Dragunov Tigr questions


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Coronach
July 22, 2007, 01:23 AM
The same guy that is selling the Polytech M14S is also, apparently, selling a "Dragunov Tiger with scope". He wants $2,000.

:scrutiny:

I know less than nothing about the Dragunov series, so...

1. How can you identify the different variations?

2. What are the different variations worth?

3. What should one look for?

He has specifically adverised it as Russian, so I'm just going to assume it's not a Romak. I dunno if it is a KBI gun or what, and I totally can't afford it at the moment, anyway. I'm gonna go look at it, and if it looks good and all, I might see if I can wheedle some sort of private party layaway. Or maybe not.

I dunno.

Thoughts?

Mike

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Hoppy590
July 22, 2007, 02:24 AM
ok. i am no expert and everything iv learned iv learned from here

www.dragunov.net

basicly you want to ensure its a dragunov/tigr and not an Romak. a romak is an enlarged AK and a dragunov/tigre is differnat. romaks have stamped recievers for one

TheDisturbed1
July 22, 2007, 04:49 AM
Tigr, NDM-86, and SVD carry identical features. Romak III and PSL (which look the same) have different handguards, stock, mags, bolt carrier, and the reciever cover is different too.

Tigr rec. cover has a curve downwards towards the front of the ejection port. RIII and PSL dont. not to mention, i think that the Tigr is much longer and 2k is a whopping deal these days. somy crazy folks sell em for 8k.

Tigr's are best, but PSL's arent too bad. not worth 2k tho

Ash
July 22, 2007, 09:35 AM
The Tigr is shorter than the Romak. Basically, the Tigr series of SVD's come with sporter-style furnature and a shortened barrel. Magazines and scopes are military, as are the receiver, fire control group etc. But, the barrel is not SVD length. It is shorter. Also, it may or may not have a brake but probably not a flash-hider. It will be marked Tigr or some such on the receiver, of course.

They are sporter versions of the real deal SVD made at the real deal Russian factory (Izhmash).

I suppose the analogy could be the Tigr is to the SVD that a Remington BDL is to the M24, except you cannot get a correct SVD barrel for the Tigr.

Ash

Coronach
July 22, 2007, 02:23 PM
So, assuming this is a Tigr/NMD/SVD and not a PSL/Romak, $2k is a good deal?

I was really afraid you would say that. Why can't good deals come at reasonable intervals? :uhoh:

OK. Let's look at it this way...collector/Iwannacoolgunitis/neato-toy factor aside, are these guns worth the money, purely from a shooter perspective? I mean, $2k will put you a a long ways towards a quality rifle and some really good glass...

Thanks,

Mike

trueblue1776
July 22, 2007, 02:33 PM
I would buy it and flip it for $4K, if it's real.

slzy
July 22, 2007, 05:40 PM
svd has iron sights out to 1200 meters,tigr just to 300. i think tigr has same length barrel as svds.

Ash
July 22, 2007, 06:21 PM
Personally, for the money they are not worth it as shooters. Sure, they can shoot well, very well in some cases, but for $2,000 you can buy or build something that will be much, much more accurate.

Ash

slzy
July 22, 2007, 06:39 PM
from a shooter stand point no. M1a or something i would think.

slzy
July 22, 2007, 06:50 PM
i certainly do not want to start a "scout rifle" thread,but if the tigr were much less expensive,say $700 tops,it would come close to a semi-auto scout.

Hoppy590
July 22, 2007, 09:57 PM
it would come close to a semi-auto scout.
when its already a SDM rifle. why butcher it to become a "scout rifle"

Coronach
July 22, 2007, 11:45 PM
I think he's saying that in its current configuration it would be a fine quasi-scout. Which, basically, is kinda what a SDM/DMR is, so that makes sense. Sure, it might not fit Cooper's strict criteria, but that basic idea is somehat similar. He seemed to be objecting to the price, which...well...have you priced a Steyr Scout lately, with glass? Not too far off, really.

Still dunno if I'm gonna get this. I'm going to go look at it tomorrow.

Mike

kBob
July 23, 2007, 01:06 PM
For those with bulging libraries:

There is a Review of the Bear 9.3 x54R version of this rifle in the 1971 Guns& Ammo Annual. Shooting impressions sections starts on page 310 and the review is not much further into the section.

During the early 1970's in US Army Europe I suggest that purchasing the Tigr and using Smiths Pictures from his Small arms of the world to make up new stocks and parts might give one an SVD good enough for training purposes and perhaps evaluation as SVDs did not seem to be commercially available at the time. ( my understandng is that the USAmry and USMC had but three until Eygpt came over from the dark side and then had a boat load. I saw my first at Ft. Bragg in 1980) The Tigrs and Bears were available in Switzerland and I imagine they could have been had in West Germany then as well. I did not buy one myself because No Soviet or Warsaw Pact made firearm was importable by a returning servieman at the time. I sincerly wanted one of the little Margolin .22LR pistols that at the timecame with two extra mags a wooden range box, weights and adjstable grips for near nothing and considered buying one and trying to sell it when I got short. The same thing happened when the Rod & Gun Club at Graf had the CZ52 available in 1975 (and with a lovely deep blue commercial finish like the early CZ75s and in 9x19mm and so marked at that) but sold them with the warning that they could not be imported.

I often wondered if our LT that purchased a Starlite (Star BM) with its Beta Light equiped sights had any dificulty importing his radio active gun. The gun had a front sight dot and a single dot on the rear below the notch. One made a colon : on the target in low light and fired. It worked well. I actualyliked it better than the later three dot systems.

But I drift.

I have often wondered just how available the Tigr and Bear were to Soviet and WP citizens in 1971.

-Bob Hollingsworth

buck00
July 23, 2007, 04:44 PM
Coronach, I've been in your shoes. I had the Dragunov bug really bad before. I would say the Tigr isn't worth the $2,000 you have to spend (unless you are well off). For $2,000 (or less) you could buy a much nicer (and newer) rifle.

You end up paying $2,000 for a Russian Tigr or $3,500 for an NDM-86 mainly for the "cool factor" and simply because of the supply/demand market conditions. I would argue a Tigr or NDM-86 simply isn't worth paying that much for it. You could buy several rifles and ammo for the same price.

But then again- not many people own them and its not like the price will be dropping ever. Good luck.

Coronach
July 23, 2007, 06:30 PM
Well, I saw it. I'm moderately underwhelmed. It feels exactly like a stretched AK, which it kindasorta is (yesssss, yesssss, I know, different action). It balanced well (being a carbine version, I imagine the real deal SVD might be more nose-heavy with the extra 4" of bbl). It had black plastic furniture on the foreend and a ugly synthetic sporter stock with rubber buttpad. As light as it is (startlingly light), I can only imagine that the recoil pad would be a Godsend when it launches its 10 rounds of 7.62x54R downrange. Kills on one end, maims on the other (not, actually, unlike my chili. But I digress).

The receiver was marked TIGER and IZHMASH and Imported by B-West (I'm paraphrasing). So, it's not a Romak/PSL. The scope is one of the many Russian oddball scopes with the siderail mount. The reticle was...byzantine. I'm not sure which it is, but I can probably find out by looking online. The optics were bright and crystal clear. The Russians might make bizarre engineering choices, but they use good glass.

$2000. Hmm.

If it's still there when I have $2k sitting around idle, I will probably pick it up. If it's gone, I won't cry.

Mike

Coronach
July 23, 2007, 06:39 PM
Here's a question:

I know that you can get furniture to turn the Tigr into a quasi-SVD. Anyone know where one could get that, and how much?

The other major difference seems to be the barrel. IF I eventually buy this (and that's a very very big "if"), I would absolutely want to get the look of the real-deal SVD. I mean, let's face it- the cool points are the only reason to own this. Are there any barrels out there of the appropriate length?

Mike

slzy
July 23, 2007, 07:22 PM
yeah,i meant quasi scout as it sits,meets many of the Colonels requirements.

i got a wooden stock and plastic handguards from numrich many years ago.

Ash
July 23, 2007, 09:44 PM
The real deal furnature is available but will run about $500 for all stuff.

Ash

Coronach
July 23, 2007, 09:54 PM
Furniture and barrel, or just furniture?

That's a lot of scratch for some window-dressing, if the latter.

Thanks,

Mike

cvb
July 23, 2007, 11:48 PM
see if hell come down a little- a year ago
i had the chance to get one at 1k. too bad
didnt have the money-more like gun vs pregnant wife.
good luck, looks like youre buying.

Coronach
July 23, 2007, 11:56 PM
He won't come down- already tried. Now I'm trying Phase Two. Give it a few weeks, and come back around. If the gun is gone, temptation is gone- problem solved. If it's not, maybe it will drop a little.

Who knows. I'm not jonesing after this one, after holding it. I was more psyched before I saw it than after, which is a good sign for not succumbing to the Iwannacoolgun Virus.

Mike

Logan5
July 24, 2007, 01:23 AM
It's a very cool rifle, but there is an apples and oranges comparison here. It's not going to hold it's own against, say, your grandpa's Winchester 54 with a Lyman aperture rear sight at 100 yards, even though the optic is there, because the readily available 7.62x54R ammunition in the proper projectile weight isn't. It's not a "precision rifle", it's a "reasonably precise rifle", if that makes any sense.
For $2000, it's pretty hot as a forbidden cold war relic, and supplies are very limited. There is a fair amount of arcana to be mastered in terms of care & feeding, optimal bullet weight, optic selection, sling use, etc.

http://www.dragunov.net/tiger.html

It's not a CAI though, so the rifle has that going for it.

BigG
July 24, 2007, 08:09 AM
The Ishmash Dragunov Tigr with import marks by B-West is the real deal. I have one. I got an extra stock and added a couple inches length of pull, painted flat black and also have the old stock. It has the PS-1 scope with rangefinder.

They shoot easier than you would think. About like a 308 M1A. Much cooler than an M1A on the firing line and the scope is a really nice piece of work.

max popenker
July 24, 2007, 09:09 AM
The real deal furnature is available but will run about $500 for all stuff.
That's a lot. From a quick online search thru Russian websites i found that someone sells new wooden SVD-style butt and forend for Tigr for roughly $160.

Current going prices for a NIB Tigr here (in Russia ;)) are about $1200-1500, depending on version.

Coronach
July 24, 2007, 02:07 PM
Max-

Do you know, can one obtain full-length SVD barrels anywhere? And how hard of a job would that be for a gunsmith the swap onto a Tigr?

Thanks,

Mike

jford1
July 24, 2007, 03:32 PM
I convinced my Dad to get a B-west import in 93-94 for about $725 or so. It's a great rifle. My Dad was jealous of how accurate my 270 BAR was but wanted a rifle he wouldn't have to equip with a scope or sight in. I told him they are usually sighted in at the factory and he was sold. He didn't even know what it was at the time. We bought some Norma 150gr soft points and took it to the range. It shot about 1 MOA 1/2" high at 100 yards. We called that good and he took it with him twice deer hunting. He missed his only shot both years but it certainly wasn't the rifles fault. The carbine recoils very soft for such a light setup. I agree with the comparison to the M1A. I recently had to convince him not to take it shooting with his buddies corrosive surplus. He's only shot it at the range three times and twice hunting. It's never shot corrosive. He had no idea what it was worth now. The short laminated stock is my only complaint but the scope has plenty of eye relief. If it hasn't been done already put some electrical tape on the receiver cover just behind the ejection port. The brass chips the finish off pretty quickly. I don't know if it's worth $2k but they are handy little carbines with a great history. I don't think you'll ever find a barrel after the ATFs reinterpretation of imported parts kits. There was a guy (I think in Ohio) who was making custom hooded dragunov front sights with flash hiders and bayonet lugs for the tigrs. I have no idea who, how much, or when he was doing this. I've just seen pictures and talked to people who have had them installed. The ATF even released a letter stating it was okay to install them. The wood furniture looks fantastic and really makes it recognizable as a true dragunov. I might buy some for my Dad one of these days.

max popenker
July 24, 2007, 03:38 PM
Coronach, barrels here are considered to be "regulated" items, as well as receivers, bolts and all other "major" parts (furniture, sights and stocks are not regulated, thanks Heaven!), so i doubt that you can legally buy a new SVD barrel here in Russia :(

buck00
July 24, 2007, 04:59 PM
Well, I saw it. I'm moderately underwhelmed

Go with your gut. The first time you see a rifle/pistol you really want, you should be in love- like seeing a beautiful girl back when you were a teenager. If you have reservations about it now, you may regret getting it later. Sure, some have suggested you could buy it then sell it for more possibly, but $2,000 is a lot to invest.

Furniture? I've seen some guys put wood on them to make them look like junior Dragunovs.

http://www.rusmilitary.com/html/c-deact_furniture.htm

This guy has the real deal Soviet, but I am not sure the SVD and Tigr are interchangable. Again, I wouldn't spend all my money trying to make it look like a real Drag- you'll still have a Tigr. If you are willing to pay $2k, I'd save up for another 12-15 months and pay $3,000 for a NDM-86. (if you can find it at that price). JMO.

Yes the Dragunov bug is bad once it bites. :evil:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=61286&stc=1&d=1185307127

Coronach
July 24, 2007, 05:47 PM
The first time you see a rifle/pistol you really want, you should be in love- like seeing a beautiful girl back when you were a teenager....back when I was a teenager-

Wait a minute. you mean that feeling goes away?!?

Mike ;)

slzy
July 24, 2007, 06:38 PM
i was lucky to get mine when i did. i remember tigrs for $670 something in shotgun news. but for $2000 i would like to have a trg42.

AnimeFanatic5602
November 8, 2010, 07:33 PM
For those who don't know, the Tigr is the civilianized version of the Dragunov SVD. It's made in the same factory, and is an entirely different platform than the AK - unlike most of the copies on the U.S. market today. I started a petition a while back to try and get them imported again, but it's been slow going thus far.

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/izhtgr12/petition.html

http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/tigr.shtml (the Izhmash website page on the Tigr)

marktx
November 8, 2010, 10:18 PM
They aren't imported because of a voluntary agreement between the US and Russia, the ATF doesn't have anything to do with it from what I understand. You are barking up the entirely wrong tree.

Yes, it would be nice if the Dragunovs were allowed back in but it's really not a practical goal in my estimation.

AnimeFanatic5602
April 18, 2011, 10:24 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I may be barking up the wrong tree, but nothing will get done unless somebody does something about it. The problem is, I'm only one person. Considering that it's been so long since these rifles have been imported, I feel fairly confident in saying that they've become something of a niche market. There's no reason why they shouldn't be imported, and the only way that any sort of action even has a miniscule chance of occurring is if we raise a big enough stink about it. They were banned under the anti-gun atmosphere, and it's fair time that we take another look at them. Besides, the Romanian and Yugoslavian knockoffs are already everywhere as it is.

Adam123
April 19, 2011, 09:45 AM
So, assuming this is a Tigr/NMD/SVD and not a PSL/Romak, $2k is a good deal?

I was really afraid you would say that. Why can't good deals come at reasonable intervals? :uhoh:

OK. Let's look at it this way...collector/Iwannacoolgunitis/neato-toy factor aside, are these guns worth the money, purely from a shooter perspective? I mean, $2k will put you a a long ways towards a quality rifle and some really good glass...

Thanks,

Mike

I have talked to a lot of guys that own Dragunovs. You will get the same accuracy out of a Dragunov that you will get with a PSL. Dragunovs are way overpriced only because they are no longer being imported. If you want one as a collector, $2k is a reasonable deal. If you want one as a rifle to shoot/use, forget about it and get a PSL for a third of the price. It will be just as reliable and accurate. So to answer your question: (are these guns worth the money, purely from a shooter perspective?) These rifles are way overpriced.

cosmoch
April 19, 2011, 04:52 PM
i got infected the very first second i picked it up.

So after some months it's finally finished. the dragunov i bought came with the polymer handguard and stock which i replaced with the wood.

kennedy
April 19, 2011, 11:36 PM
easy way to tell the difference between a dragonuv and a romak is look at the mag, the romak has ribs that form a X, while the drag are vertical and parallel.

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