[Timthinker]

Recently, I decided to resume blackpowder shooting after a lengthy absence. Truthfully, I have not fired a BP gun since 9/11, and I am wondering what sort of restrictions have been placed on its sale since then. Perhaps more importantly, I am hearing rumors about very restrictive regulations on blackpowder and its substitutes lately. Any information about this trend would be welcomed since I once loved this sport and hope to participate in it again very soon. Thanks.


Timthinker

[alucard0822]

so far all is well in MD, just picked up a Walker and a pound of 777, cash and carry, no paperwork other than signing the credit slip

[oneshooter]

It will vary in each state. Here in Texas you can mail order with delivery to your front door. Other states treat them the same as modern firearms.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[arcticap]

I am hearing rumors about very restrictive regulations on blackpowder and its substitutes lately. Any information about this trend would be welcomed since I once loved this sport and hope to participate in it again very soon. Thanks.


So many Congressmen complained about the proposed regulations and their effect on small business that the proposed OSHA BP regulations were retracted by the Dept. of Labor.
A new set of proposals will probably be resubmitted but will reportedly not include black powder, or at least not negatively affect it.
So there doesn't seen to be any need for BP shooters to worry. :)

[Timthinker]

Arcticap, this is welcomed news. As I stated earlier, I have been wanting to return to BP shooting lately, but those rumors concerned me. Now I can concentrate on purchasing a new muzzleloading rifle. Thanks much.


Timthinker

[arcticap]

Here's announcements about it:


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=289411


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=289579

[Cap n Ball]

'A new set of proposals will probably be resubmitted'

With the current idiots in congress I'm not too concerned they will do much of anything except posture and blather.

[Gunfixr]

I don't know about your states rules, but federally, since it is a classed explosive, they do monitor sales. That said, buying it is generally not restricted, but to sell it, a dealer must have a special license and store it a certain way, plus the insurance is much higher. I order mine over the internet from www.powderinc.com and it comes UPS to my door. I ordered a case (25 lbs.) several months ago and with shipping and Hazmat fee it came to a little over $12 a pound. You can mix and match granulations, and order less than a case, but it is more expensive in smaller quantities. All you have to do is fax them a copy of your drivers license (only the first time). According to them, you are good for about 50 or so pounds a year before anybody raises any red flags. I'm ordering 25 pounds every couple of years.

[Timthinker]

I feel relieved that those rumors are "hot air". Now, I can concentrate on selecting a new BP rifle without having any lingering doubts about the availability of powder or primers. And since I live near a popular outdoor range, all my concerns, at least about BP, have disappeared. Thanks once again for your help.


Timthinker

[Omnivore]

If you plan to hunt with it, be sure to check your state hunting rules.

Here in Idaho, Fish and Game recently banned the use of any in-line action or anything that takes 209 (shot shell) primers. This being a major big-game hunting destination, that's a big deal. It's now side-hammers only, using musket caps or smaller, no propellant pellets, and no sabots. Primitive weapon now means primitave weapon, for all blackpowder hunting in Idaho.

That eliminates most anything produced for the blackpowder hunting market recently. Manufacturers, are you listening?

[dstorm1911]

Omnivore, I'm really glad to hear that bout Idaho...... now if Arizona would do the same.... I gave up bowhunting cause the seasons are shared and all the yahoos out there these days with their modern bolt guns made up to pass as primitive weapons it just wasn't safe to be fully camoed and not risk gettin shot etc...

No blaze orange required during "primitive weapons" season here

It got so bad I started carryin an 1858 Remmy so I could shoot back and get the idiots attention as a bow just doesn't have the same effect to get a take his "inline" out once a year to hunt type idiots....... but the boom and smoke from that Remmy does the job nicley I had one guy fire 4!! Sabots at my position several years ago!! Yea he hadda reload 3 times before he figured out it wasn't a deer way out there at almost 200 yards!!!

I build modern battle rifles for a living, I use BP to get away from the modern stuff the last thing I want to see on the desert horizon is the sun reflecting off a 6-24x50 scope mounted on a Remington 700 just cause they turned it into a muzzle loader!

not gonna say sorry for those who don't agree, to me primitive means just that PRIMITIVE

[Gunfixr]

Yeah, I ain't much for those inlines, either. To me, if it doesn't have a sidelock on it, with either a nipple or a frizzen, it's not a muzzle loader. Primitive doesn't mean scoped shooting jacketed bullets. It's just a chance for all those who can't hack a real muzzle loader to go during primitive season. At least that's my opinion.

[ED21]

Yeah, I ain't much for those inlines, either. To me, if it doesn't have a sidelock on it, with either a nipple or a frizzen, it's not a muzzle loader. Primitive doesn't mean scoped shooting jacketed bullets. It's just a chance for all those who can't hack a real muzzle loader to go during primitive season. At least that's my opinion.

AMEN

[Mark whiz]

The biggest restriction on getting REAL black powder comes from the Insurance Companies, not from the Gov't right now. Since true black is considered an explosive, the insurance rates for retailers to keep much of it on-hand are astronomical - so most do not even mess with it anymore and just sell the replica powders which are "flammables" like centerfire smokeless powders.

[oneshooter]

Be carefull Gunfixr, I have said the same thing and got royaly FLAMED for it.
That being said, ROCKLOCKS RULE!!!!!

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[Omnivore]

Besides: I don't see how a side hammer or a full-caliber projectile makes a rifle inherently any less effective. If you want a .45 bullet, use a .45 bore. If you know your weapon, you make it "talk" just fine whether the lock time is one or two milliseconds one way or the other.

[Timthinker]

Some of our members correctly note that BP restrictions extend beyond the purchase of this propellant and also apply to hunting. I was concerned about the former point when I began this thread, but I am glad others brought up this issue as well. Insightful information like this is why I turn to THR for advice.


Timthinker

[alsaqr]

It is true that insurance companies do adversly effect the sale of black powder. Most city dealers have to meet local fire code and NFPA 495. NFPA 495 is entitled: "Manufacture, Transportation, Storage, and Use of Explosive Materials (2006 Edition)."

Some cities use the "International Fire Code."

[Gunfixr]

I suppose those who would be doing the flaming would be the ones using the inlines. I think they should be outlawed for hunting, and from what I've seen, some jurisdictions agree. Primitive means primitive, not telescopic sights and shotgun primers with saboted jacketed bullets. The primitive weapons are no less effective at taking game, they simply require more to master their use.

[J.T. Gerrity]

Had a colleague at work once tell me he was interested in trying out BP hunting so as to extend his hunting season. I brought in a Cabela's catalog for him to look at, but he was only interested in the in-lines. After some discussion, it turned out that he thought the cap-lock and rock-lock rifles in the magazine were 100+ year-old originals that would most likely blow up in his face! I told him that the rifles were new-made reproductions of the old guns using modern steels and manufacturing processes, so that they were just as safe as any modern gun, but I don't think I ever really convinced him; his limited imagination would not allow him to grasp the idea that anyone would actually reproduce the old guns, let alone use them! :banghead: He finally settled on a disk rifle with telescopic sights, which (it turned out) he could not use as Colorado at that time did not allow disk rifles during BP season! He should have gone for the Lyman Great Plains rifle that I recommended, but some people just have to put the "I" in Idiot! In the end, my only (unvoiced) suggestion to him was that he should go home, look at himself in the mirror, and repeat the phrase "Dumb As A Post" until he convinced himself!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[O.S.O.K.]

Gunfixr, I'm sure you didn't mean to say the in-lines should be be outlawed for hunting - right? You were saying that they shouldn't qualify as a primitive weapon, not outlawed completely. If not, then I have to say that I totally disagree with you.

I think people should be able to hunt with what they want within bounds - no howitzers for example :what: For another example, if a guy want's to hunt during "gun" season with an AK-47 and uses soft-nosed bullets, then I think he should be able to do that. It's a common practice in Texas to hunt hogs with AK's and SKS's due to the fact that hogs are a varmint that cause a lot of damage and guys want to be able to kill multiple hogs when they see em.

I personally wouldn't care if a particular "primitive" weapon season prohibited in-lines as I have 4 side locks to shoot in addition to my TC Omega.

I'd also have to say that states that have a whitetail overpopulation problem shouldn't resistrict the hunter's choice. For example, Mississippi changed the reg.s for primitive season to allow single shot rifles of over a certain bore size - NEF 45-70 for example. That's because the harvest rates were too low! And you can take one deer a DAY in Mississippi.

It's all relative.

Oh, and Timthinker: put some blaze orange on for cryin out loud :what: Or at least take some with you and place above your position - if it's not moving, it won't spook the game - I know, I have had deer look straight at me with a loud blaze orange vest on and not alarm because I was dead still. I did spray it down with UV killer though.

[oneshooter]

Gunfxer, Here is the thread that I was FLAMED on.:D

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=217984

I won't believe that inlines should be BANNED entirely. The should not be allowed during a Black Powder/muzzel loading season.


Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[Gunfixr]

No, I'm not saying that they should be banned entirely, just banned from primitive season. While I wouldn't hunt with one, it is a rifle, and there are other rifles I wouldn't hunt with that folks hunt with every year. Just like there are shotguns I wouldn't touch that others swear by. Inlines, disc rifles and these other newfangled BP rifles are not primitive by any stretch of the imagination. Primitive season is to give hunters who choose to use a more primitive firearm to hunt game, and while no less effective, would be at a disadvantage to hunters using modern scoped rifles shooting modern ammunition. It takes a more disciplined class of shooter for primitive arms hunting. I'm not saying hunters aren't disciplined, just that primitive hunters take a slightly different approach that requires slightly different skills. While equipment won't make up for ability completely, I have seen new shooters who couldn't hit with open sights that could do seemingly impressive things with a scoped, accurized rifle. It was largely the equipment. Too many people who couldn't hunt primitive season because they admittedly couldn't deal with a sidelock rifle are now hunting with inlines. This fact only solidifies my point.

[kartoffel]

I remember when muzzleloader season in Pennsylvania was flint-only, roundball-only. I've since moved out of state, but rumor has it they have caved into the manufacturers and bubbas and now permit conical bullets and percussion caps.

One of nicest things about the *OLD* PA muzzleloader season was that you could hunt on public lands in peace without hundreds of other people out there beating the bushes. The neon orange requirements were relaxed, so you could go out in buckskins if you felt like it. Finally, the short January season almost always guaranteed a hunt with snow on the ground--something the fall hunters rarely get to enjoy.

I have no beef with modern inline muzzleloaders. Just keep 'em in the modern hunting season along with modern centerfire rifles.

[Gaucho Gringo]

I don't believe inline should be outlawed, they just shouldn't be allowed to shoot in primitive seasons. They are a weapon of modern design and if people want to shoot them them that is fine in modern hunts, not primitive. Oregon regulations are very restrictive on this and I haven't heard too many people complaining about it except the ones who don't live here. I was born here and lived all my life here.

[Misfire99]

It got so bad I started carryin an 1858 Remmy so I could shoot back and get the idiots attention as a bow just doesn't have the same effect to get a take his "inline" out once a year to hunt type idiots....... but the boom and smoke from that Remmy does the job nicley I had one guy fire 4!! Sabots at my position several years ago!! Yea he hadda reload 3 times before he figured out it wasn't a deer way out there at almost 200 yards!!!

This is why they sell camo toilet paper. You kept flashing that "white tail" at him so he kept shooting.

[mykeal]

Why don't we just use stone axes in primitive season? Why allow any firearms or bows at all? After all, they aren't really 'primitive' weapons either.

I know, I'm playing word games. The latest electronic ignition in-line rifles are certainly pushing the limits of the definition of muzzleloader. Add a scope and the only thing left is the fact that they don't have a magazine - they still have to be loaded one round at a time. But wait, isn't that the basic thesis behind the muzzleloader season - one shot for a clean kill?

We muzzleloaders tend to think of ourselves as 'better' hunters. We intentionally hunt with weapons that have a disadvantage compared to 'modern' guns - you get one shot, there's no backup. Now, there's really no backup in a Winchester Model 70 30.06 either, even with 5 rounds in the magazine. If you miss with the first, that deer is going away and you should not be taking that second shot at a moving target. If you missed with the first, you are certainly going to miss with the second. But there is something about not even having a second shot that make us feel a little superior. So we take greater care, I think, with that shot; we shoot closer, we do a more careful job of camouflage, of tracking and stalking; we just exercise the hunting skills a little better. And some of us carry a backup (black powder) weapon.

And we have a view (most everyone here who's dissed the in-lines has expressed it) of the in-line and non-muzzleloader hunter as being less skilled. So keep him/her out of our woods while we are there. If he/she isn't using a stone axe, oops, I mean, a flintlock, or is it a caplock, he/she shouldn't be out in primitive, oops, I mean muzzleloader, season.

We are all entitled to our opinions.

[kartoffel]

mykeal, maybe the primitive hunters just see inlines as a loophole or cheat for people to get into primitive season without actually having to use authentic equipment.

A big part of the charm of primitive hunting seasons is the smaller number of hunters and different times of year. Yes, I'll admit that it's elitist not to want bubba out tearing up the woods in his 4x4 during primitive season. That's exactly the point, though.

[AntiqueCollector]

"muzzleloading" doesn't necessarily mean "primitive." Some states have "primitive" seasons with regulations that prohibit more modern weapons, others simply "muzzleloading" which doesn't restrict more modern weapons as long as they are "muzzleloading." I don't think people should get so concerned over what someone else uses as long as they aren't stopping you from using what you want to use...I honestly don't believe, anyways, that an inline offers any real advantages over a sidelock percussion gun, making any complaining a non-argument. I can fire a percussion sidelock very reliably with no noticeable delay, accurately, and I can reload relatively quick, quicker in fact that most inlines as there's no bolt or other action to open to stick a primer in, just raise the hammer to half cock and stick the cap on...and I can make paper cartridges to make reloading quicker with balls or normal conicals, I don't think a sabot lends itself too well to making paper cartridges (besides the fact I despise them anyways). And a tight fitting cap keeps water out of the nipple and powder anyways, and doesn't fall off, if it's raining, so I don't think there is really an advantage to an inline design in this way. Obviously a flintlock is another matter but in terms of percussion sidelocks versus inlines, I don't see any real advantages in the inlines that would give any reason for complaining.

[mykeal]

maybe the primitive hunters just see inlines as a loophole or cheat for people to get into primitive season without actually having to use authentic equipment

If the idea is to use just "authentic" equipment, then let's just use AUTHENTIC equipment: stone axes, or perhaps original flintlocks (no reproductions or replicas allowed).

Yes, I'll admit that it's elitist not to want bubba out tearing up the woods in his 4x4 during primitive season. That's exactly the point, though.

I rather think that the idea is to create a "special" season where "less skilled" hunters are not allowed. But since we can't agree on how to discriminate based on "skill" we do it based on equipment, allowing ourselves to believe the lie that unskilled hunters won't be using "primitive" equipment. Well, let me burst that bubble. The bubbas buy and use caplocks, too. And compound bows with carbon fibre arrows tipped with $10 razor blades.

[silverlance]

the primitive forms of hunting i would personally like to engage in are far too dangerous to be allowed. by this i mean making deadfalls, snares, and dynamite sticks over a lake. now get this straight - even if i got the opportunity to do it without ever getting caught, i wouldn't, since it is destructive and dangerous. but i would like to do it.

point is, man until very recently hunted to get food, and would do it the most effective way possible. now, since we (meaning americans) have food and such, we hunt for sport (and sometimes still for food, as in alaska and other places where folks are on leaner times).

since it is a sport, sports have rules. and the rules should be made so that the game is fair.

[Misfire99]

When I was a young buck I wanted to hunt bear with a spear. I think it was a good thing that I never got the chance.

[kartoffel]

If it's a "modern" muzzleloading season (or a regular centerfire season for that matter) use whatever you want.

If it's a primitive season, though, I'd rather leave the percussion caps and conicals at home. If that's not your cup of tea, go out on the first day of buck season just like any other hunter. You'll still get yer deer :)

The problem is, that until inline muzzleloaders swept the market, most states didn't distinguish between "muzzleloader" and "primitive". Thus, the inline percussion laser cannon users were effectively exploiting a loophole in an outdated hunting regulation.

[arcticap]

Muzzle loading here in New England used to be one of the first deer seasons in early fall, but it was a dying sport. Meanwhile the deer populations exploded and bow season became way more lengthy & popular.
Muzzle loading season was pushed last into late December and inlines really saved the entire sport from extinction. Most deer have already been harvested by then, so BP hunters are at a disadvantage. Inlines helped to recruit more BP hunters. So what's the real difference between an inline and a sidelock if both have a fast twist? A traditional Whitworth sidelock has amazing accuracy, so modern inlines aren't even as good as they were.
We don't even have a public land rifle season here, but only shotgun or muzzle loader deer seasons.
If hunters really want to be primitive like they claim, then maybe they should shoot smoothbores like Massachussetts originally instituted.
Even flintlocks can have fast twist rifled barrels, and a rifled barrel is a rifled barrel. A modern smoothbore shotgun has less range than just about any BP gun with a rifled barrel. So should smoothbore shotguns be allowed during BP seasons? Of course not, shotguns are used in shotgun season and muzzle loaders are used in muzzle loading season.
Since people here are mostly woods hunters, it doesn't matter what kind of gun they shoot when most shots are taken at ~50 yards anyway. They all require just about the same amount of skill.
Sidelocks can have lighter target triggers and longer barrels for better long range performance to help offset almost any claimed disadvantage versus an inline if the hunter chooses to do so. So if someone isn't shooting a smoothbore than they're not shooting with a primitive barrel IMHO. If it has a rifled barrel than it could just as well be a Whitworth.