Shotgun for Home Defense. Pump vs. Auto - your opinion.

[Megawatt]

I own a few guns for self defense consisting of Sig P226, S&W Mod. 66-4", S&W Mod. 10-6", SKS Rifle and finally a SMITH AND WESSON EASTFIELD MOD. 916-A shotgun. I feel comfortable with everything except the shotgun since reading so many negative comments here about the 916-A. I would like to replace the Mod. 916A with something very reliable and after doing research here it is obvious that the proven and most popular shotgun is the Remington 870, among others.

My concern is Pump Vs. Auto Loader. If I was to be unfortunate enough to have 2 or 3 armed bad guys enter my home, the split second of time it takes to "pump" another shell into the chamber could give a bad guy time to hit me whereas an auto loader would be more rapid fire and I might just be able to take out all 3 with rapid fire before they even have time to think. With a pump, a person has to THINK about "pumping" the next round whereas with an autoloader all you have to do is pull the trigger. To me, a pump shotgun is like having a single action pistol that you have to cock everytime to shoot. I am not ruling out or "bad mouthing" pumps but just trying to make the right decision.

So, what is your opinion on pump vs. auto loader for defense and why? If I get a pump it will probably be the 870. Are there any reliability issues with auto loaders like feeding or extraction problems, etc.? Is maintenance and upkeep more involved on auto loaders? Are there any problems with auto loaders where I should avoid them and get a pump? I know the 870 is a fantastic pump. If I get an auto loader, I would want one with as good or better reputation as the Remington 870. What, in your opinion, would be the best auto loader that is as great as the 870 pump, if any? I want a short barrel, 18", and that can shoot any type of high powered ammo., 2 3/4" to 3" shells , easy to maintain, well made with a PROVEN track record, and VERY DEPENDABLE. I hope I can get some great recommendations here from the experts along with ball park prices of the shotguns recommended. If you have any other information that I need to consider before purchasing, please tell me. Thanks for your help.

[Steel Talon]

870 pump! here.. #4buck for predator control

[Banta]

My guess is if you had 2 or 3 armed guys bursting into your house and you started shooting, you would end up getting shot regardless of what type of gun. Probably only in the movies can someone pick off a few armed guys without getting shot himself.

I would go with a pump action for the simple, reliable design with a 14" barrel. That's my next gun.

[Regolith]

It depends. Auto is good for exactly what you stated: quick follow up shots. Most auto shotguns also kick less than most pump shotguns, because the system uses some of the shot's energy to load the next round. This allows for the follow up shot to be more easily placed on target. However, they're not as reliable as pumps, and jam more often. If it is a gas autoloader then maintanence will be a bit more involved as you will have to clean the gas system somewhat regularly.

Pump shotguns are cheap and reliable. For the most part, pumps shouldn't fail to feed. Ever. They're the revolver of shotguns.

My suggestion, is if you have the money, go with a good auto shotgun. Something like a Benneli M series or Remington 1100. Otherwise, go with the 870.

[sm]

.

[spartan55]

Winchester 1300 pump 00 Buck and a few slugs

[alucard0822]

I would suggest the 870pump w 18" barrel (Banta, being one of our neighbors up north can get a 14" shorty without our NFA hassle)
and #4 or 00 buck, it will go boom every time without fail, and they make nearly everything under the sun for them.

If you really want a good auto, then the 1100 would be my suggestion, but what is wrong with using the SKS? It is reliable with 10 light recoiling rounds at the ready, and you can probably light off all 10 accurately faster than 5 loads of buck in the 1100, plus you appear to already be comfortable with it (all 4 other HD guns), and you even have a bayonet for when you are out of ammo and the zombies keep coming:evil:

[Chris Rhines]

My concern is Pump Vs. Auto Loader. If I was to be unfortunate enough to have 2 or 3 armed bad guys enter my home, the split second of time it takes to "pump" another shell into the chamber could give a bad guy time to hit me whereas an auto loader would be more rapid fire and I might just be able to take out all 3 with rapid fire before they even have time to think. Okay, if you get nothing else from this post, get this and for Kismet's sake, take it to heart: Your shot-to-shot split time is going to depend much less on the gun, and much more on how well you are trained with whatever you choose. A skilled shooter with a pump-action shotgun will outrun a tyro with an autoloader every time.

With a pump, a person has to THINK about "pumping" the next round whereas with an autoloader all you have to do is pull the trigger. This is where the training comes in. You should have so many rounds through your shotgun that you don't have to think about working the slide; you just work the slide and engage the next target, subconsciously.

Are there any reliability issues with auto loaders like feeding or extraction problems, etc.? Is maintenance and upkeep more involved on auto loaders? There can be, and sometimes. Gas-operated autoloaders (Remington 1100 and 11-87, for instance) can require maintenence and part replacement at fairly regular intervals. Inertia-driven autoloaders, like the Benelli M2, are very reliable even with minimal cleaning and upkeep. Again, with regular practice and training, any little hitches or quirks in your chosen gun's operating will soon make themselves known.

As an aside, pump shotguns are not the be-all-end-all for reliability either. I've seen numerous pump guns from different makers (including the vaunted Remington 870) fail under hard use - shell latches coming unstaked, bent action bars, cracked vent ribs, beads falling out, broken extractors. All guns can fail, and if you have a gun that hasn't failed, you haven't been shooting it enough. :D


Specific advice: Find a good gunstore that has a large selection of short-barreled shotguns, even if you have to drive some distance. Don't bother asking the opinions of the gunstore staff - most gun shop employees know very little about guns and shooting. Instead, look over the shotguns yourself. Are they simple to load and unload quickly? Do they mount quickly and smoothly, or do you have to contort your head and upper body to get into a shooting position? Do they have good (or at least decent) triggers?

Buy the shotgun that fits you the best, and buy about 1000 rounds (4 cases, about $200 worth where I live) of high-brass birdshot to go with it. Go out and shoot it. Try to find a place to shoot reactive targets, things that fall over or break or go "DING!" when you hit it. Shoot multiple targets, multiple shots on one target, different shooting positions, etc. Shooting skeet, trap, and other clay games is a good way to get some practice in.

If you find the shotgun malfunctions a lot, take it back to the store and get it repaired or replaced. If you find the shotgun is uncomfortable to shoot, either return it or ask about a gunsmith who can fit the stock for you.

After you run through that thousand rounds, you'll know your shotgun inside and out, which is what you want for a self-defense gun.

- Chris

Oh, one more thing: My guess is if you had 2 or 3 armed guys bursting into your house and you started shooting, you would end up getting shot regardless of what type of gun. That is by no means a foregone conclusion. But again, everyone repeat it with me, "You have to be well trained with your weapon of choice!

[SecondAmend]

This is what I use for HD. It's an 18", 6+1 capacity. Bought it new for $365 w/ pistol grip and folding stock.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r103/latinocowboy/02/DSCN1390-1.jpg

[Chilean]

Try a good pump, maybe an 870 Police

[MassMark]

Everything has the potential for failure - everything - including pump shotguns, (ask me how I know). The choice of which is "better" will be up to you. If you choose a cheap "no name" autoloader or a cheap "no name" pump, you increase your risk for failure.

My personal choice is a Benelli Super-90. It is by far the most reliable multi-round shotgun I have owned. It has literally never jammed in a couple thousand rounds or various fodder, (from mild to wild).

Chris Rhines post should be read and re-read until it burns into your memory chip. No matter what you choose, you must train and train often. As far as being "quick on the pump" it can be done with training, though I'd love to see someone out shoot a Benelli with a pump and do so with accuracy. I'm no competition shooter, but the Super-90 is a tough follow-up shot to beat with a pump gun....

If you choose a pump gun however, you will be amazed at just how fast those follow-up shots will come if you train, train, train....It will become muscle memory to the nth degree....

[GunTech]

Auto. Under pressure you don;t have to worry about short-cycling the action, and have a faster follow up shot. It's also easier to use one handed.

My 10.5 inch Benelli.

http://guntech.com/shotgun/m1s90.jpg

[Dave McCracken]

My choice, an 870. However....

Either will do if the operator has run enough shells through it that he/she can operate it effectively in the dark, 10 seconds out of a sound sleep. for he/she may need to very much.

Hardware is simple. Get the software up to speed.....

[Catalina]

Either one. It does not really matter. Tactics & execution matter 1,000% more than pump versus auto shotgun.

[10-Ring]

I inherited a Winchester Defender several years ago. Over the years, I've put several 100 rounds through it -- IMO, there is just something about the simplicity of a pump shotgun for HD.

[PJR]

The comments about the right tactics is right on. If you have a plan and have considered some scenarios then you are further ahead regardless which configuration you choose.

Pump guns rarely fail on their own. Problems are operator induced. Semi-autos are more dependent upon the ammo and maintenance.

If you like to shoot and practice with a pump gun to the point where its operation is natural for you UNDER STRESS then nothing is better. If you don't shoot a lot then a reliable semi-auto that is properly maintained and loaded with ammo of sufficient power is probably a better choice.

I've used both at various times. My choice today is an 870.

[Speer]

It ain't what you got, it's what you can do with it. That said, I'm better with the auto loaders. Short stroking is the bane of the pump.

[silverlance]

benelli m1 super 90. benelli factory PG stock, standard 5+1 magazine. unbelievably lightweight and unbelievably reliable.

for a pump action, i use a mossberg 590 sp with the knoxx sidewinder kit.

---

if i lived in a state other than california, i would still put the benelli at the top of my list, but the saiga 12 would be second.

i personally do not like pumps very much. short stroking, release button, etc... no good for me.

[Durby]

I shoot 3-1/2 inch pumps for hunting, first a garbage Charles Daly that I fixed the shell catches in the mag tube with JB Weld (still works) and the forend broke where the action bar is held in, and now I only shoot my 870 super mag (dont get the super mag for HD, it just complicates things). I short stroke it once in a blue moon, but I am so familiar with my gun that it doesn't slow me down too much, and I don't have to think about it. I've seen so many autos that are picky about what shells you put through them, and duck hunting seems to test guns pretty good. I'm a big fan of owning a lot of guns, but being extremely well practiced and familiar with one of them can't be beat. My 870 sits out in the rain all duck season, gets dropped, dirty, etc. My dad's auto had the gas piston freeze up under the same conditions...

[Zeede]

As others have mentioned, how many rounds of ammo you've trained yourself with matters way more than the way the shotgun loads the next round. If you have to think to pump the next round into the chamber when you're practicing some rapid fire at the range, you haven't shot it enough.

Now, that said, since you've stated that you don't intend to use the gun for any of the clay sports, you're going to want something really reliable, and that means buying something from a quality company. Home defense weapons will be used rarely (hopefully never) and you want to be *sure* it goes bang when you need it. A quality pump will generally be cheaper than a quality autoloader. Note that in either case, you are going to have to be familiar w/ how to clean and maintain the shotgun, because as many have stated, you are going to be putting enough rounds through it that it'll need cleaning, pump, inertia-driven, or gas-operated.

The only clear advantage a pump has over an autoloader is the potential for deterence simply by pumping the first round into the chamber. That click-clack is so well-known now from movies, television and video games that sometimes it'll send the bad guys running by itself. Now some autoloaders make a loud noise when you press the button to load the first round, but the pump of a shotgun is more distinct. If he hears it, and is in a state of mind to give a damn, he's going to think twice about going through with whatever he intended when he broke in.

Cameron

P.S. Note that 00 buckshot will penetrate several walls, and smaller shot won't reliably stop a bad guy. Do you live in an apartment? Do you have brick in your outer walls or something similar that would stop the rounds from penetrating to your neighbors?

[MassMark]

The only clear advantage a pump has over an autoloader is the potential for deterence simply by pumping the first round into the chamber. That click-clack is so well-known now from movies, television and video games that sometimes it'll send the bad guys running by itself. Now some autoloaders make a loud noise when you press the button to load the first round, but the pump of a shotgun is more distinct. If he hears it, and is in a state of mind to give a damn, he's going to think twice about going through with whatever he intended when he broke in.

I'm of the belief that the "click-clack" can get you killed....If a Bad guy enters my home with intent to do harm to myself or my family, the only sound he'll hear is BOOM...Just my opinion - but I'm sticking to it.

[glocktoberfest]

I vote 12 gage pump . 00 BS .

[GunTech]

MassMark,

I agree 100%.

#4 buck, or even smaller pellets will work very well at room length, with less danger of overpenetration. The disadvantage of small pellets is that they lose energy quickly - not much of an issue at 10 feet. However, it is noce to have options. For inside defense, I think #4 shot is a good compromise.

[Alphazulu6]

870 Pump action ( or Winchester 1200/1300, etc) all are good.

I would agree with an automatic as a home defense gun as long as its an 1100. If its not an 1100, then no stick with pumps.

[CWL]

Chris Rhines said it all, it depends on the Operator not the gun.

My shotgun trainer can work his Remmy 870 faster than I can work my Beretta semiauto. We both work our guns at the speed necessary to hit our targets.

[Lee Lapin]

It doesn't matter so much which action type you use as long as you are practiced and experienced with the firearm. These days a good quality semiauto shotgun is apt to be about as reliable as a good pumpgun, given good ammo for both. Reliability is not that much of an issue, and speed of operation is no issue at all- a pump can be run as fast as most semiautos, and a trained and practiced shooter doesn't have to think about pumping the action- it becomes a reflex given time and practice.

So your only real issue is cost- a semi costs more than a pump, usually a good bit more- twice as much or more, even. There is no disadvantage to using a pump, given enough experience with the gun. I grew up shooting pumpguns and have no qualms at all in using any one of several 870s here as a HD tool. If you can afford it, a good semi will do the job for you. If money is tight, you will be at no disadvantage at all with a pumpgun. As Louis Awerbuck says, tis the singer not the song. Your ability is more important than your hardware.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

[Man With A Gun]

Any good pump or auto will do but for God's sake, and the guy who lives next door, do not use BUCKSHOT..

All you need at room ranges inside a house is birdshot. At close range, an we are talking about 15-25 feet here, it will make a large hole which bleeds a lot. Friends of mine go WILD and use #2 shot as their heavy load but most keep #6 to #4 shot loaded.

Try some of these loads at the ranges you anticipate targets and see for yourself. Buckshot is deadly all the way to the end of the block.

[Chris Rhines]

...but for God's sake, and the guy who lives next door, do not use BUCKSHOT.. This has been debunked time and time again, but it still comes up. Birdshot at any distance does not have the reliable penetration needed to reach the vital structures of the human body. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

If I kept a shotgun for home defense, I would load it with #00 buckshot or slugs.

- Chris

[Geno]

Let me tell you, American's make one product better than ANY country in the world...the pump-action shotgun! I'll take a Remington, Winchester, Mossberg or Ithaca. I would defend my life with any of these! In fact, I do. However, I do prefer the Remington due to steel receiver, and simple the style. The others aren't bad, it's my preference. Re: auto or pump, simplistic rules. And, yes, pump is as fast as autoload if you are practiced.

Edit to add:

Bird shot...I'm living proof it won't kill at 80ish-100ish yards...it hurts like Hades, but it won't kill! I got hit twice at the range (I believe with 4 shot). It broke my skin, and bled, but it didn't go in. It happened at the Bald Mountain Range, and the gentle man in the clays area was using 4 shot, not 8 shot. He was also using full-power loads...3" magnums. The range officers were absolutely floored. They helped him pack and walked him out.

Oh yeah, and I use either 00 buckshot or buckshot & slugs.

[Lee Lapin]

Ah, the #2 shot thing again. So here's the medical journal article again: https://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html

I use 1600 FPS 8-pellet 00 backed up with full velocity 1 ounce slugs in the 870s here, but have no nearby neighbors (heck, from the front door to the driveway gate at Casa Lapin is 51 yards). It's what you might call rural out here.

Birdshot at sufficiently close range can be lethal and might prove a stopper. But birdshot is better left to the birds IMO, larger projectiles are intended for larger targets and I had rather gamble on something else. YMMV of course, it's your assault/gunfight/home invasion/robbery attempt etc., and I don't have an invitation so I won't be there.

Stay safe, y'all,

lpl/nc

[silverlance]

birdshot no good.
00 buck good

personally prefer hardcoated #4 buck.
people who think #4 is small ought to cut one up and look inside. those are NOT small balls. think of being hit by about 35 .25 caliber balls...

[Deaf Smith]

It depends on if you practice and hunt with the type of shotgun you want to use. Some people shoot lots of rounds with pumps and can be very fast with them. Others grew up on autos and really, like automatic transmissions, they are just used to pressing on the gas pedal.

Now if you are klutzy, I guess an autoloader (but racking the action at night, and not touching the trigger, is not a klutzy activity!)

Since I grew up with pumps, a 590 Mossie and 870 Remington are my two scatterguns. 590 is chromed with rifle sights, the 870 is a Magnum Marine. Both are hell-on-wheels.

But if I shot autoloading shotguns more, then maybe I'd pick a M2 or Remington 11-87.

[JBadgley]

If ur lookin to buy a shotgun get a Mossberg with an 18.5 inch barrel. Either way with a pump, if u heard that "ker-chunk" sound what would u do. If for some reason they are still around afterwards and u get to the point where u have to shoot make sure ur loaded with 7.5 shot which for one thing will mess the "bad guys" up pretty bad and for another if anyone else is in another room u dont have to worry about the shot passing through the wall

[rantingredneck]

I keep a Remington 870 20" with 8 shot extension cruiser ready. Also keep a Mossy 835 24" loaded. I'm of the opinion that you can never have too many scatterguns :). Others have answered your question well. Auto vs. Pump just depends on how much you want to spend and which you want to spend some time with. It's the software after all as long as you have quality hardware. I've owned a few autos, Rem 1100 being one of them. If I were buying another it would be either the 1100 or 11-87. I also had a crappy Chuck Daly that liked to light strike primers. Not good.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Birdshot may kill a BG but it won't STOP him as fast. I want him down and out of the fight or the fight out of him NOW. I have a wife and two small kids to protect. I worry more about the BG spraying and praying in my house than where my lead is going. I know where my kids are, he doesn't and could care less.

My house is also set up to where I don't have to worry about shots inside my house or outside. My plasma TV will be toast if I'm shooting down the hallway toward the front foyer but it can be replaced. Think through your tactics in your home. Know where your lanes of fire will be. Some houses are easier to defend than others. Work this stuff out ahead of time. Then bring enough gun.

My 870 has 5 00 buck followed by 2 1oz Brenneke KO slugs. If that don't stop him nothing will.

[1911user]

If ur lookin to buy a shotgun get a Mossberg with an 18.5 inch barrel. Either way with a pump, if u heard that "ker-chunk" sound what would u do. If for some reason they are still around afterwards and u get to the point where u have to shoot make sure ur loaded with 7.5 shot which for one thing will mess the "bad guys" up pretty bad and for another if anyone else is in another room u dont have to worry about the shot passing through the wall

That dreaded ker-chunk sound makes a dandy target for anyone armed who has some training. Birdshot does not penetrate bad guys enough to bet your life on it stopping them quickly. Birdshot is for the birds and buckshot is for larger targets.

[Megawatt]

Thanks to everybody for the wealth of information in your responses. I am learning a lot from the responses. The main thing I have learned is that the most important thing with any gun is USER TRAINING and being practiced and experienced with the gun he chooses and to have a gun that fits him and he is comfortable shooting. If I choose the Pump it will probably be the 870, if I like the fit and feel. If I go with the Auto....Hmmmm....I don't really want to have to deal with gas operation and would want the simplicest mechanism. I have the S&W 916-A, which I want to replace, in the closet which I have never shot and I have a full box of NO. 8 shells too. It would be wise for me to shoot up that box of shells plus more and get the "feel" of the pump before I buy another one. The only shotguns I ever shot were single/double barrels and bolt actions. When I was younger I did a lot of shooting so I do practice proper gun safety.

When I make up my mind and make a purchase after checking out different guns for feel and fit for me, there is a place I think I can possible go to and shoot a lot even if I have to become a member and that is the gun and skeet club where I live. Great, Huh? I am 55 years old now. When I was 14 I went there as a jr. deputy with the sheriff's deputies and did get to shoot 4 clays and I hit em all. It was fun. We shot 22 rifles every Saturday for about 10 weeks, got to shoot pistols and got to see a Thompson Sub Machine gun fired. We even got to tour Louisiana's Angola State Prison, New Orleans Parish Prison and they took us to an LSU football game. Everyone needs to tour a prison. Makes you think twice about committing crime. Sure got my attention. I seen enough to know I never want to go there.

Ammo Choice. You guys gave many good opinions on which ammo to use in different enviornments. I live alone so for me it's probably gonna be 00 buck or No. 4 buck and can't forget about slugs depending on how they shoot in the gun I purchase. My nearest neighbor to the North is over 150 yards. East about 100 yards is a gravel pit office inhabited during the day but not at night. I have no wife, no kids which means no help, no backup. My only "friends" here in a hostile situation are Mr. Sig Sauer, Mr. Smith, Mr. Wesson and Mr. Peter Beretta and the "punch" they carry directed by me. They need to carry a powerful punch. I like what I read about 00 buckshot going through walls and here is why. If a BG "thinks" he is safe behind a wall in MY house after he has damaged my property by forcing his way in trying to get me or what is mine, I want him to rethink it as he lays on the floor after them OO's reached through that wall and got him. When my only gun was my S&W Mod. 66 357 I loaded it then and still today with staggered hollow point and FMJ. The first shot is HP looking for flesh. The second is FMJ in the event I miss with the HP and he or she ducks behind a wall. So, I live alone and the "friends' I have with me must pack a powerful punch, even enough to disable a vehicle......getaway vehicle.

I have a monitored alarm system. My wakeup to alarm weapon of choice, which is a one second grab on the night stand, is the P226 9mm. The shotgun would be my choice for a stranger knocking at the door who after knocking for a while decides to check the door knobs to see if they are unlocked. That's where the "click-clack" sound of the pump may come in handy or even better.....Ker-Chunk. I just learned those two words from other good reply posts. "Click-clack" sounds scary but KER-CHUNK sounds DEADLY. Another term I just learned is....shortstroking. Hmmm, that could be a problem but after training with the gun enough it shouldn't be a problem or at least I would know how to deal with it. I know any gun can fail. Having a backup would be the thing to do. Backup to the shotgun, for me, would be the P266 or mod. 66.

Finally, if you're wondering why all the concern or paranoia, here is a true story that happened to me. I lived alone in a mobile home next to my mother's house. One Christmas Day, in the early nineties, after going back to my trailer after the family get together I heard a car drive up while I was watching TV. A passenger gets out, comes upon the porch and starts knocking. I look through the peephole in the door and recognize the guy as one of the customers that used to come to my parents grocery store. He had and still has a record for theft and dope a few miles long. Well, he continued to knock but I played possum and was very quiet. Then, I heard him check the door knob to see if I had possibly left it open. Then he walked to the back door and checked that door. THEN....I GOT MY P226. My heart pounding, I said to myself....Oh S....T. Then, he climbed on the tongue of the trailer and proceeded to try to take off the screen to the window. Heart really pounding now. I stood in the hall shielding myself, gun aimed at the window. He was trying to pry out the screen and the window. Thoughts flying through my mind........."Am I gonna have to shoot this Bastard? Legal implications. Living with the thought I killed someone. Is this amount of force necessary in this situation? Teaching career. jail?......ANGOLA?????" The intruder at this point decided to give up and leave. Whew! I called the Sheriff's office. They came over and saw where he tried to come in. They arrested him. He admited guilt and served about 10 to 12 months for his actions. Was he armed? I doubt it. Would I have shot him if he had broken in the window and actually jumped in the trailer? I would have. However, I'm glad things turned out the way they did. Woulda been nice to have a KER-CHUNKER.

[nemoaz]

If ur lookin to buy a shotgun get a Mossberg with an 18.5 inch barrel. Either way with a pump, if u heard that "ker-chunk" sound what would u do. If for some reason they are still around afterwards and u get to the point where u have to shoot make sure ur loaded with 7.5 shot which for one thing will mess the "bad guys" up pretty bad and for another if anyone else is in another room u dont have to worry about the shot passing through the wall

Despite all aspects of this "expert" advise being thoroughly debunked, it continues to be spread, like so much cow crap on a boot sole.

[Ala Dan]

18" barrel Remington 870 Marine Magnum~! ;):D

[kgriggs8@yahoo.com]

The Rem 870HD with or with out the mag extension is hard to beat. I got one and I never lack for comfort when I here something. I have a Beretta for when I have to go check out a noise and the shotgun for when they come for me and I want to stay put. 99.99% of the time, it is a racoon or other stupid thing but if people ever break in, I want something I know will work. Pumps are reliable and 12ga is about as much power as you can get in a shoulder fired weapon.

I have AKs, ARs, an UZI a bunch of handguns and other rifles but the ones I trust my life to are the Rem 870 and the Beretta 92fs. Both have proven themselves as rugged and reliable.

[1911 guy]

Either pump or autoloader will work, just avoid brands you've never heard of for 100 bucks at the pawn shop. Go with a known maker, reliable model. Then take that shotgun and get some training. Using it for a few days heavily will let you decide what, if anything, you want to change.

[doubleg]

This is where the training comes in. You should have so many rounds through your shotgun that you don't have to think about working the slide; you just work the slide and engage the next target, subconsciously.

While your adrenalin is pumping you will pump subconsciously anyway. I have found myself doing this during high stress hunting in the woods and I have yet to practice shooting my shotgun.

[foghornl]

My humble 1/50th of $1 on home defense shotgun...

I have a Maverick 88, set up with the 18-1/2" cylinder-bore barrel. Inside that is 5+1 rounds of 3"Mag #4Buckshot, and 5 PMC brand slugs on a butt cuff.

Through use of the pattern board, and the associated sore shoulder, etc, I have found that the Rem 3" #4Buck works best in MY shotgun. #1Buck is decent, 00Buck ain't worth a hoot-in-Hades. 00B at more than 15 Yds in MY gun is all over the place...maybe 1 or 2 hits on a standard sillouhette target.

PMC slugs have given me the best groups @50Yds, the Brennekke "KO's" are only a fractional bit larger groupings, the Rem "Sluggers" and Fed "Classic" slugs are very poor accuracy wise...again, in MY gun. Shooting buddy with the very same setup has almost exactly opposite results in HIS Maverick....Sluggers, Fed Classics, and the Win 'silver box' slugs are great in HIS gun, PMC's are less than worthless. Brennekke KO's are also good in his.

So, practice A LOT with the HS shotgun you like. Buy a box of as many different brands & sizes of slugs/buckshot that you can find, and test them out.

[CWL]

No Buckshot

I use buckshot (Fed reduced recoil 00) because I want to be able to hit what I'm aiming at at the end of the hall. My shotty+buck combo is good for headshots at 15yards, wouldn't try it with birdloads.

[EdLaver]

I have both, a winchester 1300 and a saiga 12...I think I would use the auto saiga 12 first though.

[Scorpiusdeus]

Stick with the 870 and spend the money you save on shells to practice with. Chris Rhines speaks the truth.

Train, Train, and Train some more.

With a little effort I am comfortable with my rack, shoot time with my 870.

Not that you should ever count on the bad guys not reacting, but if you are shooting at them with a shotgun I'd be surprised if they stuck around past two rounds.

[Deaf Smith]

I know of one definate case where a home owner did rack his shotgun and caused three men who were tresspassing to get.. and get out of there fast.

I can't say of any studies where racking a shotgun is definatly the way to go, but we do know police do rack their shotguns and sometimes it does take the fight out of criminals.

It is also known that in India the British would call to load guns and that alone would stop many a riot.

So I would not discount out of hand the effect of racking a shotgun. Not saying it would have a postive effect everytime, but there are times I think it would cool things down.

[Geno]

That's good:

If God intended us to shoot
over and unders our eyes would
be one atop the other not side-by-side

:D

[texas bulldog]

you know...i don't visit the shotgun forum that often. but when i do, i am inexplicably drawn to these HD threads. and it amazes me how quickly they degenerate into "bird vs. buck" and "to rack or not to rack?"

anyways...
- i would recommend buckshot over bird. as already stated by the shotgun gurus on this board, birdshot is for the birds. with regard to over-penetration, i suggest practice on shot placement.
- as for racking, i just skip the whole debate and use a short SxS. fewer shots, of course, but that's what the handgun is for. it's also what practice is for. but if you insist on keeping the chamber empty on your pump action, i suggest the "ker-shuck" be immediately followed by a "boom".

[Fast Frank]

I'm not going to go into the debate about the tactical advisability of racking the pump gun for the effects of the sound it makes.

But because this is a debate on the differences between the pump gun and the auto, I want to set the record straight about something.

Many people seem to feel that the "racking sound" is a benefit that is only available to pump gun owners.

Sorry, but that just isn't the case.

I have an 11-87P. It's an automatic shotgun made for cops. In my eyes, it's just about perfect for dealing with bad guys.

For those that have never taken one apart, the 11-87 is basically an 870 with a spring in the stock and a gas piston where the pump handle goes.

There's a gizmo in the loading door on the bottom that locks the slide open, but otherwise the two guns are very similar and work the same way.

When you fill the mag on that 11-87 and "Rack the action" to put a round in the chamber, it goes "Ker- chunk" just like a pump gun does.

I absolutely guarantee that a bad guy hearing that sound is NOT going to think "That's not a pump gun".

So, the whole concept that a pump gun can be given extra points because of the sounds it makes just isn't valid.

Picking up any shotgun that has a full mag and charging it will make that noise.

[MassMark]

Am I the only one who keeps his shotgun C1?

[rantingredneck]

Since I have small kids at home I keep mine firing pin down on an empty chamber. I leave it out of the safe at night so it'll be readily accessible, I just don't want it that ready to go if one of the kids gets up in the middle of the night and wanders into our bedroom

[Chuck R.]

Am I the only one who keeps his shotgun C1?


No, my Benelli M1 is stored C1 in a locked V-Line gun case with push button simplex lock. I don’t subscribe to the racking noise theory.

As for auto Vs pump, I believe it’s better to go with what you’re used to. I hunt waterfowl with a Benelli SBE so the M1S90 is a natural choice for a HD gun. I figure I load, unload, chamber and clear my SBE enough times in the dark before and after hunting for it to benefit me for my HD gun.

My thoughts run kind of counter from most guys when it comes to pump Vs auto when it comes to reliability. I’ve owned semis all my life and have never had a problem with a quality gun that is properly maintained using good ammo. I have however short shucked a pump several times when shooting in awkward positions, IE a layout boat or blind. Just try pumping while laying on your back with a left to right target swing. I’ve also taken a couple tactical shotgun classes and seen plenty of short shucked guns during those too. So for me, with the human operator added into the equation, I find the auto more reliable.

Some of the other benefits of an auto are the ability to fire repeatedly one handed and also fired easily in awkward positions IE prone. Again I think that experience, what you’re used to, and will train with, trump the actual system.

Chuck

[Zach S]

With a pump, a person has to THINK about "pumping" the next round whereas with an autoloader all you have to do is pull the trigger.
Not true, with some practice, its second nature. So second nature that I try to pump autos. So, an auto is actually slower for me.

Am I the only one who keeps his shotgun C1?
No:D

[MCgunner]

http://imageigloo.com/images/6966PICT0097.JPG


Why does it have to be tacticool? I like old school. Hard to jam a side by side and I think 2 rounds is plenty.

Not true, with some practice, its second nature. So second nature that I try to pump autos. So, an auto is actually slower for me.

I have a semi auto and a pump I duck hunt with. I pump the pump naturally, but because the auto is so soft on the shoulder, I'm much, much faster on repeat shots with the auto regardless of the fact that I've been shooting a pump nearly 50 years now, started at age 7 with a JC Higgins .410.

[DawgFvr]

Agreed! I watched a guy with an old "Davis" wooden tennis racket just thrash all comers with their fancy light weight carbon fiber, state of the art rackets. Remember "Tin Cup" and the way he tore up the course with an entrenching tool...and all those guys with their expensive golf clubs. It's not the tool...it's the operator of the tool that makes it so lethal.

[MassMark]

That's good to hear. I subscribe to the school that am empty chamber is a bad thing - especially in a home defense weapon. The only empty chamber guns in my house are the ones in the safe that I don't plan on using to defend my life. Racking anything, (pistol, shotgun, rifle), does little more in my mind that give your position away and in a heightened state of stress, give you one more thing to pooch up...Pushing a safety button seems to have a lot shorter travel than racking a slide - any slide. If it's meant to defend my life and my family, it's C1 24/7.....

[Dave Markowitz]

Why does it have to be tacticool? I like old school. Hard to jam a side by side and I think 2 rounds is plenty.

Me likey.

[ucfd_cyclist@yahoo.com]

I have a Mossberg 500 A persuader that I use for home defense. (My AK is a little too much for home defense) It is a pump action, 18.5 inch barrel, with a pistol grip.

Put yourself in the position of a criminal. Now imagine breaking into someones house, it's all dark and quiet. You slowly make your way inside and all of a sudden you hear a shotgun action being pumped. Keep in mind the psychological affect of this and the thoughts going through your mind after you hear it.

That sound will make most intruders have second thoughts, but if they are also armed it may not matter. An autoloader will allow you to take out more "opponents" quicker than a pump as well as baffle those still standing as you make your way toward them.

[Lee Lapin]

An autoloader will allow you to take out more "opponents" quicker than a pump...

How so?

lpl/nc

[MCgunner]

You slowly make your way inside and all of a sudden you hear a shotgun action being pumped. Keep in mind the psychological affect of this and the thoughts going through your mind after you hear it.

I'm thinkin' that's not nearly the shock of starin' down the twin tubes of a side by side, frankly. :D That's sorta like starin' death in the face. And, your wife won't have to worry about short strokin' it in her moment of fear.

[boomstik45]

Is condition one as safe for a shotgun as it is for a pistol? I know my glock won't fire while loaded and ready to fire if it's dropped. So my question is simply: will a shotgun fire if the chamber is loaded and the gun is ready to go...if it's dropped from chest or shoulder high? Will it matter if it's dropped on it's stock or on it's side? If that's not a problem, then by all means, keep the gun condition one. I'm serious about that question, I really don't know if an 870 or 1100 (or any other shotgun) is susceptible to firing when dropped.

As for "racking" anything at all, it would seem to me that a sound tactical practice would be to acquire the weapon, rack the slide, then go to a position of cover. I don't see the point of racking the slide and staying put or racking the slide once getting to a position of cover from which you will begin your defense. Seems to me that it makes more sense to get your hands on the weapon, charge it if it isn't (for whatever reason) and move to cover, all as fluidly as possible. My pistols are always kept chambered and ready to fire.

[leadcounsel]

Semi auto for reliability, durability and weight reduction.

[ronto]

Get a pump for HD...Hit 1 BG with 00 Buck and you'll probably have to shoot the other 1 or 2 BG's in the back if you deem it appropriate in the circumstances.

[elkhuntingfool]

Pump/Auto - what does it really matter? 2-3 BG's in your house - you'll get off one or two shots until those 2-3 BGs have shot you dead. I'm guessing at that point you won't be second guessing your choice.

Or, in reality, when they hear you rack the pump, they'll run out of your house screaming like little sissies - then you have leveled the playing field. :neener:

[ucfd_cyclist@yahoo.com]

Lee: An autoloader will be faster than a pump to most people faced with an intruder. They will be pumped full of adrenalin and shaking from fear that they can pull the trigger faster without fumbling with the action. Again this is refering to the average person and not the experienced shooter that can control their emotions during these times.

I meant no offense to us pump owners who have them and who have the skill to proficiently use them. I was just pointing out the "average" persons abilities during stressful times.

MCgunner: You have a VERY valid point. I was only pointing out the psychological affect of the "sound" of a pump action. The "sight" of a barrel (or barrels) in your face will DEFINATLY shall we say...fill the pants with poo!

[Lee Lapin]

ucfd_cyclist,

I would refer you to the quotes in my SIG.

The question is almost never hardware- it is SOFTWARE. The issue is getting hot lead on target, and that is almost totally an issue of training, skillsets and self discipline, not one that is hardware dependent. Any person who will fumble a pumpgun under stress is just as likely to fumble a semiauto- I know of far too many instances, for example, where a person groping under pressure for the safety on a semiauto pistol has instead hit the magazine release. Not as likely with shotguns as handguns, I know, but illustrative of the problem nonetheless.

It is IMHO a disservice to any budding defensive shooter to offer hardware as a panacea, as a substitute to training and practice and developing skills. The idea that one can, as sm/Steve so often puts it, "buy skills and targets" simply by purchasing a different sort of gun, or some different accessory or other to bolt onto an existing gun, is anathema to me.

We will simply have to agree to disagree on the matter, it seems.

Regards,

lpl/nc

[don]

Old model 12 winchester. Pull trigger, hold back trigger and pump. Fires every time I pump.Is this normal or is it necessary to pull the trigger every time you pump with most pump guns?

[Dave McCracken]

Don, like the Model 97 and Ithaca's early Model 37s, one can fan fire by doig just that. It's quite easy. Harder is to hit when doing so.

[GunTech]

Yep. Shotguns without disconnectors have their own problems. Hitting anything while fast pumping is a trick, particularly with serious sociual ammo like 00 buck. I've also seen more ND with Model 12s and 97 than any other shotgun. That being said, there is nothing so cool as a fully rigged out 97 trench gun, IMO.

I like the SS, although I'd go for external 'rabbit ear' hammers, just for nostalgia's sake. There are a variety of short barreled 'coach guns' that can be had for a decent price, and they certainly have there own 'fear' factor. Thanks to Hollywood, every criminal knows that with a cut down double, even with the eyesight and coordination of Mr. Magoo, you can take out the front line of a pro football team.

:)

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Well, I'm gonna go against the grain and suggest a Saiga 12 gauge. It comes with a 5 round detachable mag, or you can get a 10 round mag as well. Works extremely well. You can get it "tacticool" for very little extra money.

[al1599]

870 pump here. A semi would be nice but hearing the racking of a pump is music to my ears.

[The Deer Hunter]

As much as I trust my Benelli not to fail, I keep my 870 as my "goto" gun. I think its because the controls are much simpler, just the little slide release under the triggger guard, the safety and the trigger.

IMO the bolt release bolt hold open buttons could just get confusing. Also, I can check the chamer with my weak sided arm still on the forearm, while with the Benelli I need to open it with my right and check it with my left(its dark foo!).

[czbegenner]

The main thing to remember is not which Shotgun , but which one you can handle and train with. Let's face it if you dont do any traning with it , then its
no good.Fire the weapon you choose as much as possible try different positions if you can find a bulding that you can use and dry fire the shotgun
moving from room to room, having doors closed and then trying to open them
span each room one at a time. this is a way you can learn your shotgun.Remember situations change and you have to improvise, adapt and overcome

[MCgunner]

A bonus to my side-by-side, I'm going to be pulling the cylinder choke out of the left barrel soon and screwin' in the full and loading up with AA 7 1/2 and killin' those pesky, tasty doves that infest the area down here. :D IC for the close shots, full for the last ditch prayer back ups and longish passing shots. That sort of thing isn't easy to do with a dedicated tacticool gun. I'm a hunter than happens to have a shotgun in his bedroom. LOL I've never killed a man or took a shotgun course, but I could fill the bed of your F250 with all the birds I've shot over the last 40 years. I can handle a shotgun just fine.

John Browning might have invented the auto loader, but God, himself, invented the side-by-side, I'm convinced. :D

[srduy@yahoo.com]

I have an older model Smith and Wesson 916A. I am wondering if a longer barrel was available to interchange with the riot size barrel. The serial # is 8B45XX. Thanks.

[Lee Lapin]

srduy,

Welcome to THR!

The S&W 916 is long out of production, any spare barrels will have to be located via the used market. How good the chances are of finding one, I don't know.

A lot will depend on the length of your gun's magazine tube. If yours has the standard sporting length magazine tube, you should be OK, but if it has the riot gun 8-shot magazine tube, I doubt you can find a sporting length barrel that will fit.

One of the larger dealers on the net is http://www.barrelexchange.com/ , you can check with them. I see some listings at http://www.corsonsbarrels.com/s&wbarrels.htm that might help too.

Good luck,

lpl/nc

[distra]

After watching a high end Bennilli semi auto jam after 6 rds today in our tactical match, I'm sticking with a pump. It's reliable and simple to operate.

[MrBill120]

...what about a Stoeger Coach Gun for home defense??? Seems like a simple alternative....especially for the Mrs...crack the barrel and you know its safe.

[doc2rn]

The last thing a burglar wants to hear is a 12g. pump cycling a round into the chamber.

[Fast Frank]

Why does everybody keep saying that?

Pump guns don't sound any different than autos.

Click on the pic and watch...

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/FastFrank4x4/vids/th_929d565b.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/FastFrank4x4/vids/?action=view&current=929d565b.flv)

[Clyde Nocar]

NEMOAZ: What are the "fact" about Mossy 500 that have been debunked?

[Fast Frank]

What are the "fact" about Mossy 500 that have been debunked?

I had to go back to page two to figure out what you are talking about.

Have you read the rest of the thread?

The "facts" that were referred to were the 7 1/2 shot, the passing through walls,and the fear caused by the "Racking sound".

I'm pretty sure that there aren't any arguments about the Mossberg.

[elmerfudd]

Well, I'm gonna go against the grain and suggest a Saiga 12 gauge. It comes with a 5 round detachable mag, or you can get a 10 round mag as well. Works extremely well. You can get it "tacticool" for very little extra money.

Personally I think the Saiga12 is about the most awesome close range weapon available to civilians. 10 shots of 12g buckshot as fast as you can pull the trigger, stick mags for fast reloads and 20 round drums are available now too. My guess is it's only a matter of time before they ban the thing. My biggest concern with using a Saiga would be the legal repercussions afterwards. I'd hate to be the defendant when they display a tricked out Saiga with a folding stock and forward pistol grip to the jury. Even stock it looks pretty damn intimidating with that big 10 round mag sticking out. Still, if you're looking for pure firepower I think it's got just about everything else beat.

[Stretchman]

Pump guns don't sound any different than autos.


Specially not from the business end.

C1 on a shotty is a no no for remington. No sear safety. Meaning the weapon gets a jolt, it can fire. Bad idea if you drop it in the hallway.

Mossbergs may have a sear safety, I don't know. Ask a mossy person.

[Fast Frank]

It's not kept in condition one.

It sits with the mag full and the chamber empty.

But the point behind that post was that it sounds the same as a pump gun when it's cycled.

[Dgindlesperger]

Pump it up baby.......45 is first line thought

[pinstripe]

Winchester protects my cave. Bought a Winchester 120 from a gun show a couple of years back. They had it marked for $150, which was a fair price for the gun. I looked in my billfold and only had $80 left after some other purchases. He says "what the heck," and I ended up with a like new Winchester 120 for $80. I have shot at least 200 rds. through the gun and it is right on spot.

[farscott]

To echo the words of others with more experience than me: I use pumps for HD because all of my sporting shotguns, with one exception for an O/U, are pumps. So I shoot trap with a pump, shoot some skeet with a pump, and hunt with several pumps. That consistency gives me lots of "muscle memory" and experience with shooting under the stresses of competition and hunting. I believe the best thing one can do is pick a platform, learn to use it, and stick with it. Lots of people on this forum call that "BA/UU/R". I just call it practice.

If I had chosen an auto platform, I believe that I would be fine with it. However, I like the low costs of pump guns as I can buy four good pumps for less than the cost of one good auto.

[ouchman7]

YO MEGAWATT , after reading down the posts ,i noticed you have the visualization going on about split second shot generation.you know you are wright.(in what you posted about 15 or 20 posts before this one). you dont need anyone to tell you your wright.it the natural progression of a shotgun enthusiast / owner is to feel the time it takes to get off a shot.especially if you own one /two /three...for specifically self-defense.even a pure collector has self-defense visualizaton.a semi (properly maintained)is definetly gonna afford you precious seconds/second. i keep mine brand spankin new.after my initial pump choices ,i ,for the exact reason you mention in your post about 18 posts above this one ,bought a remington 1100 tact 2. you know ,the odgreen one. now they come in all black as of 2007.its never been shot.my pumps go to the range.that remi /semi stays home clean and new for just that GOD forbidden occasion. they do take more intracite cleaning and maintenance.but thats if you use it every other weekend.you keep another one for hunting and ranging.GOD forbid you have a problem ,you have your "rapid fire" buddy.i mean thats what we are talkin about ,wright? the only thing i would do different is to check out the benelli m2 or m3 or for that matter ,if you got the $cratch,a benelli m4 combat mega shotgun.im now trying to put the money together for a m4 without my wife finding out till i get it home. they are practically maintenance free. now im rambling on and on. but you are on the wright track with the second saving home invasion offensive. maybe ill sell my never shot, rem tact 2 1100 ,factory extension .combat .od green,full pistol grip stock,with a whole pack of stainless 1100 piston rings to boot. if your or anyone is interested.i figure its brand new but it depreciated a couple of hundred bucks in a year.paid $755.00 for her. ill be checkin in now more often.who knows maybe someone knows a good deal when they read it. got pictures of my minty 1100. but i digress . dont know if its wrong to put a cell ph.# up. hope not 5163826876. never had any luck with sellin stuff anyway.guess im not really hoping to sell her anyway. my username would get me to the phone.

[ouchman7]

yo megawatt , your exactly wright for trying to buy time in a GOD forsaken situation like a home invasion. just the phrase got me thinkin of puttin a few drops of rem oil in /on my brand new ,never shot,11 month old, remi semi 1100 tact 2 ,factory extension,od green,rapid fire ,12 gauge.yes ,it takes a little more cleanin and stuff.if you keep it brand ,never shot new ,then it dont require crap. see my pumps are for rangein and huntin.even they aint shot thatmuch.but the remi semi is virgin.so if the **** hits the fan or a stupid bad guy picks my house,there will be no pumpin interuptions.every second is devoted to my right index finger.with the factory extended magazine and all,8 shots if GOD is with me ,should be enough.reloading you cant do too much about. i guess you can put a snare drum on your rig but you know,$$$$$$$$. im kinda glad i have it. brand new = maximum reliability. so your on the wright track, lookin to save intermediate pumpin time and all. hell ,ive been thinkin of quenchin my thirst for alittle variety and maybe sellin her so i can go back to the gun shop. i kinda miss the place.anyway ,time saved is survival. and if anyones lookin for a never shot ,remi semi,tact 2 edition,the whole works ,extra stainless o rings thrown in and all. just not sellin her with her case. figure i paid almost $800.00 less than a year,well no ,its about a year now. its safe to say she depreciated a bit. say $150.00 maybe $200.00. she has never been shot ,so that depreciation is just for drivin her off the lot. anyway megawatt ,stay fast and sorry for ramblin on so much. haven't been here for a while . too busy. nice to be back saturating all this great info again. and i hope it ok to put a number on post. so if anybody lookin for brand new for discount ,and i haven't changed my mind , inquire my username at 5163826876, later

[ouchman7]

sorry for the double post people . i thought i erased the first one of the 2 by accident.

[ouchman7]

yo elmer fudd , are you forgeting the m4? if someone offred you a saiga 12 or a benelli m4 combat ,would you really take the saiga ? i mean free ,not to buy,just give you a cost free choice. i'd take the benelli and run before they changed their mind. m4 #1

[ouchman7]

yo mega watt ,i hear ya.you need a trigger pull in the middle of your trigger pulls not a pump in the middle of your trigger pulls.have i more semi than i need right now ?yes.for info on a 1 yr new,remi semi,1100,tact2,fact extension7or8,i forget now.never shot,od green,yes never shot,climate controlled storage for only 13months and held once.18"b,and once again,NEVER SHOT.case not incl.$250.00off orig $800.00 purchase pr.5163826876 ouchman .wish i could have bought her with a deal such as this! first time i ever thought of making room in my humidor ,hope i dont change my mind. megawatt alphazulu anyone? keeping her would work for me also. later gentelmen

[DHart]

Training and practice are critically important, regardless of the platform. The "experience" part of that will teach you what you can truly rely on, too!

My shotgun experience started with a Stoeger Coachgun 12 ga. and Uplander 12 ga. SxS which I learned to use for Cowboy Competition shooting. "Two-fer-sure." Nice little guns. Reliable. Deadly. Then soon came an awesome Mossberg 500A 18.5" "Persuader". Stone reliable. Six shots. Controls in the perfect place - right where your control fingers are! Shotgun perfection, really, in my view.

Then I discovered semi-auto shottys and the rate at which they can so effortlessly fire! I became ENCHANTED with the thought of emptying the gun of it's contents in less than a second; the ability to empty the gun of it's contents before the first empty hull even hit the ground! "WHAT FIREPOWER!!!!", I thought. So I bought an 1100 Competition, and it was nice. Followed up with a Winchester SX2 Competition and an FN Self Loading Police (also an SX2 design). Great guns when they worked right! But over time, I found that the self-loaders jammed occasionally, especially when pointed downward and during colder weather. This in spite of my very rigorous cleaning and using full power ammo. Very sadly, I became DISENCHANTED with the semi-autos for defense use. Sold the Winchester and the FN self loaders. I still have the 1100 Competition.

I shoot my Mossberg 500A Persuader nearly every day, even if just a few shells. Rain or shine, clean or dirty, hot or cold, horizontal or vertical. Never fails. Ever. It's my "mole-getter", don't ya know? ;-) And while short shucking in a defense scenario is always a possibility, I've come to realize that if I just do my part in racking that sucker with vigor, it will function with remarkable reliability - and rapidly.

The Mossberg 500A Persuader IS my "go-to" shotgun these days and most likely will be for years to come. Always at bedside at night. (Along with a couple of able pistols - usually a COlt 1911 and Glock 23). THe Mossberg is kept fully loaded, C1. All it takes is a flick of the thumb on the tang mounted safety to bring it to action and a slight shift of my second finger knuckle to release the action for racking. Mossberg controls are positioned in the most ergonomic positions possible. Another great Mossberg advantage is that the lifter is out of the way when the slide is closed - you can pop another shell in the tube without any obstruction of any kind - no lifter in the way! Gotta love Mossberg's design! And they are stone reliable.

No doubt the 870 is a really superb shotgun! I would be proud to have one in my armory. But the Mossberg is clearly the superior design when it comes to placement of controls and topping off the magazine during use. And as for reliability, I'm sure that the 870 and the Mossberg are in a dead heat with each other. No, I wouldn't mind at all relying on an 870 for defense, but my highest regard goes to Mossberg... for the details. The US military got it right when they choose the 590 for their scatter gun purposes.

Lastly, my little Stoeger Coachgun still has a heck of a lot of appeal... "two-fer-sure", as some might say. Only thing I'm not so crazy about with it is that it's only TWO! Awesome little defensive shooty, however. Great for close quarters like in the RV. As for my 1100 Competition, I do love the gun, but still, the nod goes to my Mossberg 500A Persuader when the chips are down. I'm thinking about going to the pistol grip option that came with the Mossberg when I first bought it... makes for a really compact, but fully featured 12 gauge "Persuader".

I think when it comes to confidence in a very potent defense weapon... there is nothing that can touch a 12 gauge pump stoked with 00 Buck! (I agree with some others here, birdshot is for the birds... buckshot is for defense! Penetration is KING, and you NEED that in a defense scenario.)