M1 grouping


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mindwip
July 17, 2007, 04:16 PM
Hay all.

I have an M1 Garand, and was wondering what an ok grouping is at 100yards both standing and, using a backpack as a rest to shoot from, with little wind. Only have shot my M1 4 times and only just got the front site centered. Or at least i think its good now.


Thanks.

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Langenator
July 17, 2007, 04:28 PM
Not sure what the specs were for the M1, but for current production M16A2/A4s with service ammo it's 3MOA at 100 yards. So a 3" group at 100 yards, assuming the shooter is doing their part.

10X
July 17, 2007, 04:33 PM
Lots and lots of variables. Let me assume some away and try to give you an answer or two of what the rifle is capable of using an informal rest:

With a good GI barrel, tight stock fit and USGI ammo the rifle likes, you should see around 4"-6" 10 round groups.

With glass bedding it should be under 3"

Match reloads should take that under 2"

With match sights 1"-2"

30Cal
July 17, 2007, 05:31 PM
With a decent stock fit, barrel, etc (a service grade rifle), you'll probably see about 3" at 100yds off a rest.

Offhand, a 9" group at 100yds is pretty good.

mindwip
July 17, 2007, 06:54 PM
Thanks for the answers. I mainly shoot my rack grade. Have yet to shoot my service grade.


Guess i have some more practice ahead of me as my first and only time shooting at 100yards i was doing about 1-1.5 foot groups, with a sleeping pad as a rest.
I have trouble putting the sights in the same place each time, i am not sure were the front post should be in the rear peep. I have an idea, seen one picture of it but have not got that down yet.

This is a stock cmp rack grade garand with the surplus ammo form cmp. tight stock fit Mine is quite loose, it more then falls off when i release the trigger lock.

DMK
July 17, 2007, 07:11 PM
i was doing about 1-1.5 foot groups, with a sleeping pad as a rest. I have trouble putting the sights in the same place each time, i am not sure were the front post should be in the rear peep. I have an idea, seen one picture of it but have not got that down yet.A lot of folks have trouble with aperture sights (or "ghost rings"). But it's like riding a bike. Once you get it, everything will come together and be as simple as... well, riding a bike.

http://www.tpub.com/content/advancement/14325/img/14325_320_1.jpg

As this picture shows, the tip of the front sight is at the exact center of the rear 'ring'. Don't try and concentrate on this too much. Relax and concentrate on the front sight. The human brain likes things to be symmetrical and will want the sight post to be centered horizontally. If you concentrate on the top edge of the sight post, your brain will want it to be centered vertically as well. Dry fire your rifle, aiming as a light colored, blank wall and practice this sight picture.

http://www.tpub.com/content/advancement/14325/img/14325_320_2.jpg

Here is the above sight picture with a "six o'clock" hold. This makes it easier to hold your sight in the same place on the target. If this target was at 100 yards, and your rifle's rear sight elevation was set to 100 yards, it should group your shots at the bottom of the black circle. And that's just fine. That's where you were aiming. If you wanted to put your shots in the center of the target, you'd need to adjust your elevation at the Garand's rear sight. (If this happened to be a 6" black circle and you set your elevation to 200 yards, it should move your shots up to about the center, give or take a click).

Obviously the "six o'clock" hold is really only good for shooting paper targets, but it will help you practice shooting and get your shots where you want them. Once you've mastered sight picture, trigger control, follow though, breathing and can get your shots consistent, then you can play with other types of holds without just frustrating yourself.

I got these diagrams from this page (http://www.tpub.com/content/advancement/14325/css/14325_320.htm). It explains these concepts in more detail.

neoncowboy
July 17, 2007, 09:03 PM
Guess i have some more practice ahead of me

Sounds like you need to find an Appleseed Shoot near you!

http://www.rwva.org

mindwip
July 18, 2007, 12:27 AM
DMK thanks for that. Great stuff. helped me.


neoncowboy sounds great, and think i would learn a lot, but they have nothing in Ca. :(

ProficientRifleman
July 18, 2007, 01:27 AM
4 inches is standard

kBob
July 18, 2007, 11:00 AM
Mindwip,

Print out DMK's post as he gave good illustrations and text.

I always liked the illustration in "Only Hits Count" a Training Curricula on M-1 marksmanship from Ft. Bennings's infantry School in the 1950s since reprinted by Paladin Press. (if its available get it)

Imagine looking through a knot hole in a board fence at a jack o'lantern sitting on a fence post. Center the top of the fence post in the exact center of the knot hole and the Jack o'lantern appears as a round bull shoud when you have proper sight alignment and a good aiming point.

I serieously think everyone getting their first M-1 ought to look for "Only Hits Count". It makes clear leads for moving targets, windage estimation and adjustment, the effects of temperature on shot placement, zeroing the rifle for battle sight zero, the use of the web sling, and a host of other information.

Anyone that knows where this TC reprint is available please let folks know as with it you will be busting pumkins in no time.

-Bob Hollingsworth

funfaler
July 18, 2007, 12:04 PM
Let me Second the Appleseed suggestion.

They will instill the skills to enable you to shoot your M1 at under 4 MOA, from field positions, no rest required;)

You will come away from the weekend with the needed skills to be able to use our M1 out to 500+ yards, with the standard sights and have the knowledge to use your rifle the way it was intended to be used.

Besides, you will meet a bunch of good folks that have similiar interests.

You can not beat the price for a weekend of quality marksmanship instruction.

Enjoy By the way the web site address has changes here it is http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

DawgFvr
July 18, 2007, 12:37 PM
After a complete disassembling of the weapon, my M1 barrel seems to re-seat itself into the stock and always gives me a vertical shot string...usually settles down by the next clip though and it begins grouping nicely. Of course you do not need to take it all apart to clean it every time...but, oh, it's so much fun. This is one weapon I enjoy tinkering with while I clean it!

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/DawgFvr/M1%20Garand/M1onRange2.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/DawgFvr/M1%20Garand/Garand.jpg

Guy B. Meredith
July 18, 2007, 02:14 PM
Is the vertical string you or the rifle? I got vertical strings last time out even off the bags, but think it is me as I do not believe they are climbing in firing sequence. Had not done that previously.

I used the instructions in the sticky on the page below to float the barrel on my 1943 Field Grade.

http://battlerifles.ambackforum.com/viewforum.php?f=109&sid=e911d17dba511daa91408661679f3f86

By the way, the alternate sight picture is to have the top of the post centered as pictured above, but the bullseye looking like a half circle on top. I have problems both ways, an white line whose width I cannot control under the bull in the bull on post view or not being able to see exactly where the top of the black post is in the middle of the black bull. The latter method would seem to make knowing bull size unnecessary. The bull on post would require different sight adjustment for different size bulls, but that is probably irrelevant in competition where standard targets are used.

DawgFvr
July 18, 2007, 02:37 PM
Well...the vertical string stops for me right after the first clip...again, only after a complete rifle take down for cleaning. If you continue to get vertical strings than I suspect that your sight picture is chaning or the lay of the weapon is moving. Whichever sighting method you use...just be consistent...and remember your breathing! Breathe in...breathe out...stop breathing at the normal pause between breaths...just long enough to squeeze off a round.

mindwip
July 18, 2007, 02:52 PM
The closest Appleseed shoot is in Boulder City, NV (Las Vegas), in January. But that was for last year. If they have one in 08 i think i will head out and make a weekend of it. I have read the site and looks like it will be a lot of fun.


For now i will get the Fred's marksmanship book mentioned on the website.


Thanks again for all the advise.

30Cal
July 18, 2007, 03:07 PM
Someone on calguns.net was looking to put together a highpower clinic down in your area.


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=62551

U.S.SFC_RET
July 18, 2007, 07:10 PM
Vertical stringing is caused by those hand guards, mainly the rear hand guard rubbing against the receiver. If you cannot slide a dollar bill between the rear of the hand guard and the front of the receiver than slightly sand off the offending wood and try again. Shooting a round through the barrel causes a whipping action through that barrel and the hand guard is preventing a true resonance, a harmonic action if you will. Causes a dull and or a dead spot (methinks unpredictable) if the offending wood is offending plus the barrel is heating up complicating the matter.

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