Accuracy International bad history?


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tommer
July 22, 2007, 09:30 PM
Like many of you, I'd like to some day be able to afford an AI.

I was having this discussion with a friend of mine when he mentioned that he thought AI had KB issues several years ago with their .50 cal rifles in military service, and that there were a few casualties.

Does anyone know anything about this?

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ancient_philosophy
July 22, 2007, 09:34 PM
AI is extremely overpriced brittish "stuff"

i had an AI stock for my Rem 700.......for $600 for a stock, it wasnt all that well made......

their mags for it were POORLY made....and expesive as he:evil: :evil:

it had problems feeding with it.

.....hint.......dont buy Brit made assault weapon accy.

tommer
July 22, 2007, 09:54 PM
It was during the same discussion that my friend pointed out that, from a philosophical point of view, it's not desirable to buy a gun made in the PRUK.

So, no, I'm not really going to get one. But if I can _afford_ an AI then that means I can afford a fine, domestic arm like an EDM. But then that carries with it the problem of buying something made in the PRK...

CDignition
July 22, 2007, 11:01 PM
my AICS mags are top notch..AI-AW`is one of the toughest most durable precision rifles on the planet...


they aren't overrated at all...

AICS is also a nice system...


go buy a savage and be happy with what u can afford

Outlaws
July 23, 2007, 12:12 AM
AI is extremely overpriced brittish "stuff"

i had an AI stock for my Rem 700.......for $600 for a stock, it wasnt all that well made......

their mags for it were POORLY made....and expesive as he

it had problems feeding with it.

.....hint.......dont buy Brit made assault weapon accy.

Sure thing, bud.

Zak Smith
July 23, 2007, 12:29 AM
In 2005, there was a photo that did the "rounds" of a 338LM AI with a banana-peeled barrel. Here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=128281) is the original thread on it. Around the same time, AI went into receivership due to some long-standing cash-flow problems. I never heard any correlation of the kaboom to the financial situation. The company was re-purchased by some of the original owners/engineers and has been strongly delivering rifles and other products since (ie, mid 2005).

I have never seen any results of the kaboom investigation (I asked the main US dealer about it at the time, but no additional details were available at the time). Looking at the photo, the receiver is intact. Every now and then barrel makers put out a bad batch, and bad ammo is also known to happen from time to time. Looking at the photo, I don't think that you can pin the failure on the AI design. Something obstructed the barrel and the flutes were the path of least resistance to release that pressure.

Am I worried about it? Let me put it this way-- I saw that picture after AI #1 and before I bought #2 and #3...

ETA: I did hear that the shooter was OK.

-z

Outlaws
July 23, 2007, 12:47 AM
Myth busters did a episode about the other banana peel barrel photo. The conclusion was the split could happen, but they couldn't get it to peel back.

IMO, no rifle barrel will balloon out like their that AI pic or the other pic, it will split, but the user exaggerates the peel with a little elbow grease prior to the photo opt. ;)

Zak Smith
July 23, 2007, 12:52 AM
Proving something can't happen is problematic when there is good evidence that shows that it has.

Here's another example
http://www.bpcr.net/site_photos/Sako-KA-BOOM/index.htm
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20914&d=1161971348

relevant thread
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226366

Eightball
July 23, 2007, 01:21 AM
Never heard that they've had a "bad history", but, due to the nature of my job (working at an FFL), I could get a much better deal on a TRG42 if I was going to purchase a rifle of that ilk. Which I hope to, someday. :P

Outlaws
July 23, 2007, 02:32 AM
Proving something can't happen is problematic when there is good evidence that shows that it has.

Here's another example
http://www.bpcr.net/site_photos/Sako-KA-BOOM/index.htm
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...4&d=1161971348

relevant thread
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=226366

To an extent. I don't doubt a minor banana or balloon near the chamber, maybe an inch or two like those two links, but the AI and the other infamous photo are physically impossible.

Warbow
July 23, 2007, 08:54 AM
It was during the same discussion that my friend pointed out that, from a philosophical point of view, it's not desirable to buy a gun made in the PRUK.

That's pretty ridiculous. It's not AI's fault that Britain has bad gun laws.

cracked butt
July 23, 2007, 09:50 AM
To an extent. I don't doubt a minor banana or balloon near the chamber, maybe an inch or two like those two links, but the AI and the other infamous photo are physically impossible.

Based on Mythbuster's tests?:rolleyes:

Outlaws
July 23, 2007, 06:15 PM
Based on Mythbuster's tests?

No. But I could see how my previous posts would lead to it looking like that is why I think that.

The amount of energy needed to bend a barrel to those extremes is not present in a cartridge (even completely filled) full of powder...even with the barrel welded. Escaping gas looks for the path of least resistance. The millisecond the barrel splits, the gas will have found a new path of least resistance and the pressure will drop off.

Now, the argument could be made that once the energy of the gas hits the barrel, even if it escapes once split, would propel the strips outward like a bullet...were the energy has been transfered, and the gas is no longer needed. The problem is that what ever was blocking the barrel would have also received an equal amount of energy and that would have been directed outward. The object blocking may not have been dislodged in time, or at all, but it would have provided a sort of muzzle brake effect just prior to splitting that would have prevented the barrel from ballooning out (like the AI pic linked to above) because in order for the metal to bend out, around, and back down, the OAL of the barrel would have to end up shorter than what it started at....but that muzzle break effect would have been a serious hindrance to the energy needed to pull the front of the barrel back inward.

That was too much detail or maybe not enough, but I call BS on the AI and the famous banana barrel. The other two links I won't comment on. They are not so extreme. Plus, if there was an under charged load that got the bullet only a couple inches into the barrel, I could see a couple inch balloon happening at the chamber like the picture shows.

Zak Smith
July 23, 2007, 06:25 PM
So you are claiming all the banana photos are "fakes"? (ie, remains were doctered before the photos were taken)

kieran
July 23, 2007, 06:26 PM
AI is extremely overpriced brittish "stuff"

ahh the rewards of a strong eocnomy. at $2.05 per 1, most british stuffs are going to seem overpriced. ;)

Outlaws
July 23, 2007, 06:42 PM
So you are claiming all the banana photos are "fakes"? (ie, remains were doctered before the photos were taken)

No, I am saying this....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/Rembrandt51/Kaboom11.jpg

...and this...
http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/shoot5/bfr-kaboom.jpg

...and the granddaddy of them all, this.....
http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/userpix/396_Pic1_1.jpg

...have been tinkered with prior to the photo.

You can even see the initial balloon on two of them. Then they were bent back along the split.

Max Velocity
July 23, 2007, 08:03 PM
Sorry tommer, but since your thread has already been hijacked I will contribute.

Outlaws,
Is this KB! a fake also?

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/3369/tckboomff9.jpg

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/9854/tckboom2nw9.jpg

These photographs are of a 375 Winchester T/C barrel that had 375 JDJ data used for reloading.

IMHO: Mythbusters is entertainment not science.

Outlaws
July 23, 2007, 08:23 PM
OBTW: Mythbusters is entertainment not science.

OBTW Read my post a little closer.

Wes Janson
July 24, 2007, 06:02 AM
And what about the M1A that exploded?

http://www.thegunzone.com/m1akb.html

cracked butt
July 24, 2007, 10:06 AM
Outlaws, I hate to burst your bubble, but there are a few well documented Tikkas that split their barrels in a very similar way- split into 2 to 3 pieces legthwise down the entire barrel. In fact Tikka even had a recall on them- seems they had gotten in a bad batch of steel that was used in the barrels.

http://www.thegunzone.com/rifles-kb.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_5_51/ai_n13469660
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/1101978285825

cracked butt
July 24, 2007, 10:10 AM
FWIW, I've only seen fist hand 1 gun that KB'd, though it was a shotgun, the barrel did banana peelbackward from the muzzle.

If you think about it, an obstructed bore or a barrel with bad steel isn't always likely to burst right at the thickest part (chamber) but will burst wher ethe steel is thin and weak enough to let go (near or at the muzzle end). once a crack starts, it propapgates until something stops it, or there is no more metal to crack. You would think that it would vent off the gases once a crack forms, but the entire barrel is under considerable pressure and strain, not just where the crack starts. An overcharged cartridge is more likely to burst at the chamber end because the steel simply cannot hold the pressure even at the chamber.

Outlaws
July 24, 2007, 05:56 PM
Outlaws, I hate to burst your bubble, but there are a few well documented Tikkas that split their barrels in a very similar way- split into 2 to 3 pieces legthwise down the entire barrel. In fact Tikka even had a recall on them- seems they had gotten in a bad batch of steel that was used in the barrels.

:banghead:
Can't anyone read?

I never said the barrel wouldn't split. I never said the barrel wouldn't split the whole length of the barrel. I never said a gun couldn't blow up.

And the M1A pic is not a ballooning or banana peel. That isn't what I am talking about. I posted multiple pictures that clearly show what I am talking about. If it doesn't look like those, then that isn't what I am talking about. Capisce?

cracked butt
July 24, 2007, 07:05 PM
So according to you, barrels will split unless you decide that they are fakes?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/Rembrandt51/Kaboom11.jpg
Give me evidence that the above split is a fake and I'll believ you.

Outlaws
July 24, 2007, 07:15 PM
And according to you...everything on the internet is real?

There is a difference between splitting, a splitting with a bulge, and an all out cartoon. I posted my reasoning. Take it or leave it.

I purpose a challenge... ANYONE who is willing to take me up on this is welcome....
If you think you can make an AI rifle do that, or a Remington do that extreme split, buy the rifle, load the ammo as hot as you want, do whatever you want to the barrel via welding/plugging, and contact me. I will withdraw cash for the value of the rifle and we will go out to the desert and try it. If you can get that much of a cartoonish ballooning or banana peel within three tries (not just a bulge with a split or a shattering like the M1A), I will give you the cash to cover up to three Remington rifles...one AI in .338, those are expensive.

Wes Janson
July 25, 2007, 11:18 PM
I've seen it before in real life. Gunsmith had a bolt-action rifle up on the wall with cartoon barrel: customer had been out hunting, used the muzzle as a walking stick, and then decided to clear the dirt out the quick way.

Outlaws
July 25, 2007, 11:29 PM
I've seen it before in real life. Gunsmith had a bolt-action rifle up on the wall with cartoon barrel: customer had been out hunting, used the muzzle as a walking stick, and then decided to clear the dirt out the quick way.

No, no your haven't. You saw a rifle on a wall... You didn't actually see the rifle kaboom? So you haven't actually seen "it" happen before.

I have a goose that lays golden eggs for sale, I'll even show you a golden egg before you buy it. $2000 and the goose is yours.

Zak Smith
July 25, 2007, 11:54 PM
Outlaws,

No one is going to take your wager because the best they can do is break even, and even if it is true that the above "cartoon" kabooms are legit, it may be that that failure mode occurs less than 33% of the time, in which case it would be impossible to demonstrate, even if the challenger knew exactly how to induce it.

In any case, besides that you personally think they are impossible, I am with cracked butt-- where is the evidence that those were "enhanced" after the kaboom but before the photos were taken?

Here a guy posts about his first-hand experience with the Sako kaboom-

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=518103&f=9411043&m=376109741&p=1

Max Velocity
July 25, 2007, 11:57 PM
Outlaws,
You did not comment on the T/C barrel KB!
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3572254&postcount=17
Do you feel it is faked?

Wes Janson
July 26, 2007, 02:25 AM
Why is it is you're so convinced that numerous people, all across the country, have all taken it upon themselves to bend pieces of barrels back after catastrophic accidents? And then lie about it?

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