M1A project done, traditionalists cover your eyes


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trbon8r
July 18, 2007, 02:27 PM
Here are a few pics of my M1A project with VLTOR modstock.

This rifle is a Springfield receiver with all USGI parts with the exception of the barrel which is a Criterion GI profile. Mods are a trigger job, and unitized gas system. The scope is a Leupold 1.5-5 MR/T with lit SPR reticle. The scope mount is an ARMS that was modified by WARBIRD into an older style split rail ARMS, which I prefer over the current ARMS mount.

The VLTOR stock with pistol grip makes the rifle a little more handy, and also helps solve the cheek weld issue with optics with the built in adjustable up and down travel of the stock. The stock also helps to lighten up the rifle a bit. :)

This is my Walter Mitty rifle I plan to take through a fighting rifle course at some point. I've had the rifle out to the range twice. The first time out I had no problem scoring hits on bowling pins set up at 300 yards from the prone position with an ammo can for support and Portugese surplus ammo. Even when I missed it wasn't by much. I benched the rifle at 100 yards. Groups currently hover just over an inch at 100 yards with the same Portugese surp ammo.

All things considered I'm happy! By way, M14 traditionalists don't hate me too bad, I've got a couple other M14s that wear pretty wood as well. :)

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fletcher
July 18, 2007, 02:27 PM
Can't say I care for that color scheme, but overall it looks great.

Excellent work.

trbon8r
July 18, 2007, 02:31 PM
Can't say I care for that color scheme, but overall it looks great.


The handguard wasn't painted because the VLTOR stock doesn't come with a handguard painted to match. Actually the stock is designed to be used with the cluster rail as used on the SOCOM II http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=18, which I didn't want.

Rather than all those rails I wouldn't use, I figure I could always install a section of rail on the front of the stock for mounting a weapon light if I find having a light is a must for the fighting rifle class I plan to take. I debated on painting the handguard to match, and may still. I guess the desert tan is either a love it or hate it thing.

Thanks for the compliment. :)

TIMC
July 18, 2007, 05:38 PM
Came out very well. Nice looking rifle!

Chipperman
July 18, 2007, 05:41 PM
I was very tentative about clicking on this thread, but it actually looks pretty nice.

Good job. Just don't do it to a Garand. ;)

Cosmoline
July 18, 2007, 05:44 PM
Submit it to the DOD in response to their next requests for proposals. Tell them it's the new G-RAND individual weapons system.

trbon8r
July 18, 2007, 05:55 PM
Submit it to the DOD in response to their next requests for proposals. Tell them it's the new G-RAND individual weapons system.

Does this mean I would need the HK marketing department to go to work on the project? :p

BsChoy
July 18, 2007, 06:03 PM
Very nice!!!

Neo-Luddite
July 18, 2007, 06:23 PM
Sharp.

Harry Paget Flashman
July 18, 2007, 07:01 PM
Mine didn't turn out as nice as yours. But then I was using an SKS and a Tapco T6 stock. Nice work.

Bartholomew Roberts
July 18, 2007, 09:26 PM
What is the total weight on that?

Davo
July 18, 2007, 09:29 PM
Unusual look, but looks like quality stuff went into it.
Hows the cheek weld on that?

bartsimpson123844
July 18, 2007, 09:56 PM
It looks excellent, although I believe it would look better in O.D. :)

trbon8r
July 18, 2007, 10:18 PM
The cheek weld is great since the stock is adjustable, and can work equally well with irons or optics. I could raise the butt stock up more if needed.

Bartholomew, I would love to know the weight of the whole package. I need to get it on a scale and find out. Part of my plan was to make this rifle as light as possible. The VLTOR stock shaves some weight, and the ARMS scope mount is just about the lightest of the scope mounts available for the M1A. I may in the future consider changing to an 18.5" barrel to make the rifle handier and shave a few more ounces.

You won't mistake this rifle for an M4 carbine, but it's no pig either.

MassMark
July 18, 2007, 11:12 PM
SWEET! Very sweet indeed. I too, part with the color, (I'm an OD/Black Fan), but Jesus, that set-up is really nice! Can;t wait to get my MCS up to spec like that and I hear what you're saying about cheek-weld. It's no longer an issue for me at all either. Excellent looking rifle! :)

trbon8r
July 18, 2007, 11:22 PM
Ok ok, the color wasn't really my first choice either. :) I would have preferred the black or the OD version.

After much searching I found this stock for a good deal brand new in the box, so I bought it, although desert tan doesn't do me much good in Maryland. :neener:

Right now I'm more into just testing the whole package to find out how it works for me, and I can worry about "pretty" later on if at all. So far I think the whole package works great and will be a keeper!

I may eventually send the stock off for a camo job. Any recommendations on where I should send it for a top notch job? I was told VLTOR uses KG Gunkote and I'm not sure the old stuff would even come off.

MassMark
July 18, 2007, 11:31 PM
I have a better idea...If SHTF, hide in the local sand pit... :neener:

I'm not really sure where to send you on that one - any thoughts on doing it yourself? I have seen some pretty impressive work come out of people's garages....Just a thought.

precisionshootist
July 20, 2007, 06:10 AM
trbon8r

Looks great!

Just curious, how much more do you think it cost you to build this rifle with all GI parts? Also why did you go with an after market barrel over a chrome lined GI? Was the barrel choice for accuracy or just lack of availability of USGI?

M110
July 20, 2007, 06:44 AM
Was there a sale on at TAPCO :neener:

trbon8r
July 20, 2007, 07:05 AM
precisionshootist,

The cost for me to use USGI parts was minimal because I bought a bunch of GI parts back when CMP was selling them pretty cheap. Back then op rods, bolts, trigger groups were in the $40 range. On this rifle I replaced the commercial SA Inc. trigger group, op rod, and rear sight assembly with GI stuff. Since I had my stash of CMP parts, when I resold the commercial parts that I took off I didn't lose any money. In my opinion, some of the SA Inc. commercial parts are ok, and some are crap. It just depends.

If you were to build a rifle from scratch with just a receiver, and USGI parts kit the cost would be considerable. USGI parts kits are running in the neighborhood of $1000 these days. If you can, rather than building a rifle, I always recommend looking for an older M1A that will be made up of GI parts. It's cheaper than building a rifle from scratch. I didn't have that luxury when I bought this rifle. I bought it when I lived in California right before the "assault weapon" ban. During those uncertain times people were scooping up anything and everything, and I was just happy to get any M1A.

This rifle started out as a complete Springfield Inc. rifle with Stainless barrel. I didn't like the stainless barrel so I had it removed and sold it off. It was then replaced with the Criterion barrel. On my gunsmith's recommendation I went with a standard Criterion barrel instead of the chrome lined barrel because with commercial M14 type receivers there can be some variance from one receiver to the next. With a non-chrome bore this allows the smith to install a short chambered barrel, and then ream for proper headspace. We tried a Criterion chrome lined barrel, but it would not headspace. I guess if my smith had enough chrome lined barrels to choose from he might have found one that would have eventually headspaced.

kvincent
September 14, 2008, 05:43 PM
trbon8r,

I'm resurrecting this thread because I'm about to put the same mount on my rifle and I'd like to know if you're still happy with it. Any loss of zero or other issues? Would you make the same choice of a Warlord modified ARMS #18 again?

Thanks in advance,

Kerry

trbon8r
September 14, 2008, 06:34 PM
kvincent,

There have been no problems with the mount at all, and I do shoot the rifle frequently. I recommend the modified ARMS mount.

Jason_G
September 14, 2008, 08:22 PM
Utter sacrilege :uhoh:, but I hope you enjoy it. I didn't see in any of the previous posts (maybe I missed it), but what does the final product weigh?

Jason

MTMilitiaman
September 14, 2008, 08:33 PM
Did you ever get the rifle weighed?

And does that chassis system have any sort of a bedding system, or is bedding still required to get optimal long-term accuracy from the platform?

H2O MAN
September 14, 2008, 08:34 PM
Sweet!

I like it :)

kvincent
September 14, 2008, 08:55 PM
Thanks Trbon8r! I gather Warlord is a member here? I'm new, though I have lurked for a while, but I'm not sure how to contact him. Are there any more pics of your setup around? I don't want to put you to any more trouble, but if they're out there...

I'm planning on putting a Leupold Mk IV 4.5x14 50mm on the mount and I'd like to head off any problems. The one that leaps to mind is spent cases hitting the turret when they eject. Any concerns there with a mount this low?

As for sacrilege? Ha! I guess I'm a middle of the road pansy! :D I like' em all. Trbon8r's rifle looks great, but mine is a traditional wooden stock. It's really the modified ARMS mount I was most interested in. This is my first M1A, so I figure I'll leave it pretty traditional. But my next one? :evil:

Thanks all,

Kerry

kcmarine
September 14, 2008, 09:17 PM
Sweet!

I like it

You're slippin'...

sarduy
September 14, 2008, 09:18 PM
beautiful

SamG.
September 14, 2008, 09:21 PM
Very nice! Good job tacticooling it without adding extra bulk.

Browning
September 14, 2008, 09:36 PM
Looks good to me.

Do the flat lines on the butt of that stock accentuate the recoil though?

I've been kind of interested in some of the add on stocks for M1A's before (Sage, MCann and this one), but some of them make the rifle look really light in weight and the butt stock on some of them hasn't looked too comfortable.

Has that been a problem? Or have you not noticed any difference or increase in recoil?

No one I know has gotten one, so I can't ask any one I know personally.

H2O MAN
September 14, 2008, 09:46 PM
Recoil & modern M14 stocks:

I have found that felt recoil is reduced slightly with modern pistol gripped M14 stocks mostly due to added weight up front.
Muzzle rise is noticeably reduced because the recoil is more of a straight push back into the shoulder, the pistol grip also
helps the shooter better control muzzle rise.


Browning, a USGI E2 stock is a good choice... if you can find one.

HorseSoldier
September 14, 2008, 09:57 PM
Less ugly than a lot of attempts to upgrade that dinosaur.

Browning
September 14, 2008, 10:20 PM
H2O MAN : I have found that felt recoil is reduced slightly with modern pistol gripped M14 stocks mostly due to added weight up front.
Muzzle rise is noticeably reduced because the recoil is more of a straight push back into the shoulder, the pistol grip also
helps the shooter better control muzzle rise.

Browning, a USGI E2 stock is a good choice... if you can find one.

Hmm, good to know thanks.

I have a couple SA .308's, but none of them have one of the new aftermarket stocks on there. They're just so expensive, plus I didn't want to pay out that amount of money for something that I may or may not end up liking.

Kind of Blued
September 14, 2008, 11:03 PM
The gap between the grip and the stock reminds me of the metal band around the Enfield just in front of the grip. :)

Looks like fun! I agree chopping the barrel would make some sense to really round out the rifle.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 14, 2008, 11:23 PM
Not *nearly* as hideous as the SAGE EBR stocks. Not bad really. :)

ColinthePilot
September 15, 2008, 02:06 AM
I can't say I like the color scheme, but thats been beaten to death. From my traditionalist standpoint, its not really my cup of tea. But, hey, as long as you're happy, its good. I can't object too much since the M1A is still in production. If you did this to a Garand, I would cry.

D-Day
September 15, 2008, 10:03 AM
I love the M1A, both in traditional and modified forms. The desire people have to modify them ensure that they will have a place in this world for a long time to come.

Good looking rifle.

havoc7usmc
September 15, 2008, 10:33 AM
Where did you get the scope base??

trbon8r
September 15, 2008, 12:42 PM
__________ you! and the Horse you rode in on

Ah don't be too hard on Horse Boy. Him and his counterpart Ash both foam at the mouth when anything good is said about the M14. I don't think they can even help it anymore. When the M14 is the subject matter, no one takes what they say seriously anyway.

Someone asked about the weight. If the scale I'm using is accurate, the rifle as pictured comes in at 11 pounds exactly with no magazine, but includes the addition of the MK14 Mod 0 three point sling from Fulton Armory. The VLTOR stock definitely shaves a few ounces off a regular GI fiberglass stock.

I am going to get around to doing a proper camo job on the stock, and when I wear this barrel out I will likely swap it out for an 18.5". If I knew where to send the stock to get a decent camo job done, and have the old finish properly removed, I'd do it.

Someone asked about where I got the ARMS mount. It is a standard ARMS #18 that was sectioned out and modified into the older style split rail design by WARBIRD. I prefer the split rail design, because the ARMS mount sits so low, a solid rail can and has caused ejection issues on some M14 rifles. With the modified design there is no chance of having a case hang up.

havoc7usmc
September 15, 2008, 02:00 PM
Would like to get the info on the scope mounts. I like that setup and would consider putting them on my M1A1

H2O MAN
September 15, 2008, 02:22 PM
havoc7usmc Would like to get the info on the scope mounts.

Contact WarBird ~ http://warbirdscustomguns.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php

Vaarok
September 15, 2008, 04:12 PM
I pronounce it the E-12 Stormtrooper Blaster Rifle.

trbon8r
September 15, 2008, 04:28 PM
MTMilitiaman,

There is no bedding needed for this rifle. It's just a standard GI stock that I had a local service rifle smith check the fit on and do a little touch up with a file to make sure the barreled action and trigger group locks up good and tight. The lockup is tight, but it's still easy to disassemble the rifle. The gun is a real shooter, and I couldn't be happier.....well except for the color scheme as others have mentioned. ;)

I could tell you about some of the groups the rifle shoots, but it wouldn't matter anyway, since on the net everyone has an MOA rifle. :) Honestly, I don't do a ton of bench shooting with the rifle anyway. I prefer more practical type shooting from field positions.

Ash
September 15, 2008, 08:31 PM
Alright, personal flames and attacks coming from a fanboi (or is it two?) who drinks the koolaid with the best of them. Of course, it means not actually reading my posts. Get your blinders off, son, and try getting more of your knowledge from practical experience and not the latest version of counterstrike.

If you have ever, EVER, bothered, you'd know I have plenty of respect for the M14. I'm just not slavishly, almost incestuously in love of the platform and cannot see any legitimate reason to fork over $4,000 for something that is in no way any more effective than other weapons on the market at 25% or less of the cost.

Ash

trbon8r
September 15, 2008, 09:31 PM
Get your blinders off, son, and try getting more of your knowledge from practical experience and not the latest version of counterstrike.

First off, I'm not your son, thankfully.

Second, my experience comes from years of shooting M14s both informally and in competition, and thousands of rounds downrange. In fact I was out shooting one of mine today, because I was enjoying learning more about the rifle and what it can do. Meanwhile you were doing what you do, weren't you? You were running around this board trying to find another M14 thread to crap on, and drop your snide little comments.

We get it already, you prefer a "dinosaur" of another flavor, the FAL. Go rain on somebody else's thread, or start another thread with a tribute to the greatest rifle ever, the FAL. :barf:

H2O MAN
September 15, 2008, 09:38 PM
I know that you have plenty of respect for the M14.

Ash: ...cannot see any legitimate reason to fork over $4,000 for something
that is in no way any more effective than other weapons on the market...

I also know that you have zero first hand experience with a $4000.00 plus SEI built M14.

Ash
September 15, 2008, 09:42 PM
Heh,

I don't consider the FAL the greatest invented, either. All rifles have their advantages. The M1 was, in my opinion, the greatest rifle in WWII and, when compared with its contemporaries, the greatest of all time. The m14 is a fine rifle, especially for civilians. I owned one and got rid of it only because it was no more accurate than my FAL and less accurate than my M1. Frankly, I would like a BM-59 but they are too expensive to justify.

Yet the fact remains that the M14 was a failure in its intended role and was very short-lived in general service. That's a fact that cannot be debated. Those who try like to point out Naval service or sniper use, which is really grasping (like the Japanese saying we started WWII because the USS Ward sank the midget sub).

I don't see why folks slavishly pour thousands into a rifle just to get it to perform with the general ergos of the FAL with only marginally greater accuracy. As a combat arm, the "modernizing" is like trying to take the 1952 Ford and trying to make it perform like a 2008 Acura. It can be done, but at what cost?

I don't mind folks spending what ever they will on their rifle. I have real doubts to the value of super-custom 1911's in any role beyond sport competition, but folks are welcome to do that. If I call the emperor naked, it might just be that the fat guy is standing there with a cheese-eating grin without a stitch of clothes on at all.

But Trebor, you seem intimidated by me, else you would not have felt the need to flame. Perhaps it is because your golden calf is really gold tone? Or is it that you have trouble with people who disagree with you?

Ash

trbon8r
September 15, 2008, 09:56 PM
But Trebor, you seem intimidated by me, else you would not have felt the need to flame.

Intimidated? :p

Way to pull a Clinton, and act like the victim when you were the instigator, coming on here comparing modernized M14s to 52 Fords with fuzzy dice and the like. Classic Willy Jeff Clinton at its best!!

I'm not going to debate which is better my M14s or your FALs. Its been done a million times, and it's boring. I know which one works best for me, and that's all that matters. One of these days I'll knock the dust off that FAL in the back of the safe and get it back out to the range. :neener:

Ash
September 15, 2008, 10:04 PM
Oh, I'm certainly no victim. Modernized is merely another way of saying undoing obsolescence. It is a stop-gap at best that results in a rifle that is a compromise in many ways.

But that does not mean the M14 is a piece of crap. There are many ways to employ the M14 that results in a rifle that costs less than half of "modernizing" yet is just as effective.

If you want to place all your effort in a spoiler and fuzzy dice, fine by me, though I do find it ironic that you choose to pull a Slick Willy by deflecting the discussion by likening me to said ex president.

Ash

H2O MAN
September 15, 2008, 10:13 PM
Said ex president was impeached...

Ash
September 15, 2008, 10:29 PM
In fairness, H20 is generally very genial in his discussions and doesn't generally resort to flaming.

Ash

trbon8r
September 15, 2008, 10:31 PM
In fairness, H20 is generally very genial in his discussions and doesn't generally resort to flaming.

Thanks, but you can keep the bait. Nice try though.

Ash
September 15, 2008, 10:34 PM
No baiting. I doubt H20 will ever "see the light" so to speak. Agreeing to disagree, however, is a concept that you might try sometime. Debate is fine. Throwing a fit is not.

Ash

trbon8r
September 15, 2008, 10:36 PM
Debate is fine. Throwing a fit is not.


Says Mr. Pot to Mr. Kettle. Man, you really are a riot. :D

Ash
September 15, 2008, 10:38 PM
What ever. I'm done with this as it is neither worth the time nor do I care just how tight your panties get wadded up.

Ash

trbon8r
September 15, 2008, 10:38 PM
Tsk tsk, we wouldn't want to throw a fit now. :evil:

H2O MAN
September 15, 2008, 11:15 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=60979&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1184783084 (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=60979&d=1184783084)
I like the full length barrel and the weight reduction.
One of SEI's GLFS with a DC Vortex would shorten the OAL by about 3/4s of an inch and make it a little handier.
An 18.0" barrel with the same SEI kit would make it very handy :)


For comparison purposes and just because I like to post pictures...
I have the GLFS-D-22 and a DC Vortex on my M21A5/C-IED E2 EBR.
OAL: 41.00" ~ 44.25". 12.50 lbs. as pictured below with an empty mag.


http://www.athenswater.com/images/NightFighter.jpg

kvincent
September 15, 2008, 11:18 PM
I'm new, so you can both tell me to STFU if you want, but all I wanted to know was where you got the cool mount and if you were still happy with it! I hate these stupid flame wars and I expected better from this forum. I have a folding Para Carbine SA-58 with a railed fore end that I love. Is it a modernized dinosaur? I have a collapsible, railed PTR-91 that I love less (sorry) and now I have my second M1A (wooden stock). I sold the first one four years ago. :( I also have an Fulton FAR-10, two ARs (5.56 and 6.8) and three AKs, plus a Benelli M4! I love them all! And I am well aware that my 'collection' is pathetic compared to LOTS of guys on this board and my experience level is not up to par, either, but why do we have to argue about this crap? They are all wonderful. Thank G-d and the 2nd Amendment we can own them. Buy what you want and what you can afford without depriving your children of food and be happy with your choice AND for the guys that make different choices. Geez!

Kerry

MTMilitiaman
September 15, 2008, 11:23 PM
Modernized is merely another way of saying undoing obsolescence. It is a stop-gap at best that results in a rifle that is a compromise in many ways.


The same can be said of the M16. The fact remains, neither is at the top of the totem pole right now. Both remain in service soley because it is too expensive to replace them.

The military has been "modernizing" both platforms for over 40 years. It "modernized" the M16 almost immediately upon adoption, which I guess means, if you apply the same standard to everything that you do to the M14, it was obsolete at about the same time as the M14. Come to think about it, even the FAL was modernized...

I priced FALs before buying my M1A. They were within a couple hundred dollars--I think the lower end DSAs were selling for around a grand--and my Springfield "Loaded" cost me $1300 out the door.

And lets not forget, nobody made you and Mr. Horsesoldier come in here and disrupt what was until then a civil discussion among aficionados of a platform we happen to enjoy.

elmerfudd
September 15, 2008, 11:46 PM
The main problem I see with the M14 isn't the stock or it's lack of a pistol grip or forward rails, it's the lack of a flattop and rail over the receiver. A modern rifle should be built with an optics mounting rail that puts whatever sights are used at the same level so that you have a proper cheek weld whether you are using iron sights, a scope or a red dot, (I'd say NV too, but given the bulk of NV scopes, that's probably still unrealistic).

What would really be an effective modernization of the M14 would be to redesign the receiver with a Picatinny rail going across the top, (not some sidemount, but an integral rail), and then raise the comb of the stock and the sights about 1". I don't know how you'd disassemble it with the top of the receiver closed off, but that would also have to be part of the new design.

I really don't see any problems with the weapon besides that. The safety is different, but it's easy to operate and the traditional style stock works as well as a pistol grip stock. The iron sights on it are superb. It's reasonably accurate and pretty reliable to boot.

H2O MAN
September 16, 2008, 07:28 AM
It's available elmerfudd, have a look at the M25 receiver from LRB and the LAW483 M14 MCS from TROY.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
September 16, 2008, 07:35 AM
I like it. It looks better than some of the MODS I've seen for the M1A

jburnett
September 16, 2008, 10:49 AM
Here's one I just built for a friend... This one uses the Troy MCS and is set up for DMR... Which is good cuz I wouldn't wanna hump this 15.25 lb mofo very far!! :D
-J.Burnett

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/DeepFreezeCryo/GunStuff103.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/DeepFreezeCryo/GunStuff102.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/DeepFreezeCryo/GunStuff101.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/DeepFreezeCryo/GunStuff100.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/DeepFreezeCryo/GunStuff099.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/DeepFreezeCryo/GunStuff098.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/DeepFreezeCryo/GunStuff097.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/DeepFreezeCryo/GunStuff096.jpg

H2O MAN
September 16, 2008, 10:57 AM
At one time, I had my MK14 SEI Mod 1
action wrapped in a LAW483 M14 MCS.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/Mod1MCS-EMOD1_small.jpg (http://www.athenswater.com/images/Mod1MCS-EMOD1.jpg)

It's a great system especially if you are
wanting to build a DMR or SASS :evil:

ApexinM3
November 6, 2008, 09:21 PM
Ah... modern-day M14/M1A platforms. Sage, Vltor, Troy MCS, etc; I love em! Definately nice to see further life being breathed into them! :cool:

Trbon8r, awesome build! I was kicking the idea around on going the same route, but chose the Sage Chopmod instead. Perhaps my next M1A will use the same stock, and if I do I hope you won't mind if I ask you a few questions beforehand.

Happy shooting & perhaps I'll see you around soon!

madcratebuilder
November 6, 2008, 09:31 PM
Not my favorite color but it looks great, very clean job. You have some very nice equipment on it.

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