[AugustusMcCrae]

Which of these BP pistols would you pick for someone who has zero experience with BP?

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jsp?id=cat20817&navAction=jump&navCount=1&cmCat=MainCatcat602007&parentType=category&parentId=cat602007

Must be under $500 including shipping to NC. Must be a version with starter kit. Must be in a fairly easy to find caliber for ammunition & decent man-stopper cartridge.

Thanks for the advice.:)

[ArmedBear]

Them things don't shoot cartridges, man-stopper or otherwise.:)

That said, if you have a $500 budget, I'd consider the stainless Remington. If you want authentic, get the standard sights. If you want modern-style sights, get those. I find the original sights to be fun to shoot.

If you want to save money, get the blue Remmie in .44. Just note that BP is corrosive and should be cleaned soon after shootin, often with water. It can feel kinda wierd to wash a blue gun with water. Doesn't hurt it any, it just feels wierd when you do it.:)

[AugustusMcCrae]

Them things don't shoot cartridges, man-stopper or otherwise.

:banghead: Your right. I don't know why I said cartridge.:o

As for my budget, the lower the better but I do want one that's enjoyable & easy to clean. As far as the sights go, I just want to plink at distance's of around 50'.

[Jamie C.]

For $500, I wouldn't recommend any of those, I'd go with an Uberti. ( Those are Pietta. Nothing wrong with 'em really, it's just that for the money, I think the Uberti's are a slightly better value. )

Some folks claim that Remingtons are better "first BP guns" than Colt, but honestly, it really comes down to what you like, and what will hold your attention long enough to learn the ins and outs of BP revolvers.

Starter kits... ugh. I hate 'em. They're generally cheap and cheesy, and only end up being replaced in short order any way. Better to make a list of the things you'll need and buy good quality items right from the start.

The basics you'll need are:
A nipple wrench
Screw drivers that'll fit your gun
Balls or bullets the right size for your gun, or a mold for the same, if you want to cast your own.
Caps - #10 or #11, depending on what your gun likes.
Powder - either real black, or the substitute of your choice. ( These last all have advantages and disadvantages, compared to both each other and real black powder. )
A powder flask and/or a powder measure. You can get a flask that takes different spouts, and this will pretty much eliminate the need for a separate measure.
Lube of some kind. Store-bought stuff will work, or you can make your own.
Wads, pre-lubed or otherwise, are optional, but may be something you're interested in.

That's all I can think of, at the moment. And I'm sure I'm forgetting something.


J.C.

[AugustusMcCrae]

If the Cabella's BP pistols are no good, what about these Uberti models?

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/Walker.tpl : I admit I like the looks of the Walker version, but what do I know?

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1860Army.tpl

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1858NewArmy.tpl

[ArmedBear]

I have a Uberti 1858 in Millenium Finish. It was not expensive, and the finish is not so pretty that I'm bummed if it get scuffed a bit. The Ubertis have a dovetailed front sight, so you can tap it over to adjust POI. That's an advantage, I think.

I'll recommend the Uberti without reservation. However, I was assuming that Augustus McCrae had a gift certificate to Cabela's or something. (Did I mention that Augustus McCrae is the name of our new dog?)

I'd go with the original sights. They're absolutely fine at 50 feet. I have them.

One reason I recommend a Remington is that the sights are generally a lot better. They're usually set to shoot POA at normal pistol distances, and the rear sight is a notch on the frame like a SAA. Colts shoot very high and are very hard to adjust if they're off, and they usually are. The rear sight is on the hammer. A Remington is a very solid, simple design that's clearly the forerunner of the modern revolver. The frame is one simple part, and doesn't unscrew into a bunch of parts like the Colt.

The .36 revolvers will be a tad cheaper to shoot, since the bullets are a bit cheaper, they take less lead if you mold them yourself, and the powder charges are smaller. But they're not man-stoppers. They work on rabbits, though. If you want to hunt something bigger or have the gun as a self-defense gun in any way, get the .44.

I would not recommend a Walker as a first gun, though they're neat. They're very, very heavy and the loading lever is problematic. They have the same sighting issues as other Colts. Replicas are also expensive.

I think a Remington NMA .44 is a great first BP gun, though I'm prejudiced, since it was my first BP revolver. When the old one got tired (early '80s low-end Italian gun with soft parts), I replaced it with another, this time a Uberti 1858. So I must have liked it.

Another cool choice is a Rogers and Spencer from EuroArms. It's top-quality and a great shooter.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/
http://www.buffaloarms.com/
http://www.texasjacks.com/ sometimes has good sales

Note that various manufacturers do vary in quality. It's often worth paying an extra $50. Uberti has been consistently good, though word is Pietta is good now, too. I looked for Uberti, myself, since I wanted to be sure my new gun would be a lot better than what it replaced.

[DixieTexian]

Don't get a Walke yet. If you do you won't have something to look foreward to...

[Yankee John]

Nothing wrong with Cabela's BP pistols- I would take a new-made Pietta any day of the week. I even think some of them are better than their Uberti counterparts!

JMO,
John

[AugustusMcCrae]

(Did I mention that Augustus McCrae is the name of our new dog?)

I believe you did. Does your dog like to lay around & drink whiskey?:D

So I don't get the Walker yet. Ok.

Another cool choice is a Rogers and Spencer from EuroArms. It's top-quality and a great shooter.

Isn't also the gun Mal uses in "Firefly"? That's even cooler than the Walker!:D I'll look into it & the 1858 Remington you mentioned.

[ArmedBear]

I do prefer the Remington's safety notches, BTW, but the R&S cylinder is easier to cap and clean. The space the Remington uses for the safety notches is wide open on the R&S. Tough call.

He does drink a bit of beer already, but he's only 12 weeks old.:D

[johnnytang24]

Hi, I am also interested in starting with BP. Can I order a Remington 1858 through the mail without using an FFL?

Thanks.

[ArmedBear]

Unless you live in Newjersistan or something, yes.

[AugustusMcCrae]

I guess I'll go with this 1858.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/037084410005.html

Should I get the stainless version or the blued version?

[Tommygunn]

Hi, I am also interested in starting with BP. Can I order a Remington 1858 through the mail without using an FFL?

Thanks.

That depends on what state you live in. I used to live in Connecticut and at that time I could order a BP gun and UPS would deliver it to my doorstep. About the same time I scadaddled out of Ct the laws changed and I would no longer be able to mail order a BP pistol. Now I live in Alabama -- and can still mail order the BP pistols.

[Jamie C.]

I've had good luck ordering from these folks:
Taylor's & Co. (http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/)

Their prices are pretty good, and if you live on the eastern side of the U.S., shipping doesn't run much.

P.S. Augustus - The gun at the link you posted says "Out of stock". You could be a while getting one from them. Give Taylor's a call and they'll tell you if what you want is in stock or not. ( I called about 5 different places before I found my Uberti Remington, back in May. )


J.C.

[ArmedBear]

Why not order the same gun for less money?

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,6691.htm

[mike101]

How about a Ruger Old Army, stainless steel. Don't sweat the starter kit. All that other stuff is easy to find.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Ruger+old+army&osCsid=d72e1a620883d06524d586b49671a20e&x=17&y=10

[AugustusMcCrae]

ArmedBear, at the bottom of the link you just posted, it said that BP will expose you to lead which can "cause birth defects & cancer". :uhoh:

Is shooting BP a higher risk of contracting something like cancer?:uhoh:

Mike101, at the link you posted, it said the Ruger "Old Army" is chambered in .45 blackpowder. Is that easy to find?

[johnnytang24]

How can I figure out if PA will allow shipping of BP pistols? I guess I could just buy it at Cabela's or some store.

Thanks.

[Jamie C.]

ArmedBear, at the bottom of the link you just posted, it said that BP will expose you to lead which can "cause birth defects & cancer".

Is shooting BP a higher risk of contracting something like cancer?

That's a standard warning/disclaimer that's no doubt required by some law or the other, these days.

Shooting any gun increases your exposer to lead. BP guns may entail a slightly greater risk due to handling the the balls or bullets, but over all, as long as you don't lick your fingers while you shoot, are shooting in a well-ventilated area, and wash your hands afterward, risks should be minimal.

Holding your bullets in your mouth while you load the gun would probably be a bad idea too... :uhoh::rolleyes::D


J.C.

[mykeal]

Or perhaps even less money (it's a Uberti, Millennium finish:
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/BlkPowder/CA104-58RemArmyMillennium.htm#

Ditto on do not buy a Walker as your first bp revolver.

If $500 is the budget, and you want a great gun (regardless of historical perspective) consider the Ruger Old Army. There is no better made bp pistol at any price. It is a modern gun, however. That is, it is not a reproduction of any historical gun but rather a modern implementation of a historical technology using modern materials and ideas.

I too, like the Rogers and Spencer as a first gun, and the Colt 1860 Army. Can't hardly go wrong with any of those.

[AugustusMcCrae]

If I get the 1858 .44 version, what type of projectiles do I need?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/projecti_ehi.htm

That "Old Army" looks & sounds good. Which projectiles would I need for that?

[mykeal]

.451 or .454 round balls, no patches with any 44 cal revolver. The .451 will load easier but may not be big enough. Look for a small ring of lead to be shaved off as the ball is rammed home - if no ring, go to the .454 ball.

30 gr fffg black powder with a lubed felt wad under the ball, or a bit of Bore Butter on top of the ball if you don't want to use the wad.

[Jamie C.]

Uberti recommends .454 dia. for their .44 guns, so of your choices there, I'd say these (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/30524-18556-483.html) should do just fine.

I've heard that the Pietta .44s take a slightly smaller -.451 dia. - ball/bullet.


J.C.

[ArmedBear]

No!

Ruger Old Army takes an odd-sized bullet, a .457 I think. It does not take the standard .451 or .454 that everything else does.

[AugustusMcCrae]

So for the 1858 it's the .454 round ball but for the Old Army model, you need the .457 ball.

Is that right? If yes, what else do I need to get started? I like the idea of the Old Army pistol because of the modern metals & methods used for better results but I didn't see it's ammunition on CTD.

[ArmedBear]

Yes, that's right.

If you get a powder flask, some Pyrodex, some olive oil, cleaning supplies (probably just BP solvent or something if you already have centerfire cleaning kit), WonderWads and a can of percussion caps, you can go shooting.

[mike101]

"Mike101, at the link you posted, it said the Ruger "Old Army" is chambered in .45 blackpowder. Is that easy to find?"

Sure is, Gus. It takes a .457 ball, made by Hornady, Speer, and Buffalo Bullet Co.. The Rugers are extrermely popular, and tough as nails. Trouble free as your going to find, also. There are .45 Colt cartridge conversion cylinders available from www.kirstkonverter.com., and R&D, available at www.midwayusa.com.. Actually, the conversion cylinders are available for Pietta and Ubertis, also. Buffalo Bullet also makes conical bullets for all of them.

[Jamie C.]

Do keep in mind that all modern replicas are made using "modern metals & methods". It's just that the Ruger is a modern design as well, where the Colt, Remington and other historical copies try to duplicate the original design. Nothing other than a non-firing "wall hanger' is going to be made from cast iron, etc. ( The brass-framed guns are the exception here... they're sort of "wall hangers" that can be fired, to my mind. )

Also, one of the essential pieces of equipment you'll need before you shoot is a nipple wrench, since you'll want to completely disassemble the gun to clean it afterwards.


J.C.

[mike101]

Well, .457 may be "odd sized", but everybody who carries lead balls has them. People have used .454 in Rugers, also, including myself, but .457 is a better fit. The Rugers are very popular, as I said, so you won't have any problem finding whatever you need. I would recommend Reminton #10 caps, as well, for best fit.

Whoever asked about the necessity of going through an FFL, not necessary in almost every state. Whoever asked about PA, no problem at all.

RE: Cabellas, their prices are not so great. Bud's Gun Shop is the cheapest for the Ruger that I know of.

[AugustusMcCrae]

I've made a decision. I'm going to go ahead & get the Old Army version. Thanks for all your suggestions & advice. :)

I'll try to take some pictures when I get it. Should I get the stainless model or the blued version? What's the cheapest place to get one from? Is it worth it to get a used version or am I better off getting a new one?

[ArmedBear]

If you have other BP .44's and/or mold them yourself (much cheaper than commercial bullets if you can find the lead), .457 is odd-sized. If you have a few guns that shoot .454, and the molds for .454, a gun that wants .457 becomes less attractive. I never knew why Ruger did that. Are they sharing barrels with the Blackhawk or something?

However, if the ROA is your only gun, it doesn't matter, as mike said.

[mike101]

Good choice, Gus. YES, GET THE STAINLESS!!! Much easier to deal with. Hell, you can even refinish the thing with synthetic steel wool, when it gets beat up!

Bud's gun shop has the best price for a new one. Don't even waste your time trying to find a cheaper one on the web. I've already wasted said time.

If you want to get into molding your own balls/bullets, Lee makes molds for both, and it is a lot cheaper. They even have a hollow-point mold (conical) for the Old Army. They also make molds for the Remmies and Colts.

Now, if you do decide to eventually start molding your own, the lead might be a concern. Just make sure you do it in a decently ventilated area. If you do it on the range, just turn the exhaust fan on. That's what I do. I have not yet sustained any dain bramage. :D

[AugustusMcCrae]

I actually have an outdoor range in my backyard.:)

I'm glad to hear you reccomend the stainless as that's what I've been leaning toward. It just looks beautiful to me.

[mike101]

You're probably going to pay about $300-325, give or take, for a used one. Check www.gunsamerica.com. About $450 from Bud's, for a new one. I would say, it depends on your budget. A used one is a pretty safe bet, as these are built tough.

When Bill Ruger decided he wanted to build a cap and ball revolver, he told his engineers that it had to be as strong as a Super Blackhawk (.44 Magnum), and at least as accurate. So, it just depends on what you want to spend.

Enjoy!

[ArmedBear]

mike-

But do know the history of why Ruger decided on a chamber size that's just a few thousandths different from standard?

[mike101]

PS- Rather than Pyrodex, I would go with Triple 7, also made by Hogden. It develops a bit more pressure than Pyrodex (more power), and it contains no sulpher, so it is easier to clean, and it doesn't smell as bad. It's less corrosive, too.

Armed Bear, I always wondered why the Rugers used a larger diameter barrel too. I'm pretty sure that they do share a barrel with the .45 Blackhawk, and now, Vaquero, but they could have used the .44 Super Blackhawk barrel as well. It's a mystery.

[ArmedBear]

They probably couldn't just use the SBH barrel and a .451/.451 round ball.

.44 Magnum is more like a .429" bore, whereas the bore of a .44 BP revolver is really .44" AFAIK.

It would make perfect sense if they share the barrel with the .45LC Blackhawk, though. I'll go with that theory.:) When the ROA came out, BP revolvers weren't exactly a mature market, either, so they probably didn't figure it would matter one way or another.

[mike101]

I always wondered why he didn't just go ahead, and make it a copy of the '58 Remmie on the outside, and use the 3 Screw Blackhawk lockworks on the inside. It looks so much like the Remmie anyway.

I always liked the Remmie one-piece cylinder/grip frame. You can drive nails with it.;)

I don't know if you saw this the other day. US Firearms in Hartford is coming out with re-issues of the '58 and '75 Remingtons, under an agreement with Remington. It'll be available in blue, and bright nickel. Oooooh. Don't know how much $$$, yet.

[ArmedBear]

I always wondered why he didn't just go ahead, and make it a copy of the '58 Remmie on the outside, and use the 3 Screw Blackhawk lockworks on the inside. It looks so much like the Remmie anyway.

http://ruger.com/Firearms/images/Product-Variations/216.jpg

I have thought exactly that, myself, or at least retain a more Remington-like appearance, like the Bearcat has.

http://ruger.com/Firearms/images/Products/152T.jpg

To me, a Remmie-shaped frame with a Colt-style grip frame has always looked "wrong" somehow. The Rogers & Spencer lever/pin design with Remington web looks good as-is, but I really think I'd like the ROA better with an octagon barrel.

The three original cap-and-ball revolvers most similar to the ROA had them, and they seem to be popular in the BH/Vaquero aftermarket as well.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/RH1320.jpg
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/RH0404.jpg
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/RH0140.jpg

[ArmedBear]

no sulpher, so it is easier to clean, and it doesn't smell as bad

But that just doesn't seem right.:D

[johnnytang24]

Ok, the store I went to after work had a Traditions Rem 1858 for $220. Is the Traditions a decent gun? Should I find an Uberti elsewhere? I don't need competition level accuracy, but I don't want a gun that will fall apart either.

Thanks.

[Gaucho Gringo]

If you get the Remington, get one of these cylinder loading stands like this one http://www.possibleshop.com/cap-ball-supplies.htm . It is the second one. It takes all of about 10 sec to pull the cylinder and this makes loading so much easier in my opinion. When I go shooting I carry my gear in stacking milk crates, one with a piece of plywood cut larger than the milk crates. Stack 3 high, wood on top and you have an instant loading table. With this and the cylinder loader makes for quick and easy loading. Not fancy but cheap and portable.
I too use Triple 7 in my Pietta Remington. I have found 23 grains works good in mine, I can use more but all I get is more noise and recoil. I also use a.454 round ball, shaves a nice thin ring of lead when loading.

[ArmedBear]

I'd get the Uberti for a few more bucks.

WRT the stand, I have one I just bought. However, I've used the loading lever on the gun until now, and it works. You don't NEED the stand, but it's a cool accessory. Get an extra cylinder, and you have a cowboy speedloader.:D

[DixieTexian]

johnnytang, the traditions Remington is probaly made by Pietta. It should say so on the side of the barrel. The new ones, I think, are good, but I would have someone with experience look at a used one before buying.

[mike101]

How about a .50 Old Army, with an octagonal barrel?

http://www.gunblast.com/Cumpston_ClementsFugett.htm

PS-Gus

Another nice thing about the Old Army- If you want to get fancier grips for it, they're easy to find. It takes the same grips as the New Model Blackhawk, which isn't so new, and I think the Vaquero. Everybody makes grips for the Blackhawk, and they'll fit right out of the box. No hand-fitting required.

[Timthinker]

Augustus McCrae, I agree with the other members who urge you to purchase the ROA. I discovered my old Ruger would outshoot all other blackpowder revolvers I have fired. You will not regret purchasing a Ruger.

That said, I noticed you are considering a BP weapon for self-defense. I must state that a modern semi-auto or revolver would be a better choice. Granted, a BP firearm can serve as a "man-stopper", but there are more reliable choices available. This is not intended as a criticism of the ROA, which I consider the finest muzzleloading revolver available, but I believe that a BP gun handicaps you in a life-and-death situation compared to other firearms.


Timthinker

[AugustusMcCrae]

I just wanted a BP revolver that would be able to use for SD if needed.

I have an AK as my primary HD gun. In my state of NC, you must be 21 to own a pistol that uses fixed ammunition but BP guns are alright. No legal loopholes will work here.

[GunTech]

Ruger Old Army does in fact take 0.457 ball or conicals. I'm not sure that classifies as a weird size, just non-traditional.

If you don;t care about a histoprical design, the Ruger is a very good pistol, particularly the stainless version. The sights are first rate - much better than any 'authentic' model.

The Remington 1858 is a very good design, and is much easier to 'field strip' than the Colt Guns. You can also carry extra loaded cylinders. My personal favorite is the Colt 1860 Army, but mostly for esthetic reasons.

For those who doubt the stopping power of BP revolvers, keep in mind that Wild Bill Hickock used 36 caliber Colt Navys to dispatch a number fo people, and the 44 Walker was the most powerful handgun until the introdiction of the 357 magnum.

A 44 caliber BP revolver with pure lead balls or conical bullets should be more than adequate for self defense, although it would be far from my first choice. BP revolvers do have the advantage of not being firearms under federal law.

[ArmedBear]

I'm not sure that classifies as a weird size, just non-traditional.

It's just a unique size; again that matters only if you have multiple pistols of different designs and want them to share ammo. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, at all.

How about a .50 Old Army, with an octagonal barrel?

It looks like a neat custom, and I really think it's attractive, too, with that barrel on it!

[Jamie C.]

Only problem I can see with using a BP gun for self-defense is trying to make a follow-up shot through that huge cloud of smoke.

Especially if you're indoors, you're not gonna be able to see a thing after the first shot. And firing blind when you only have six to start with doesn't sound like much of an idea either, for a number of reasons.


J.C.

[Timthinker]

Augustus McCrae, I am glad you own a modern firearm as your primary home defense weapon. The reliability of modern guns far exceeds that of their BP counterparts. Still, the Ruger would be my choice for a BP defensive weapon if for some strange reason I could not own a modern firearm.

I am sure that your Ruger will provide you with many pleasant hours of shooting in the future. I know mine did. Good luck with your introduction to the world of blackpowder.


Timthinker

[ArmedBear]

I occasionally shoot a BP .44 at an indoor range. I can still see through the smoke. After 6 quick shots, I can still see, though not very well.

It's a FLASH SUPPRESSOR I'd really need for self-defense indoors...:D

[Old Dragoon]

I know from experience that a 44 C & B revolver fired in total darkness will light up the room for a splt second....just enough time to see the OH! SH**! look on the perp's face as he backed out the broken window. Cops found him in the bushes by the garage from the SMELL of what he did to himself. Smoke? What Smoke I just remember the FLASH! I was not the shooter. And NO I wasn't the perp. I was the sleepy innocent half awake sleeper on the couch. LOL

[mike101]

That Clement's Custom Old Army is pretty expensive. About $1395, IIRC, or $995 on your gun.

[Coyote Rider]

Although I'm relatively new to bp shooting, one thing I've already learned is that the size of your hand is an important factor in determining what pistol is best for you. I'd urge you to actually hold and if possible fire whatever make and model pistol you're thinking of getting before you plunk down your federal reserve notes.