If you have a gun for self-defense, which have you spent more $ on, guns or training?

If it's "guns", then why?

"Guns" means the guns you own for self-defense, not a hunting or trap gun.

"Training" means "being formally taught by an instructor". It does not cover money spent on ammo, money spent on competitions, or money spent on practice.
"Guns" are firearms and accessories only.

If I were a criminal, I would be much more scared of a person with $2000 worth of training and a $375 bone stock CZ-75 than a person with $200 of training and a $2000 Les Baer 1911, (edit: both having equal amounts of practice).

Training doesn't look pretty in the gun safe, but I think that the money spent on it is a better value.

(Note: I'm guilty of this too.)

"More on guns"; as my training cost me nothing, as a former LEO I'm often
times invited too shoot in the "instructors class"~! ;):D:cool:

Offhand I can't think of any money I've spent for training and I've been shooting about 50 years.

I've had a little formal training, like in the USMC, but it wasn't money out of my pocket.

My Glock 35 was around $600. The my training fee is around $100+, I know a guy that gets me discount.

Get a nice 12 gauge and buy the bird loads to train with. Seriously it does not take Annie Oakley to shoot a friggin 870 express with deadly accuracy.

I've had a ton of formal training, both in the military and as a civilian LEO. I've paid for some classes myself, but most come from qualification requirements. Now that you've opened the can of worms, what kind of training are you talking about? Felony arrest procedures, marksmanship, fire and maneuver as a: 1) fire team 2) squad 3) entry team, individual personal defense, force on force with SIMS or MILES, calls for fire, calls for CAS? :D

(Just had to throw those last two in.)

The point I'm trying to make is that anything beyond the basics is influenced by mindset and practice. Take that guy with the $2000 Les Baer and the $200 worth of training. If the $200 worth of training is tactically and fundamentally sound and he religiously practices those fundamentals every week, I'd take his chances over the guy with the $2000 worth of training that hasn't picked up a gun in three years. By excluding practice expenses, you skew the equation completely. Any good trainer will tell you the only way you're going to master what he or she has to teach is to take it home and practice, practice, practice. You ain't gonna get it all in a 5-day class.

Translation: Your formal training is worth exactly as much as the time you spend outside of class practicing what you learned in the class.

I've spent way more on weapons than on "Formal Training". Of course, I've had the nessesary training required for a carry permit. After seeing that that was so basic and not much better than a youth, firearms training class I signed up for another, more intense class. That turned out to be pretty lame as they couldn't accept the fact that I wore my pistol 'weak-side'. Well, for [I]most[I] people it's 'weak-side' but for me (with shoulder problems) it's my "only-way-to-get-the-damn-weapon-out-of-the-holster" side! They just couldn't handle that and said that I couldn't take the class if I refused to switch sides for the class. HUH? What good would that possibly do me to train that way and then have to switch back to the only way it could do me any good.
Now, I practice on my own - for free - and spend a lot more time at it.
So - if it's how much money that you spend is the only criteria.... then I fall short of that standard.

P.S. LE get a bunch of training and the stats that I hear about their shooting ability in actual life instances are pretty pathetic. I am NOT putting them down because I believe that unless you have ice in your veins, most people shoot in a near-panic state of mind while being shot at.
I just read an article by a tactical trainer who said that after teaching the two-handed pistol-shooting method for years, he found out (by watching video survailance tapes) that in actual heat-of-the-moment shooting, most LE personel shoot one handed. They use the other hand to lean on a roof, trunk or wall or are opening a door to go through or just for balance but the tapes show that most of the training went out the window in actual. He now teaches BOTH, one and two handed shooting.

My point here is this - all of the training in the world might not make that critical difference when it counts. I believe that it's what's inside of you and what you're fighting for that will make a bigger difference. Whether you do formal or informal training, just keep the familiarity with weapons going so you'll not fumble with the safety in a tense moment.

To : sacp81170a -
I couldn't have said it any better myself !!!
You were just finishing your reply while I was getting carried away with mine. lol

msg. : "Keep on practicing." and it doesn't need to be formal and/or expensive.

I have spent more on ammo and reloading equipment and components than most any other expense.

I have spent at least double on "formal" training classes than on firearms I would use as a defense. as I thouroughly enjoy most of the classes I have attended, and my defensive arms are simple and reliable no more expensive than they need to be(P220, 92fs, 870, AR-15), the firearms that I compete, or like to shoot the most cost more, but suffer a little in complexity, handling (adj target sights snag) and to a small degree reliability, or would have little use in a civilian defense situation other than SHTF (KC 1911 target, M1 garand, "built" AR, savage 10fp)

ideally there should be some time/expense for "preparations", a good alarm system, escape routes, "family fire drills" and the like. All the training in the world, and best defensive weapons are useless if you wake up at 3am with a half dozen armed intruders standing over you, or your home is ablaze

I've spent more on all of my guns than all of my training ;). However, my Makarov (primary carry) was somewhere around $160-180, and I've spent about $400 on training.

certified in six different proficiencies and a summer camp 'Director of Marksmanship' running the .22LR range. My primary 'perspective' from youth shooting, the HS Rifle Team, and the camp shooting was Rifle marksmanship.

Twenty years ago I started teaching myself basic handgun from there, with an emphasis on practical pistol skills.

I'm also a former HS English teacher well-founded in, shall we say, different 'principles' of learning for different types of skill acquisition. As a result, I've done a lot of self-training, and sought advice as needed from other proficient shooters.

Currently, I'm going through a 'familiarization' regimen to get used to and proficient with my new j-frames. I expect to take an 'advanced' CCL class in the near future, and I may do a PD-CQB type class as well.

The only real problem with self-teaching is that 'one doesn't know what one doesn't know.' IOW, if you have the basic skill knowledge, you may still need a second person to observe your shooting (or whatever) to see what isn't working right.

Jim H.

More on guns here. Just the Rohrbaugh put me over.

You know, I never spent anything on driving lessons and I haven't been charged with a wreck since I got my license in 1966. (I backed into a pole once, but that didn't get reported.) Maybe my dad's military and state police training has rubbed off on me.

John

Another side to this is that one gun doesn't do it all. I have full size guns for CCW when I have lots of cover clothing, compacts for summer time cover dress, and a sub-compact for deep concealment.

I rotate which ones I practice with, to make sure I'm decently proficient with them all.

As a non-military, non-leo, citizen I think there's only so many skills I need to be really good at (I'm not planning on being on any entry teams). Which means there's only so much formal training that I feel would justify the expense. I try to practice what I've learned as often as I can, I've taken some refresher courses, and gotten with some friends who have taken the same training to do our own "refreshers".

I believe as others have said, I think it's more important to practice what I've learn and focus on my mindset, accuracy and speed. I don't think continual formal training, especially if the "philosophy" of that training is constantly changing necessarily makes you more skilled.

That's not to say continual training has no value. But you need hands-on experience to fully grasp alot of that training, and to know what pieces of each course will work for you, which pieces won't, and to know how to merge all those separate pieces into practice in some defensive skillset.

So while I agree that having alot of guns (or one or more very expensive guns) has no direct correlation to how skilled you are, I don't see that having taken alot of formal training has any more of a correlation.

I'm a retired LEO and firearms instructor and in the Army Reserve (I went active duty about 40 years ago and have had some AD stints since) I have spent more on guns. All my training (including being an artilleryman) was free to me.

You know, I never spent anything on driving lessons and I haven't been charged with a wreck since I got my license in 1966. (I backed into a pole once, but that didn't get reported.) Maybe my dad's military and state police training has rubbed off on me.


Well said. There is undoubtedly benefit I could gain from formal training, but apart from the CHL class, I've not done any. OTOH, I shoot regularly, and I don't think that's unimportant either.

But I'd have to go do a week at some academy somewhere to pay more than I have for my Kimber and my Beretta shotgun put together. :o

Springmom

Thanks to all "Taxpayers" for giving me the best tactical, military and police training available. Shoot, Move, And Communicate....BLOOD, BLOOD makes the grass grow green....U.S. Army infantry 9years, 4years FED. lawenforcement and counting......

Thanks to all "Taxpayers" for giving me the best tactical, military and police training available. Shoot, Move, And Communicate....BLOOD, BLOOD makes the grass grow green....U.S. Army infantry 9years, 4years FED. lawenforcement and counting......


Haha. Keep the fire going for the ole Benning School For Boys training camp :D

I spend more on training.

It's rare that I meet someone that has taken more classes than the number of guns they own.

how would a criminal know if you have $2000 of training while staring down the barrel of your favorite handgun? My boy has $0 of training - well, other than my cost for 45acp rounds and range time - and he is very very accurate with my Taurus.

The government paid me to get trained, and I got train on their big guns. Of course, dealing with bad guys went something along the lines of "GUNNER, SABOT, TANK" or "GUNNER, COAX, TROOPS". :)

In the civilian world, I spent a weekend at Front Sight, but it was free with the certificate. Otherwise, it would have been about $800. It was pretty neat, and I learned a lot.

But the one course I paid for was about equal to the 3 CCW's I can have on my permit. ;)

I haven't spent a dime on formal training yet. Though, when I turn 21, I plan on getting my CCW. That'll be $100 or so right there. All the "training" I've had is from my dad, an ex-LEO. But I think it's hard to "train" for being shot at.

I got all the training I need from the Marines.

I've been "trained" on everything from the M-15 revolver through the LGM-30G ICBM. I've "trained" as a Jaeger and lehrer (mentor) of Jaegers. The litany goes on and on. I don't think that I'm all that strange. True practitioners of this art are perpetual students.

Others choose to purchase hardware. :scrutiny:

A cousin once witnessed my harvest of a whitetail. He had never seen, in thirty years' hunting, an animal simply drop. I told him of the Jaeger's blatschuss, eventually showing him how I had removed the arteries from the top of the heart. He asked how that had happened. I replied: "That was shot number 10,001 of 10,001." ;)

So it goes. Waidmannsheil !

By training I thought you meant shooter train thy self. Which means the cost of ammo. I spend twice as much on ammo in the first 6 months of owning a self defense gun, than the gun itself.

But what training classes do I spend money on???? None. The state paid for me to go to some though.

I spent it all on guns. I was fortunate to have a Dad that started Me on handguns in my early teens. Familiarty and common sense goes a long way. I still chuckel at the Air Force's handgun and marksmen requirements. Essex

Some of us have alot of guns...
If you asked ammo+training, then my expenditure would be around the same.

Your first professional training class will matter a lot more than your 17th new gun that will spend 99% of its life in your safe.

6 week long classes at fixed facilities. One 4 day class. At least 24 weekend classes, most of which were Fri-Sun. 8 NTIs, 3 Tactical Conferences. 1 CCW course.

About $2000 on various guns, $40 on training to get my CHP.

What did the human race do to survive before these firearms training courses that cost an arm and a leg? Given the supposed inadequacy of doing anything but spending $2000+ on a 5 day crash course it is amazing that we have made it as long as we have as a species.

'che. Spent 1/6th of the price of my Usp on training. Spent the other 5/6ths in ammo practising in the next six months.

"Training" means "being formally taught by an instructor". It does not cover money spent on ammo, money spent on competitions, or money spent on practice.
"Guns" are firearms and accessories only.

So I guess if this were to apply to say my daughter's softball pitching. The $150 I spent on the fast-pitch training camp is worth more then the 1-2 hours per day that she spends practicing on honing the skills she learned.

I don't know how you dismiss practice costs as not part of training. I don;t know of any instructor that upon the completion of the course states "You now know everything there is to know about this subject, you have no need to ever practice again, as you are now an expert, always and forever."

The good ones say "You now have the basic skills, you need to continously practice to maintain and improve those skills, if you do not practice, then those skills will diminish over time."

What did the human race do to survive before these firearms training courses that cost an arm and a leg? Given the supposed inadequacy of doing anything but spending $2000+ on a 5 day crash course it is amazing that we have made it as long as we have as a species.

How do you know what is taught at these "arms and a leg" worthless classes if you have never taken one?

I would have to take time off work and travel.

Not many opportunities for that.

So I have the guns but not the training.

Practice? Yes, but not enough.

Maybe I can find a good local trainer.

* Sigh *

I think I was born with a gun in my hand. I spent 20 years in the Navy workin' on weapons (all kinds)... 'n went to war twice. I've been a cop... 'n thought 'not much' of the formal training provided. I s'pose that happens when you already know more than the instructors.... having operated ranges myself. I've actually had to shoot people... so therein' lies the difference I s'pose between punchin' holes in paper targets 'n gettin' some lead downrange against somebody who's tryin' to kill YOU. I carry a pistol everywhere... everyday... openly inna holster onna gunbelt. 'Just like wearin' my cowboy hat... 'don't leave home w/o it. I've known PhD's who couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on te heel. No common sense. I'm not all that impressed by fancy hi-dollar guns or fancy certificates that say the owner knows what they're doing. I've seen enuff dumasses with guns who had both.... including cops, 'hunters' (LOL) 'n 'suits' who brag about their CCW like some macho right of passage.

Guns. Definately.

Always trying to find the "Holy Grail" of carry weapons...

It would help if I knew what it looked like...:)

Bought a few used guns along the way, spent some on training, then some more on training, bought different guns, sold some (hey! SELLING guns comes off the top of the spent-on-guns column ...right?) oh hell, now I've lost count. :evil:

Two ways to look at this.....the US government spent a lot of money training me to use firearms.

I've spent a lot of money (IMO) on firearms.

I am now shifting gears and spending money on training. Starting with Tactical Response in September, spending "an arm and a leg" for "4 day crash course" oh btw, 4 days equal $800.

I'll be sure to let you all know how i feel about the classes after i'm done.

more on the firearm. most of my training has come from the military. I have only paid for one class and that was my concealed class the state requries me to have.

I spend more on guns.

My training has been paid for by y'all.:D

I don't think that money spent on training, with no follow practice through afterwards, means much of anything.

And I've taken training that cost me nothing. Many of us have.


Tom Givens has seen more of his graduates involved in gunfights than any other private firearms instructor today. He's humble, and won't advertise that fact, but he has. I know of only 2 who didn't survive, and neither of them had their guns with them when it happened. The majority of his students only took a few day's worth of training. But he managed to pass onto his students what they need to know, in a way they would retain it. That says a lot in my book.


Alphazulu6 said: Get a nice 12 gauge and buy the bird loads to train with. Seriously it does not take Annie Oakley to shoot a friggin 870 express with deadly accuracy.

Alph, its not about just shooting. Until we've taken quality training, we're unconsciously incompetent in many areas. We simply don't know what we don't know.

Until we've taken quality training, we're unconsciously incompetent in many areas. We simply don't know what we don't know.Which is why I keep training. I have enough guns; I'll never have enough training.

Point a gun at a guy and the last thing on his mind is "hmmmm, I wonder how much training he has?" Spend ALL your money on the gun that is the most effective and easiest for you to use!

I would suggest that nothing beats practice with a gun to get proficient. As far as any training you might need goes, most all of it can be had for FREE.

Now, if you have the time and interest and want to be indulgent, competitive, and/or certified -then sure ,go for training. Why not?

Under your criteria, I picked guns, but I think it is wrong to separate training from practice. I read articles on shooting to help improve my technique. I try to spend at least ten minutes a day doing dry fire exercises. I spend 2 to 3 hours a week at the range. The only training I've had has been informal training from more experienced shooters. I practice holster draws at home. I practice rapid target acquisition, double taps and rapidly cycling through targets at different ranges when I shoot. Why does that not count? I'm building a strong proficiency.

I picked guns, but I think it is wrong to separate training from practice

I don't. Practice means practicing what you know how to do, right or wrong. Bullfrog has it right:

Alph, its not about just shooting. Until we've taken quality training, we're unconsciously incompetent in many areas. We simply don't know what we don't know.

Burning ammo at the range only practices skills you already know, and does not correct your bad habits. Practicing a bad habit over and over again does not make you better, you just get better at hiding it.

I hold to my separation of formal training from practice ammo costs.

I do have a question: How much pistol training does the military do? I was under the impression it was pretty cursory.

I am now shifting gears and spending money on training. Starting with Tactical Response in September, spending "an arm and a leg" for "4 day crash course" oh btw, 4 days equal $800.

I'll be sure to let you all know how i feel about the classes after i'm done.

You should come back here and post a review after each class to give some of the people in this thread an idea of why training might be more important than buying 5 more guns.

I spend more on guns, but then I get my training for free on the job. Of course I spend a good amount of my own time and money on range time which goes toward training; ranges here in lower NY are expensive, but still more on guns over the years.

how would a criminal know if you have $2000 of training while staring down the barrel of your favorite handgun? My boy has $0 of training - well, other than my cost for 45acp rounds and range time - and he is very very accurate with my Taurus.

Accuracy with a weapon does not mean that person knows how, or even when, to fight.

A concealed carry class doesn't even come close to the necessary training to become proficient. It is merely the fulfillment of a contract with the State--it informs the applicant of the law and establishes a baseline of performance (an exceptionally low standard).