do i need some license/permit to sell reloaded ammo at a gunshow?


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cajun47
July 22, 2007, 11:48 PM
in louisiana?

i know its a broad question but maybe someone knows. i'll make some calls during the week to find out if i have time.

i just had a wild thought, maybe i can reload ammo in my spare time and rent a couple tables a gun shows sometimes.

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esq_stu
July 22, 2007, 11:53 PM
Get liability insurance. Even if the ammo's fine, if anything bad happens, everyone will be sued.

22-rimfire
July 23, 2007, 08:06 AM
If it is a true business, you may need a business license for your local city/county if you are doing it legally and correctly. Same apples to state. This is where your local area taxes your earnings.

Bubbles
July 23, 2007, 08:54 AM
"cajun47" should not sell reloaded ammo.

"cajun47, LLC" should sell ammo and have a lot of liability insurance to cover his assets.

kellyj00
July 23, 2007, 09:24 AM
Legally:
If you don't have it, you will need CGL (commercial general liability) insurance. Plain and simple, gypsy's (among other dumbasses) will sue you for nothing if they can, having CGL is necessary. your legal expenses can be covered by a CGL policy. CGL is what pays you when you fall on a wet floor and sue a shop owner.

don't sell under your name, sell under your business name...it's harder to win a law suit against you personally that way...but it ain't fool proof.

You may want to look into an umbrella policy for your personal assets. They aren't that expensive.

Now, a personal note.... some people are stupid. I've heard of lawsuits against ammo companies for all kinds of stupid stuff, not sure how any of them turn out. There is no way to cover your butt in these situations, if someone blows up their gun they will blame you, if you squib or double charge and it causes damage, they will sue. I'm very much so against the idea of suing folks, but frankly if you double-charge a case and sell it at a gunshow and it causes me bodily injury, there isn't a lawyer in the world that wouldn't take that case. I'm not out just the price of a gun (lawyers are $150 or more per hour, you will eat up the cost of the gun fast) but compensatory damages for medical bills and the kicker .... punitive damages.

better be darned sure your ammo is top notch before you sell it

cajun47
July 23, 2007, 09:26 AM
hmmm, i just wanted to make a few extra bucks. maybe my insurance will be "thank you for your purchase, i load this ammo with great care but shoot at your own risk".

how will they prove i loaded any ammo?

i may stick to just 9mm, no .44 mag ammo for sure.

Black Knight
July 23, 2007, 09:31 AM
Years ago I read about a guy who wanted to know the same thing. IIRC he was advised to get an Ammunition Manfacturers License from BATF (now BATFE). This info is extremely dated and may not apply today but I hope this helps. Check with BATFE about it, they should know.

AntiqueCollector
July 23, 2007, 09:35 AM
No offense intended, but, I don't buy others' handloaded/reloaded ammo, and I know many will also refuse to do so, because even if it is good ammo, how do we know you did everything right? Likewise, I never sell my own handloaded ammo...too much risk over liability. Even if someone shoots it in a junky old gun that's falling apart and the gun finally gives while using your ammo, they'll probably try to hold you responsible.

kingpin008
July 23, 2007, 09:38 AM
Cajun - Put it this way - if I were at a gunshow, and I saw a guy selling remanufactured/reloaded ammo for a good price...hell, for a STEAL, and when I went to buy it the only guarantee I got was "I'm very careful, shoot at your own risk" I'll be shooting Wolf or WWB instead, at my own risk.

There's too much at stake with that sort of thing, in my opinion, to not be able to offer the customer some proof that if your product screws them or their gun up you'll be able to make it right.

*Also* Saying to someone "shoot at your own risk" doesn't do a whole lot to inspire confidence in your product. It implies that you, yourself are wary of the quality. I'd not want to buy a car from a car dealer and as I'm driving away hear them say "oh, by the way, drive that sucker at your own risk." Ya know? And even if someone did buy your ammo after hearing your "disclaimer", "use at your own risk" doesn't really amount to a "disclaimer" in the first place. We all use products at our own risk, everyday. It's already assumed that we do, so you're not adding any extra protection for yourself by re-stating it.

Master Blaster
July 23, 2007, 09:41 AM
You May assemble other people's components that they bought themselves, for them for a fee.

You may not manufacture and sell reloaded or new ammo without a license from the BATF, and you have to pay a federal excise tax of around 13% IIRC.

Its sort of like selling whiskey without a license, not legal.

You also need to form a corporation and get a couple million in liability insurance before you become a manufacturer of ammunition.

thebaldguy
July 23, 2007, 10:01 PM
I think it's a bad idea; the possible liability is huge, and many people, including myself, have had problems with someone else's reloads. I don't buy reloaded ammo.

hvengel
July 25, 2007, 05:05 PM
I know a fella that borrowed a model 1885 Browning that was chambered in 25-06. He asked a friend of his to load him up a batch of ammo so that he could use it in a silhouette match. During the match he noticed signs of over pressure in the cases early on but decided to finish that match. About half way through the match the gun blew up. The 1885 Browning is a VERY strong gun but this resulted in the receiver and falling block being blown into little pieces. The shooter was wearing safety glasses and just barely avoided loosing his eye sight. He ended up in the hospital for about a week.

Both were in a gun smithing school at the time and should have known better. IMO both the shooter and the reloader were at fault here. The reloader for making max loads and the shooter for not stopping the second he noticed signs of too much pressure.

I have also at times produced test loads that show signs of too much pressure. But when I notice this I stop using that load and I destroy (IE. remove the bullet and powder) from the remaining ones. There is no way to know if a particular load is OK in a particular gun without testing that combination. Since you will never have that level of control you should stay away from this. There is simply way too much potential liability.

Car Knocker
July 25, 2007, 05:10 PM
hmmm, i just wanted to make a few extra bucks. maybe my insurance will be "thank you for your purchase, i load this ammo with great care but shoot at your own risk".

how will they prove i loaded any ammo?

Ethical and principled, also.

ArmedBear
July 25, 2007, 05:11 PM
A really knowledgable shooter would probably not buy small-lot reloaded ammo from an individual because he wouldn't trust it. That's not a bad reflection on you, cajun47; he just doesn't know you.

So, if I were you I wouldn't trust the people who WOULD buy the ammo. They'd be more likely to do something stupid. DEFINITELY incorporate and get liability insurance. If nobody will sell you the insurance, that tells you something about the risk level.

I wouldn't ever want to discourage entrepeneurship. However, loading ammo is something that can be subject to serious civil liability. And it would be unethical not to tell someone where the ammo comes from. It could be fraudulent, actually, since the headstamp will probably say something like "Winchester".

Beatnik
July 25, 2007, 05:49 PM
hmmm, i just wanted to make a few extra bucks. maybe my insurance awill be "thank you for your purchase, i load this ammo with great care but shoot at your own risk".

how will they prove i loaded any ammo?

You're gambling that you're not going to end up in prison.

All it takes is one person reading this forum to connect the dots, and go to a gun show near LA in about 4 months, find you, take video of the purchase, light off an M-80 in his own hand a day later, and then your life is over.

A good percentage of doing business is protecting yourself. If you don't protect yourself, you're not going to last very long. Operating as a sole proprietorship without insurance may be ok if you're selling pet rocks or designing web pages, but not for anything that goes boom.

kellyj00
July 25, 2007, 06:04 PM
this thread sure got some interesting responses....

I'll tell the OP this, I'm wary about letting my friends shoot my reloads. Then again, I care more about their health than some fella who I meet at a gun show.

Your best bet is to cast and sell lead slugs at the gun shows. Lots of fellas do this, and at $20 to $25 per 500, you're looking at a handsome profit if you can get a bunch of wheel weights together.

Heck, you get that together and I'll buy some cast slugs from you for that price.

wingman
July 25, 2007, 06:16 PM
35 years past I reloaded for friends, family,etc. No more, our sue happy society/greed has hurt kindness or favors, just my 2 cents.

Master Blaster
July 25, 2007, 08:06 PM
From the ATF website:

Is one who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? [Top]

Yes, if he engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purposes of livelihood or profit. No, if he reloads only for his own use.

The license costs $30 per year, and I'm sure agent Schmucatelli will let you know what the penalties are as he is cuffing you at the first gun show you start selling ammo at, when he walks up and asks to see your license.

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