Right to carry in Maryland


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twenty711
July 20, 2007, 08:39 PM
I know the odds are against us. But I would really like to have right to carry in Maryland. Maybe we can organize an effort to accomplish this. At the least if we push for this maybe we will be less likely to have more rights taken away.

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glassman
July 20, 2007, 08:48 PM
My wife's family lives on the Eastern Shore around St Michaels and Easton. I would like to take a few pistols with me so my brother in law and I can go shooting when we visit. I've heard Maryland is a tough state as far as guns are concerned. What's the best way to travel through that state with guns and ammo?

jpk1md
July 21, 2007, 12:50 AM
Glassman....in a nutshell DON'T....you can travel THROUGH the state according to Fed Law but you cannot legally bring any Regulated Firearm (Pistols or SCAW's) into the state unless it is for an organized competition IIRC.

There is NO NR CCW in this state...its virtually impossible to get a Resident CCW without having official documentation of 3 assualts/threats or if you can prove that you regularly carry a lot of cash as part of your job.

You cannot legally transport your handgun anywhere except from Legal Residence to Range or Legal Residence to Gunshop/Smith....if you stop to piss/get coffee you can be charged with a serious misdemeanor.

We continue to work to improve the laws and if you guys want to help out please visit the following:

http://www.marylandshallissue.org/

http://www.mdshooters.com

glassman
July 21, 2007, 09:03 AM
I don't want to carry. I just want to be able to go to a range and do some recreational shooting. If I put locks on all the guns and ammo boxes and then lock them in the trunk of my car, am I still breaking the law?? :confused: If so, I guess I'll just have to leave the guns at home and settle for sailing and drinking beer. Oh, what a shame!! :rolleyes:

Sonora Rebel
July 21, 2007, 10:22 AM
The Democratik Peoples Republik of Nary-a-Land is not gun friendly. Oddly enuff... bordered by two 'open carry' states (VA & PA) but unfortunately still tied by it's umbilical to Washington DC which was retrofitted at the beginning of the War of Northern Aggression. The Nary-a-Land Stattes Polizie carry out their 'orders' w/o question. Pure Socialism in action. Leave your weapons home. They LOVE stoppin' out of state vehicles. I still have friends there... None of them happy.

kingpin008
July 21, 2007, 12:24 PM
Glassman - Indeed you are. Chances are, unless they have a reason to pull you over anyway there'd be nobody the wiser, but it's not worth it.

Welcome to Maryland, huh?


The Nary-a-Land Stattes Polizie carry out their 'orders' w/o question. Pure Socialism in action.

Not true. Sure, we have some "crusaders" on the police force here, but by no means are they all chomping at the bit to "carry out orders without question". Just like any other area, some are more understanding of the situations that dumb laws put good people in, while some crave the respect of their "authority". The problem, as I see it - is the laws they're given to enforce. THEY'RE the issue.

glassman
July 21, 2007, 12:40 PM
KINGPIN..Thanks for the heads up. I heard that Maryland was hard but that's rediculous. Guess I'll have to settle for sailing and beer when we go to visit. My wife and I were thinking about retirement close to her family but if the gun laws are that harsh, maybe we'll stay right here in Pa.

raginrednek
July 21, 2007, 01:24 PM
i was working as a jeweler, carrying anywhere from 25k to 75k worth of jewelry everywhere I went. it was a major pain just to get an application to carry, which i was assured would be denied, unless i could prove an ongoing threat to my life. they also said that if i had been robbed or seriously assulted, it would not matter unless i could prove it related to the ongoing threat.
it took months to get an application.

jrhines
July 21, 2007, 01:37 PM
Maryland Code
Title 4 Weapons Crimes
Subtitle 2 Handguns
4-203 Wearing,....or transporting handgun.
(a)Prohibited.
(1)(ii) Wear, carry or knowingly transport a handgun...in a vehicle traveling on a (public road).

(b) Exceptions. This section does not prohibit:
.
(3) The carrying of a handgun on the person or in the vehicle while the person is transporting the handgun...between bona fide residences of the person, ...
(4) The wearing, carrying, or transporting by a person of a handgun used in connection with an organized military activity, a target shoot, formal or informal target practice, a sporting event, .....while the person is engaged in, on the way to, or returning from that activity if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or enclosed holster;

I am not a lawyer, but this looks to me like if you want to bring your pistols and take your BIL to the range for some "informal target practice", and once you cross the Mason-Dixon you go straight away to your Brother-in-laws house, and keep everything unloaded (including the magazines) and go to and from the range with no stops, easy-as-cake! I would not do anything stupid while I was on the road, you know, both hands on the wheel, look straight ahead, use your turn signals, say baaaaaa!
YMMV

kingpin008
July 21, 2007, 01:40 PM
Glassman - No problem. As far as your retirement - I'm a Maryland native, been here all of my 25 years - and I'll say this - I LOVE my home state. We have some amazing places and people here, and in that respect I am proud as hell to be a Marylander. However, that being said - my fiancee and I will be vacating this state as soon as we're able to, in search of friendlier surroundings. Not just for gunnies, but other aspects of our lives as well. (which, while I don't mind discussing, aren't gun-related in the slightest, heh)


I know certain parts of PA *cough*PHILADELPHIA*cough* aren't the best for gunnies either, but as a whole, life seems better for our type around your way than it does here.

kingpin008
July 21, 2007, 01:46 PM
I am not a lawyer, but this looks to me like if you want to bring your pistols and take your BIL to the range for some "informal target practice", and once you cross the Mason-Dixon you go straight away to your Brother-in-laws house, and keep everything unloaded (including the magazines) and go to and from the range with no stops, easy-as-cake! I would not do anything stupid while I was on the road, you know, both hands on the wheel, look straight ahead, use your turn signals, say baaaaaa!

That's true, but the problem with that, as stated above by JPK, is that the second he stops for gas, or to take a piss, or to grab a cup of coffee, he's in violation, and could be slapped with some serious charges. That's the problem. He'd have to meet his BIL at the range, since his BIL doesn't have a range on his property, if he's going there first he's still in violation. He'd have to meet his BIL there, shoot, and head straight home with no stops for gas, food, sleep, etc if he wanted to be 100% legal. Stopping at his BIL's house before or after is a violation. Huge hassle, and pretty much not worth it.

jrhines
July 21, 2007, 02:05 PM
..is not considered a "bona fide residence" while he is staying there. I would not volunteer to be the test case, but it would be interesting to know. Seems to me there was a THR get together a few months back to loosen the dirt in your barrels over on the Eastern shore. After the shoot, did everyone scoot for home? Nobody stopped for a sandwich? If I go shoot a 2 day 3-gun in Pax River and I take my AR, my shotti & my CZ and stay in a motel I'm in violation? I think not. Maybe I'm just a desperado at heart!

jrhines
July 21, 2007, 02:15 PM
No where in the code does it mention "non-stop" or "without stopping" or "directly between", or any of the other nonsense that is taken for gospel. I believe that the intent of this statute is to encourage folks to not throw the favorite S&W .38 & a box of shells in a gym bag in the back and leave it there. I would find it hard to believe that I would get convicted under this rule because I stopped to fill my gas tank, shake the dew off the lily and get a cuppa' joe.
YMMV

kingpin008
July 21, 2007, 02:25 PM
Jrhines - I'm not disagreeing with you, but the facts are that the law is written as it is, and we're not exactly in a gun-friendly state. While it may come down to individual cases and officers "discretion", I think that the potential legal trouble is worth the caution.

glassman
July 21, 2007, 02:30 PM
I know certain parts of PA *cough*PHILADELPHIA*cough* aren't the best for gunnies either, but as a whole, life seems better for our type around your way than it does here.

I live in the suburbs about 13 miles southwest of Philly. I asked a Philly cop about concealed carry in the city and he said that as long as you have a valid permit, he would 'recommend it'.
While the big cities like Philly and P'burg have their problems, there are a lot of places that are quiet and peaceful and great places to live. Lots of ranges and good hunting and fishing as well. If you're ever coming up this way, send me an instant message. Maybe meet up for an afternoon at the range.

kingpin008
July 21, 2007, 02:33 PM
Glassman - I'll do that. Admittedly I rarely stray far from home base, but if I ever get the urge to take a road-trip I'll keep ya in mind.

Never been hunting before, I've always wanted to go sometime though. I'm not big on the idea of "sport' hunting, but I've had venison and it's damn tasty, heh.

jrhines
July 21, 2007, 03:00 PM
and full caution is shurly in order...but my point is that many people tend to read in to the law a lot of draconian features that are simply not there. The facts are that I have quoted the law almost verbatim where it pertains to the transporting of a handgun on a public road in Maryland. The assumption that there are restrictions beyond what is written is just not warranted. How many prosecutions have there been in Maryland for illegal transport of a handgun under the conditions we are discussing, someone stopping for gas on the way to a match, etc.. I don't know of any, maybe because everyone in Md is scared to death (or at least 3 yrs in the slammer) of doing it. I agree that we are in a gun unfriendly state, but we still do have a very big shooting community here and I would be cautious about the JBT tales we tell to folks coming to our state. They are not waiting at the border saying "Papers, get out of the car!", at least not yet. FYI, my wife and I are purchasing a home in VA shortly...

Nolo
July 21, 2007, 03:08 PM
I wonder if I can conceal my Mosin-Nagant..?
Hehehe...
But yeah, Maryland sucks. We're pretty fascist down here. My grandparent's complain about the Democratic Republic of Virginia, but they don't know how good they've got it. At least they can carry knives with more than 2" blades...
(No kidding, I've almost gotten in trouble for it. Well, I did, once, in school, but that doesn't really count.)
They won't even let us hunt with rifles. We have to use shotguns! It's actually become quite an art down here. I mean, I can understand not being able to use them in residential areas, but where I live (Southern Maryland, the lower boonies), there aren't many big residential areas, so that point is effectively moot and up to the responsibility of the gunman.

yhtomit
July 21, 2007, 04:04 PM
I love Maryland! Pretty state, interesting people (friendly, on average), many interesting places, pleasant if tiny stretch of shoreline, great seafood, etc. Plenty of history to steep in.

However, I moved out of the state at 18 to go to school, and have ended up many places in the intervening years, including one short stretch back at home, telecommuting from there. No desire to move back to Maryland's high taxes, expensive real estate, and awful gun laws; if they went to a system of sales-tax-only and rational gun rules, I'd be pretty happy to live there again. As for now, it's a good place to visit, so long as you *don't* want a gun along.

timothy

mountainclmbr
July 22, 2007, 01:25 AM
I hope MD gets RTC, but I am not holding my breath.

glockophilic
July 22, 2007, 02:53 AM
I cant wait until I leave this state. 3 more years and then Im going west, maybe midwest or New Hampshire. High crime, High taxes, No gun rights, High cost of living, low average wages in my industry, Toll's on commonly used routes all around Baltimore, Traffic is always within top 5 worst places in the nation on Baltimore Washington corridor every year, did I mention the pollution? I only like it when Im boating . Yeah the people are very nice but they have forgotten freedom. Im no longer concerned about changing MD. It wont happen, its too much like a communist state. The best thing to do is get out when I can and go to a free state. Im counting down the years.

kingpin008
July 22, 2007, 04:55 AM
Glockophilic - Not to sound rude, but that sort of attitude is one of the reasons those of us in anti-gun states fight so hard. We haven't given up, we won't give up, and we don't WANT to give up.

I've heard the words "just move out of state" so many times, in response to the situation in MD, and it makes me a little angry. If it was that easy, don't ya'll think we would? Not everyone has the luxury of just "packing up and getting outta dodge". Some of us have careers, families, school, etc and CAN'T leave. And even if it were, do you think that by giving up the fight in one place, it won't be able to follow you anywhere else you might go? States like Maryland, Massachussetts, Cali & New York are testing grounds for the anti's. If they can get them to work there, they know they have their foot in the door, as it were, for national laws.

I'm sorry to sound like I'm aiming this all at you, the best I can say is that I am not. I can assure you - not all of us have "forgotten freedom". In fact, there are still some of us who try to do what we can to PRESERVE what freedoms we have left in this state. If you're not concerned enough to keep trying for change, then you're right - it definetly won't happen.

glassman
July 22, 2007, 06:20 AM
(b) Exceptions. This section does not prohibit:
.
(3) The carrying of a handgun on the person or in the vehicle while the person is transporting the handgun...between bona fide residences of the person, ...
(4) The wearing, carrying, or transporting by a person of a handgun used in connection with an organized military activity, a target shoot, formal or informal target practice, a sporting event, .....while the person is engaged in, on the way to, or returning from that activity if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or enclosed holster;

Thanks JRHINES for the post. It does make me think I'd be ok going to his 'bona fide residence' and then being able to do some 'informal target practice'. I think I'll call the state police before hitting the road just to be sure.

yhtomit
July 22, 2007, 08:58 AM
One reason I care about Maryland: my brother lives there, has bought a house. He lives there because his young daughter lives there, and he managed to find and buy a nice little townhouse less than two miles from his daughter's home (long story!); he works several jobs to stay alive and solvent, and his wife has a local job, too. For tax and gun sanity, I wish they lived elsewhere, but I still have a sentimental attachment to Maryland (which historically was a very pro-liberty state), and both jobs and people are very sticky factors.

So while *I* have already had the luxury of deciding not to live there, my brother doesn't have that as an overall acceptable option at the moment. So I'm interested in better laws there both for his sake and mine (when I visit).

timothy

JeffKnox
July 23, 2007, 10:52 AM
There is a very active organization committed to "shall issue" carry in Maryland; it's called "Maryland Shall Issue" http://www.marylandshallissue.org/
They're a great bunch of guys and you'd do well to get connected with them.

Yours for the Second Amendment,

Jeff Knox
The Firearms Coalition

Beatnik
July 23, 2007, 12:27 PM
I've heard the words "just move out of state" so many times, in response to the situation in MD, and it makes me a little angry.

I've recently changed my tune on this, especially since learning what PA is like.
If MD started on the path to be more like home, then home wouldn't be such a battleground state.
DC would be a microcosm of violence an death, without a macrocosm surrounding it to the north, and its residents would see all around them what gun ownership gets you.
PA would have less pressure on it - it's already pretty much surrounded, with the exception of Ohio, with pretty anti states.

MD right to carry would make for better neighbors for me. It's a good idea and I support it - ideologically. The problem is that I can't support it openly, because if I get involved, I'm tacitly agreeing to other states sticking their noses in Virginia's business.

But I can try to convince everyone not involved to stop naysaying. It happened in other states, and it can happen in MD. Moving isn't really the answer. We need to be encouraging them.

Norton
July 23, 2007, 01:26 PM
I always find it interesting that the majority of the folks that bash Maryland's stupid gun laws, spout the "I can't wait to move out this state" lines, and rain on everyones' optimism about reforming the CCW situation here are those that:

1. Have never joined the MSI mailing list or supported them financially.
2. Have never been to a hearing in Annapolis
3. Probably have never written a letter to their legislators.
4. Don't volunteer for the MCDL, MSI or NRA tables at the gun shows.

Believe it or not, things are better here than they could be.

Yes, we've been fighting defensive actions for the last 4 years. But....you know what? We've beaten back 4 attempts at an AWB, defeated the ammo tax, defeated the microstamping, neutered the IBIS system, and held off the assault weapons tax.

On the offense, MSI has received a lot of postive press in just the last two weeks for our efforts to expand the CCW procedures here. Does that equal shall issue? No....but it's one of many steps in the right direction and it's a damned sight more than any other supposed gun rights in this state is doing right now.

If you're going to leave for WV, PA, VA or even BFE, go for it.

Just realize that it's a temporary solution to a permanent problem.

The gun banners won't chew MD up and say, "Gee I'm full". They will finish off this state and proceed to the next one that they can gain a foothold on. The harder we fight here, the better off MD will be but so will the entire country.

twenty711
July 23, 2007, 05:17 PM
Thanks for all the information, I would like to know more about MSI. How does it work?

This is the Old Line State. I know which side of the line I'm on ;)

Norton
July 23, 2007, 05:22 PM
Thanks for all the information, I would like to know more about MSI. How does it work?


marylandshallissue.org (http://marylandshallissue.org/images/volunteer.pdf)

and, while not affiliated with MSI, you may want to check out mdshooters.com to keep up with things.

yhtomit
July 24, 2007, 11:33 PM
Well, if you ever want a very peaceable witness in Annapolis with a PA CCW who isn't paying Maryland taxes in part because the gun laws mean it's a state I don't where want to live despite having a positive emotional and family link to the place, sign me up ;)

I agree with the poster who mentioned that it'd be good for VA and PA if MD would get a bit saner on the issue.

timothy

kralizec
July 25, 2007, 12:58 AM
I live in Maryland and while I know my rights have been infringed,I still fight for them.The struggle for nationwide acknowledgement that the right to keep and bear arms is absolute will be won in states like Maryland and New Jersey,and in cities like New York and Washington D.C. Write letters,go to Annapolis,join the NRA,GOA and maryland shall issue.Take someone shooting or hunting.Know the law and use it.Register to vote.Fight.

http://www.marylandshallissue.org/

learn2shoot
July 30, 2007, 09:11 AM
I got this from a MSI update over a year ago (4/11/06) and have hung onto it because I feel it really sums it up... I am sure this applies to every state where the anti-gun sentiment is prevelant.



Can you move a loaded boxcar by yourself, by hand? Of course not. Nobody can do that. They can weight 100 tons or more. Your puny 180 pounds (or whatever) doesn't have a prayer of moving 100 tons - even on wheels.


Believe it or not, I have a friend whose job it was to move boxcars by hand. As he explained it, you get a big long pry bar and wedge it under a wheel of the boxcar. You get on the end of the pry bar and hang all your weight, and wait ... the boxcar will move almost imperceptibly - maybe a quarter inch. You do that again and again and each time it moves a little farther until pretty soon it's rolling along at mile or two an hour and you can't stop it. Moving boxcars by hand ... this is what we're doing in our fight for gun rights in Maryland.

MSI just started less than 2 years ago but this fight for shall-issue in Maryland has been going on for about 15 years.

Before MSI was started the situation had been much worse. The boxcar was moving the wrong direction (towards 'gun control') and had to be stopped before we could begin to go the other way. This was a tremendously difficult job and was accomplished by those who were on the scene before MSI arrived -- folks like (sorry, I'm sure to leave important ones out....) Sandy Abrams, Ray Albaugh, Dave Dimock, Steve Dirlik, Doug Gross, Ken Grubb, Charles Guggenheimer, John Josselyn, Phil Lee, Ed Patrick, Jim Purtilo, Mark Wilson and Dr. Zox; legislators like Carmen Amedori and Joe Getty (and many others); organizations like GOA and NRA. Phil Lee has a couple excellent postings that deal with this:

A Brief History of Maryland's Gun Laws:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maryland_Alert/message/2196

End of Legislative Session - status:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maryland_Alert/message/2199

This year we got many good bills introduced, more pro-gun bills than in any session for at least the last couple decades, and the anti-gun bills were just going through the motions. The Assault Weapons Ban could not get a Senate sponsor, and the AWB in the House got 30 fewer cosponsors than last year. For the last two sessions the Maryland State Police did NOT testify against shall-issue CCW, while the previous sessions they did.

The Legislative Session is over for this year. None of our good pro-self-defense bills got a vote, but there was clear (if small) movement in our direction.

The boxcar is starting to move the other direction - towards gun rights. We are gaining momentum. The elections are next. What happens in the elections will set the stage for what we can and can't accomplish for the next 4 years. The elections will be crucial.

Everyone needs to get involved in elections in your own District. Find out who is running in your District. Find out what their positions are on gun rights. Determine who deserves your support... and support them!

Legislators are most grateful for those who not only donate money, but donate time ... work for their campaign ... put up yard signs in their yard, and walk the Districts with them. These are the people that the legislators will get to know as representative of their constituents... the concerns of these workers will become the concerns of these legislators. Work for those legislators in your district and you will have access and influence.

It's very important to support those that supported us. It will also be important to support and influence those who might consider supporting us in the future.

The boxcar is moving ... we need to keep it moving.

Airman193SOS
July 30, 2007, 11:27 AM
I've recently changed my tune on this, especially since learning what PA is like.

What's wrong with Pennsylvania? I carry regularly here, with no issues. I've even carried in Philadelphia, where they're making moves to abolish state preemption (likely with no success).

Beatnik
July 30, 2007, 02:38 PM
What's wrong with Pennsylvania?

A lot less than I thought, which was my point. PA isn't as bad as MD or NJ or NY. I used to think we were the last stop for gun rights going north. I now know that's no longer the case.

We don't need to import people. We need to export this idea:

VCDL rejects the approach of focusing on a defensive battle until “the time is right”. Even if you win 95% of the defensive battles, you lose 5%. Over time, this defensive war of attrition slowly whittles away our Rights until we have none.

The time isn’t going to magically become right to introduce pro-gun legislation. Instead, WE have to make the time right. And we do that by constantly pushing a pro-gun agenda – getting pro-gun legislation before the General Assembly, getting voters to contact their legislators, and hounding any locality that violates the law.

Even if we win only 5% of our pro-gun agenda each year, we are advancing our Rights each and every year, instead of losing them bit-by-bit.

crebralfix
July 30, 2007, 08:40 PM
You already have the right to carry without the state's permission.

Haven't you heard of civil disobedience?

crebralfix
July 30, 2007, 08:42 PM
The problem isn't that you "don't have the right to carry"...it's that you have FAILED to demand what you already possess.

kingpin008
July 30, 2007, 10:00 PM
Crebral - How would you know that? Do you live in Maryland? Do you follow the efforts of our local gunner's rights groups?

Or do you just like to make snide comments on issues that you don't have anything to do with, except as an internet observer?

We HAVE been fighting for our rights in Maryland. Ask Norton and the others here, they'll tell you. They're the ones who are leading the fight, trying to get things to make sense around here. Yes, we have a natural right to self defense, like anyone else does - but we also have the possibility of going to PRISON for a long time if we don't follow the rules. Civil disobedience is one thing, criminal activity is another.

kingpin008
July 30, 2007, 10:10 PM
Double post. :p

crebralfix
July 31, 2007, 08:05 AM
I live in Virginia and am active in my state (and area), so don't lecture me on "fighting for your rights". You're not really fighting for them; you are ASKING. You do NOT need to ask. This attitude you have has resulted in people like me having to drive around YOUR borders because I don't have the money to fight it out in court.

I haven't seen a march on the capitol while openly carrying yet. When are you going to get off your duff and organize it? Why not organize all Maryland gun clubs and do a march? If people are serious, then start DEMANDING that they remove the law that forbids carry (and no, don't demand "concealed carry PERMITS").

Rosa Parks did an illegal act and look at the good that came out of it.

Beatnik
July 31, 2007, 10:32 AM
Rosa Parks did an illegal act and look at the good that came out of it.

Right... because her refusing to move is the only thing anyone ever did for civil rights. It just magically changed after that moment.

You don't have to drive around Maryland: you have rights there too, when are you going to stand up for them?

Is someone going to lock this thread please?

crebralfix
July 31, 2007, 10:35 AM
There is a huge difference between one man and 10,000. If I had the money, I'd take them to court...that's what one man can do against the agents of the state who enforce unconstitutional laws. Now, if 10,000 armed men marched, that's a whole different ballgame.

Maryland is not going to respond to yet another letter writing campaign. This is obvious.

And, Beatnik, don't be silly. We all know the history behind the Civil Rights movement.

Norton
July 31, 2007, 02:02 PM
crebralfix,

If your rights are so absolute, then I suggest that you promptly try walking around the security checkpoint at the Richmond Airport with a handgun and see how well that turns out for you.

You should be GRATEFUL that there are as many people in MD and the other frontline states fighting the anti-gun battle as there are.

As much as the groups like VPC, MMM and the Brady Campaign want to pretend that they are this all-encompassing grassroots movement of concerned citizens, the reality is that it is a very small contingent of dedicated whackos who want to see the 2nd amendment stripped in practice from every citizen in this country.

As long as they are busy here fighting an uphill battle to pass more anti-gun laws, they have damned few other resources to attack your Constitutional rights in VA.

Things aren't as secure in the Old Dominion as some would like to believe. I mean, just where do you think all of those people in those houses in the Shenandoah Valley are from. They're not from VA, that's for sure. They are escaping the confiscation of their retirement money through taxation in places like MD, NJ, MA, NY. Trouble is that while they fleeing that taxation, they are bringing their anti-gun mindset with them.

So, before you go attacking an entire state of gun owners you should check out the facts and realize that, though we are definitely on the trailing end of making improvements, every fight that we win here is a victory for the long term security of your rights as well.

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