2nd cannelure: 0.625” = COL ca 1.564”

Powder: Accurate –no 9. (1st Choice)

Bullet weight: 230 grains.

Start load: 7.4 grains (900 – 950 Ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 8.2 grains (950 – 1000 Ft/p/sec).

Powder: Accurate –no 7.

Bullet weight: 230 grains.

Start load: 6.8 grains (900 – 950 Ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 7.5 grains (950 – 1000 Ft/p/sec).



NOTES:

It’ important to note that:

1. SAFETY is our prime concern therefore:

1.1. The loading data is conservative, especially regarding the minimum or start load to ensure a safe baseline to work from.

1.2. The safety margin built into the start load might be more than the customary 10%.

2. We strongly recommend.

2.1. To always start at the recommended minimum “START” load.

2.2. If at all possible, measure the velocity.

2.3. Contact us again with the velocity data, so that we can verify, and correlate with our calculated/estimated data. The data should also be compared, with the typical velocity levels accepted in the industry, for that particular caliber-bullet weight combination.





Regards

Johan Loubser

Ballistician

Western/Accurate Powders

Tel: 1-800-497-1007 or (406) 234 04 22

Part of Western Powders Inc -- Miles City – Montana.

joneb
July 27, 2007, 12:45 AM
Did they recommend a primer ?

ArchAngelCD
July 27, 2007, 03:49 AM
greatgoogamooga,
I understand why the powder companies don't want to recommend a load for that bullet. Penn made these bullets for Bowling Pin Shoots ONLY. They aren't meant for anything else. I suggest you use the data from AA and work up something that will fire reliable.

Good luck in the Pin Shoot!!

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