9mm and Hog Hunting


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mbt2001
July 17, 2007, 09:41 AM
I came across the below article on Gunblast... I included the link so that you could check out the pictures. It seems pretty clear that he used a 9mm effectively on the hog. Makes an interesting read.

http://gunblast.com/ExtremeShock.htm

Boar Hunting with Extreme Shock High Performance Ammunition

by Jeff Quinn

photography by Jeff Quinn & Boge Quinn

May 7th, 2007


These days, shooters have it better than ever when it comes to ammo selection for their favorite weapons. I remember a time when, to get really high performance ammo, you had to roll your own. Today, there are several ammunition makers who specialize in making ammo that rides the cutting edge of performance. One such company with which I have recently became familiar is Extreme Shock Munitions of Clintwood, Virginia. I was contacted by the PR folks for Extreme Shock, and was sent some ammo to try out. Subsequently, I was invited to go on a wild boar hunt in East Tennessee with Jeff Mullins, the head honcho at Extreme Shock. More on the hog hunt later.

Extreme Shock makes some very interesting and unusual cartridges, for rifle, pistol, and shotgun. Some are tailored for hunting, while others are very specialized anti-personnel rounds, which are in use world-wide by military types and civilian contractors doing anti-terrorist operations. The criteria for the Extreme Shock ammo is to offer very specific penetration for the job at hand, along with extreme soft tissue disruption. Most of the Extreme Shock ammo is made from a base of powdered tungsten metal, which is very dense, and very tough. This tungsten core is swaged into a conventional bullet jacket. The whole thing is lead free, offers a lowered chance of a ricochet, and seldom exits a target. Extreme Shock makes several different mission-specific rounds. Some offer more penetration, some less. Some are built to offer high performance in a subsonic rifle round, and others are built for a very low chance of hard target penetration, for use in airplanes and such.

Our boar hunt was to take place at Caryonah Hunting Lodge near Crossville, Tennessee. Caryonah has hogs with a lot of European wild boar blood, and some are mixed with Razorback and other bloodlines. A couple of weeks before the hunt, Jeff Mullins sent to me some 9mm ammo to bring on the hunt. See, I was thinking of bringing my Freedom Arms .500 Wyoming Express, .480 Puma levergun, or at least my trusted old .45 Ruger Blackhawk, but he wanted me to use a 9mm pistol! Sure, hogs have been killed with lesser cartridges, but usually under slaughter house conditions, and not in the wooded steep hills. However, in the interest of science, to better inform our readers, and being one to never let good judgment get in the way, I agreed. The pistol would be my Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm, which I have come to trust. It holds eighteen cartridges, and I told Jeff that in the event of a big boar getting really mad at me for shooting him with a 9mm, I would save the last round for myself, and the one before that for him. From the Smithís barrel, the 9mm EPR round clocked 1279 feet-per-second velocity.

I met up with Jeff at the Cracker Barrel restaurant just outside of Crossville for some lip-smacking biscuits and gravy before heading out a few miles to Caryonah for the hunt. My Cracker Barrel gravy addiction is one of my character flaws. I have been known to eat it with a spoon. A dash of habanero sauce really brings that stuff to life! Arriving at the lodge, we loaded into a well-used Chevy (it is rude to refer to a manís truck as "beat up") and headed back into the woods. Like much of Tennessee, the area around Crossville is steep and rocky. I believe that if Tennessee was mashed out flat that it just might be the biggest state in the union. After our guide dropped us off somewhere in the deep woods, it didnít take long for us to realize that a lighter breakfast would have been better idea. From the tracks and other sign, Caryonah has plenty of hogs, but the brush is pretty thick in places, and finding a track that still has a hog standing in it is a bit harder to do. Within the first hour of hunting, we spotted a few hogs, but they were on the move, and getting close took some work. Several times I would try to work around a ridge to get in front of some good hogs, but they would spot me before I could get through the brush for a decent shot.

Running through the woods, jumping logs and streams, I could get within range of a shot, but the hogs offered nothing but a rear raking shot. I wanted to shoot through the shoulder on a big boar, as I was there to test the penetration and power of Extreme Shockís 9mm EPR round. I didnít want to shoot one between the eyes, and I didnít want to slip one in at an angle from behind the shoulder. Both would have certainly been lethal, but I wanted to see if that 9mm could really break down a boarís shoulder after traveling through that thick coarse hair, tough hide, and shoulder muscle. Jeff Mullins assured me that it would, but I wanted to prove it to myself before I would believe it. It proved to be an interesting morning. I ran a lot more than I thought that I could pursuing hogs, and fell flat on my face once when my legs just gave out. Thankfully, nobody was there to witness that sight. Spotting several hogs at the edge of a small pond (that is a "tank" to you Texas types), I eased down through the brush to get into position for a possible shot. They spotted me and headed off up a ridge. While wondering what I could do to work my way above them, from my left comes a lone Russian cross boar heading towards a small opening in the brush. Waiting for him to present a shot, he finally offered me a piece of shoulder through an opening. He was only about thirty yards away, but I was above him, and shot lower than I had intended. He didnít fall, but was definitely hit. He started off up the ridge, and I slowly followed, hoping that he would lay down. I thought that the shot was good, and wanted to do the job with one shot if I could. However, I decided to give him another. That second shot hit a small sapling that jumped between me and the boar. Saplings tend to do that in Tennessee. The next shot hit the shoulder, and the hog went down hard. During the autopsy, it was apparent that the first shot had entered forward of the shoulder and traversed about thirteen inches of meat, shredding the jugular in the process. Had I left him alone, he would have soon expired from that first shot, but you never know. We found a small piece of bullet jacket poking through the hair. The rest of the bullet disintegrated in the boar. The shot to the shoulder broke the shoulder bone. Boning out the boar at home, the shoulder bone looked as if it had been hit with a bullet from a high-powered rifle, yet the shoulder was not ruined as it would have been with a high velocity rifle round. I was impressed. I could poke my finger through the shoulder blade. The bone was not merely cracked, but the bone in the bulletís path had simply disappeared.

The boar proved to be a tasty one, as have the other wild boars that I have killed. Unlike domestic hogs, these Russian-blood hogs have huge thick meaty ribs. There is less fat than on a farm-raised hog, but there was plenty present to make some very good bratwurst. The guide estimated the boar to go a bit over 300 pounds, and after packaging up the ribs and loins, I had a lot of boned-out meat to grind.

This was my first experience with Extreme Shock ammo, but I plan to do a lot of testing in the future, of both their pistol and rifle cartridges. They also have a very unique shotgun slug cartridge that promises low recoil and excellent performance, called their CTJ round, which stands for "Come to Jesus".

Extreme Shock ammunition is not cheap, but for the performance offered, is a good value. I never scrimp on ammo for my carry guns, and try to use the very best available. If ever in a situation where you might need your defensive weapon, you will most certainly need it quickly, and any handgun is a compromise. It should be loaded with the best ammunition that you can find. Your life depends upon it.

Check out the full line of Extreme Shock ammo at: www.extremeshockusa.com.

While this was my first hunt at Caryonah Lodge, it wonít be my last. They have a first class operation, and offer a real hunt and great service. Check them out at www.caryonah.com.

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MCgunner
July 17, 2007, 02:04 PM
There are better calibers for hogs that don't require magic ammo. Frankly, I don't care WHAT ammo a 9 is fed, fine self defense round, but I'll take a .357 Magnum or larger for hunting anything bigger'n rabbits.

HippieCrusher
July 17, 2007, 02:36 PM
I agree. 9mm v. hog would worry me. We have a right good bit of them breeding in and around our place. I always carry my .357 to the bow stand - just in case and for good reason. Sometimes there isn't a big enough tree nearby to scramble up. I want to hit them as hard as possible.

MCgunner
July 17, 2007, 04:48 PM
My place is filled with 'em. They're not going to attack you. I've walked by heavy rose hedge and seen 'em hold up in there, shot a few that way. You can be feet from a big boar and never know it for all the thick cover down here. I tote my .45 Colt or a .357 when I hike just for in case I get an opportunity for some bacon. I hunt them with rifle or Contender, usually.

campbell
July 17, 2007, 05:12 PM
Extreme Shock has yet to demonstrate any ability beyond other bullets that are a fraction of the price.

9mm on hogs? Yet another example of "can" vs. "should". I'll stick with heavy .45 Colt.

Harley Quinn
July 29, 2007, 01:08 PM
The penetration of the 9mm is important over some of the others I have noticed. The 357 Sig is a penetrating fool.

I remember this conversation a few years ago. So many stories so little time.

;)

Kimber1911_06238
July 29, 2007, 01:12 PM
I've heard stories about an elephant killed with one shot from a .22 also. I'd stick to .357 or larger for hogs, regarless of what is possible to do with smaller calibers.

Harley Quinn
July 29, 2007, 01:37 PM
The 9mm Largo is a good one I'd think, if anyone has an old Astra that is;)

The 357 Sig and the 357 Mag are not that far apart imho. The extra weight of the bullet might help a little. I like the 9mm and its various others.

.355 is one and .357 is the other. The weight around 140 grn. is a pretty good one, I like that Lellier and Bellot cz round that is out.
I was told when I got them at the store they were around 1400+ not to shabby. 6" wolf barrel in a Glock, nice, shoots well.

The 10 round limit is to bad, but I do have a hi cap in a 40 cal if needed on the hunt :D

MCgunner
July 29, 2007, 01:44 PM
The 357 Sig and the 357 Mag are not that far apart imho. The extra weight of the bullet might help a little. I like the 9mm and its various others.

There's a huge difference in .357 mag and Sig in the bullet weight issue and the ability of the Magnum to push a 180 grain bullet to nearly 800 ft lbs from a 6.5" Blackhawk in my case. I get 785 ft lbs from it and the longer, heavier bullet will penetrate. I wouldn't hunt hogs with a 140 or less, 158 hard cast SWC minimum. And, I really prefer shooting my 180 grain load.

No Sig can match those ballistics. If you wanna match that and a tad more, you can get yourself a 10mm for an autoloader, but the Sig ain't it. The Sig round runs in the sub 600 ft lbs range, more like lightly over 500, and actually shoots a 9mm bullet which limits it to 147 grains max. It has neither the energy, nor more importantly the penetration of the .357 Magnum.

Harley Quinn
July 29, 2007, 02:09 PM
I am not sure about all of what you wrote regarding your thoughts.
Speed, weight etc are going to be the major factor.

Here is a link:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/357magnum.htm

So if I am shooting a 140 grain at 1400+ it is developing the same as the 357 doing similar.
As far a penetration goes I am not sure you can convince me a 180 lumbering is going to have the penetration as the 140 zipping along.

Same old same old.

But it is nice to read some of the various thoughts, The length of barrel and other factors are really important to this also.

I guess a good 357 with a 10'' barrel would be good one for this topic. But since I carry the 357 Sig as a CCW, I am still happy with it.

I would have the Sig as a back up and be carring a 35 cal lvr for the main action any way. It is a good one for shooting the little critter with a 180 grainer.;)

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/35remington.htm

:uhoh:

MCgunner
July 29, 2007, 04:11 PM
So if I am shooting a 140 grain at 1400+ it is developing the same as the 357 doing similar.
As far a penetration goes I am not sure you can convince me a 180 lumbering is going to have the penetration as the 140 zipping along.

Lumbering? I'm tellin' ya, the 180 don't lumber. It's fast as your 140 at 1400!

Here's actual chronograph results, pretty close to Buffalo Bore's 180 grain claims:

180 JHPXTP 13.8 grains AA#9...6.5" blackhawk....1401 fps/785 ft lbs

2.3" SP101.........1306 fps/682 ft lbs

That's lumbering along? Plus, the sectional density of a 180 grain bullet will assure better penetration, let along the higher energy and momentum. I've skinned big hogs with big gristle plates. I want more gun than a Sig. Actually, I really want more gun on a BIG hog than the .357, tell ya the truth. The .45 Colt loaded for my other Blackhawk is more like it. But, I hunt mostly with a .30-30 Contender. I cheat. :D

The Sig round would be okay for the little 100-200 lbs hogs that don't have the heavy gristle plate, but the big hogs demand big power and penetration. There is just no way, though, that the .357 Sig is even in the same ball park ballistically with the .357 Magnum with appropriate hunting weight bullets. Now, for 125 grain self defense factory loads in 3-4" revolvers, it's a lot closer.

The Sig round can't do any more than it's parent .40 S&W does, frankly. Both are in the same power ballpark and the .40 shoots bigger bullets. The Sig was a marketing ploy, no more, no less.

MCgunner
July 29, 2007, 04:20 PM
From Buffalo Bore's site....

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357sig

A 125 grain JHP at 1430 fps for 567 ft lbs typical

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

180 gr. LFN-GC (1400 fps ME 783 ft. lbs.)

Harley Quinn
July 29, 2007, 07:22 PM
MCgunner,

That is a nice read thanks.

I know they say shoot them in any steel gun. :uhoh: But I am wondering what kind of pressures they are at with those heavy bullets:scrutiny:

I have a SuperBlackHawk in 44 mag that might do the trick;)

What is their technique? Most of what I have read that kind of speed out of a 180 or 200 is not there? They have come a long way in the last year or so.:confused:


:)

MCgunner
July 29, 2007, 07:34 PM
ROF! If you've got a .44 Superblackhawk, why you wanna mess with a .357 anything, much less a Sig, on hogs? LOL!!!!

Buffalo Bore just has the right powder matched to that bullet. I've found the heavier bullets are much less dependent on barrel length than the really light weights, too. 125s require a fast powder in a short barrel, or at least faster than the norm because the bullet accelerates so fast it is out the barrel before the pressure peak of a normal slow powder for the caliber. If you load it with a faster powder, you're going to peak quicker, but it's still a compromise. That's why I like 140s for self defense in my SP101 in preference to the 125 grainers.

AA#9 is an excellent powder, especially for heavy bullets, in .357 magnum. I developed the load in my Blackhawk. I don't have an Ohler, no strain gauge, no way to measure pressure. Got the load out of a magazine article when the AA powders came on the scene, was over a decade ago. Buffalo Bore claims their loads are safe in any gun chambered for .357 magnum including J frames. They do pressure test, so I wouldn't doubt their claims.

What blows my mind is what they get out of that 180 in a rifle barrel! WOW, I can't approach that with my 180 handload in my 20" Rossi carbine. They're pushin' .30-30 Winchester velocities. I gotta get some of that stuff and test it in my rifle. I've been curious about that since I read about the Buffalo Bore stuff first time, but the price scares me, LOL!

Oh, one other thing about the sig vs magnum thing, I'll take a revolver's accuracy, most times, over the usual semi auto's accuracy. Now, I've got a P90 that will shoot with most revolvers, but on the average, a revolver is a more accurate gun for hunting, extended range shooting.

Harley Quinn
July 29, 2007, 07:47 PM
As I mentioned in a post prior, Id be carring a 35 Lvr, using the 357 Sig as a backup. I think it is cool to go out with the handguns but it is a shame not to be able to make sure with a good rifle.

I bought an SKS to take with me on a hunt (has a cool bayonet) if they get past that I'd use the bayonet or the 9mm;) The stalking is cool.

Are we talking stalk or perch (stand) most the TX's hunters are drivers and never leave the road:D

HQ

MCgunner
July 29, 2007, 09:03 PM
East Texas, stand hunting is about all that's effective. Out west in the desert, it's mostly spot and stalk. Since I'm usually on a stand, I don't carry a handgun with me much, but out west I do and it's usually a medium frame .357. I like the versatility. I've taken rabbits for camp meat about every time I've gone out there using .38 ammo. When I need it, i have .357 I can load up with. Took a Javelina one year with the .357. I really like spot and stalk hunting, but it's near impossible in the woods and brush. Best to set up a stand on a "sendero" (long clearing) or overlooking a feeder or both. Down here, it's pretty brushy and there aren't any tall pine trees to use for a tree stand, so the most popular affordable way is a tripod stand, but some guys seem to have a competition for who's got the nicest "palace" on stilts. LOL My best stand is a 120 dollar tripod from Academy.

Somebody posted this "texas Deer Stand" a while back, LOL!
http://imageigloo.com/images/4499Txdeerstand.jpg

Here's my SKS night hog gun for stand use. But, I have only been out with it once, not much of a night person.
http://imageigloo.com/images/837PICT0092.JPG

Harley Quinn
July 29, 2007, 10:54 PM
Pretty neat picture's, I like your sense of humor.

Geno
July 29, 2007, 11:43 PM
I knew I've been doing it alllllllll wrong. Now, this format of hunting...I could get my wife into it!

LAK
August 1, 2007, 08:21 AM
Just an observation regarding the .357 and the .357 SIG; velocity in this case is probably not nearly as important as bullet weight and bullet construction.

The .357 Magnum can be loaded with (and there are many "small factory" loads with) heavily constructed 158 grain+ softpoints - and 180 grain+ hardcast lead bullets of various alloys. The latter on a larger proportional scale in the form of various .44 and up caliber revolver loads have been used very effectively on such critters as water buffalo in africa and australia. A heavy for caliber hard lead bullet need not be going very fast to achieve reliable and deep penetration.

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