Recommend an AK


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GunTech
July 22, 2007, 05:18 PM
I haven't looked at AKs in about 10 years, and am thinking it's time to have another one. In the past I've been disappointed by the accuracy, and I don't expect it has gotten any better. But I suspect that there is a good chance of another ban if there is an administration chance.

I any case, I am looking for another AK and have a couple of questions.

How available is 5.45x39? I am thinking either an AK-74 in 5.45 or 223. I have tons of 223 ammo (think tens of thousands of rounds) so a 223 AK would be handy.

I'd like the AK-74 style brake, and synthetic furniture. Not interested in a folding stock, but one of the longer stocks, made for us big Americans would be handy. A very casual internet search took me to Atlantic firearm. This one looks like it has the feartures I want, but I know nothing about their quality, availability of mags, etc.

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/programming/expand.asp?Prodid=271

I haven't totally discounted 7.62x39, but as I say, I have lots of 223.

Thanks for the input.

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GunTech
July 22, 2007, 05:21 PM
More details.

I plan to mount an Ultimak sight rail on the rifle, so the ability to accept an Ultimak is a requirement.

Thanks

Iacabo
July 22, 2007, 05:35 PM
I have no experience with .223 aks but If thats what I was after I'd take a hard look at Arsenal's 5.56mm SLR-106FR, heres an interesting article about if it means anything to you. http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/avtomat_040207/Its a little pricey for an AK but It won't let you down in the accuracy deptartment.

ancient_philosophy
July 22, 2007, 05:39 PM
for christs sake, the AK47 was DESIGNED as a 100 yard MAX weapon....and in reality a 50 yard or less weapon.


why? .......cause 99% of battlefield conditions showed thats what it was, average of 40 yards.


so.....why again are you bitching about AK accuracy?? :scrutiny: :scrutiny:


its downright ignorant to THINK of getting a .223 AK, .....all youre getting is a MORE reliable Ar15, but FAR LESS accurate.......senseless....

senseless!!!!!! :cuss:

AndyC
July 22, 2007, 06:20 PM
Take a chill-pill, dude. Why the rant?

Aaryq
July 22, 2007, 06:24 PM
Calm down and breathe a little. guntech wasn't knocking your AK, he was just curious about other options aside from 7.62x39.

GunTech
July 22, 2007, 06:42 PM
for christs sake, the AK47 was DESIGNED as a 100 yard MAX weapon....and in reality a 50 yard or less weapon.


why? .......cause 99% of battlefield conditions showed thats what it was, average of 40 yards.


so.....why again are you bitching about AK accuracy??


Close. You need to dust off you copy of Hitchman. 90% of all infantry small arms fire occurs at 300 yards or less. Only 70% is at 100 yards or less, with the average range in open country (for example the ETO) of about 75 yards.

See: "Operational requirements for an infantry hand weapon" by Norman Hitchman, and published by ORO, Johns Hopkins University. This is the only detailed study of smallarms fire in combat conducted to date. it covers WWII and Korea, and is supported by data collected in Vietnam and several Arab-Israeli conflicts - not to mention the ACR tests of the 1980's.

Why a reasonably accurate AK? Because this is going to by a play rifle for potting small creatures, not a combat rifle. Why 223? Because I have tens of thousands of rounds of 223 - well, 38,000 anyway.

I would like good quality, excellent durability and an availability of parts and magazines. I'd like 3 MOA, which will make it adequate for casual rodent blasting while still being realistic about what the AK is capable of. I'm thinking I'll order around 50 mags if I can get them for around $20 each.

GunTech
July 22, 2007, 06:51 PM
I looked at the Arsenal AK and norticed there is no provision for a muzzle brake. The do want some moeny for them. I can recall buying AK for about $200 when I had my FFL (prior to the ARB). Sigh.

dstorm1911
July 22, 2007, 07:20 PM
HMMMM very intresting rant actually particularily as it is repeated on several threads. It becomes even more intersting when we look at the other threads where Ancient Philosophy there has participated stating how much he dearly loves the AK and in particular the Yugo Underfolder to such extent that he posted this thread

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=290352

here on the high road, this same pic and post apears on AKFILES under

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26082

this pic apears in similar threads on other forums but yet it seems are friend here while so into building AK underfolders has not learned just how accurate an AK really is to constantly be making these rants regarding it being useless past 100 yards, this is extremally confusing as anyone who has ever built more than two AK pattern rifles will tell ya very quikly without much provocation just how accurate the rifle actually is out to 400 yards and that the stiffer reciever used for the Yugo version greatly enhances this........ except our friend here who somehow while first time builders end up with screw built Romanian G kits that produce regularily targets that only the blind can fail to be impressed with out to 300 yards yet our friend states he has built 19 Yugo's and still has not figured out how to shoot one out past 100 yards!!

If anyone else can figure out the phenomena please help me out here??

Now as to our original question, the .223 chambered AKs do tend to be flatter shooting at extended ranges however mags are an extra headache and the round itself really is very ineffectual for serious deffensive use...... if ya can live with the .30 cal original I would strongly recomend Ironically the subject of our friends obsession....... the Yugo M70AB2 Its about the only underfolder I really enjoy shooting and While Ancient philosophy apperantly can't build one capable of accuracy past 50-100 yards pretty much every other builder can easily put ya one together capable of very respectable accuracy out to about 350-400 yards I build super customs that will do much better but at about twice the price tag so if ya can live with 400 yards I'd suggest a $450 Century built version, the finish isn't as nice as the higher $$ custom rifles but it does have the exact same match grade barrel the same nodal 1.6 mm fully heat treaded reciever etc....

Good luck on what ya decide......... I'd deffinetly not buy anything built by A-P however... if outa 19 a builder can't get a single accurate rifle ya wanna stay way WAY clear of any rifle that builder has had a hand in building!!

Brother in Arms
July 22, 2007, 07:23 PM
"for christs sake, the AK47 was DESIGNED as a 100 yard MAX weapon....and in reality a 50 yard or less weapon.


why? .......cause 99% of battlefield conditions showed thats what it was, average of 40 yards.


so.....why again are you bitching about AK accuracy??


its downright ignorant to THINK of getting a .223 AK, .....all youre getting is a MORE reliable Ar15, but FAR LESS accurate.......senseless....

senseless!!!!!! "




Ancient Philosophy

Maybe you need to take a couple more trips to the range or stop believing all that you read on the internet. The AK is not a Sub-Machine gun shooting a pistol cartridge it is a carbine firing an Intermediate cartridge. As GunTech said the AK was DESIGNED for 300M or closer. The Soviets discovered that they didn't need the longer range of a full powered rifle catridge in most situations. And they liked the high rate of fire and capacity that submachine guns had to offer, so they developed the AK and had the best of both worlds.

All Guntech said was that he was "disapointed with the AK's accuracy." which is relative to what you compare it to. In fact I think you greatly discounted its actual and practical accuracy. My SAR-1 shoots 3MOA offhand with Wolf FMJ.

I suspect that an AK chambered in .223 would shoot more accurately than an AK chambered for 7.62X39mm. I am not saying it will ever be as accurate as an AR. But several people I have talked to reload for the AK and have found that greatly tightens there groups and I have read that Russian soldiers shot down telephone wires with AK-74's in Chechnya and .233 is supposed to be more accurate than 5.45X39mm. I think an AK in .223 isn't a bad idea and apparently several world armies don't either. Russia, Bulgaria, Poland and Romania are manufacturing AK's in 5.56X45mm.

An .223 AK probably will have better reliabilty than AR and yes of course it will be less accuracy but everything in life has trades offs. Under field conditions I doubt it will matter much.

GunTech

I say go with .223 if you already have that much ammo its not worth getting another caliber that is ballistically so similiar. All of your requirements are totally doable for an AK chambering .223. Sounds like you want to build an AK-101 with an Ultimak Rail. I can't tell you anything about Atlantic firearms as I have no experience with them. Everything I have ever used by Arsenal was very good.

You could always get a Saiga .223 and set it up the way you want. Its not that difficult and its alot of fun.

As for magazine avialability there are several different .223 AK magazines available. Though I have only used the Wieger Magazines and they worked flawless. AK-74 Magazines can have the followers changed and use .223 ammuntion.

Brother in Arms

busy_squirrel
July 22, 2007, 07:27 PM
I didm't like the Saiga .223 honestly. Personal taste only, based on what I thought the bolt assembly "should feel like" when it comes back at me. That's a purely negligible opinion I'm sure.

However, it was as accurate as any AK I've tried. I hear it's uncommon to get worse than 2MOA with them, and plenty of people have claimed 1 MOA but they're certainly better shooters than I am.

Brother in Arms
July 22, 2007, 07:33 PM
"for christs sake, the AK47 was DESIGNED as a 100 yard MAX weapon....and in reality a 50 yard or less weapon.


why? .......cause 99% of battlefield conditions showed thats what it was, average of 40 yards.


so.....why again are you bitching about AK accuracy??


its downright ignorant to THINK of getting a .223 AK, .....all youre getting is a MORE reliable Ar15, but FAR LESS accurate.......senseless....

senseless!!!!!! "




Ancient Philosophy

Maybe you need to take a couple more trips to the range or stop believing all that you read on the internet. The AK is not a Sub-Machine gun shooting a pistol cartridge it is a carbine firing an Intermediate cartridge. As GunTech said the AK was DESIGNED for 300M or closer. The Soviets discovered that they didn't need the longer range of a full powered rifle catridge in most situations. And they liked the high rate of fire and capacity that submachine guns had to offer, so they developed the AK and had the best of both worlds.

All Guntech said was that he was "disapointed with the AK's accuracy." which is relative to what you compare it to. In fact I think you greatly discounted its actual and practical accuracy. My SAR-1 shoots 3MOA offhand with Wolf FMJ.

I suspect that an AK chambered in .223 would shoot more accurately than an AK chambered for 7.62X39mm. I am not saying it will ever be as accurate as an AR. But several people I have talked to reload for the AK and have found that greatly tightens there groups and I have read that Russian soldiers shot down telephone wires with AK-74's in Chechnya and .233 is supposed to be more accurate than 5.45X39mm. I think an AK in .223 isn't a bad idea and apparently several world armies don't either. Russia, Bulgaria, Poland and Romania are manufacturing AK's in 5.56X45mm.

An .223 AK probably will have better reliabilty than AR and yes of course it will be less accuracy but everything in life has trades offs. Under field conditions I doubt it will matter much.

GunTech

I say go with .223 if you already have that much ammo its not worth getting another caliber that is ballistically so similiar. All of your requirements are totally doable for an AK chambering .223. Sounds like you want to build an AK-101 with an Ultimak Rail. I can't tell you anything about Atlantic firearms as I have no experience with them. Everything I have ever used by Arsenal was very good.

You could always get a Saiga .223 and set it up the way you want. Its not that difficult and its alot of fun.

As for magazine avialability there are several different .223 AK magazines available. Though I have only used the Wieger Magazines and they worked flawless. AK-74 Magazines can have the followers changed and use .223 ammuntion.

Brother in Arms

GunTech
July 22, 2007, 07:49 PM
Yes, AK-101 is exatly the thing. I have no use for folding stocks, which are fine if you need the space in your IFV, but useless otherwise. There are some good folders like those on the FAL Para or The Galil, but most, in my experieve are pretty flimsy and not conducive to good shooting (poor check weld, for example). Folders are a geegaw for people who want to be tactikool.

As far as relative accuracy, I shoot 1000yard tactiocal shoots, and all my precision rifles will do 1/4 MOA. By that standard, or even a well tuned AR or M14 clone, the AK is a bullet hose. I have never seen an AK that would do 2 MOA or better, but I am weilling to be convinced. When we did extensive testing some years ago, the average AK then available was a 4-5 MOA weapon with standard military ammo. That is just fine for a military weapon designed for close combat, but a little frustrating for a civilian shooter trying to hit small targets.

It should be noted that (contrary to what most gunwriters say) the typical hunting rifle with factor ammo is a 2-3 MOA rifle - thus a 2-3 MOA AK is comparable to most hunting rifles sold and thus of the same utility.

Ultimately, why do I want an AK? Because I currently don't own one, and thopught that now is the time to buy, before they get legislated out of existence - expect an assault rifle ban if the dems take the whitehouse.

I found the arsenal version of what I want, and everyone seems to agree that is the model to get. Thanks for all the input. I will report back after I get the rifle and have a chance to test.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=76585736#PIC

ancient_philosophy
July 22, 2007, 08:57 PM
"Ancient Philosophy there has participated stating how much he dearly loves the AK and in particular the Yugo Underfolder to such extent that he posted this thread"


so what, i also have 14 AR-15s......:scrutiny:

all these 1/4 MOA fools on this thread are the butt of jokes of anyone who was in Vietnam, where the common encounter was 20 inches,...ie the length of their M16s. :evil:

most places on earth are not Afghan. and Iraq.........ie lots of trees and hills........the nonsense of greater than 100 yard shots and the goons i see in gunshops who spent $2000.00+ on a US Optics scope on a Rem700 .300 win mag is nothing but laughing....the "more money than brains" crowd.

so you have 40,000 rounds of .223????? great........buy a nice bull barrel A3 AR15 and $400.00 Leupold 4-14x40 scope and sight it in.

100,000 varieties of AR15s,..........and joe blow is looking after an AK chambered in .223, which is , by design, not close to as accurate as what an AR15 can achieve..........

im not dissing him, but some other posters here talk like their Snipers in Afghanistan with their 1/4 MOA talk............LOL :scrutiny: :neener:

just senseless dribble.

ancient_philosophy
July 22, 2007, 09:02 PM
quote by DSTORM::
"he doesnt actually know how accurate the AK is out to 400 yards and that the stiffer reciever used for the Yugo version greatly enhances this"


excuse me, but thats a lie :evil:


the thicker AK reciever on Yugos (1.6mm VS 1mm average AK reciever thickness) has no bearing in SEMI AUTO ussage.

reciever flex affecting accuracy is only as pertains its ussage in full auto mode........

which in any instance,....at 400 yards is only laughable .....even locked in a ransom rest. :evil:

AK103K
July 22, 2007, 09:15 PM
When was the last time you tried shooting "your" AK at 400 yards there ancient_philosophy? How about 200?

I shoot mine at 200 on a regular basis, and on occasion, 300, and find that from field positions, I get similar results as I do with my AR's shot the same way.

Personally, I think both rifles are 300 yard guns, but thats me.

Heres a 200 yard target shot with a lowly SAR1 using the open sights and Wolf 154 grain SP's. The smaller group was from a rest to confirm zero, the upper group was from a cross legged sitting position and shot at a fairly steady cadence.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid215/pcb6d9762c6b9371579d52961301a68ab/ece2f3d2.jpg


If you can shoot, the AK wont let you down, especially if you practice with it.

GunTech
July 22, 2007, 09:17 PM
A_P,

You miss the entire point. I am not buying a rifle for combat. I already spent my time in the infantry. I have an AR. I want an AK just because I want an AK.

As far as you rant about long range shots, you need to distinguish between infantrymen and snipers/precision shooters. Know what the average range for sniper shots in Vietnam was? 650 yards. Snipers in Afghanistan are routinely shooting 1000 yards. Whe you are looking at a target 1000 yards away, you understand the value of a USO with Schott glass optics.

1/4 MOA is not hard to achieve. It just takes money and the right ammo. Here's my 1/4 rifle, soon to get the Leupold MkIV replaced with a USO ST10

http://guntech.com/40x/40x_AICS.jpg

That's me in the middle at a tactical shoot last April in Ryeberg Montana

http://www.precisionrifle.org/gallery/albums/userpics/P4210014.JPG

What a target look like at 1015 yards - cheap scopes don't cut it. The rifle in the foreground should look familiar.

http://www.precisionrifle.org/gallery/albums/userpics/P4210022composite.jpg

No disrepect intended, but I am curious about your tactical shooting experience.

AK103K
July 22, 2007, 09:28 PM
Yes, AK-101 is exatly the thing. I have no use for folding stocks, which are fine if you need the space in your IFV, but useless otherwise. There are some good folders like those on the FAL Para or The Galil, but most, in my experieve are pretty flimsy and not conducive to good shooting (poor check weld, for example). Folders are a geegaw for people who want to be tactikool.
Actually, the AK100 series have a very good folder. Its basically a standard stock that folds, making for the best of all worlds. I wouldnt go as far as call a good folder a "geegaw", they do have a use at times, and the right ones are by no means a hinderance to good shooting. Now a crappy one is a whole other story.

Check out Krebs if your looking for a nice AK. His Saiga conversions are second to none.

This is one of his 14" barreled AK103K''s wearing an Ultimak/Aimpoint.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid217/p07a021f987c4fc0d8fe46215dc28f00e/ec4ebf48.jpg



http://www.krebscustom.com/

GunTech
July 22, 2007, 09:34 PM
Actually, the folder shown is fine. I mean those crappy wire side and under folders one see's on AKs that so many people think are cool.

The rifle you show is near exactly what I want, except for the 223 caliber (due to large amounts of ammo on hand). I'm thinking about trying my Burris FastFire on the ultimake. It looks like the perfect co-incident red dot.

AndyC
July 22, 2007, 09:36 PM
ancient_philosophy, you're confusing your opinion with fact.

I'd suggest you shut it, stop badgering the guy who wants what he wants for the reasons he wants them and stop woofing about Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan as if you've been there yourself. It's quite apparent that you haven't or you'd know you that what you were writing would make for perfect toilet-paper, were it to be printed-out.

Go back to arfcom or glocktalk, kid - they like your type there.

To everyone else, I know this wasn't very High Road of me - my apologies.

Gun Tech, I'm also pondering a similar situation - an AK in .223

ancient_philosophy
July 22, 2007, 09:41 PM
:D nice accuracy intl. stock there guntech.......ive got one thats a folder on my rem 700;)


quote::"When was the last time you tried shooting "your" AK at 400 yards"


Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, thats what my Rem700 or Ar15, or Armalite .50BMG is for.........not my AK47. :evil:

"dont bring golf balls to a basketball game".....:scrutiny:


its ODD everyone here is talking about "so and so is shooting at 1000YDS in Afghanistan". :scrutiny:


Ummmmm, yer not in Afghanistan, nor is anyone here.

most people on gun boards talk like society is going to collapse tomorrow, and youll be shooting the old lady down the street at 300 yards from your rooftop in order to protect your collection of Cambells soup supply from being raided.

Father Knows Best
July 22, 2007, 09:55 PM
Yikes. I'm staying out of that p*ssing match.

Anyway, I have an Arsenal SA M-7S. That's a milled receiver Bulgarian semiauto in 7.62x39. It has a Kobra reflex (1x) sight on it. I can easily get 3 MOA off-hand with cheap Wolf ammo. I've also printed some nice 5-shot 1.5" groups at 100 yards off sand bags using PMC brass-cased factory ammo. I routinely use it at the 200 and 300 yard lines on torso targets, and I don't miss them if I do my part. I'm sure that with handloading, I could probably get it to shoot 1.5 MOA consistently, and perhaps even 1 MOA, but I don't feel the need for that kind of precision from my AK.

AK103K
July 22, 2007, 09:57 PM
Here's one on Kreb's page that you might be interested in.

http://www.krebscustom.com/RawPhotos/2-20-07/AK101K.jpg

KCI AK-101K CARBINE 5.56x45

nalioth
July 22, 2007, 10:06 PM
Will over at RedStick Firearms also knows his way around an AK. He also does Saiga conversions, and is all around good people.

Atlantic Firearms sells some of his work.

busy_squirrel
July 22, 2007, 11:00 PM
AP - unfortunately this is wrong:


the thicker AK reciever on Yugos (1.6mm VS 1mm average AK reciever thickness) has no bearing in SEMI AUTO ussage.

reciever flex affecting accuracy is only as pertains its ussage in full auto mode........

I've yet to hear of 1mm receivers though they are probably out there. I hear more about 1.2s and 1.4s

In addition, I have a Saiga 308 and receiver flex IS AN ISSUE. Why? Because I use the side mounted scope which is mounted on the receiver. Throws zero right out the window pretty quickly...and it's semi auto. *shrug*:(

Sonora Rebel
July 23, 2007, 12:10 AM
My cheap-o ($240.00) stamped receiver Norinco came with bottom folder... 'n I've owned it for 21 years w/o any case of the flimsies noted. I can hit what I aim at. It was designed as a close combat (automatic) weapon, not a Jeager. It's chambered for standard available ammo (7.62x39mm) If you're gonna fire 5.56mm... Get an AR clone. Single shooters cancel out any wiggle you might get on full-auto.

"most people on gun boards talk like society is going to collapse tomorrow, and youll be shooting the old lady down the street at 300 yards from your rooftop in order to protect your collection of Cambells soup supply from being raided."


I already have her pegged as soup pirate when the SHTF. She's dead meat.

M2Pilot
July 23, 2007, 12:25 AM
I've never owned an AK, never shot a semi AK & didn't sleep at a motel last nite & I'm not an expert about much of anything, but,for what it's worth. A few months ago Shotgun News said "The finest AKM-type semioutomatic-only rifle every manufactured....". They were speaking of the Arsenal SLR-106FR. I thought it was sorta pricey.

dstorm1911
July 23, 2007, 12:41 AM
Guntech, man that looks EXACTLY like Arizona............. minus the green stuff on the ground ;) My backyard is 5,000 acres of BLM land so settin up 1500 yard shoots is no difficult task, we can run out to 800 and still be on my property I use trailer mounted target stands we can tow out into the BLM land behind ATVs for longer ranges.....



As long as ya get your hands on the rifles ya are intrested in anything that FEELS good to you will be all ya need....

GunTech
July 23, 2007, 01:03 AM
Ummmmm, yer not in Afghanistan, nor is anyone here.

That was in reply to your contention that military rifles were being used only at short range. Military small arms are used at greater ranges than the 50 yards you claim. You need to rwad posts in their entirety, digest them, write a replay, and then read your reply before you post

most people on gun boards talk like society is going to collapse tomorrow, and youll be shooting the old lady down the street at 300 yards from your rooftop in order to protect your collection of Cambells soup supply from being raided.

You need to actually read the posts. I said I wanted something suitable for plinking and shooting rodents, and to have one before they are banned. I have no idea where you are getting this post-collapse stuff. If you can't add something germain and useful to the discussion, why are you bothering to post? I am here for information about currently manufacturer AKs. I already know what I want. As a graduate of the Ft Benning school for boys (MOS 11B) and former Infantry officer, I know something about military small arms and how they are utilized.

If you'd like to offer your own observations, based on time spent in the service, or even from various tactical matches you compete it, please feel free to do so. If you are going to offer opinions based on books you read or material gleaned from the internet, please get the facts right.

As noted, anyone who wants to discuss the realitys of modern small arms combat should at least be familiar with the Hitchman report, for a start. You can find extended excepts in "The Great Rifle Controversy", "SPIW:The Deadliest Weapon that Never Was", "The Black Rifle" and "US rifle M14" for starters. You may also wish to review the ALCLAD study, as well as the ACR tests from the 1980s. IIRC, Duncan long has numerous quotes in his book on future rifles.

GunTech
July 23, 2007, 01:07 AM
M2pilot.

Thanks. That is the gist I am getting. Almost $1k is more than I expected to pay for an AK, but as noted, it's just to have an AK, not for any specific purpose (other than for blasting gophers). My goto rifle is an M1A 'loaded' with a 2.5-10x Nikon Tactical. It also serves as a nice deer gun. I have a AR for carbine matches, although it might be fun to take an AK.

Thanks everyone for all the input.

Bartholomew Roberts
July 23, 2007, 01:54 AM
ancient_philosophy has determined that he would prefer to participate at some other firearms forum and will not be responding further, so... if we can get the thread back on track...

Prince Yamato
July 23, 2007, 02:40 AM
You need to actually read the posts. I said I wanted something suitable for plinking and shooting rodents, and to have one before they are banned. I have no idea where you are getting this post-collapse stuff

I'd just drop $400-600 on a Vector or Lancaster AK-47 in 7.62x39. I know you have .223, but just get the AK chambered in the round it was built for. No frills, iron sights, fixed stocks. You'll hit what you're aiming at. I can guarantee, an average shot will hit center of mass at 200 yards, easily.

My theory is people who say that AKs are inaccurate never took the time to adjust the iron sights. For what it's worth, I through a variable 4-12x scope on my AK-74 (used side-rail attachment). I don't think it made a difference. I still shoot the same. I used to have a red/green dot on it. I was better with the irons.

Millions of soldiers/rebels/freedom fighters/insurgents/whomever carry stock AKs for a reason: they're accurate and they work.

MD_Willington
July 23, 2007, 03:34 AM
+1 for Will at Red Stick.. he has a general Saiga conversion for about $590, and he can put a '74 style break on it for you for a bit extra...

You'd end up with a Izhmash AKM pattern rifle...

I just did my own... good enough for what I need.

oh and BTW...

there's a guy at the Saiga forum shooting clover leafs with hand loads, check out his posts in the .223 section...

Roccobro
July 23, 2007, 03:54 AM
Actually, the folder shown is fine. I mean those crappy wire side and under folders one see's on AKs that so many people think are cool.

Sounds like you've made your decision. :)

I'm kinda looking for an AK myself and wanted to know what's specifically "crappy" about the wire side/under folders. I'm one of those that think the Yugo underfolders look cool. But I would like to learn the facts. :D

Justin

Ithaca37
July 23, 2007, 08:52 AM
what's specifically "crappy" about the wire side/under folders

They don't hold up. They are uncomfortable. They are pretty much bent coat hangers.

GunTech
July 23, 2007, 10:30 AM
Just visited Red Stick. Many interesting goodies there. How do you rate Red Stick against Arsenal? I see both an AK101 and an AK-103 in 223, although the prices aren't much cheaper than Arsenal.

Unfortunately, no one stocks this type of rifle around here, so I can't really look before I buy.

Father Knows Best
July 23, 2007, 10:48 AM
My theory is people who say that AKs are inaccurate never took the time to adjust the iron sights.
I'll second that. Just last week, I took a buddy out to the range. He brought along an SKS that he said "wouldn't shoot." We put some BIG targets at 25 and 50 yards, and he couldn't get it on paper (I was plinking with my Arsenal AK at the time). He told me thought the sights were bent or crooked or something. I asked to shoot it, and immediately realized he had the rear sight set at 400 meters. I adjusted the slider, took aim, and promptly printed a nice little group of 5 shots in the center of the target at 50 yards.

dstorm1911
July 23, 2007, 11:22 AM
Roccobro, I'll steal a second here in Guntechs thread, When it comes to the underfolders While I have several examples from each country that ever produced em I've never really cared for them, they are in the collection just to complete the collection (I have examples of every AK ever produced including 3 original registered viet bring backs) however when I built the first Yugo I wasn't looking for anything different just needed a few for the collection the fixed stock versions were going to be my shooter rifles........ well I finished the first and shouldered it expecting the same flimsy loosness and the same horrible lack of cheek weld etc... but instead it was really comfortable and my eyes fell right into alignment with the sights! I lowered it and gave it a look, my partner was in the shop at the time and I handed it to him he is a big AR fan but the old guy did the same thing lowered it and gave it a second look we couldn't figure it out till he went and got a couple Norinco UFs and a Polish outa the safe..... the Yugo stock is a straight line with the bore axis and its a tad longer than the rest, how tight it is will depend on the care given to assembly all of mine are rock solid folded or extended but then I start with virgin parts and when I machine the stock holes in the rear trunion I cut em very tight and lap fit the locking pins etc...

Now after over 200 built (12 are in my personal collection) that very first M70B2 built from a used parts set (I didn't get to do the mill work on its trunions but they are still tight) It has become my constant companion while patroling our lil corner of hell, our property sits dead in the middle of the route used to smuggle drugs and illegals into Arizona) the UF works perfectly as I can leave it folded and slung across my back while running a 500 Husky 2 stroke cross country frequently jumping washes (Arizonian for a dry creek or river bed) or zig zagging through Cactus patches etc... its got just over 8,000 rnds through it now and is still as tight as the day I built it.

Its a preferance thing some like me before trying the M70B2 cannot stand Folders others love em ya needa try a few and see how they feel to you for me it makes the perfect carry around rifle as its very compact when folded I can even slip it into the saddle bags on my Harley, it carries very nice on sling but in a half second its ready to go as a full length rifle. I match it with a 5" Springfield armory XD .40 Tactical while out runnin around on the dirt bike or in the sand rail (the .40 with 165s is much flatter shooting than my .45s at extended ranges we encounter out here) plus I'm packin the gun designed by both sides in the Serbian/Croation war ;) The Serbs designed the M70AB2 the Croations designed the original HS2000 both guns were born of combat needs and combat tough useing the best designs each could find to incorporate into their respective weapons etc.... and both have never let me down regardless how much Arizona sand gets in em or how many times they go down with me and that bike when I mis-judge the opposite banks durability while jumping washes the AK and XD both always have one in the tube but have never been a safty issue......

Expertowgunner
July 23, 2007, 12:13 PM
Get a VEPR if you can find one, but if not get a arsenal ak. They are the best aks ever imported. shot both and both are at least accurate with me anyway to about 1-2 moa at 100 yards from a bench with open sites. the vepr has adjustments for windage on the rear sight which allows for better sighting theoritically but never used it. put a eotech or aimpoint on it and rok and roll!!

Expertowgunner
July 23, 2007, 12:23 PM
quick note on underfolders.... dont get them. The thin sheet metal stock will actually BEND over time do to shooting the 7.62 and its pounding to it. why do you think the russkies and the chinese both replaced this design with a side folding tube stock. also the yugo rifles have stainless steel barrels.... chrome barrels means longer barrel life and a much more reliable weapon. not dogging the yugos, im just trying to inform the uninformed.

TOU
July 23, 2007, 02:37 PM
I thought that was Will at Redjacket, no? Anyway, Redjacket does seems to do some of the best Saiga conversions to your customized taste for reasonable prices. BTW Saiga's are considered some of the best AK's (when converted...especialy for the cost and then some) Especially...since Arsenal isn't doing the milled receivers much anymore...They are also 100% Russian and old Uncle Mikail is still consulting with IZHMASH-Saiga's. Nice rigs...I bought 7 of them to put away...in all calibers including the 12 Ga shotties.

As to folding stocks...I sure like an ACE I have on my Daewoo DR-200 but am considering putting one or two on my Saiga's. I like the Arsenal style, but unless you have the locking latch on the side for that style folder (PITA to install post...but Arsenals already have them) they are a pain when folded and tend to flop. I personally like the folders to lock up solid the way the ACE's do when folded or open. JMHO Now...if some one in the US would put a locking mechanism on the hinge...that would be the cat's meow.

MD_Willington
July 23, 2007, 02:42 PM
Red Stick Firearms LLC, Home of Red Jacket Firearms...

Says so right at the top of their web page...


html>

<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Language" content="en-us">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<title>Welcome to Red Stick Firearms, Home of Red Jacket Firearms</title>
<style>


Will's handle at the Saiga Forum and elsewhere is "Red Jacket"

TOU
July 23, 2007, 02:45 PM
Cool...thx for the clarification...it always confused me.

MudPuppy
July 23, 2007, 02:59 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=290869

I built mine as a fixed stock and love it (its the one in the middle).

nalioth
July 23, 2007, 07:15 PM
Red Stick is english for Baton Rouge, where Will works.

dawgtraxx
July 23, 2007, 07:36 PM
I already have her pegged as soup pirate when the SHTF. She's dead meat

now that is funny..LMAO

MIL-DOT
July 23, 2007, 08:07 PM
prince yamato took the words right out of my mouth.......
"I'd just drop $400-600 on a Vector or Lancaster AK-47 in 7.62x39. I know you have .223, but just get the AK chambered in the round it was built for. No frills, iron sights, fixed stocks. You'll hit what you're aiming at. I can guarantee, an average shot will hit center of mass at 200 yards, easily. "

i got a lancaster x39 romy G model several weeks ago, and am most happy with it. chrome bore,matching serial numbers, head spaced and test fired, parkerizing then gun-kote finish, great job on the firniture, for $499. shot straight as an arrow right out of the box.

Sonora Rebel
July 23, 2007, 08:19 PM
"quick note on underfolders.... dont get them. The thin sheet metal stock will actually BEND over time do to shooting the 7.62 and its pounding to it. why do you think the russkies and the chinese both replaced this design with a side folding tube stock."

BS! It's cheaper and easier to produce a side folder than the underfolder. My 7.62x39 AK came with an underfolder 'n it's goin' on 22 years of bein' dragged from pillar to post w/no change to the geometry of the stock at all. The AK doesn't have that much recoil.

HorseSoldier
July 23, 2007, 08:32 PM
Just visited Red Stick. Many interesting goodies there. How do you rate Red Stick against Arsenal? I see both an AK101 and an AK-103 in 223, although the prices aren't much cheaper than Arsenal.

Has anyone suggested checking Krebs Custom Rifles yet? If you're looking for an accurate AK pattern rifle, and can handle their price tag (basically AR-15 sort of prices), they're the way to go. Easy to deal with, as well.

AndyC
July 23, 2007, 08:56 PM
I quite like underfolders, actually (not all of the stocks are fragile), but if I had the choice again I wouldn't use one for business. My reasons are: the stock is more cumbersome to deploy from the folded position as opposed to a side-folder - and you can forget about deploying the stock with a drum-mag attached.

MD_Willington
July 23, 2007, 09:12 PM
You could go with Krebs, but Krebs does the same thing as Will, take a Saiga or VEPR and convert it...

However...

Krebs is the cheapest source of OEM Saiga magazines.

I picked up my 10 round Saiga mags for $18.00 a piece instead of $25-30 from Krebs.

BTW


Bâton rouge, oui je comprends ce que signifie il, je parle assez français pour comprendre. J'étais sous l'impression que ce serait usefull les forces armées du Canada.

SpeedAKL
July 23, 2007, 10:19 PM
A buddy of mine is getting ready to buy an AK, and I'll probly try and pick one up in the next year (partially as a hedge against a Democrat win in '08). Most of the ones in local gun shops are Romanian WASRs that start around $400; some Yugoslavians and Hungarians pop up now and then and are slightly pricier. How do the AKs from these three countries stack up?

MIL-DOT
July 23, 2007, 10:41 PM
though the russian, polish, chinese and bulgarians seem to have the best reputations,i'm sure many will agree, it's not so much as which country produced the parts, but who built the rifle. the $400 rifles seen in gunstores everywhere are often built by century, and they're almost universally considered about as bad as it gets. sure, they're stiil AK's, and they'll shoot when you pull the trigger, but for a few more bucks you can easily do lots better.

MudPuppy
July 23, 2007, 10:49 PM
The romanian wasr's are about the lowest quality AK you'll find. I had one and it shot fine, so I'm not necessarily knocking it, but it's not as nice as the others. The finish on the furniture was horrid (but sure didn't mind dinging that gun...) and had to file the reciever before it'd seat a drum.

I like the hungarian types, I have an AMD 63 that's a nice shooter and a couple of '65s that are also nice (but not crazy about those side folder stocks specific to the 65s).

I think a Yugo (assuming similar shape) is about as nice as they come. They have (well, most do) the RPK style heavy front trunnion (like a vepr) and heavier recievers. They just feel a little beefier. Most Yugos don't come with chrome lined barrels--that's a big turn off to a lot of folks, but not as big a deal to me. I think my 223 variants all have chromed anyhow.

If you're worried about a gun ban, make sure you spend equal money on the fight (donate to goa or jpfo). :D

dstorm1911
July 23, 2007, 11:19 PM
UHHH Our new friend hasn't seen many Yugo's they don't have stainless barrels they do have non-chrome barrels man would it be nice if they did have stainless ones the ultimate in corrosion resistance, they do have stainless bolts and bolt carriers and in the case of new built in USA Yugos they have a brand spankin new Green mountain match grade hammer forged barrel. Which outa last anyone who knows how to actually clean a rifle about 20,000+ rnds Particularily since no corrosive 7.62x39 ammo has been imported since the last surplus which was Yugo the last shipment came in 2004 and if anyone finds anymore of it ALOTA folks will pay top $$ it was some really nice ammo and very accurate. Otherwise unless ya are sittin on 45,000 rnds of Norinco steel core bought up in the late 80s at $0.55 cents per 20 like some of us ;) ya'll never need to worry bout corrosive ammo other than the occasional falsly marked lots of Wolf from time to time but..... well the AK gas system isn't chrome lined so if your not properly cleanin your rifle your still screwed even if ya do have a chrome lined bore :)

From Guntechs pics I'd say he knows about cleanin a weapon if not...... your gonna needa re-visit the Artillery "ponds" out back of Benning ....... got a screamin chicken tat literally one week before they sent me to BRAGG!!! wanna talk bout livin life hard? ;)

Roccobro
July 24, 2007, 01:33 AM
Thanks to all for the schooling gentlemen! I've my decision now too. :)

Justin

dstorm1911
July 24, 2007, 01:58 AM
BTW, The only thing I don't really like about my sidefolders is that they can only be carried one way when folded otherwise the folded stock digs into your back while the underfolder can be slung with the butt to the left or right side and an added bonus if ya ride a quade or dirt bike etc... the underfolders rear trunion won't tear of the rear of the seat like the tang on a side folder ....... ya really REALLY don't wanna try riding a quade or bike with a fixed stock slung across your back especially not a dirt bike the stock is down right dangerouse and a source of constant distraction and restricted movement etc... oh yea and an underfolder can be carried right or left with single point sling without the stock getting in the way...... side folder ya are limited to non-stock side bein against your body while folded, the underfolder ya can leave the stock folded for close quarters and actually use a tight sling to stabalize the rifle for accurate aimed fire if your in a hurry..... no need to extend the stock with just a lil practice usein the sling pushing the rifle away from you it will become just as steady as a stocked rifle, a red dot will make it a very fast gopher buster ;)

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