Gunshop staff attitude: is this savvy?

I went into a gun shop the other day (actually, a pawn shop which sells guns), and I was looking at their offerings. Not much, but I saw a used 1911 I couldn't identify through the case for $699 and I asked to see it. (Turns out it was a Springfield GI with non-factory grips - what a gyp! Usually they're pretty reasonable there...)

He comes over, checks the chamber, lowers the hammer, and hands it to me. I go about checking tolerances and indexing the piece, working the action, and just generally handling the firearm so I don't make the guy feel like I've wasted his time in letting me handle it (no way I'm paying that for a GI). I then rack the slide, index on the corner of the room (about 5 feet away and not in the proprietor's direction, with nobody but the two of us in the shop) and dry-fire the pistol. I cock the hammer, lower it, cock it again, and then re-index on an object in the corner, and slowly dry-fire it again. The trigger was a bit soggy for a GI, I thought...

I then hand it back to the shop proprietor and thank him for letting me look at it. He puts it back in the case and starts to walk away when he says, with criticism in his voice, "You shouldn't dry-fire guns in a gun shop." :scrutiny: The impression I got when he said it was that he was saying it with the general attitude that it's something which might freak out the patrons and/or the workers, as if I'm going to 'cap someone's arse', even though he checked the action and stood there watching me do the same at least twice. (Note: I'm a clean-cut kinda guy, no tattoos, and well spoken.) I patronize him with an affirmative response, walk about a bit more, and leave.

Is it just me, or was his response to my dry-firing of the pistol completely off-base and inappropriate? Yes, I realize it's his shop and therefore his rules, but c'mon; would it be reasonable to say a potential customer could not drive a car from a used car dealer? If it was a .22, I could understand him saying that (if he worded it specifically and not generally), particularly if it was after the first time I dry-fired and not after taking the piece back. I've dry-fired pistols and rifles both at every shop I've ever been in, and I've seen others do the same thing, so I don't think I'm too off in my assessment here...

I should note that I've been in there on a number of occasions, their gun guy knows me by name, and it's the only shop in the area which sells guns at all which is both not a chain and not staffed completely by pr*cks. This guy has been generally helpful and friendly in the past, so I was a bit miffed.

This kind of attitude from gun shop owners is really perplexing.

I always ask if I can dry fire first. I figure it's not my gun yet, so I'll ask permission first, even at the shops I frequent. If they say no, then they say no and I don't buy it.

I always ask if I can dry-fire the weapon I'm handling. I don't know what's normal procedure, though - but I don't want anyone getting uneasy with me just grabbing it and squeezing the trigger.

"You shouldn't dry-fire guns in a gun shop." Uh...everybody does it. I always ask first though. Like yomama said,if they say no or won't let me take the slide off I go about my merry way,no worse off than I was two minutes ago.

A lot of people arent too keen on buying a brand new gun that has been dry fired by thirty different people before they even get to see it.

It probably doesnt matter with centerfire pistols, but that's how it is.

Whenever I look at a new .22 I ask the shop guy if I can dry fire it. If he say's "yes" and doesnt hand me a snap cap or an expended cartridge I make a note not to purchase that gun.

And hey,the guy could have just been having a bad day too. A lot of people arent too keen on buying a brand new gun that has been dry fired by thirty different people before they even get to see it. I may be wrong but I don't think a hundred or so dry-fires is really going to hurt anything. It's not great,I know,but it's not all terribly bad either.

it's funny.

On one hand, I hate buying a gun that has been dry fired by previous customers. The only gun I ever bought that was from the display case has given me hell).

On the other hand, I feel it's important to be able to dry fire before buying so you know how the trigger feels.

I know I can't have it both ways and that it's terribly selfish of me, but that's just my crazy noggin for you.

Seems like common courtesy to ask first. If they say no, walk out the door. But you're still handling other people's merchandise. Asking permission is the proper thing to do.

I ask first, and request a snap cap. if one is not available, I'll put a small piece of paper in the way of the hammer, like a strip of matchbook cover.

Maybe they should put those annoying trigger locks on like at Bass Pro.

I always ask if I can dry fire the pistol before attempting to do so.

I NEVER dry-fire anyone's gun, whether in a gun shop or not, new or used.

I don't dry-fire mine, either. Ever.

It's not at all necessary.

You can tell all you need to know about a gun without doing that.

-- John D.

I have had a shop asked me prior to handing the weapon to please not work the action on a revolver because they didn't want the "ring" to start. That doesn't bother me.

I figure unless the shop tells me right off the bat or has a sign (which I haven't ever seen), anything I pickup is game to be dry fired.

I NEVER dry-fire anyone's gun, whether in a gun shop or not, new or used.

I don't dry-fire mine, either. Ever.

It's not at all necessary.

You can tell all you need to know about a gun without doing that.

So how to you tell what the trigger pull is like?

I have had a shop asked me prior to handing the weapon to please not work the action on a revolver because they didn't want the "ring" to start. That doesn't bother me.

I figure unless the shop tells me right off the bat or has a sign (which I haven't ever seen), anything I pickup is game to be dry fired.

Agreed. If they don't want it dry fired it should have a zip lock on it, like on a SAA or something. I mean, c'mon, it's a gun. It's meant to be fired and that means dry fired too. It's not going to hurt any new guns.

Shouldn't hurt it unless it is a rimfire.

Heck... I've sat around with folks dry-firing $1200 actions all night... smooth is good...

I always dry-fire and I always use my off-hand thumb to keep the hammer from falling all the way.

I've had a few owners tell me it's ok to dry-fire the gun while I'm doing my "modified dryfire".

My take?

ALWAYS ask permission to:

1. Handle someone else's gun.
2. Disassemble/field strip someone else's gun.
3. Dryfire someone else's gun.

I agree that you should be allowed to do all those things in most cases when you are contemplating a purchase. But asking first is still the right thing to do.

I always ask.

If he was going to tell you not to dry-fire, he should have said something the first time you did it. Not after you'd dry-fired it twice and gave the gun back to him. Seems like there was plenty of time for him to say "Don't do that again." after the first time.

always ask.


the REASON you always ask is that that myths about dry firing are pervasive. lots of gun owners think it's bad for guns for any number of reasons. it doesn't matter if it is or isn't; the point is that by being polite, you avoid the potential for offense. You also show you know a little something about guns yourself, simply by asking.


edit: in fact, while we're on the subject...
you shouldn't rotate the cylinder in a revolver w/o asking.
you shouldn't disassemble any weapon (even including disengaging the rear pin on an AR15, or removing the bolt from a rifle) w/o asking.
you usually shouldn't handle guns within reach (like displayed on top of the counter) w/o asking.
etc.

First, we are talking about a used 1911 here, so dry firing will not hurt the gun, in any way.

Before dryfiring another man's gun though, you should ask.

I never ask the clerk if he has snap caps. I get uneasy when I hear someone rack an action and something falls onto the counter top, and I don't want to have that effect on anyone else.

Instead, I do about the same thing that JohnKSa does. I dry fire a SA with my off hand thumb in the notch between the hammer and slide, or between the hammer and frame in the case of a revolver. I put my thumb deep enough in the notch to keep the hammer from whacking it hard, but not so deep as to apply rearward force to the hammer and thereby lighten the trigger pull.

When testing a DA trigger pull it is easy to slow the fall of the hammer by riding the spur with my off hand thumb.

Heck, I work at a gun shop, and we don't care.

Only exceptions are:

Rimfires, for the obvious reasons
"Glass case" type stuff
POINTING IT AT ME WHILE YOU DO IT.


It won't hurt the gun as long as it's a centerfire. For the sake of wear, we draw the line at the >$1500 and collector's stuff, but the folks we're showing those to aren't the types to dry-fire anyhow. (I'm not handing consecutive serial # Stampedes to any bozo who's already asked about Desert Eagles)

Number 3 happens from time to time, at which the gun gets snatched. Should it happen to hit said person in the chin, oops.

It IS nice when people ask before dry-firing, though. Courtesy is never wasted. :)

Outlaws,

Like some other posters mentioned, I have my thumb on the hammer, pull the trigger and let it fall "impeded" so it doesn't hit the firing pin hard and move it forward.

This is not "dry-firing" it because it's not allowing the hammer to fall freely, hit the firing pin and send it forward as would happen when shooting live ammo.

Dry-firing IS just cocking it and pulling the trigger with no interference of the hammer fall.

Consequently, I NEVER dry-fire a gun.

-- John D.

Seems like common courtesy to ask first. If they say no, walk out the door. But you're still handling other people's merchandise. Asking permission is the proper thing to do.

I did ask: I said, "mind if I take a look at that 1911". He said sure, and he handed it to me. Why would it be any different to ask whether or not I could dry fire? That's kinda why I asked in the first place - so I could see how the gun's basic mechanisms were functioning and if there was an immediate problem with the pistol.

Now, if I want to do something more indepth (ie take the gun apart), I'll ask further. But dry firing? C'mon - what's the harm in that, seriously?

ETA: Sorry, I didn't realize some people were paranoid about silly things like this. It never occurred to me to be superstitious about the normal operation of a gun causing it to somehow malfunction or wear unduly, even without the presence of ammunition...

I always ask if I can dry fire. If it's a centerfire and won't allow me to do so in a safe manner, I just turn around and leave. Let's see, you asked to look at a gun you had no intention of buying, checked it over thoroughly, dry fired without asking, and then get upset and think the guy's a p**ck because he mentioned something about it to you. You still didn't buy the gun. Looks like you got exactly what you paid for. :rolleyes:

I was looking at a used Dan Wesson Pistol Pac a couple of months ago, and the guy selling it got all bent out of shape on me when I dry fired it once. "He practically yells at me, "You aren't supposed to do EVER do that without a snap cap!!". I look at him like he's nuts. He says, "Didn't anyone tell you that?". I just picked up the manual, opened it up to the page where it says dry firing is fine, and asked him, "Didn't you ever read the manual?" A friend was seriously thinking about buying it, but they couldn't negotiate the price. It was in decent shape, but was missing one of the barrel nuts, and the 2+1/2" barrel.

These things are meant to be fired, and that means dry fired too. Dry firing is also a part of training with them. Dry firing a centerfire handgun will not hurt it, whether it is a $500 gun or a $2000 gun. No problem dry firing a $2000 gun either (unless it's an engraved or collector piece). I have lots of expensive handguns and dry fire them all the time and dry fired them before buying them too. Working the action in a normal way is not going to hurt them. Wear patterns on guns are normal, unless it is being made a safe queen, which is pointless to me anyway.

It's more than just a "wear and tear on the gun" issue, guys, it's a safety issue. The reason I ask is so that the gun store clerk has notice that I'm about to put "my booger hook on the bang switch." I can imagine where someone might go "ballistic" if they had strangers coming in the store all day, picking up weapons at random, and dry firing them unnanounced. Imagine yourself as a clerk if you were to turn away for a second to answer the phone and the next thing you hear is a slide being racked. You turn to find the guy who just walked in the door with his finger on the trigger about to pull it. Are you certain he didn't just put a round in the chamber while you weren't looking? Caution dictates that you should make sure.

Think about how your local hardware store would feel if everyone who wanted to look at a circular saw decided they should plug it in and pull the trigger "to see if it works". Can you see any safety issues? Common courtesy dictates that you ask before putting your finger on the trigger of a gun that's not yours. Yeah, I'd get upset and say something, but I'd know why instead of just having a vague intimation about something being "not right".

"Sorry, I didn't realize some people were paranoid about silly things like this."

You asked and the answer is "It's customary to ask before dry firing." At least it is at 90% of the shops I've been in over 50 years.

John

I actually asked at 22 year old fella behing the counter at Gander mountain if I could dry fire the Ruger gp100 I was holding, he said

"no, nobody dry fires any of our guns. It will break them before someone can even shoot them!"
I then informed him of the difference, calmly and politely, between how rimfire firing pins and centerfire firing pins work. "The steel on steel contact is what you're talking about, and it is most certainly true."

"That's not what I've heard. It's my policy never to let anyone fire our guns."

I politely handed the gun back to him and informed him that the price of $550 on a blued gp100 was as inaccurate as the information they have about dry firing.

First... I don't need to feel the trigger on a firearm unless I'm seriously thinking of purchasing the gun, or one like it. From the original post, once I had identified the pistol, and decided it wasn't worth the money, I would have handed it back. No need to dry fire, I know what a typical 1911 trigger feels like, and I'm not interested in this particular one anyway.

Second... you gotta ask.

I also ask to dry fire a gun I am looking over. The answer has always been, sure...

I always use my thumb, weak hand cupped over the top of the pistol and thumb pointed towards the back, almost touching the hammer before pulling it.

And I always ask as a matter of courtesy - what I believe about dry-firing is irrelevant. The firearm is his property and therefore it's his world-view that matters; I would hope that I'm not arrogant enough to try and impose my opinion onto his property.

I did ask: I said, "mind if I take a look at that 1911". He said sure, and he handed it to me. Why would it be any different to ask whether or not I could dry fire?

Well, do you mind if I look at your wife/girlfriend? If it goes further it should be ok, after all I did ask to "look" at her.

Something along the same lines with guns. I always ask about dry firing before I do it. If it is a factory gun I will assume it has a crappy trigger. I will cock it and then lower the hammer gently with my thumb if I want to make sure all the connecting parts are working. If it is a high end gun, I won't even ask, I know the answer will be no 99% of the time. I also don't let the slide fly closed on an empty chamber (if it is a semi-auto). I just consider it respect of another persons property. If you want to let the slide fly home after it is yours, go for it. Same with dry firing, once it is yours you can dry fire it all you want. When I get a new gun home, the first thing I do is clean it and then dry fire it a thousand times or so to smooth it up.

Some of the shops I visit have prominent signs that advise No Dry Firing, some don't, but I still ask.

If they say no, I understand and don't do it.

bob

What Yomama said is exactly right.

I would never dry-fire someone elses gun with out first asking permission, and using my off thumb to cushion the hammerfall.

When its mine I will dry-fire to no end.

Common courtesy.

And dont let the slide fall without a round being fed, and dont spin the cylinder and snap it shut with a flick of you wrist either.

It is even ruder to dry-fire it AFTER :scrutiny: deciding that you are not intrested in buying!:cuss:

as others have said, i always ask permission before i dry fire. just raised to ask permission with things that aren't mine, i guess. so far, no one has denied permission, although i also haven't had occasion to ask on a rimfire yet. in that situation, it would be a red flag to me if they allowed it without offering a snapcap or expended cartridge. more likely, though, i'd just decide which .22 i really wanted, and purchase it new without dry-firing.

another thing i've been thinking about trying...
when shopping for guns in calibers i already own, i've been considering bringing along snapcaps of my own and asking permission to use them. i'm not sure how this would be taken by gunshop employees. any thoughts on this?

Caimlas,

I don't see anything wrong with what the gun store guy said, especially in light of the fact that you did not ask if you could dry fire it, nor did you ask which direction in the store would be considered as a safe direction in which to point the gun. The gun store clerk probably thought you had done it pretty safely, except for the fact that you dry fired it pointing it in a questionable direction, otherwise my guess is he would have really chewed you out instead of maybe just being a little gruff.

All the best,
GB

Thanks Glenn... While that's possible, the wall I pointed it at was an outside wall on a cinderblock building. The wall was right by the store's parking lot, and there is a 1/4" or so sheet of steel on the outside wall.

As for those who say, "ask", despite your flawed analogies to women and power tools, that argument doesn't hold up in my mind. It is a common practice, as near as I can tell, to dry fire guns in a gun shop. I see guys doing it all the time on the new and used rifle racks at various shops as well as pistols when they're handed them. If it was not acceptable to do so there would either a) be signs saying so and/or b) be a way to prevent a customer from picking up the firearm without permission (or at least to discourage it, such as the original box the gun came in from the manufacturer). I've seen neither.

(Looking back, I do recall seeing one such sign in a NY gun shop - it said "do not handle without permission" and the shotguns were all $5k+ or so.) It is a show room for cryin' out loud.

And I didn't dry fire the gun after I'd decided to not buy it. I may still buy a Springfield GI. I just won't be doing so for that price. Would it not be more polite to make the assumption that the pistol had a tuned trigger (thus the price) instead of him putting it about $100 above MSRP and that he was a bit of a con artist?

As for those who say, "ask", despite your flawed analogies to women and power tools, that argument doesn't hold up in my mind. It is a common practice, as near as I can tell, to dry fire guns in a gun shop.

So, just how many people will tell you that it's a common practice to ask before dry-firing someone else's weapon before you'll accept that it is, indeed, both good manners and a common practice?

Justin,

Maybe if I were to see a single person ask a gunshop employee if he could dry fire a weapon before picking it up off the rack and doing so, or if I'd been chastised in the past over it for anything except the one time I dry fired a .22 ("don't dry fire .22s, it's bad for the pins" - no mention of centerfires). Then I'd start to entertain the possibility that it was common practice.

As for the good mannered part, I can accept that it's good manners to ask before doing something. However, given what I've seen of the behavior of both gun shop owners and gun shop patrons, I'm not going to assume it's rude to dry fire without first asking unless there's a sign saying otherwise, particularly with used guns.

Again, this guy didn't say "ask before dry firing" he said "don't dry fire in gun shops". Big difference, and the whole point.

Anyway, the broader question (or statement) I was trying to ask/make was along the lines of, "No wonder people don't like to go into gun shops. The majority of those in there are ignorant, pretentious people and will bark at and/or chastise a paying customer* harshly for a perceived fault." Kind of a, "hey, if you own a gun shop, don't do this - it will drive off customers" warning.

*Ive bought a number of things from this specific individual in the past.

Let it go... A offhand comment is getting you this worked up? Next time ASK.
OK I was at a workshop and doing my best but knew I was not "getting it exactly right" The head honcho made a comment about "making up your own methods" and I got ticked. IF I would focas on that/walk out in huff/etc nothing good would come of it.
Instead consider what he is saying (ok poorly) and work on basics and improve. I realize this because I almost did walk out. I almost let myself waste time because I was going to take great offense at a off handed comment.
Using what you see others do in gun shops is as bad as GF/wife comparison. Most people do NOT handle guns correctly or even safely.

Just ask the gentleman behind the counter, first.

If it's not yours, it is just common courtesy to ask before you do anything with someone else's firearm.

If it's yours, do what you want with it.

Sales people who tell you not to dry fire the guns... they're basically used car salesmen. I've dealt with that kind plenty of times. They're usually too damn snooty and condescending too. I got to where I ask about dry firing. If they give me some jazz about it being bad for the gun, I take my business elsewhere. This one shot locally here... I did business with then for 15 years and they took that attitude with me about four years ago. I don't do business with them and I won't recommend 'em either. The sad part is we could've been friends. Now, there's two shops I do business with on friendly terms... both of 'em don't mind if I dry fire.

It is a common practice, as near as I can tell, to dry fire guns in a gun shop.It is also common courtesy to ask first.I did ask: I said, "mind if I take a look at that 1911".Asking to "look" at a gun is not the same as asking to dryfire it.

If you asked to "take a look" at one of my guns and dryfired it without asking first I would be unimpressed. Not because you damaged the gun (although I do own a few guns that can be damaged by dryfiring) but because it's impolite to assume that my permission to allow you to "take a look" automatically allows you do to anything with the gun that you consider "common practice".I'm not going to assume it's rude to dry fire without first asking unless there's a sign saying otherwise, particularly with used guns.The key is that the guns are THEIR used guns. You act as if you have the right to dryfire someone else's guns just because the guns are used. Think about what you're saying.

At any rate, you don't need to assume. It is rude to dry fire without asking first. Regardless of whether the guns are used. Regardless of whether there's a sign or not. Regardless of your personal feelings on the subject.

The gun belongs to someone else. They may not want you to dryfire (we ALL know that some people don't like it). If you just go ahead and do what you want because it's "common practice", that is rude.

You see, rudeness is not defined by how YOU feel about your actions but by how your actions affect OTHERS.

A lot of people arent too keen on buying a brand new gun that has been dry fired by thirty different people before they even get to see it.


That's why I never buy a display model. I always ask for a NIB that's never been handled.

I always ask first.

I'll join the responses here and also say that I ask if I can dry fire. Not that I think it will damage the majority of firearms out there but that it is not my gun (yet). Same thing happens at the range too.

It is a common practice, as near as I can tell, to dry fire guns in a gun shop.

Well yea, it is, but most people have the good manners to ask first. Now, stop me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you came here to ask. Just because you're not hearing what you wanted to hear, doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.

I've never been told "No, don't dry fire," but I always ask.

Always ask first.

I also ask if I can dry fire first. That's gives them the option to give me a snap cap if they want to.

Should have been a poll. I think it would be about 90% "ask" by now...

I'm not going to assume it's rude to dry fire without first asking unless there's a sign saying otherwise, particularly with used guns.

really? do you need signs in place to tell you to participate in other practices of common courtesy? i would ask before i did anything with someone else's property. the question really has nothing to do with dry-firing, and i don't need a sign to know what's polite.

Just because you're not hearing what you wanted to hear, doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.

+1

It's not my shop 'n not my gun. I'd ask first. I never dry fire any of my pistols. I let the hammer down (gently). Just somethin' I do... 'Rifles are different (obviously) 'cept for the lever guns. I lower those gently too.

"do you need signs in place to tell you to participate in other practices of common courtesy?"

It's a sad fact, but "common" courtesy isn't so common anymore...

Well yea, it is, but most people have the good manners to ask first. Now, stop me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you came here to ask. Just because you're not hearing what you wanted to hear, doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.

Unfortunately most of the people here aren't answering the question initially asked, which was whether or not the shop owner was being rude. They're jumping up and saying, "hey, don't do that, be polite!"

really? do you need signs in place to tell you to participate in other practices of common courtesy?

Just because you and a bunch of other people interject that something is common does not make it so. The only time I have heard someone ask to dry fire a centerfire resulted in the shop's proprietor looking at the guy amusedly and saying, "sure, I don't see why not". Maybe they used to do things differently, but I've never seen it (I'm pretty young) - and that's from the over-40/50 customers, too.

Additionally, it did not occur to me that when asking to "take a look" it was not akin to asking to dry fire and otherwise do a function check of the firearm. Here's why: "Taking a look under the hood", as I understand it, implies checking function. As I've understood it, "mind if I take a look", whether it's to inspect something for purchase or attempting to fix a damaged computer, implies that the person taking the look is going to dig around and check things. It's like, "how ya doin'?" - a colloquialism which doesn't mean exactly what it says and largely depends on context.

Now that I understand that isn't the case with guns though, I do intend to ask prior to dry firing.
I'm really kind of surprised how this thread went. A large number of the responses were not high road, though there were some who chose to act unlike the shop matron.

I've never been told "No, don't dry fire," but I always ask.

I was, recently, while handling a Sig P210. But I figure the guy was nice enough to let me tire kick a pistol with a four-figure price tag, I'm not going to quibble over whether he should let me dry fire it or not.

Is it just me, or was his response to my dry-firing of the pistol completely off-base and inappropriate?

I always ask out of simple courtesy, and for the fact that I know it makes some people nervous. With that in mind, I don't feel it was off-base or inappropriate. I wasn't there and maybe he said it a little snottier than it needed to be said, but I don't think the statement in and of itself is particularly inappropriate. I actually have been reprimanded by clerks for hitting the slide release and not easing the slide home, which I personally don't understand. I mean, I want to know how easy/hard it is to use that control, and I don't think I am hurting the gun. Still, I ask about doing that now just to keep from freaking anyone out.

By the way Gator, thats a perfectly cromulent qoute you have there....

Unfortunately most of the people here aren't answering the question initially asked, which was whether or not the shop owner was being rude.Sorry, I thought that was understood.

No, the shop owner was not being rude. You assumed that his permission to "take a look" meant that you could do anything to the gun that you consider "common practice." THAT was rude. He was simply responding in a very understandable way to your taking liberties with his property.

He handled it quite politely. He didn't jump on you, command you to stop, grab the gun away, loudly chide you, call you names, etc. He simply advised you in a quite non-confrontational fashion that you shouldn't repeat the behavior. I disagree with his advice (I believe that you should be able to dry-fire after politely making the request), but from your description of the event his response seems very reasonable and not at all rude.

Any gun salesman who denies me the right to fully function check a weapon that I figure I may have to bet my life on... they are the ones who are rude regardless of how they say it. If I'm looking to buy, I will know the relationship between grip, trigger, and sights and how those effect each other. No dry fire = no sale. End of story.

No dry fire = no sale. End of story.

Thats a perfectly fine attitude to have, but it ignores the question of whether you would just dry-fire at will, or whether you would ask first.

If you look back at my first post in this thread, you'll notice I said I do ask first. No dry fire and I take my business somewhere I can tell more about what I'm buying.

.

Any gun salesman who denies me the right to fully function check a weapon that I figure I may have to bet my life on... they are the ones who are rude regardless of how they say it.No, this is not correct.

You have no RIGHT to do anything with HIS gun. If he doesn't want you to dryfire it there's nothing rude about it. He may lose a sale, but it's his gun and therefore it's his rules too.

There is no RIGHT to dryfire someone else's firearm. There is no RIGHT to "fully function check" someone else's weapon.

For what it's worth, I think that a prospective buyer should be allowed to dryfire a gun (barring cases where dryfire would cause damage). But if the owner says no, that's HIS right. At that point you can either walk or buy, but until you buy, it's still his and he gets to say what you can or can't do with it.

I'm beginning to get a feel for why so many gun store owners tend to be less than jovial. Apparently some prospective gun buyers feel that walking into a gun store essentially gives them partial ownership rights of any gun they feel like handling for as long as they're in the store.

Unfortunately most of the people here aren't answering the question initially asked, which was whether or not the shop owner was being rude. They're jumping up and saying, "hey, don't do that, be polite!"

Actually I think everyone has answered your question, but since we're not saying what you want to hear, I suppose it has to be spelled out. No, the shop owner was not being rude. You were.

I think there are some guns that don't like dry fire. The KelTec P-3AT is one. I saw some supposed dry fire damage to some pins/screws (forget which) over at KTOG forums. I usually use snapcaps on my guns for practice. Shops, I always ask first.

I'll go back to the original question.

Caimlas: Is it just me, or was his response to my dry-firing of the pistol completely off-base and inappropriate?

The shop owner's attitude towards you was not good for business, in my opinion. His response was off base in that people should be allowed to dry fire 1911s in gun shops. Customers should still ask permission first. You have no control over the shop owner's attitude. You only have control over your patronage.

Your feelings afterwards are also off base and inappropriate. This is likely because of the condescending attitude directed at you by the shop owner, and I don't fault you for that. Your feelings though, are off base and inappropriate. You do have control over them.

Step back, look at it unemotionally, and decide how you would want other's to treat your gun. That will tell you how you should treat the guns belonging to others.

Because you got rather tripped up on this courtesy between shooters, I'm guessing that you may get tripped up on some others. Fr. Frog did a page a while back on gun manners. I copied it to my blog here (http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2007/06/gun-manners.html). Take a look, you may find another thing or two you did not realize that could trip you up. Maybe, maybe not.

There is no foul in not knowing a common courtesy. There is, however, foul in not accepting it and extending it once it is explained. This thread is rapidly becoming a circular argument ripe for disagreements taken personally. Let's avoid that. I came close to just closing the thread to avoid such exchanges, but I like to believe we can keep a discussion like this on the high road.

This tale reminds me of why I do not own a Colt WWI Repro. I have seen two that were being offered for sale. The first one had an off center recoil plug hole. No buy. I saw the second one about a year later, and it appeared to be perfect, with a fair price. I had the money in my pocket. I asked to see the gun. The gun was not zip tied, and the seller handed it to me chamber closed, slide forward. I started to lock the slide back. The seller quickly and loudly asked me not to, stating that this was a new gun, a collector's piece, and that he did not want the action worked. I was dumbfounded. I had just been handed a gun that I did not know whether it was loaded or not. I have always taught others to open an action to check if a gun is loaded prior to handing it to someone else. This courtesy had not been extended to me, and now, I was being told not to do the same before returning the gun to the seller. Was I perturbed? Yes. Did my ears get red? Yes. I carefully laid the gun down on the table, and the seller quickly snatched it up, swept me with the muzzle, and put it back in his glass gun show case. I started to explain, but realized it would not be worth my effort. I did not buy a Colt WWI Repro at that gun show, and he did not sell a Colt WWI Repro at that gun show.

You see, anyone can get tripped up on this stuff. In my case, and in yours, both the potential seller and potential buyer got tripped up. The sellers wanted to sell, and they did not. The buyers wanted to buy and they did not. The one ingredient that was missing in each exchange was understanding what the other man thought was common courtesy.

From Jim Supica, a noted and prominent collector and gun writer, I will add:

Collector Courtesy and Safety - Gun shows, etc (http://www.armchairgunshow.com/gun_safety.htm).

There are special concerns for us who are gun collectors, dealers, and enthusiasts. There are some additional rules in collector situations, whether it be the worlds largest gun show or a friend’s gun room, that are a combination of safety and courtesy. Violation of these rules is the quickest way to prove yourself a lout and gun amateur, and to wear out your welcome:

1. Never handle a gun without asking the owners permission.

2. Never open the mechanism, dry fire, or otherwise manipulate a collectible gun without asking the owners permission.

3. If you are showing your guns, triple check to be sure they are unloaded. It is a good practice to tie the guns with plastic cable ties so they are inoperative, and do not display any loose, unsealed ammunition. Well-run gun shows will require this.

4. Control your children. Strictly enforce the no touch rule.

5. About load checking ... This is a bit of a touchy subject, so please consider it carefully. In a field or range situation, it is an accepted and expected practice to check any gun you receive to be sure whether or not it is loaded. However, in a collector setting such as a gun show, this may not always be possible. On some very valuable mint condition or highly decorated arms, working the mechanism to check the loaded status runs the risk of marring the finish and significantly reducing the dollar value assigned to new in the box, unfired, unturned condition. This makes adherence to basic rules #1 (treat every gun as if loaded), #2 (muzzle control), and #4 (finger off trigger) even more vital. A quality show will require all guns brought into the show by the public to be load checked at the door.

6. Most quality gun shows prohibit loaded firearms, including legal concealed carry. This is not an anti-CCW stance by the promoter, but practical recognition of the fact that negligent discharges have occurred when concealed carry guns have been pulled out at shows to get an appraisal, try a holster, fit grips, show a friend, etc., etc., etc. IF you are at a rare show that permits CCW, DO NOT under any circumstances remove your CCW firearm from it's holster inside the show.

JohnKSa, Your post sounds like some of the gun salesmen I've dealt with... the ones I don't deal with now. If a shop values my business, it shows. If they don't, that shows up real big too. I believe a buyer and seller each have rights. I said that was my opinion. I never said you had to like it.

Any gun salesman who denies me the right to fully function check a weapon that I figure I may have to bet my life on... they are the ones who are rude regardless of how they say it. mustanger98, it seems to me that you will not be "betting your life" on that gun until you own it. Until you own it, it belongs to someone else. You should respect the other person enough to abide by his wishes, regardless of whether you feel the wishes are justified. If you don't like his wishes, take your business elsewhere. There are lots of gun for sale and lots of customers.

If you don't like his wishes, take your business elsewhere. There are lots of gun for sale and lots of customers.

I did and there are. As for respect, that works both ways.

The question, mustanger98, is not whether you should dry fire a pistol prior to buying it, but whether you should ask prior to dry firing. You state that you ask. If the seller says "No, please don't dry fire my gun," I assume you do not dry fire it. According to you, you take your business elsewhere. So what's your point? Do you think they are disrespecting you by asking you not to dry fire their gun?

I think the main issue here, regardless of someone being a customer or not, is that some people don't like their guns dry fired. I, for one, don't dry fire my guns...and I make that point known to all that come into contact with my guns. It's a basic case of courtesy; if it's not yours, don't touch without permission.

Do you think they are disrespecting you by asking you not to dry fire their gun?

XavierBreath, I've had a range of experiences with gun shop sales people who generally acted like they were "holier than thou" towards me... basically, I was faced with a caveman and a used car salesman. The dry fire issue is only part of a bigger picture of disrespect from sales people... people who either thought I was an easy target to pawn off a bum used gun (as opposed to a good one; the tech9 pusher comes to mind) or they didn't know me, didn't want to get to know me, and didn't care if they sold me a gun or not.

The last used gun I bought is a Walther P-38... German surplus. While I had it in my hands, I asked the guy how he felt about dry firing. He said it won't hurt it; go ahead. I bought the gun. We were on the same page. I left that shop on friendly terms.

It is indeed aggravating to have to suffer condescension just to buy a gun. I, myself, refuse to do it. Nobody should have to. I, too, have stopped shopping at places simply because of the way I was treated by sales staff. Because I tend to go for esoteric one of a kind guns and old uncommon stuff, this is as much my loss as the shops I do not shop at.

Every once in a while, as I drive past one particular shop, I will almost stop to see what they have. They always carried a wide selection of used, but top drawer custom guns, high quality used revolvers, and had fair, if a bit high prices. They would haggle on the prices. Then I recall an experience I had about seven years ago in the establishment, and I keep on driving. They are still in business. I am still buying guns. I still see the owner and a couple of his employees at matches. Neither he nor I have suffered, except that we have not reconciled our differences, and I do not extend him my patronage. That is my loss as much as it is his. Perhaps someday I will darken his door again. I just have not felt the desire to do so yet. Pride can be a powerful thing.

I believe a buyer and seller each have rights.Equivocal. Certainly the buyer and seller each have rights--there's no denying that. However buyer/seller rights (in the conventional sense of the use of these terms) are not relevant to this discussion.

You're implying that you have the right to do as you please with his property merely because you are a prospective buyer--that doesn't fall under any conventional use of the term "buyer's rights" that I'm aware of.

I AGREE that a seller SHOULD allow a prospective buyer the chance to fully inspect a gun (to include dryfiring if it won't cause damage).

That does NOT mean that you can pick up any gun you're interested in and do whatever you want with it just because you're a prospective buyer. It also doesn't mean that you have the right to feel offended if a seller denies you the chance to hold/dryfire/operate the gun. It's his gun, he can do what he wants. (If he wants to sell it he'd better let people look at it, but that's not a rudeness issue, it's simply a matter of being a good businessman.)

HOW he chooses to inform you may be rude (it wasn't in this case) but simply informing you of how he wants you to treat HIS PROPERTY or preventing you from doing something with HIS PROPERTY is not rude.I never said you had to like it.I haven't said what I like or don't like. My likes and dislikes have nothing to do with it anyway. This is a matter of common courtesy, it has nothing to do with personal preference.

If something belongs to someone else you ask permission before you mess with it. If they say no you don't mess with it. Simple as that.

My 14 yr. old son is learning about firearms from me and some other people that I trust to help further his education. They are the ones that taught me or have helped me on my 30 some odd year firearm education. He heard what he thought was a logical explanation of why not to dry fire any firearm. He heard it from the person that taught me about firearms way back in the 60's. I learned the same way and followed that practice for years, but I have since changed my habits.
Whenever my son hands me one of his firearms he says very clearly " Dad, don't dry fire my gun please." So I don't dry fire his gun. Do I mind? Not a bit.
I have an old, family heirloom revolver that he will own one day. He knows that I dry fire that revolver. He will dry fire that revolver double action to test his hand strength. Do I mind? Not a bit.

So, some people don't like their firearms dry fired. Don't dry fire them. There are other ways to tell if the trigger is any good.

Some people don't mind if you dry fire their firearms. Ask first and the dry fire. But not excessively, OK?

"I've never been told "No, don't dry fire," "

The closest I've come is the day I spotted a Colt WWI Repro that hadn't been on the shelf long enough to get a price tag. They knew I was a serious buyer (cash for guns, 28 ga., etc.) and the answer about dry firing was, "Are you going to buy it?" The slide had only been racked far enough back to check the chamber prior to putting it on the shelf.

The trigger was great and I bought the gun.

____________

"do you need signs in place to tell you to participate in other practices of common courtesy?"

You mean everybody doesn't spit on the floor unless the sign says not to?

John