Zip Guns (Homemade firearms of the early to middle 20th Century)

Has anyone seen or collected or even made these Strange (Almost like innercity folk art) hand made crude single shot small caliber Firearms Popularized in Detective Magazines and Movies Prior to World War Two and born outta the Anti-Firearm Importation laws of the middle to late 30's ?

The only one I remember seeing was back in the late 50s or early 60s and was some kind of configuration utilizing a galvanized steel pipe for a (smoothbore) barrel. It fired a 22 rimfire (single shot, obviously) with, IIRC, a rubber band actuated firing pin.

Seriously, by the time you got that thing into battery, I'd have beat you to death with it.

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I have seen and handled, if not fired the pen gun currently made by some manufacturer that I cannot remember. There was the Stinger, of OSS fame, but I haven't seen one. The homemade ones are illegal unless you use a piece of barrel or can make rifling in the one you make. Any smoothbore cartridge firing weapon with a barrel under 18" is either a short barreled shotgun or an AOW, depending on whether or not it has a stock, and must be registered with ATF.

There are still plenty of zip guns being made; the Philadelphia police dept. has an amazing collection of guns at their forensics lab, of which a pretty big chunk is zip guns; some of them are several decades old (even if they came into police hands far later than that), but some are fairly recent.

(And I'm sure a lot of people -- or at least a few! -- have followed the directions of thehomegunsmith.com to create a working autoloader, which perhaps takes us away from traditional "zip gun" territory, but it's still a homemade smoothbore.)

timothy

Can someone else confirm that building a homemade gun (w/ rifled barrel) is not illegal or requires registration? Until I read Gunfixr's post I was about to abandon my homemade gun project because of imagined legal repercussions .

Building anything you are otherwise legal to own is perfectly legal. You must do ALL work on the receiver YOURSELF, and not for profit, and not for someone else.

NFA items must be Form 1'd. Obviously, MGs are out.

Any and all state regulations apply.



For example:

If I wanted to build a single shot pistol with a rifled barrel, that is 100% OK here in Ohio. Again, I would have to do all work on the receiver. If I wanted to build a SMOOTHBORE pistol, that is also 100% OK here in Ohio. I just have to fill out a Form 1 and pay for a stamp first.

I don't know if it could be considered a zip-gun, it was home-made; essentially a pipe affixed to a foundation with a crude (read: manual) striking mechanism. Horribly inaccurate, felt dangerous, no thrill whatsoever.

We saw a very nice collection of them at the Beale street Police station in Memphis. They have a small museum there that was absolutely worth visiting, you should check it out if you're ever there. Not to mention that BB Kings blues club is just a little further down the street and the BBQ is awesome.

Were crude and very, very dangerous.
The barrels were car antennas, no spring.
Rubber bands attached to a bolt lock.
So accurate you aimed it at the ground in front of you to hit the tree behind you.
:uhoh::eek:
In those days no kid went to jail for them, if you were caught with them the police beat you up and told your parents who also beat you up.

My only familiarity with this topic comes from an old Charles Bronson movie (one of the Death Wish series). Someone had a ghetto shotgun made from two pieces of pipe that telescoped together, and IIRC, it was fired by slamming the two pipes together lengthwise.


Seriously, by the time you got that thing into battery, I'd have beat you to death with it.

My guess about such things is that you carried it assembled and loaded, fired it when the time came, and simply dropped it and ran (or pulled out your switchblade).

if you were caught with them the police beat you up and told your parents who also beat you up.


Those were the days. Whatever happened to parental responsibility, eh?

As CypherNinja said, building your own gun is legal. Atf would like you to put a serial number on it, but there is no law stating you must in their regs. Whatever you build must follow gun manufacturer rules, ie. rifles have at least 16" barrels, shotguns 18" barrels, etc. To build your own suppressor or SBR or something other that is an NFA weapon, you must first send in the forms to get permission, and build after getting that permission. Any type of fullauto is out, due to the machinegun ban of '84 not allowing the manufacture of any new transferrable autos. You can make more than one, but they cannot be sold. Once you sell them, you are in for profit and manufacturing without a license.

I see this thread getting shut down fairly quickly...

gunsmith

Were crude and very, very dangerous.
The barrels were car antennas, no spring.
Rubber bands attached to a bolt lock.
So accurate you aimed it at the ground in front of you to hit the tree behind you.

In those days no kid went to jail for them, if you were caught with them the police beat you up and told your parents who also beat you up.

Exactly.
In the 50's every big city kid could build a Zip Gun.
I got fancy and made my own steel barrels.:)

I designed a machine gun but never had the tools or money to build it.

Building anything you are otherwise legal to own is perfectly legal. You must do ALL work on the receiver YOURSELF, and not for profit, and not for someone else.

NFA items must be Form 1'd. Obviously, MGs are out.

Any and all state regulations apply.

For example:

If I wanted to build a single shot pistol with a rifled barrel, that is 100% OK here in Ohio. Again, I would have to do all work on the receiver. If I wanted to build a SMOOTHBORE pistol, that is also 100% OK here in Ohio. I just have to fill out a Form 1 and pay for a stamp first.

Just to clarify what is meant by "all the work on the receiver." You can buy an 80% 1911 frame (all drilling and milling done except for the slide rails, and no s/n or other roll marks applied) and this does not legally constitite a firearm... meaning no paperwork or records... you're just buying a chunk of steel (like a pipe wrench). Finish it yourself and you've got a 100% legal, "off the books" 1911.

As stated above, though, you can never, NEVER sell the gun or transfer it to anyone else - you can't even legally leave it to your kids. Guess you gotta be buried with it ;)

I'll echo Gunsmiths post, execpt that after the cop told my old man, I got smacked AGAIN.
I never made another zip gun (not that I did before, ya hear that BATF?).:evil:

Charlie in Venice, Florida. Whatever happened to the old winter campus for the Kentucky Military Institute? IIRC, the buildings were kind of stately. Maybe even historical.

The Washington County Sheriff's Department had a display of
weapons siezed in crime; I believe it included some zip-guns
but what sticks in my memory are the incredibly beat-up sawnoff
rifle and shotguns.

That said, there were 1950s rumors that guys took .22 blank guns,
welded the vented barrels solid, then drilled them out, to shoot .22 shorts.

In the mid 50s I lived both on Fort Bragg and in a nearby town (when Dad was overseas). Zip guns were fairly common. Most were made much like the ever popular rubber band shooters and most were less accurate and probably less effective unless you actually pushed the barrel into the body of the "victim".

I believe the book on the life of Carbine Williams (remember him?) told how he made his first guns - zip guns - from a bamboo stalk wrapped with varnished thread. All of the zip guns I saw fired a .22 rimfire and, with some, anything other than a .22 short would often launch the case back into the shooter.

I saw one that was made from a modified grenade detonator. It worked quite well but with the very short barrel had zero accuracy.

Interesting thread. Had not thought about those days in a long, long time.

John
Charlotte, NC

I saw one about 20 years ago that a friend found in a house he was tearing down. It was .45ACP and looked like a large metal drafting pencil. I remember it was very well made, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to fire it.

In 1958 the high tech build was a Hubley cap pistol, rubber bands and a swiped auto antenna. I guess they worked.......Essex

"In the 50's every big city kid could build a Zip Gun."

And some of the ones who did are still missing a couple of fingers. Are car arials still hollow? I can't spell antennae.

John

Seen a few years ago. I got to check one out up close when someone approached me to sell one. It unscrewed towards the front where the round was placed, then screwed shut had a small hook at the back which pulled a firing pin back and had a button to release the pin firing it.

Others were pipes, often one the diameter of the bullet, sanded or polished at one end inside so the edge of the round could go a few inches in, and stop. This essentialy created a chamber, with the pipe forward of that the barrel. Then another pipe that fit inside or over the other pipe was used with a small nail attached (inside the pipe so they were fully enclosing eachother when the nail met the primer) so that when the 2 where slammed together it fired the round. They would have other pipes comming off both pieces at right angles as rear and forward grips. So one simply brought the two handles together fast to fire the centerfire cartridge. These were often made by young gang members that had yet to aquire an actual firearm.

Another adaption was what was basicly homemade bang sticks as used by divers. It would be a couple cyclinders pieced together one holding a round, the other with a nail centered and a spring between the two, and an attachment that kept them screwed together as one item. This thing was put on a short stick/pipe. When it was smacked onto or against something it fired the cartridge inside into whatever it was hit against, these often used a 12 gauge shell.

Some people even made them out of tightly rolled up magazines that would fire once and the front end turn into confetti at the same time.

Often I felt most lacked craftsmanship and being more legaly versed I would keep my distance from them. However they are a great example of how gun control is impractical. These were often made by people that lacked much mechanical ingenuity. By people that didn't check the laws or care as they pretty much equated guns with illegal for themselves anyways, so how illegal made little difference.

Smokeless (sulfuric acid/battery acid turned into nitric acid, and used to nitrate some cellulose) and black powder are pretty simple to make from scratch even without manufactered ammunition. Metals cylinders are widespread. How hard is it to combine the two? When firearms are outlawed, only outlaws have them (and those professional enough.)

Of course building or making any such thing is highly illegal without filing proper forms. Since such things are total crap and not worth much, filing expensive forms to play with such things would be silly. So you are best off just avoiding them and having nothing to do with them. That is what I do. To illegaly play with such things you would be risking your freedom and your future right to own much more functional real firearms.

I see this thread getting shut down fairly quickly...

So long as no one advocates doing anything illegal, the thread will stay open.

As far as the 80% receivers go. The ATF IS shutting down and prosecuting people selling 80% frames and receivers. I was about to build a p220 from a 80% frame seller in Canada but decided to build from scratch seeing as how if the ATF decided that adding rails isn't enough work to constitute it being a non-firearm then I'd be breaking several laws. Importing, non-FFL, of list frame (California) etc. IF you do want to build a gun from scratch, play it safe and build the frame from 0% not 80%. DIYguns and a few others have letters that claim approval from the ATF, but according to an ATF indictment I red the just manufactured the letters and never got approval.

Must be an urban phenomenon. Most of the kids when I was growing up had real firearms. Degree of adult supervision varied. I got my first shotgun when I was eight but the firearms and ammunition in the house were accessible before then. Had no desire to fool with them unsupervised. Raised hunting, knew from personal observation that I didn't want a playmate shot or myself.

You don't need approval, unless you want to build something under NFA rules. It's right on their website, in the FAQ section, you can build your own gun from scratch, so long as it follows the laws of guns, bbl length, rifling, imports, etc.

So does that mean you could make a bang stick with an 18" barrel and be 100% legal as long as you don't sell? Not that this would be a smart move, but I was just wondering about the legallity.

Must be an urban phenomenon. Most of the kids when I was growing up had real firearms. Degree of adult supervision varied. I got my first shotgun when I was eight but the firearms and ammunition in the house were accessible before then. Had no desire to fool with them unsupervised. Raised hunting, knew from personal observation that I didn't want a playmate shot or myself.

same here. i never really had the desire to risk blowing my hand off with a pipegun.

You can build more than one gun and you can eventually sell them if you so choose but I would recommend doing so through a dealer and I wouldn't recommend building fifty AR15 or AKM type rifles from kits and selling them through any dealer two weeks after completing them.
Your name will become part of the BATFE watch list if you do.

You need to watch out for state statutes, such as the one in Texas:

Texas Penal Code § 46.01. DEFINITIONS.
In this chapter:
...
(16) "Zip gun" means a device or combination of devices that was not originally a firearm and is adapted to expel a projectile through a smooth-bore or rifled-bore barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance.
...
Texas Penal Code § 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
...
(9) a zip gun.
...
(e) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree unless it is committed under Subsection (a)(5) or (a)(6), in which event, it is a Class A misdemeanor.
...

I never had one but as a boy in the Bronx in the '40's and '50's I saw quite a few that were made from car antennae as Gunsmith described.

Building anything you are otherwise legal to own is perfectly legal. You must do ALL work on the receiver YOURSELF


Please explain an 80% finished receiver then...

Zip guns were frequently made from car antennae (or aerials),
gas pipes or plumbing pipes.

Which brings to mind the Dixie Gun Works method of testing
barrels for muzzleloading rifles: they would take about a 10
inch section of barrel and thread both ends and drill a hole
in the middle. Dixie would then screw a plug in one end, insert
a length of cannon fuse in the vent hole, fill the barrel with black
powder, and then screw a plug in the other end. They would
place the barrel section in a pit, light the fuse and head for
cover. If the barrel was any good, ALL the gas from the gun
powder would vent out through the fuse hole.

If you did that with car antennae, gas pipe or plumbing pipe,
it would blow up as a pipe bomb.

I think that speaks volumes about the suitability of car
antennae, gas pipe or plumbing pipe as gun barrel material.

The barrels were car antennasIf you did that with car antennae, gas pipe or plumbing pipe,
it would blow up as a pipe bomb. I think that speaks volumes about the suitability of car antennae, gas pipe or plumbing pipe as gun barrel materialI’ve heard the car antenna story too. I’ve always assumed they were for cosmetic purposes; the maker figured all guns had to have a barrel, so he put one on his zip gun. I assumed the inside diameter of the antenna was always larger then the bullet, so there was no pressure build up except in the cartridge case itself, and thus no pipe bomb effect. The zip gun functions the same as if it had no barrel at all. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Also I’ve heard some zip guns were fired by squeezing the rim with wire cutters (on rim fired rounds of course.) Not sure how the cartridge would be held in battery this way, but apparently it fired more reliably than the rubber band driven firing pin types. Again, please inform if this is incorrect.

I saw (and handled) a zip gun when I was in the 6th grade. That would have been about 1959 or so. It was made out of a pot metal cap pistol (handle and "receiver") and had a small diameter pipe taped on the top. The hammer had been filed to a point and had a number of rubber bands wrapped around it, so you could thumb it back and let go. It chambered .22 cal short ammo - sort of. I didn't see it fire and didn't want to be anywhere around it when it went off. I already owned a real .22 rifle myself, so I wasn't too impressed.

This was part of a collection of "back in the day thug paraphernalia" that one of my classmates' older brother owned. The rest of the collection contained brass knuckles, a couple of switch blades, shanks and some other "self-defense" stuff. The older brother was a scary guy who eventually ended up in the slammer.

I decided, thankfully, to cut that potential friendship off quickly. No doubt one of my better decisions.

Even if the zip gun barrel is larger than the bullet, it
prevents complete blow-by of gas from the cartridge,
and will give somewhat more velocity than launching
bullet directly from the cartridge case.

The tube served as the firing chamber; a tube that
correctly fit a .22 case would be the same diameter as a
a .22 bullet. A tube that fit a .25 ACP case would be
considerable larger than the bullet, since the .25 bullet
fit inside the .25 case.

The tube, pipe or section of antenna acted as a barrel in
an improvised firearm; the point I am making is that
these improvised barrels were not as strong as true
barrel material and were not safe, whether they were legal
or not, they were a bad idea. Now, in WWII, my father met
Filipinos who fought the Japanese occupation of the
Phillipines; many of the Filipinos were armed with shotguns
made from pipe. It can be done if one has to, but if
you don't have to, don't. The risk of catastrophic failure
with improvised gun barrels is too great.

I heard all the scuttlebutt on zip guns in the 1950s but
firing with wire cutters is new to me. The rubber band
driven firing pin types always had a block of wood holding
the nail as a hammer or striker; the block of wood served
as a breech block to retain the cartridge case in the
barrel til the admittedly low gas pressure had passed.

Zip guns are often illegal under city or state codes because
a person with a legitimate interest in guns for sport or
self-defense could buy a gun legally, while people who
made or used zip guns were usually those barred from
buying a gun legally. Zip guns were usually associated
with juvenile delinquents, especially street gangs.