Illustrations: how to spot concealed carry


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Munodi
July 23, 2007, 12:57 AM
These illustrations are part of a larger story about a talented magazine and newspaper illustrator. They were part of a story about a detective trying to get guns off the street.

I have a carry permit but have yet to purchase a suitable pistol. I wonder if these illustrations have any validity.

http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0002w4&topic_id=1&topic=

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Feanaro
July 23, 2007, 01:02 AM
I certainly don't list to one side when I carry, nor do I "short stoke" my arm.

helpless
July 23, 2007, 01:13 AM
I can not say that any of these apply to me, However, I am sure that everyone is different. People carry differently.

rkh
July 23, 2007, 01:13 AM
The guy was a talented illustrator... but the old saying applies here as it does everywhere: "garbage in, garbage out."

I've yet to hear of a cop establishing probable cause to frisk based solely upon a suspect's "uneven gait" or his mismatched clothing.

Sage of Seattle
July 23, 2007, 01:18 AM
Seems to me that all of those "tells" (except for the Victorian style clothing that the bottom center dudes are wearing) would be solved if they used A DECENT HOLSTER.

Cosmoline
July 23, 2007, 01:24 AM
It's obviously from a cop in an anti jurisdiction who arrests people for concealing on an ad hoc basis. Tossed in the pocket at an odd angle, held in a jacket while running away, etc. It's of limited application to properly concealed CCW's in holsters.

Prince Yamato
July 23, 2007, 01:27 AM
You could have all sorts of crap in your pockets that you don't want to jostle around, not just a gun. The article also assumes that modern guns all weigh as much as an old S&W model 10.

If your sport coat is uneven, put a second gun in the opposite pocket to balance it out :D

GunTech
July 23, 2007, 01:27 AM
One of the givaways that I've seen, and takes a while to break, is touching the gun. Folks who are new to concealed carry wilkl often touch their gun as if checking that it's still there, or that their clothes are covering it.

Ranger 40
July 23, 2007, 01:44 AM
He sounds like a cop that would shoot a guy for having a Big Mack and Frys in his pocket. These antigun pucks are the real danger.:cuss:

Geronimo45
July 23, 2007, 06:39 AM
Probably for noticing thugs carrying a gun... y'all see that there's pretty much no holsters whatsoever? Thuggish folk prefer carrying without a holster, so they can ditch the gun easier. They also tend to gravitate towards cheaper guns.

crazed_ss
July 23, 2007, 07:32 AM
I've yet to hear of a cop establishing probable cause to frisk based solely upon a suspect's "uneven gait" or his mismatched clothing

I saw it on the Law and Order TV show once.. the judge threw the charge out though. Briscoe argued that his years of experience made him an expert in picking out people with guns.. Judge didnt agree there was any PC though.

:)

El Tejon
July 23, 2007, 07:57 AM
Apparently New York City is in need of a decent holster shop.:p

Buy a good holster and a good belt.

Gun Wielding Maniac
July 23, 2007, 08:19 AM
Supposedly, this cop, Robert T. Gallagher, made over 1200 arrests for people carrying "illegal guns" in New York City. He would look for "assymetrical gait, mis-matched clothing, and suspicious behaviour." Then, he'd have probable cause for a search(!).

Another reason to dislike New York. In before the haters.

tinygnat219
July 23, 2007, 08:37 AM
Nothing like misinformation.

geekWithA.45
July 23, 2007, 09:04 AM
Class? What is the lesson of this article?


GET A GOOD HOLSTER, DON"T BE TWITCHY, AND YOU WON'T BE MADE.

ozwyn
July 23, 2007, 09:12 AM
given the proliferation of other objects carried in the same areas (cell phones, pdas, pagers) I would presume the guideline obsolete.

too many people carry too much other stuff in the same areas.

Robert Hairless
July 23, 2007, 09:32 AM
The illustrator's information was supplied by Robert T. Gallagher who was named New York State's Officer of the Year in 1984 (http://criminaljustice.state.ny.us/ops/poya/recipientspast.htm).

1984
Detective Robert T. Gallagher of the New York City Police Department received the award for his work as a member of the department's anti-robbery team. They worked on the confiscation of illegal firearms in Manhattan and the Bronx.

There's a brief New-York Times story (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980CE6DA163BF933A15756C0A962948260) about then Gov. Cuomo making the award in 1984. It says that in 1983 alone Gallagher arrested "125 armed offenders." Considering the reliability of the Times, however, it's equally possible that Gallagher really was an offender with 125 arms.

geekWithA.45
July 23, 2007, 09:45 AM
Wrong forum. Moving to general guns.

1911 guy
July 23, 2007, 10:03 AM
As long as the carrier isn't using a holster and is nervous about having a firearm on their person in the first place. The average CCW'er won't exhibit many of these, someone who has carried for a while and/or is comfortable wearing a gun won't exhibit any of them.

kd7nqb
July 23, 2007, 11:19 AM
I suppose next week's article will be how to spot someone who is Open carrying?


Back on topic, as a soon to be new CCW'er I will be aware of these if they are so called, "Common errors"

SaMx
July 23, 2007, 11:28 AM
If you see a guy wearing a t-shirt that advertises a "tactical pistol class" and he also has a fanny pack, you can bet there's a gun in the fanny pack.
But those illustrations seem to be focused on catching guys doing "mexican carry" rather than older overweight guys.:neener:

Sistema1927
July 23, 2007, 11:35 AM
A good holster and a clear conscience will keep you from making these errors.

I pocket carry a Kahr PM9 daily with a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster and my gait doesn't change, the pistol never slips out of position, and I don't need to wear any cover garment. I also know that I am one of the "good guys", so I don't need to be furtive in my actions.

RavenVT100
July 23, 2007, 12:11 PM
I think you ought to keep in mind that that graphic probably applies to instances where you have people carrying guns without a holster, i.e in situations where they're not legal to have a gun/using the gun illegally and want to get rid of it fast.

I imagine the police are more concerned about those people, which is why you would have that laundry list of stuff to look for.

vtoddball
July 23, 2007, 12:27 PM
Looks like it showed up in the NYT in 1992. At that point in time, people didn't have cellphones and other electronic devices hanging all over their bodies. I'm betting that will throw of these techniques. Everyone has bulges everywhere from all the stuff they carry now.

Carl N. Brown
July 23, 2007, 12:30 PM
I've yet to hear of a cop establishing probable cause
to frisk based solely upon a suspect's "uneven gait" or his mismatched clothing
I saw it on the Law and Order TV show once.. the judge threw the charge out
though. Briscoe argued that his years of experience made him an expert in
picking out people with guns.. Judge didnt agree there was any PC though.

I noticed in re-reading Don B. Kates' Restricting Handguns (1979) that
most commonly gun carrying charges got thrown out because there was no
"Probable Cause" for the searches in the first place. Antigunners Norval
Morris and Gordon Hawkins proposed doing away with the probable cause
requirement, which cost Morris a plum job in federal law enforcement
when the congressional hearings brought forth his book proposing trashing
the IV Amendment in the name of gun control.

kungfuhippie
July 23, 2007, 12:31 PM
I'm left handed and I favor my left hip when I walk, more so after a long day when I'm tired. It's purely a physical condition. I don't carry. I hope no idiots think that I am carrying and cause problems. It's just arthritis.

If I do carry maybe I should cross draw so that I'll balance out:neener:

fletcher
July 23, 2007, 12:48 PM
There's a bit of truth, I suppose, in what she describes. It's by no means 100% accurate (like holding on to it when running - could be holding on to something else, like a PDA).

Although, I certainly don't rotate when passing someone. I do adjust periodically because my IWB holster is not canted, and that bothers me at times (need to look for a new one). I also do not rest my hand on my gun.

After a bit of review, I would call this more "how to spot a nervous person carrying a gun, possibly illegaly" than "how to spot everyone carrying".

MD_Willington
July 23, 2007, 01:26 PM
..."With the right tactical holster anyone can successfully complete a reverse 3 1/2 tuck from a 3M springboard..." :neener:

Cannonball888
July 23, 2007, 01:43 PM
I walk with a limp if I have a gun in a ankle holster. I walk normally with one on each leg.

Sometimes more is better :D

cmidkiff
July 23, 2007, 02:03 PM
Get a P3AT, R9, PM9, 642, or some other micro sized ultralight, a decent belt, and a good pocket holster.

Even getting a firm grip on the pistol doesn't raise any red flags. The weight won't throw you off any more than a set of keys would, and any 'bulge' you might see would be about the same size as a phone or PDA.

geekWithA.45
July 23, 2007, 02:06 PM
I noticed in re-reading Don B. Kates' Restricting Handguns (1979) that
most commonly gun carrying charges got thrown out because there was no
"Probable Cause" for the searches in the first place. Antigunners Norval
Morris and Gordon Hawkins proposed doing away with the probable cause
requirement, which cost Morris a plum job in federal law enforcement
when the congressional hearings brought forth his book proposing trashing
the IV Amendment in the name of gun control.

Well, it's a good thing they figured out their way around that pesky thing!

It nauseates me that approved injustice comes down to evolving the right legal incantation.


Now, just like the Commerce Clause, where congress gets to regulate anything they want as long as they mutter the "Incantation of Traveling in or Affecting Interestate Commerce", now all they need to make it stick is the mumbled Incantation of "I saw him walking with an uneven gait, and he only turned to face me at right angles, so I frisked him" spell.

Freightman
July 23, 2007, 02:34 PM
I walk crooked anyhow lean right, broke my back in "93 and had a right knee replaced haven't walked straight in years. Got enough hardware in me to set of detectors.

sacp81170a
July 23, 2007, 02:34 PM
From the illustrations in the article, most of the "tells" involve carrying without a holster, as many in this thread have pointed out. In the Violent Encounters report of 2006, the FBI points out that most criminals who carry do so without a holster so that they can ditch the weapon when necessary and not have to account for the presence of an empty holster when searched by LEO's. Therefore, the illustrations may be valid for areas where CCW is illegal or for criminals, but for CCW holders with proper holsters and familiarity with carrying weapons, they're just so much bunk. Another case where "Big Apple" centered thinking doesn't apply to the rest of the country. :rolleyes:

benEzra
July 23, 2007, 02:49 PM
A lot of those would apply only to guns carried jammed in the waistband, and according to the FBI, criminals rarely use holsters.

BBQJOE
July 23, 2007, 03:09 PM
Crap, I'm going to have to stop wearing my parka in summer.

geekWithA.45
July 23, 2007, 03:17 PM
the FBI points out that most criminals who carry do so without a holster so that they can ditch the weapon when necessary and not have to account for the presence of an empty holster when searched

Resistance fighters in WWII had that problem as well. They evolved a way to loop a carefully lengthed string around their belts and sidearms to form a quick release/disposable IWB. :neener:

Werewolf
July 23, 2007, 03:59 PM
He sounds like a cop that would shoot a guy for having a Big Mack and Frys in his pocket. Or an empty coffee can in his car... :what:

Geronimo45
July 23, 2007, 08:57 PM
He sounds like a cop that would shoot a guy for having a Big Mack and Frys in his pocket.
If the cop doesn't do it, the dry-cleaner will.

shc1
July 23, 2007, 09:17 PM
Keep one hand on your pocket and a Tommy Gun in the other hand.

And smile a lot.;)

Standing Wolf
July 23, 2007, 09:40 PM
One more reason to carry openly.

W.E.G.
July 23, 2007, 09:46 PM
Pretty much any fat white guy driving pickup truck and wearing a fanny pack.

Or anybody wearing a 5.11 vest.

thexrayboy
July 23, 2007, 10:59 PM
I could not help but notice in the article how the detective mentioned had made some 1200 arrests for weapons with a stated conviction rate of 99.99%. I don't care who you are or what you do. No body achieves those kinds of numbers without cheating. Humans are just not that perfect. Those numbers would indicate that out of all his arrests approximately 1.2 individuals were not convicted. No way do you get those kinds of numbers without breaking the rules.

I would also like to know how many innocent citizens this man stopped and frisked based upon mere suspicion that were not carrying a gun. How many citizens rights did he violate. How many people were abused and misused to support his personal quest to crap on the 2nd Amendment.

44Brent
July 24, 2007, 01:07 AM
http://www.opencarry.org

ArfinGreebly
July 24, 2007, 01:36 AM
Over the last year or two I've switched from ordinary slacks to cargo pants.

My chiropractor kept getting on my case about driving while sitting on my wallet. Twisted my lower back.

Made me walk funny.

I now either wear cargo pants and carry wallet on the side or wear a fanny pack for the wallet and sundries.

I don't carry. Never have.

Maybe once I start to carry I'll be able to walk straight.

Kevin108
July 24, 2007, 07:45 AM
This stuff might be true for somebody that doesn't use a real holster but with a CTAC or a VM2 where I and nearly everybody I know that wears one can almost forget we even have it on, I don't think these illustrations hold true.

Nathanael_Greene
July 24, 2007, 10:28 AM
Did this same detective also write an article about how to defend yourself against a man armed with a banana?

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