Indiana: New Legislation


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kludge
July 19, 2007, 08:26 PM
OK, here's the deal... sorry if this gets long... I wrote to Gov. Daniels, and I got the response down below. So... let's discuss here what we should do, who we should contact (besides our own reps of course), and what we should propose as legislation (or if we should leave the writing to someone else).

The e-mail was in regard to the law that prohibits possession of a hangun outside your own property or place of business, except if:

you're a "special" person
you have a license
you just bought it, or are taking it for repairs
you are moving


Since I have become a NRA Certified Pistol Instructor, it has hit me that no one who would like to take a pistol class can bring their own pistol to class, unless they have a permit.

My comments to the Gov. were that many people own and purchase handguns to keep at home, but nowhere in the law are they allowed to go get training on how to be safe and properly use their gun, and that allowing this would promote safety in our communities.

But the way the law is written, the way I read it anyway, this privelege is given to minors (who can't get a handgun license) and the adults who take them to the training/range. ??????

IC 35-47-2.5-14
Providing handgun to ineligible purchaser; exemptions
35-47-2.5-14 Sec. 14. (a) This section does not apply to a person who provides a handgun to the following:
(1) A child who is attending a hunters safety course or a firearms safety course or an adult who is supervising the child during the course.
(2) A child engaging in practice in using a firearm for target shooting at an established range or in an area where the discharge of a firearm is not prohibited or is supervised by:
(A) a qualified firearms instructor; or
(B) an adult who is supervising the child while the child is at the range.
(3) A child engaging in an organized competition involving the use of a firearm or participating in or practicing for a performance by an organized group under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code that uses firearms as a part of a performance or an adult who is involved in the competition or performance.
(4) A child who is hunting or trapping under a valid license

issued to the child under IC 14-22.
(5) A child who is traveling with an unloaded firearm to or from an activity described in this section.
(6) A child who:
(A) is on real property that is under the control of the child's parent, an adult family member of the child, or the child's legal guardian; and
(B) has permission from the child's parent or legal guardian to possess a firearm.
(b) A person who purchases a handgun with the intent to:
(1) resell or otherwise provide the handgun to another person who the person knows or has reason to believe is ineligible for any reason to purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a handgun; or
(2) transport the handgun out of the state to be resold or otherwise provided to another person who the transferor knows is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive a firearm;
commits a Class D felony.
(c) If the violation of this section involves a transfer of more than one (1) handgun, the offense is a Class C felony.

Perhaps we should amend it to read:

IC 35-47-2.5-14
Providing handgun to ineligible purchaser; exemptions
35-47-2.5-14 Sec. 14. (a) This section does not apply to a person who provides a handgun to the following:
(1) A child or adult who is attending a hunters safety course or a firearms safety course or an adult who is supervising the child during the course.
(2) A child engaging in practice in using a firearm for target shooting at an established range or in an area where the discharge of a firearm is not prohibited or is supervised by:
(A) a qualified firearms instructor; or
(B) an adult who is supervising the child while the child is at the range.
(3) A child engaging in an organized competition involving the use of a firearm or participating in or practicing for a performance by an organized group under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code that uses firearms as a part of a performance or an adult who is involved in the competition or performance.
(4) A child who is hunting or trapping under a valid license

issued to the child under IC 14-22.
(5) A child or adult who is traveling with an unloaded firearm to or from an activity described in this section.
(6) A child who:
(A) is on real property that is under the control of the child's parent, an adult family member of the child, or the child's legal guardian; and
(B) has permission from the child's parent or legal guardian to possess a firearm.
(b) A person who purchases a handgun with the intent to:
(1) resell or otherwise provide the handgun to another person who the person knows or has reason to believe is ineligible for any reason to purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a handgun; or
(2) transport the handgun out of the state to be resold or otherwise provided to another person who the transferor knows is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive a firearm;
commits a Class D felony.
(c) If the violation of this section involves a transfer of more than one (1) handgun, the offense is a Class C felony.


Dear Mr. Kludge:

Thank you for your e-mail to Governor Daniels regarding the transport of handguns. He appreciates the time you took to share your comments and has asked me to respond on his behalf.

Your request would require a change in legislation. Therefore, you may contact your local representative with your suggestions.

Please do not hesitate to contact Governor Daniels or the State Police with future questions or concerns.

Sincerely,
Edith Hendricks
Governor's Liaison for the Indiana State Police

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El Tejon
July 19, 2007, 09:17 PM
Yes, I've been telling anyone who would listen that that is exactly right. So far, just like many other of my brilliant ideas, I have been ignored.

We keep trying.:)

ServiceSoon
July 19, 2007, 09:46 PM
To me the purpose of this law can be only classified as a malum prohibitum law and provides no direct "crime fighting" powers. Why do we need more laws for something that in and of itself is not a crime?

kludge
July 19, 2007, 09:47 PM
Pehaps this:

IC 35-47-2-2
Excepted persons
35-47-2-2 Sec. 2. Section 1 of this chapter does not apply to:
(1-8) "special people"
(9) employees of express companies when engaged in company business;
(10) any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms or the agent or representative of any such person having in his possession, using, or carrying a handgun in the usual or ordinary course of that business; or
(11) any person while carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his dwelling or fixed place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his dwelling or fixed place of business, or in moving from one dwelling or business to another.
(12) a person who is attending a hunters safety course or a firearms safety course or traveling with a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper to or from such a course.

jdm1986
July 19, 2007, 09:50 PM
I was under the impression that you cannot transport a handgun in Indiana w/o a permit, but someone said I misinterpreted it.

I don't know who's right, but where'd you find this? I have a hard time finding Indiana's gun laws, and the .pdf that opens from in.gov is the same that is from packing.org (which is dated in '05; has me somewhat worried about the validity of the dated files).

I agree with you, however. I'm all ears on what we should do.

I knew I could buy the gun beforehand, but I waited to get the revolver I had my eye on until the permit came in the mail, because I knew (or, incorrectly read the law) that I couldn't take it anywhere after taking it home without a permit. Adults should definitely have the right to practice with a gun while waiting for - or even while considering applying for - their permit.

Even if they don't want a permit, just need a handgun for home/business, it's irresponsible to give them no option to train, assuming they don't have land to practice at that house/business.

El Tejon
July 19, 2007, 10:03 PM
jdm, the gun laws on in Article 47 of Title 35.

Title-Article-Chapter-Section (TACS)

kludge
July 19, 2007, 11:22 PM
I waited to get the revolver I had my eye on until the permit came in the mail, because I knew (or, incorrectly read the law) that I couldn't take it anywhere after taking it home without a permit.

that's correct.

Even if they don't want a permit, just need a handgun for home/business, it's irresponsible to give them no option to train, assuming they don't have land to practice at that house/business.


That's why I started this thread.

There is a "qualified" license which is for "hunting and target practice," but there are, I believe, people who don't even want that, they just want to learn how to use the gun they already have, or just bought, and that's it.

Right now, that is the only option. Go to the police station, get fingerprinted, pay a fee, background check, wait...

And people will say, "I just want to take a stupid class. Forget it, why bother?"

http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/

jdm1986
July 19, 2007, 11:57 PM
That's why I started this thread.

Oh, I fully understand that. I didn't mean it in any other way; I totally agree with your original post.

eyebrows
July 20, 2007, 12:41 AM
This is what pushed me to obtain my lifetime CCW.

Until early this year I always thought unloaded and locked was OK without a permit. IMO its compltly unreasonable to restrict the private transport of a unloaded and locked firearm.
Lucky for me I discovered the law on my own, not by some cop busting me for a truckfull of unloaded and locked handguns.

damien
July 20, 2007, 01:09 AM
Clearly this law is not being enforced.

El Tejon
July 20, 2007, 08:51 AM
damien, correct, enforcement is probably just above 0%. However, it just take once to make one's life miserable.

kludge
July 20, 2007, 09:41 AM
That's why I started this thread.

Oh, I fully understand that. I didn't mean it in any other way; I totally agree with your original post.


jdm, Sorry if my tone sounded critical. It wasn't meant to be. I was just venting last night because of the non-response from the governors office.

kludge
July 20, 2007, 09:42 AM
So...

Who is the right person to contact to introduce this type of legislation?

El Tejon
July 23, 2007, 10:10 AM
Nugent is your best bet. He sponsored our lifetime carry license.

kludge
December 3, 2007, 01:12 PM
Please critique my letter:

Dear Senator ________:

My purpose in writing is to suggest a bill that provides an exception in IC 35-47-2-2 that would allow a person to transport a handgun in order to obtain training in the safe, proper, and responsible use and storage of firearms. To do so now would be to commit a misdemeanor or felony (2nd offense).

The new wording for IC 35-47-2-2 might be as follows (additions in bold text):

IC 35-47-2-2
Excepted persons
35-47-2-2 Sec. 2. Section 1 of this chapter does not apply to:

(11) any person while carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his dwelling or fixed place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his dwelling or fixed place of business, or in moving from one dwelling or business to another, or for the purpose of attending a hunters safety course or a firearms safety course.
Firearms safety is a very important topic for me and within the past few years I have decided to become active at the local level. I am the current president of the Danville Conservation Club and have become an NRA Certified Instructor. I do not profit from this activity.

I understand the reasoning that requires a handgun license for shooting sports, hunting, or personal protection outside the home, however many (probably most) people who buy or own handguns have no desire to apply for a license to carry a handgun outside their homes, and there is no allowance in the law for such a person to come to the Club for a safety course and learning how to use their own handgun safely.

If people know how to safely use and store their firearms, I believe that this will foster safer communities.

Sincerely,

Kludge

kludge
December 7, 2007, 11:27 AM
update...

E-mails were send followed up by snail mail... a version of what I posted above.

Sen. Nugent's assistant has already corresponded with me by e-mail, saying that the Senator was out of town, but he would make sure that he got my e-mail, and would get back to me next week.

Nothing from my own reps yet, not even an auto-reply.

kludge
February 1, 2008, 02:41 PM
update... my wife just called... I got a letter in the mail... I'll spare you all the details... here is the result of my letter writing:

http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2008/IN/IN0183.1.html


SENATE BILL No. 183
_____

DIGEST OF INTRODUCED BILL

Citations Affected: IC 35-47-2-2.

Synopsis: Carrying a handgun without a license. Allows a person to carry a handgun without a license while: (1) carrying the handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper when traveling between the person's dwelling or fixed place of business and a firearms training or safety course or a hunter education or safety course; or (2) attending a firearms training or safety course or a hunter education or safety course.


Effective: July 1, 2008.

<snip>

SECTION 1. IC 35-47-2-2 IS AMENDED TO READ AS FOLLOWS [EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2008]: Sec. 2. Section 1 of this chapter does not apply to:

<snip>

(11) any person while carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper:
(A) from the place of purchase to /// the person's dwelling or fixed place of business; or
(B) to a place of repair or back to /// the person's dwelling or fixed place of business; or
(C) in moving from one (1) dwelling or business to another; or
(12) a person while:
(A) carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper when traveling between the person's dwelling or fixed place of business and:
(i) a firearms training or safety course; or
(ii) a hunter education or safety course; or
(B) attending:
(i) a firearms training or safety course; or
(ii) a hunter education or safety course.

:what:

:D

ServiceSoon
February 1, 2008, 08:40 PM
Democracy works!

vis--vis
February 1, 2008, 09:21 PM
That's exciting

kludge
February 2, 2008, 02:58 AM
posted by "ElTejon"
damien, correct, enforcement is probably just above 0%. However, it just take once to make one's life miserable.


Agreed.

In the Fiscal Impact Statement for the bill I found this:

Background- For FY 2007, there were 14 commitments to a DOC facility for an IC 35-47-2-1 carry permit
violation, of which 13 commitments were for a Class C felony. Although unlikely, it is unknown if any of
these commitments resulted from an arrest for transporting a handgun (without a carry permit) to a training
course.

And since 13 of 14 were felony convictions, I would agree that it is unlikely that they were going to a training course. (To qualify for a felony conviction you have to be a prior felon, or have a prior conviction under the section)

Siderite
April 1, 2008, 12:20 PM
I was just checking up on this and noticed that nothing has happened for some time:
Last action
01/08/2008 S First reading: referred to Committee on Corrections, Criminal, and Civil Matters
http://www.in.gov/apps/lsa/session/billwatch/billinfo?year=2008&request=getActions&doctype=SB&docno=0183

I checked the committee members list (http://www.in.gov/apps/lsa/session/billwatch/billinfo?year=2008&request=getCommittee&committee_name=Corrections%2C+Criminal%2C+and+Civil+Matters&chamber=S) and my state senator isn't on the list.

So what can be done while it is in committee?

Is it more effective to write my state senator or to members of the committee?

Also, not to sidetrack the thread, but I noticed under the committee listing, SB 0356 "Possession of handguns on public property." , which seems to be aimed at mandating the right to carry at public colleges. Anyone know what the status "Third reading: failed for lack of constitutional majority; Roll Call 176: Yeas 25 and Nays 23" means?

There's also "SB 0158 -- Possession of firearms at state universities." which seems to have the same status as kludge's.

kludge
April 1, 2008, 02:10 PM
Since the session is over, I can only assume that the bills are dead...

Mine (SB0183) never got past the first reading, and my state senator is resigning due to his job taking a higher priority. I'll be writing him a thank you and well wishes, and start over again next fall.

Prometheus
April 8, 2008, 07:42 PM
This entire thing is retarded.

We must push for VERMONT STYLE CARRY LAWS!

This nonsense about needing licenses to defend ourselves and special exemptions to transport firearms... it's asinine.

No licenses, no permits, no B.S.

Lets move into the 21st century and get with the rest of the states who realize that permits and licenses do nothing to stop crime and only punish and prohibit law abiding citizens.

Bruenor
May 8, 2008, 05:42 PM
Kludge,

I live in the Pendleton area, and would be willing to help you with the passage of this bill next year. In Spring 2005, for my last semester in college, I worked as an intern in the Senate for two Republican Senators, so I know a little bit about how the legislative process works.

Since this never got out of the committee, my first question would be "Why?" Were there too many bills and too little time, or was there an effort to stop the bill from ever getting a vote? From the Senate website, between the Senate and the House bills, I counted over 70 bills that the committee had to hear. That's a lot of bills for the committee to hear in a short session.

Now, the next step is deciding what we can do to raise the awareness of this bill. We need to contact every gun club, gun shop, and shooting range in the state and let them know about the importance of this bill. This will serve two purposes. First, we will be creating an "army" of like-minded individuals who we can draw upon to write letters to their representatives, sign petitions, and make phone calls. Second, we are also creating lines of communication between the scattered groups of gun-owners in the state, which will make it easier to get assistance with future bills as well.

In the letter writing, we need to make sure to send as many letters as possible to the Senators serving on the committee, especially the chairman, Senator Brent Steele of Bedford Indiana (public record, so I feel that I can mention the name here). They will be the ones who determine if this bill ever gets a floor vote.

Now, since we are serious about getting this bill passed, we need to find co-sponsors in the Senate to sign onto the bill, including some Democrats. The Republicans have the majority in the Senate, but it never hurts to have some from the other side with you as well. This will also help us in the House, which I will discuss later. Believe it or not, many of the Democrats in the Indiana Senate have reasonable views on gun ownership. These are the people that we want on our side.

The other reason to have Democrats on our side is that it will help when the bill gets over to the House side. Currently, the Democrats are in control of the House, which will make things more difficult. But, if we have Senate Democrats on our side, it may help.

I have move thoughts and ideas on this than I can say in this post, so send me a private message if you want to work together on this bill for next year.

El Tejon
May 8, 2008, 06:03 PM
This entire thing is retarded.

We must push for VERMONT STYLE CARRY LAWS!

This nonsense about needing licenses to defend ourselves and special exemptions to transport firearms... it's asinine.

No licenses, no permits, no B.S.

Lets move into the 21st century and get with the rest of the states who realize that permits and licenses do nothing to stop crime and only punish and prohibit law abiding citizens.


Yes, but my work for Rex Early in '96 ended in defeat. Need to get more people involved!:)

RaspberrySurprise
May 8, 2008, 06:37 PM
Now is it me or would it still be illegal to take your pistol to the range for practice unless it was part of a safety or training course?

mrmeval
May 8, 2008, 07:30 PM
They need to remove any restriction for carrying an unloaded handgun to and from a range, business or home.

This sounds like it's meant to be used against someone when they can't bust them for something else.

kludge
May 9, 2008, 04:57 PM
While I agree with your first statement, I think it's more of an unintended consequence of the "qualified" and "unlimited" license scheme that is in place.

If we were to propose a law completely removing the restrction of unloaded transport, they would just point to the "shall issue" nature of the "qualified" permit and say that people who want to go shooting can get a permit with very little hassle... even less now with lifetime licenses available.

This new proposal is for people who don't shoot, don't carry, and never will, but are possibly felons if they just want to learn how to use their gun safely.

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