Hi Point or AK


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Aaryq
July 22, 2007, 05:06 PM
Howdy folks. What rifle would you prefer, a Hi-Point 9mm or an AK? The intended purpose would be to hit paper and have fun. The secondary purpose would be hunting (the AK) and HD (the Hi Point). Don't worry about the CA location thingy, disregard that.

*ETA* Disregard the CA location thing because once I purchase the "assault weapons" I want and keep them at my father's house in ND, I will send in my California Out of State Military Assault weapons permit. Then bring them out to California where I can LEGALLY own and posess them.

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Bazooka Joe71
July 22, 2007, 05:07 PM
LOL

This is a joke, right?

Aaryq
July 22, 2007, 05:12 PM
No joke. I'm just curious what THR thinks on the subject and why they think that.

JWarren
July 22, 2007, 05:13 PM
Answering the question of Hi-Point verses AK purely on the merit of the firearms... AK.

It's entirely up to you to be compliant to the laws in the Republic of **********. No one here will endorse nor encourage breaking the laws -- even if it is to save their own butts from liability.


Luck to ya.

-- John

Aaryq
July 22, 2007, 05:13 PM
No joke. I'm just curious what THR thinks on the subject and why they think that.

JWarren
July 22, 2007, 05:14 PM
Bah.... double tap. Appologies.

DoubleTapDrew
July 22, 2007, 05:22 PM
Everyone needs an AK

Technosavant
July 22, 2007, 05:28 PM
Of the two, AK. The High-Point seems like it would be fun (personally, if they ever come out with a .45 carbine, I'll be off to the gunstore cash in hand), but for range shooting, hunting, and defensive reasons, it bests the HP in every category.

Frog48
July 22, 2007, 05:30 PM
AK's are a ton of fun!

ohioarmedneutrality
July 22, 2007, 06:20 PM
Get an AK first, then save up the money to get a Hi-Point later. Who says you can't have both?

Titan6
July 22, 2007, 06:22 PM
A pistol caliber carbine does not really compare well to an AK. The AK has it beat in every single regard except price and the price is not that much higher ($200).

That said if you can afford it get both. The carbine is a fun gun to shoot and serves well for HD.

SaMx
July 22, 2007, 06:24 PM
yeah, I would go for the AK

bartsimpson123844
July 22, 2007, 07:31 PM
Hunting with an AK? What? No, you cannot hunt with an AK unless you get one of the more accurate AK's. This is just my opinion, though. It justs sounds crazy. I have never seen or heard anyone hunt with an AK.

nalioth
July 22, 2007, 07:38 PM
There is no comparison.

AK all the way.

Use the other-choice-thing for a boat anchor.

JWarren
July 22, 2007, 07:42 PM
bartsimpson123844 wrote:


Hunting with an AK? What? No, you cannot hunt with an AK unless you get one of the more accurate AK's. This is just my opinion, though. It justs sounds crazy. I have never seen or heard anyone hunt with an AK.


Hi... no offense, but you should do a few searches on this board and other "gun" boards. MANY people have taken deer with an AK.

--I have taken deer with a Vector 7.62x39 Underfolder.

--I have taken deer with a home-built Romanain "G" 7.62x39 built on a Nodak Spud receiver.

--I have taken deer with a <gasp!> Century Arms SAR-1 7.62x39

--I have taken deer with a Saiga 308-1 in 7.62x51 NATO (.308 Win)


And it's not because I don't have "better" rifles to use. My primary hunting rifle has been a Remington 700 in 30-06. I find that the AK in 7.62x39 is an excellent "brush" rifle where my shots are closer. I use those when hunting stands I have on trails and rutting areas. For longer shots, I prefer a full-sized cartridge. For stands on our fields, the Saiga 308-1 fits the bill nicely. Last season, I took an eight-point at 289 yards with a single heart-shot using the Saiga.

Incidently, none of the deer I dropped with either the 7.62x39 or the 7.62x51 required a second shot or tracking the animal. Nice, clean, and quick-- which is what I strive for.

No offense, but I hope I've expanded the horizons of your opinion regarding hunting from a Kalishakov platform.



-- John

W.E.G.
July 22, 2007, 07:43 PM
As stated above, AK vs. Hi-Point -- NO COMPARISON.

Clipper
July 22, 2007, 07:54 PM
I have both. Both are inexpensive, both are fun and easy to shoot, with little recoil. Both of mine have red dot sights and are great for beginners because they're easy to hit with. Plinking ammo is slightly cheaper for the 9mm, but I wouldn't want to shoot deer sized game much beyond 50-75 yards with the right bullets and good shot placement, whereas the AK is much better suited to the deer size game hunting role. The HP has been much more (like 100%) reliable than the AK, but it's new and not fully broken in yet.

ancient_philosophy
July 22, 2007, 08:05 PM
hi point VS an AK???????? what the hey?????:scrutiny: :scrutiny: :scrutiny: :scrutiny: :scrutiny: :scrutiny: :scrutiny:


....."hey, which is better? A wet dogpile or a ham sandwhich?"


the "Ghetto Fantastic HI POINT"...... the ONE GUN that is the butt of all gun stores, everywhere.

say hi point in a gun shop, .....50% laughs.......50% 'what the hell' look :scrutiny: :evil:

cracked butt
July 22, 2007, 08:50 PM
AK- no contest. A friend of mine and I were shooting our EBRs today, After shooing his WASR, I NEED to get one of those:cool:

Monkeybear
July 22, 2007, 11:01 PM
I have heard, around the gunshops, more than a few times of people who hunt just fine with an AK. I think people take the AK's reputation for inaccuracy too far. They may not be as accurate as other rifles but watch anyone who knows what they are doing shoot an AK, they hit where they aim.

I would get an AK. It will hold its value, shoots a rifle round and has a great history behind it. Hi-points are fine and all but I would take an AK over one any day.

22_Shooter
July 22, 2007, 11:05 PM
A-frickin-K:D

Aaryq
July 22, 2007, 11:31 PM
Well what about for pure range fun? Still the AK? I mean, I already own a pistol in 9mm so I'd save on the ammo costs, right? I'm interested to see if anyone would choose a Hi-Point and why they would.

-gunut-
July 23, 2007, 12:00 AM
AK without question... :what:

bartsimpson123844
July 23, 2007, 12:09 AM
JWarren- Oh, I didn't realize people actually hunted with them. Sorry, I guess I didn't think before I posted. Now I realize that the AK could be a good platform for a decent brush or truck gun.

Clipper
July 23, 2007, 12:22 AM
Well, for pure range fun, 100 yards and less, My Hi-Point with ATI stock and reflex red dot is more fun, easier shooting, less expensive, and is loads more fun for women, kids and noobs...I bought the AK more because I was worried about availability in the future, than because I really wanted it. And the HP goes bang EVERY TIME, no fail...My AK hasn't gotten to that point yet.

rugerdude
July 23, 2007, 12:24 AM
Okay, time for me to give the Hi-point its props.

It is light, and a joy to shoot. The sights are superior to those of the AK, and it is shorter and "handier." It fires a much cheaper round than the AK and 9mm can be found much more easily than decent priced 7.62x39.

That said, the AK will do everything the hi-point can and at longer range with a higher mag capactiy. I don't like Hi-point bashing (actually, it's okay to bash the pistols) but the AK really does beat it in every category.

The Hi-point owner who's friend has an AK has spoken, and he is jealous of his friend's AK.

evan price
July 23, 2007, 12:48 AM
I guess the real question is, what do you want to use the gun for?

Comparing a pistol-caliber carbine to a intermediate cartridge fullsize rifle is like comparing apples to potatoes. Kind of a silly question.

If you want to go blasting cheap ammo at 100 yards or less get the Hi-point. Despite what hundreds of Innernet parrots squawkingly repeat at the drop of a hat, Hi-Point guns are not as bad as their reputation, and their carbines are even better than that. My only dislike is the styling is too sci-fi and the magazines are 10-round max. Personally I would get a Kel-Tec Sub-Rifle 2000 instead of a Hi-point if I wanted a pistol-caliber carbine because you can use standard pistol mags from various makers in it (including the 33-rd Glock 18 mags). Either way, 9mm out of a 16" barrel has the same ballistics as a .357Magnum & a lot more accuracy than a pistol due to the long barrel. Nothing to sneeze at.

If you want a higher power rifle that is more conventional, feeds a heavier cartridge and takes longer shots (say, 300 yards) then the AK is for you. The ammo is more expensive and the rifle is heavier. There's nothing else like an AK.

The better question for you to ask yourself is: What do YOU need your rifle to do?

In a recent family/friends range outing, there was a 9mm K-T Sub2K with Glock 18 mags, a nice AK, a Galil, an FN-FAL, and a variety of milsurp boltys. We went through a solid 1000 rounds of 9mm, ran out of 9mm actually, people were standing in line to shoot the KelTec, and other range users came by to fondle it and brought their own 9mm so they could shoot it. The Ak was the third most popular gun there but we took ammo home for it. The second most popular gun there was a Colt HBAR national match with a 20" heavy barrel upper. Again, we shot about 300 rounds through it.

chris in va
July 23, 2007, 01:00 AM
I've had a HiPoint 9mm for 3 years and an SKS.

My advice, get a Saiga for $275. Lighter than an SKS, can be 'converted' to AK form and done much cheaper than an Arsenal for $700. My HiPoint has snapped a couple parts off and been sent back to the factory 3 times.

Kilgor
July 23, 2007, 01:03 AM
9mm isn't much cheaper.

7.62x39 1,000 rounds = $170

9mm 1,000 rounds = $150

zoom6zoom
July 23, 2007, 01:07 AM
Oh, I didn't realize people actually hunted with them.

Zumbo made the same mistake about AR's...

benEzra
July 23, 2007, 07:54 AM
One big question would be where do you plan to shoot it?

A 9mm carbine can be used at an indoor pistol range, but most such ranges would exclude rifle caliber firearms.

The 9mm is smaller, lighter, and handier, somewhat quieter compared to 7.62x39mm, and recoil is practically nil. It is also less powerful, has less effective range, and (to my eye) doesn't look as good. The AK is an excellent carbine, but the sights aren't the best (the short sight radius doesn't help), recoil is not bad but much more noticeable than 9mm, it is bigger and heavier, etc.

My SAR-1 is my favorite rifle, but it wears a Kobra (collimator sight, i.e. tubeless red dot, with multiple reticles). I'd enjoy shooting it less if I were stuck with the factory sights.

I suppose you'd want to think about what you want to do with it. Also, I would handle both of them in the store, and see which one feels more comfortable.

Ithaca37
July 23, 2007, 08:09 AM
the magazines are 10-round max

He is from **********. So it doesn't make a difference.

JWarren
July 23, 2007, 08:37 AM
bartsimpson123844 wrote:

JWarren- Oh, I didn't realize people actually hunted with them. Sorry, I guess I didn't think before I posted. Now I realize that the AK could be a good platform for a decent brush or truck gun.

No worries my friend. It is a common misconception. One can basically look at a 7.62x39 (with hunting as opposed to FMJ ammunition) as filling the same slot a 30-30 would fill-- and probably more deer have been taken with a 30-30 than any other caliber.


On a side note, AK's poor accuracy is overblown. There are basically 2 (in my opinion) major factors that contribute to inaccuracy in AKs: The iron sights and the trigger.

Iron sights are not a real issue. If someone wants better accuracy from their iron sights, Mojo makes a great replacement that will tighten groups significantly. Heck, considering that my Remington 700 doesnt' even have iron sights, I barely consider them part of a firearm. If anything, they are a factory installed "accessory."

Triggers are a different matter-- and largely a personal choice. Some learn their trigger and BECOME accurate with the one they were given. Others can install RAA adjustable triggers with good results. My first deer was taken with a HK-91 that had a trigger like a child's cap gun. Because I was a kid, and there were not any other options, I learned that crappy trigger and became accurate with the firearm. It can be done.

While I wholy concure that the 7.62x39 in an AK platform is a good truck gun or brush hunting rifle, this is largely a limitation of the caliber. Again, I'd use 7.62x39 in any role I'd use a 30-30 and would not use the AK in any role that a 30-30 would be passed over for.

In 308 win., My Saiga has proven to be an accurate and capable rifle to any distance I've taken game with a bolt action. With optics, it is pulling 1-1.5 MOA groups. Or course, I can do better with a quality bolt action, but it's still in the vitals.


The main thing is getting to know a rifle and its capabilities and determine if you are comfortable with it. As Zumbo seems to be learning, there's more than one way to skin a cat. (who the hell came up with that phrase anyway?-- and why would anyone want to skin a cat???)



-- John

benEzra
July 23, 2007, 10:27 AM
He is from **********. So it doesn't make a difference.
I don't believe either the Hi-Point or any AK lookalike is legal in California unless you owned it prior to the ban.

That brought to mind one thing in the original post, though:

*ETA* Disregard the CA location thing because once I purchase the "assault weapons" I want and keep them at my father's house in ND, I will send in my California Out of State Military Assault weapons permit. Then bring them out to California where I can LEGALLY own and posess them.
I don't think you can legally purchase long guns out of state under California law (I *think* Federal law allows states to allow it--I may be wrong--but would be surprised if California allowed it), but I am not an expert on Cali gun laws. (I trust you've looked into the legalities of this?)

22_Shooter
July 23, 2007, 10:40 AM
+1 on going the Saiga route. I just got mine last week (7.62x39) for $324 OTD. Still unconverted as of now, but will make it's way to AK status soooooon.:D

BillinNH
July 23, 2007, 10:41 AM
quote: (who the hell came up with that phrase anyway?-- and why would anyone want to skin a cat???)

It originally referred to removing the skin from a catfish prior to cooking it.

Bill

Expertowgunner
July 23, 2007, 11:09 AM
Is this a joke!? Go with a ak!! ive shot a hi point carbine in 9mm and was very unimpressed. The finish, stock, and overall design of the rifle sucks and when the guy let me shoot it tried to do a "tactical" reload, the POS jammed, and he had trouble getting it undone. As a proud own of a mak-90 and a Rob arms vepr in 7.62x39, they are far superior to any hp!! (Vepr is THE best ak on the market, except for some of the arsenal aks)

Kilgor
July 23, 2007, 01:53 PM
I don't think you can legally purchase long guns out of state under California law (I *think* Federal law allows states to allow it--I may be wrong--but would be surprised if California allowed it), but I am not an expert on Cali gun laws. (I trust you've looked into the legalities of this?)

California cannot stop you from buying a long gun in a state which will allow you to purchase it. They can however not allow you to bring it into California. You can still own it though...

Man... California is F'd up.

supraneurotoxin
July 23, 2007, 02:05 PM
hmm... were hi-points ever relied on by an actual military force? that would be enough to influence my decision.
most widely recognized assault rifle in the world vs. chunky POS.
that being said, I have both, and my WASR 10 is a heck of a lot more fun then the hi-point.

wdlsguy
July 23, 2007, 02:06 PM
California cannot stop you from buying a long gun in a state which will allow you to purchase it.
True, but federal law says you can't buy a gun out of state that isn't legal in your home state.

...
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
...
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States...

18 USC 922 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html)

Don't Tread On Me
July 23, 2007, 02:09 PM
LOL

This is a joke, right?



HAHA, took the words out of my mouth.


Imagine if M. Kalashnikov read this thread - he'd keel over dead that his rifle, perhaps the greatest firearm invented in the 20th century is being compared to a hipoint.


:)

Kilgor
July 23, 2007, 02:30 PM
I stand corrected wdlsguy. Yuck.

forrestdweller
July 23, 2007, 02:50 PM
Not a good comparison but give the Hi-point its due.
It weights 5.75 pounds AK-47 8.3. The 995 carbine is 32.5 inches long. the Ak 35 inches. The 995 can be fired one handed by a normal person. The ak is a little more difficult. You can reload the 995 faster and in a battery position to be back on target sooner. The AK limited in CAlly to 10 rounds is the same maga capacity as the 995. In a urban or heavy wood situation over 100 yards shot would be the exception.
Personally in my piney woods I will be running around with my SAR-1 with its 30 round magazines but if scouting around and in the trunk of a vehicle the 995 fits a nice useful nitch

kBob
July 23, 2007, 03:29 PM
BillinNH,

More than one way to skin a cat? I was told that it is atleast as old as the Thirty Years War of the early-mid 1600.

As late as the 1980's anyone selling a butchered rabbit in Bavaria and Hesse at least had to display the carcas un quartered with the furry little feet still attached because historically when ever rabbit got scarce greedy butchers would skin cats, remove the feet and heads, hack them up and sell them as rabbit.

At least that's what one German gastehous owner told me after I finshed my rabbit and commented on seeing the bunny feet on carcasses down in the local Metzgerie.

Oh yeah and to the original thread starter.......

HiPoint vs AK.....

Whatever blows your skirts up. As to the arguement about military adoption......I've heard of no US police departments purchasing any model of AK for patrol rifles. I understand HiPoint has made department sales and continues to in both calibers.

I live out in the five acres and larger rural area and still I think I would rather see my average neighbor trying to defend himself with the Pistol Caliber carbines than an AK in 7.62x39, 5.45x39 or 5.56 NATO.

I also would rather see a HiPoint stollen from a car than an AK.

I think most folks even in non stressfull times would be on higher alert seeing a young buck with a military style AK than a HiPoint Carbine. The AK is so recognizable and associated with bad guys and bad deeds that I might consider that if all I really wanted was a plinker and HD gun.

If I had to choose one to go to war with, well yes I would pick an AK, but for Plinking, bumming around, a car gun or even Home Defense I might look real hard at the HiPoint myself. I have only little experience with the guns having shot only a few rounds from two 9s when they first came out. Looked fun, less recoil and less noise. I imagine they have less flash at night as well but have no experience to back it up. Loaded up with something Marshall and Sanow rate at 80 percent or better from a handgun I doubt they would be anything to sneeze at inside just about anyone's house.

Handle both, heft both, convince everyone you are a know nothing noob by throwing them up to shoulder point a few times (with a mag in the AK), shoot them it you have a range that does rentals or can fire even a few rounds at the range, then decide. If you aren't happy with your choice keep saving and use that puppy as a trade in on something in the future.

No one here has to live with your choice or knows what is best for you.....even (don't tell anyone) me.

-Bob Hollingsworth

fletcher
July 23, 2007, 03:33 PM
Personally, I would buy an AK.

Nameless_Hobo
July 23, 2007, 07:11 PM
Ak. No question. The AK will feed you, protect you and will be much more effective than a pistol caliber. It's also just as fun.

Aaryq
July 23, 2007, 10:04 PM
I guess the real question is, what do you want to use the gun for?
Comparing a pistol-caliber carbine to a intermediate cartridge fullsize rifle is like comparing apples to potatoes. Kind of a silly question.


The intended purpose would be to hit paper and have fun.

I want to cheaply and effectively shoot targets and the occasional little critter once I go back to the farm.

*Critter=little animals smaller than a 'yote

~Sub question: Would a 9mm out of a carbine work at yotes? if so, at what range?

Kilgor
July 23, 2007, 10:35 PM
I'd be comfortable with 9mm out of a carbine on coyotes using 124-147 grain hollow points as far as I could keep all rounds in the chest... say a 6" circle. So probably inside 100 yards would be a go for me.

full metal
July 23, 2007, 10:46 PM
Ak-47 Nuff Said

bensdad
July 24, 2007, 12:43 AM
The OP asked about shooting paper and having fun. Also, HD and hunting small critters (yotes). As long as we're talking about less than 100 yds or so, the Hi Point is hands-down. It's lighter. It's cheaper. It's cheaper to feed. It's shorter. It's unstoppable.* When it's not a gun, its a good club.

*I have limited experience with Hi Points. I only have one, and it's a 9mmComp. About 4 or 5 thousand rds no problems.

Kilgor
July 24, 2007, 12:56 AM
9mm isn't much cheaper.

7.62x39 1,000 rounds = $170

9mm 1,000 rounds = $150

Gaucho Gringo
July 24, 2007, 01:35 AM
I would buy the High Point over the AK. The High Point is American made at a good price, shoots ammo that you can buy anywhere and has a lifetime warranty. It may be a little ugly but to me all autos & semi autos are ugly, just my personal opinion as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The High Point is ugly to me but it does have it's redeeming qualities in my opinion.

Aaryq
July 24, 2007, 09:37 PM
What do you want to look for in an AK? I mean there's a million manufacturers out there that sell a million different AK's in the US? I'm far from an expert on either gun, but with all of the different AK's out there, it's very confusing.

Kilgor
July 25, 2007, 01:41 AM
What do you want in an AK?

Cheaply finished or nicely finished?

Inexpensive or accurate?

Fixed stock or folder?

Most will be very reliable.

TheDisturbed1
July 25, 2007, 02:28 AM
say hi point in a gun shop, .....50% laughs.......50% 'what the hell' look

been there done that! hahaha

Totally. no question. Go for the AK!

I have one. I want another. and they are affordable for their quality level and they ALWAYS go boom and send the projectile flying in the direction you have the muzzle pointed. I cant say the same for my Hi-Point

Kilgor
July 25, 2007, 02:50 AM
Arctic Assault,

I don't own a Highpoint carbine, but people that own them almost to a person describe them as both affordable and reliable. I would not let my distaste for Highpoint handguns color my thoughts about their carbines.

mfetty77
July 25, 2007, 03:03 AM
High point rifles are POS. You couldn't give me one. We had one and every mag you had to take it apart. The firing pin kept bending, made of very cheap metal. Can't go wrong with the AK, don't care who made it.

dstorm1911
July 25, 2007, 03:15 AM
I don't know its just something bout Zinc pot metal castings and plastic versus actual 4130 hardened steel and wood......

I was once setting up to head back to Arizona from Oregon a few years back in my 71 Blazer which is all custom built (have had it for 27 years) I needed to replace the tires before I left as it was winter and the passes were snowed in etc... well its running 35x12.5x16" rubber on 1 ton axles etc.. so ya don't find em just everywhere.... every tire shop I asked kept tryin to sell me on the warrantee even though I kept tellin em I don't care about the warranty I want the toughest rubber ya got the warranty isn't going to do me a bit of good in the middle of a blizard 100 miles from nowhere on a closed pass or 300 miles out in the desert alone etc... Most just couldn't understand why the warrantee would do me no good when my life depended on it....... Finally a LesSchabs installer rolled out some "Wild countries" custom designed for runnin the logging roads with extra heavy sidwalls to resist tree stumps and a very aggressive tread etc...... just finally wore em out after 5 years of hard use and many miles running offroad with only 10 psi of air in em etc..... never have had a single flat!


Many gun companies will push a lifetime warranty etc..... it will mean absolutally nothing to ya when the moment comes that your life depends on the rifle and it fails.......... are they gonna have mercs follow ya around to protect ya as part of that warranty or will ya be on your own with just their warranty and chunk of pot metal and plastic when it counts?

AK47 designed to outlast 10 soldiers and still be cutup and shipped to the USA as a parts set only to be reassembled so it can outlast 10 more owners.....

A carbine in a pistol caliber just begs the question WHY? I can and have used a Springfield XD 40 Tactical very effectivly out to 130 yards so at what point is a 9 mm in a larger package going to be of benifit? A 7.62x39 on the other hand............. extends me from that 130 out to 400 yards, out here in the AZ desert that is an advantage.

Aaryq
July 25, 2007, 10:37 AM
What do you want in an AK?

Cheaply finished or nicely finished?

Inexpensive or accurate?

Fixed stock or folder?

Most will be very reliable.

Finish doesn't matter, I don't care about cosmetics. Accuracy must be good up to 100-200 yards. FIXED STOCK (I just don't care for folders). I'd like to pay about 400 or so for an AK. What fits this criteria, Kilgor?

Kilgor
July 25, 2007, 04:05 PM
Ok, then you just want a standard Romanian then. They are inexpensive, reliable, and will easily hit a humanoid target to 200 yards.

I didn't ask. Do you need a bayonet lug or compensator (keeps muzzle climb down during rapid fire)?

Romanian WASR-10 highcap, $289.95 without bayonet lug or compensator, but with 2 30 round mags.

http://www.classicarms.us/

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