Made in China?


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Mr. Magnum
July 23, 2007, 02:00 PM
what if your favorite pistol/revolver (S&W, Colt, Glock, HK, Steyr, Springfield, Kimber, Para-Ordnance, Ruger, Walther, etc etc. )manufacturer in the USA / Germany / Austria, etc suddenly took a detour and had their firearms be built in China?

(no offense to the people of China.. this is purely an honest curious question about Manufacturing companies who have chosen to give-up pride, dignity and legacy of their company for profit)

Happy & Safe Shooting to all!

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The_Future
July 23, 2007, 02:03 PM
I don't believe that we can import firearms from China.

so the question is moot

jkingrph
July 23, 2007, 02:03 PM
It would not be my favorite pistol/ revolver. No problem, no purchase!!

strat81
July 23, 2007, 02:04 PM
Generally, I buy based on value. If a chinese gun met my needs at a specific price, I'd buy it. This goes for pretty much everything, not just guns. I've owned too much stuff based on "american pride" that turned out to be crap.

Jim K
July 23, 2007, 02:09 PM
Have you shopped in Walmart lately? Is anything made in the U.S. any more? Even the smallest and most insignificant stuff is made in China, and most of their high tech stuff is darned good, fully competitive with Japan.

I sure don't like China's political system, or their aggressive military, but they sure know how to make stuff cheap (forced labor) and sell it to us.

The topper (pun intended) was when the army found out that its first black berets were made in China. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

Jim

MD_Willington
July 23, 2007, 02:20 PM
It would be made from recycled US steel....

MarshallDodge
July 23, 2007, 02:29 PM
no offense to the people of China.. this is purely an honest curious question about Manufacturing companies who have chosen to give-up pride, dignity and legacy of their company for profit
Last time I checked, profit drives a company, not pride and legacy.

I try to buy 'Made in USA' products but it is not always feasible. My favorite shotgun is my Browning Citori, a Japanese made product that is very well made. If the firearm is made better and is more reasonably priced then I would purchase it from China.

TX1911fan
July 23, 2007, 02:35 PM
If a company in New York could manufacture their product much more cheaply in Nebraska, would you claim that they are showing lack of pride in New York to move their manufacturing to Nebraska? Now that we have a global economy, it makes no sense to seek higher prices simply for pride. All that does is introduce inefficiency and waste into the economy. We have enough of that with the Federal government.

Cannonball888
July 23, 2007, 02:39 PM
Aren't Norinco's considered good quality guns?

Daemon688
July 23, 2007, 02:41 PM
As long as they are still quality firearms, why not? I'll take all the Norinco firearms the Canadians are getting right now any day!

Titan6
July 23, 2007, 02:42 PM
Like most things made in China it likely looks really good until you try to use it or rely on it then it breaks or wears out quickly.

The Same was likely true of Japan 50 years ago. I have yet to see a quality product from China that is completely reliable unlike my American made Honda or DPMS Panther which are. The third quality goods that most American's buy at Walmart from China are mostly junk. I think people in this country would be amazed by a trip to Japan or Germany where substandard products are not widely accepted.

mp510
July 23, 2007, 02:44 PM
I don't believe that we can import firearms from China.
IIRC, sporting shotguns made in China are still importable- just no rifles or pistols.

MikeH
July 23, 2007, 02:52 PM
I sure don't like China's political system, or their aggressive military, but they sure know how to make stuff cheap (forced labor) and sell it to us.

The notion that all their cheap exports are made by forced labor is rather baseless. There is an acute labor shortage in coastal regions due to demand. Factories have been raising pay to recruit and keep workers just like they'd do in any capitalist economy. Fierce competition, lack of industrial regulations, and "creative" cost reduction methods have far more to do in keeping their prices low than anything else.

Average Joe
July 23, 2007, 02:56 PM
I would pass on anything made in China.

strat81
July 23, 2007, 03:20 PM
Like most things made in China it likely looks really good until you try to use it or rely on it then it breaks or wears out quickly.

I'd say a Norinco MAK-90 runs counter to that statement.


And even though they're relatively new to the road, the Chevy Equinox is powered by a chinese-built 3.4L V6. An American Revolution indeed!

iiibdsiil
July 23, 2007, 04:41 PM
I don't know why people seem to think that they can't build stuff of the same quality in China. Does it matter where the machine is located, really?

PILMAN
July 23, 2007, 04:52 PM
Depends on the quality and build and if it retains it's value, if it's good quality then I don't mind. Those Norinco 1911's I heard are nice and i'm considering purchasing one while they are still cheap.

Harry Paget Flashman
July 23, 2007, 05:04 PM
I've bought five Chinese T53 Mosin Nagant's($35/ea), two Chinese "Chiang Kai-Shek" '98 Mauser's($75/ea), A Norinco 1911(~$300 in trade) and a Norinco Model MC-5D SKS($395). If they cloned a Model 10 S&W to same quality of what I have and sold it for $100 I'd buy it too. Guns is guns. If they function well and are cheap they're my kind of guns. I like quality and quantity.

Havegunjoe
July 23, 2007, 05:15 PM
I would never knowingly buy a gun made in COMMUNIST China. My company does business there and it drives me nuts. It also drives me nuts how we have conveniently forgotten that they are still COMMUNIST CHINA.

Sav .250
July 23, 2007, 05:21 PM
Don`t forget the ...........toothpaste.

arcticap
July 23, 2007, 05:33 PM
I buy enough stuff that's made in China so that I can save a few bucks and be able to afford the better quality guns which are usually American/Western made.
It's not an ideological decision, but at some point enough is enough. :rolleyes:

CajunBass
July 23, 2007, 05:34 PM
Wouldn't bother me one bit.

RNB65
July 23, 2007, 05:35 PM
If the quality is good and the manual is written in English, I could care less where it was made.

Justin
July 23, 2007, 06:01 PM
I would never knowingly buy a gun made in COMMUNIST China. My company does business there and it drives me nuts. It also drives me nuts how we have conveniently forgotten that they are still COMMUNIST CHINA.

Oddly enough, the Chinese seem to have forgotten that they're still COMMUNIST, too. At least judging by the way business is booming there.

Zundfolge
July 23, 2007, 06:05 PM
I love how people complain about us doing business with Teh Evil Chicoms! ... but have no problem doing business with places like Massachusetts and New Jersey.

Also, it was trade that brought down the Soviet Empire ... why not use the same thing to bring down Mao's China?

CWL
July 23, 2007, 06:15 PM
but they sure know how to make stuff cheap (forced labor) and sell it to us.

Forced labor? Believe it or not, there's a labor shortage of qualified workers in China right now. Nobody is forced to work in any factory that manufactures products for exports (note: this is different than China-internal factories which really suck)- HR managers have quite a problem with retention of workers as they skip after payday to better paying companies. $100/month is nothing here in the US, but that's 4X what someone would earn in a village farm. How do I know? Because I can spend 2weeks/month in Asia, China particularly because that's where the action is.

As for anyone here that who claim to never buying China goods, you may as well throw away your computer and get off-of the internet. ALL Computers are made in China nowadays. Dell, HP/CompaQ, Apple, Sony, Toshiba, Sun Micro...

MikeH
July 23, 2007, 06:28 PM
$100/month is nothing here in the US, but that's 4X what someone would earn in a village farm.

You've gotta tell me where in China you can still hire someone at US$100 per month full time. My wife's domestic helper at Shenzhen gets paid more than that.

Last time I checked, the starting pay for a factory worker in the coastal areas is about US$120. It could go as high as $200-300 with experience.

Prince Yamato
July 23, 2007, 06:42 PM
I would never knowingly buy a gun made in COMMUNIST China. My company does business there and it drives me nuts. It also drives me nuts how we have conveniently forgotten that they are still COMMUNIST CHINA.

First off, how many of you have actually been to China? The last time I went was 2001. Trust me, it's communist in name only. The only images of Mao are on cigarette lighters that play Beethoven's "Fur Elise" when you open them. The only thing negative I find about China is their use of squat toilets in public restrooms, but low and behold, they're getting rid of those in time for the 2008 Olympics.

Secondly, I personally have no qualms paying for Chinese goods, especially firearms, which are equal in quality to a comparable American firearm that costs 4-10x as much. If we could still import Norinco non-sporting arms, we could get AR-15s for $300 instead of $900-1200. My "Buy American" pride ends when the American is basically ripping me off and charging me more than the product is worth. And as far as propping up the parent company of North China Industries, the Chinese Army, whatever, they're selling the US guns. They bolster our civilian defensive readiness. It's rather ironic that the Chinese gov't is more willing to supply the American populace with defensive weapons than the American gov't is.

CWL
July 23, 2007, 07:05 PM
Last time I checked, the starting pay for a factory worker in the coastal areas is about US$120. It could go as high as $200-300 with experience.

MikeH,

Where and when did you check? Is it your job to source labor? Like I said, I spend months (cumulative) in China every year. If you really believe this, then PM me and I can relocate your factory so that costs of skilled factory operators are $100/month.

jkingrph
July 23, 2007, 07:09 PM
I would never knowingly buy a gun made in COMMUNIST China. My company does business there and it drives me nuts. It also drives me nuts how we have conveniently forgotten that they are still COMMUNIST CHINA.
__________________
Agreed!!!!

Daemon688
July 23, 2007, 07:09 PM
I'll chime in. The last time I was in China was 2003. All the cities we visited were no different than any other city in America like Chicago, NYC, L.A., etc. Back then the Germans had a virtual monopoly on the car market. There were literally thousands of VWs scooting around. Many people still seem to have this conception of millions of Chinese cyclists. Not so anymore. I remember seeing lines of people trying to get food at McDonalds in Beijing. That's something I would NEVER see here. We'll moan and groan about Chinese made products but I'm sure people in China are doing the same thing about all those multi-national companies trying to get into the Chinese market.

It's capitalism at it's best. If you're only intent on buying American, then you won't have much of anything then. Even then, I bet you would be hard pressed to find 100% of the parts in your car made in the US. It's the world economy, things come from everywhere. My PDA, cell phone, TV, MP3 player all made in China. They work fine and have withstood all the abuse I've dished out and they're actually high quality.

China's aggressive military? When was the last country China invaded? What was the last country the United States invaded? Today, communism isn't a threat, not even in China. Capitalism is changing China, just wait till the old guard finally dies off and the new generation takes its place.

Still China has it's own problems. Pollution, governmental corruption, the gap between rich and poor, etc., etc. By the way, the Chinese are buying American as well. The only place where auto sales look good for american companies is in China. :rolleyes:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070705/BUSINESS01/70705014/1014

MikeH
July 23, 2007, 07:12 PM
The only images of Mao are on cigarette lighters that play Beethoven's "Fur Elise" when you open them.

You forgot all those Great Helmsman fridge magnets and other trinkets available at pretty much all tourist traps.

CWL
July 23, 2007, 07:14 PM
I would never knowingly buy a gun made in COMMUNIST China. My company does business there and it drives me nuts. It also drives me nuts how we have conveniently forgotten that they are still COMMUNIST CHINA.

I paraphrase what G. Gordon Liddy said about communists: the only ones left are in America...

If you want to call China, evil, tyranical, capitalistic, competitive, greedy, human-rights abusers, I'd agree.

quatin
July 23, 2007, 07:38 PM
If I were to actually make my purchase decisions based on my favor of political systems. I would not have bought anything made in USA for the past 7 years.

Average Joe
July 23, 2007, 07:39 PM
The quality control is very poor, making an inferior product, toothpaste? or food laced with bacteria? How soon we forget.

Prince Yamato
July 23, 2007, 08:31 PM
I remember seeing lines of people trying to get food at McDonalds in Beijing

The most authentic looking (looked most like the menu picture) McDonald's cheeseburger I ever had was at the McDonald's in Tianamen Square, by the Forbidden City. Chinese McDonald's also one up us... they serve breakfast food 24 hours a day.

Tell you what folks. You get me an Egg McMuffin fresh at 1pm and a $200 Colt Ar-15 clone brand new in the cosmoline, I'll concede that I'm wrong :D .

MikeH
July 24, 2007, 01:12 AM
One major difference I should mention between China and the US is that, in the former, these two are actually considered upscale: :neener:

http://www.wal-martchina.com/images/adbar/001bar_sc.gif

http://www.wal-martchina.com/images/adbar/001bar_sams.gif

Just Jim
July 24, 2007, 01:17 AM
I refuse to buy from China when possible.

jim

trbon8r
July 24, 2007, 01:35 AM
I'd buy an older used gun instead.

.45Guy
July 24, 2007, 03:35 AM
I would never knowingly buy a gun made in COMMUNIST China. My company does business there and it drives me nuts. It also drives me nuts how we have conveniently forgotten that they are still COMMUNIST CHINA.

But bless their little commie hearts for arming us to the teeth. I still remember the gunshows where $99 would bring home a Chi-Com SKS and a case of Norinco steel core ammo. There were literally piles of crates full of SKS's at some tables. It really was a thing of beauty.

Ala Dan
July 24, 2007, 03:43 AM
I did not know that all of the U.S. Army's Black Berets were made in China~!:eek:

But, I think that under President Klinton's regime that firearms made in China
can no longer be imported~? That is one reason that Norinco firearms dried
up, for the most part~! :scrutiny:;)

Davo
July 24, 2007, 03:46 AM
I would buy if it was the better purchase to me. The market needs competition, and if I "buy American" when its not the better product...who am I really serving? The "buy American" mentality really helped keep the US auto market strong, didnt it?
I bought a Honda again yesterday because for the most part the American market isnt making what I want.
Btw...in a decade or so out streets may be flooded with Chinese cars.

brentn
July 24, 2007, 03:53 AM
Made in china is usually a bad thing. This is because quality control standards for their factories are usually very poor, becuase the labor is cheap. Manufacturers choose china becuase of cost, thats the only reason, they know that they will have a higher % of defective units, but its still acceptable in their opinion.
These days, quality control on most products made in china is done by the purchaser :(

I'll tell you one thing, I could care less where its made ONLY if I knew what the quality control was like.
If a gun manufacturer chose china, it would be in their BEST interest to indicate to its consumers the type of quality control done at the factory. They would be specific and in that they would lose a minimal amount of sales. They would defenitly lose sales though, cause sometimes it doesn't matter about quality control, a person may buy it becuase if its made here they are supporting our economy and not another countries. Technically if a product is a good price, and its made in china, you are supporting slave labor lol.
Its funny how many people that do support fair working rights, human rights, are ironically not supporting them becuase they want the cheapest price on a product. But I'm not going to get into that...


Japan has thee best quality control in the world, when something is made their perfection is one of their mottos and it shows. Laptops that were made in japan (nearly all of them back in the mid-late 90's) are still working today and have no failed becuase of this.

However, when things are made here in the country, usually money is not an issue for assembly of a product, becuase minimum wage here is NOT 25 cents an hour like it is in china. Point being, if its made here chances are, and I did mean to say chances, it is made well.

RobTzu
July 24, 2007, 03:55 AM
The reason we have cheap Chinese goods is that the Chinese currency (yuan) is artificially de-valued. This makes exports cheaper and imports more expensive, from China's perspective. China is making cheap (to us) goods at the cost of its own standard of living by making imports more expensive. We see it over here as a flooding of inexpensive goods, they see it as high priced imports. If they let their currency float, Chinese goods would raise in price some 40% (at my last check). Imports (to the chinaman) would see a corresponding drop in price. That would be good for most Chinese... except with the high price of their exports, they would see layoffs in their export oriented factories. The reason that the Chinese government does this is debatable, but its tangible effect is the movement of 1st world factories to its soil, and huge reserves of foreign cash. Which the Chinese put into Treasury Bills, and believe me, the lendor is boss to the debtor and China has a firm grip on one of America's testicles in this regard.

Short answer: I would not buy a Chinese made firearm.

brentn
July 24, 2007, 03:57 AM
ala dan,

norinco is not sold in the states not becuase they are chinese, but becuase of what they were involved in. Goto wikipedia and search norinco, there is good reason as to why they are banned.

.45Guy
July 24, 2007, 04:10 AM
Wasn't it something to do with a shipment of AK's with "da switch?"

brentn
July 24, 2007, 04:13 AM
I think had to do with selling full auto's to the wrong people in the states, I can't remember but it was defenitly shady and illegal.

Oleg Volk
July 24, 2007, 04:33 AM
Last foreign war China fought was against India, and before that against Vietnam. In other words, the US is wasting more of its human and physical capital on military misadventures than "commie" Chinese. China may be totalitarian now, but they are less socialist in many ways than Europe.

PH/CIB
July 24, 2007, 05:16 AM
In my lifetime we have gone from the World's Greatest Lending Nation to the World's Greatest Debtor,,,and China is holding most of that debt. Maybe we should Export our Politicians to China! After the Dog Food and Cat Food scare if I can I try not to buy anything from China or at Wal-Mart.

MikeH
July 24, 2007, 10:30 AM
Last foreign war China fought was against India, and before that against Vietnam.

The Sino-Indian Border Conflict was in 1962, while the Sino–Vietnamese War was in 1979. In between, China also sent troops into North Vietnam to help fight the US.

AntiqueCollector
July 24, 2007, 10:54 AM
Global economy my foot. My country comes first, along with true allies (and China ain't one of them). I don't and won't buy into globalism, the global economy, etc. It's destroying us, and by the time more wake up to the fact, it'll be too late to do anything about it.

As for the higher cost of U.S. made stuff, keep in mind the following reasons: inflation (the dollar is a lot less valuable than it used to be, so, while a price may seem "high", in reality, if you take into account the value of the dollar, it's not really), the Chinese currency is artificially low, and, the quality of Chinese stuff is generally low. I collect antiques (see my username) and just comparing older American tools, furniture, etc., to the new Chinese stuff, will show you a lot about what I'm saying here. The differences in quality are shocking, but, people think they have "more" these days than people used to, because the individual items are junk and cheaply made. I'd rather have fewer high quality items, be they firearms or tools or furniture, than a couple houses worth of trash. And like one other poster mentioned, enjoy your Chinese toothpaste...

Vonderek
July 24, 2007, 11:06 AM
I would not buy anything if possible from China. I will walk in battered athletic shoes until I can find the rare pair imported from anywhere besides China. Sure, all the cheap crap China floods us with has overall raised our standard of living (Where else on the planet but the U.S. can you find poverty-level folks with HD TVs in their living rooms?), but at what eventual cost? China is selling us the rope to hang ourselves.

Prince Yamato
July 24, 2007, 11:17 AM
the quality of Chinese stuff is generally low.

That's an old stereotype. Just like the quality of Korean products was low in the 1980s and now they're considered equal to their Japanese counterparts. Also, quality of Chinese firearms was never low. Also, what does "buying American" mean anyhow? Do you buy Ford? Those are made in Ontario, Canada. Chevrolet? Made in Mexico. Hyundai? Made in Alabama.

RNB65
July 24, 2007, 11:41 AM
It also drives me nuts how we have conveniently forgotten that they are still COMMUNIST CHINA.

I'm just curious how you think this differs from any other period in Chinese history? For most of the past 5000 years, China has had a repressive, centralized/dictatorship government with a society largely closed to outsiders. Regardless of which label you hang on it (dynastic, communist, socialist, marxist), Mao Zedong and company didn't bring anything to the table that hadn't already existed for several millennia.

Princi
July 24, 2007, 11:50 AM
As I write this, I'm in Bangalore, India on my 3rd trip this year. Last year I spent a considerable amount of time in Shanghai, and Xi'an China. There were also side trips to Beijing,...

One thing China will never export is humor. Years of living under Communist rule didn't give them much to smile about, and in spite of the booming economy of today, you still don't see much smiling.

What you will see is a lot of really hard working people. Ask one of your Chinese staff to do something and it will get done, and on time. Not so good here in India. If an Indian things the task is beneath them, they will try to get someone else to do it, or it just won't get done period.

The biggest problem I had in China was with English. Although I might have a word or two that I don't understand spoken in Indian English, Chinese English - well that is something else.

Another thing about the Chinese is: try to give them a tip. They will fight you like cats and dogs. I had the company driver take me to the airport a couple of times, which was overtime for him. I tried to give him money, and it was always a fight. The same thing was true with our cook.

Ever have a taxi-cab driver take you for a ride in New York, or any of our major cities? That won't happen in Shanghai.

There is also a lot of pride in workmanship by the Chinese worker. Our apartment there was flawless. You should see our apartment here in Bangalore. Light fixtures that are crooked. Wall plates that don't fit right... I could go on and on. This isn't a cheap apartment either: it is costing the company $6400/month, well that was when there were 44 rupees to a dollar, now there are only 40 so the cost of the apartment has gone up.

What I do like is the religious freedom in this part of India. You don't see that in China. They have a few established churches, but no real freedom of worship.

Communism is socialism +P+. If you take a look at the Democratic parties platform, you will see it going further and further to the left towards socialism, which eventually becomes communism.

If you look at how the "Communist Govenment" in China works with its industries you will see a big difference between doing business in China and trying to do business in the U.S. with all the government controls, cost of litigation, fear of product liability suits...

Yes China has its share of problems too - big problems. There were only a few days out of the year that I saw women walking around carrying umbrellas to shade them from the sun. There isn't much sunlight because of all the polution.

Would you buy something made in New York City? Why did everything in NYC always cost more? It was because of the necessary pay-backs to the mobs. Hopefully, most of that is gone, but I have my doubts.

Yes, I'd buy products made in China because the guy making it was just as human as the guy walking down the street in Dallas carrying the boom-box; if, and this is the big one, the quality/value was there.

My formula for making the United States a great country again: close the law schools.

Neo-Luddite
July 24, 2007, 11:58 AM
I avoid buying any products made in China. I will often select the high quality products imported from Taiwan. I hope if the moment arrives we won't fail our ally's trust and let them be swallowed whole by the monster.

I regard with special scorn any U.S. operation that moves production there when they were still turning a solid buck employing U.S. citizens. The little I've heard about the conditions of factory workers there is heart wrenching also. This is why I won't be buying any more Daisy airguns or Radio Flyer wagons for my kids.


The debt we have accrued will come due payable to China someday--just how will we be paying?

They are still communists regardless of the mask they wear.

MikeH
July 24, 2007, 12:07 PM
I avoid buying any products made in China. I will often select the high quality products imported from Taiwan. I hope if the moment arrives we won't fail our ally's trust and let them be swallowed whole by the monster.

I'm from Taiwan, and I appreciate your support for my homeland. However, Taiwan's manufacturing industry is moving westward into China as we speak. A significant amount of consumer goods exported in China are actually made by factories with Taiwanese and other foreign capital. Even in Taiwan, it is getting harder and harder to resist Chinese goods.

jkingrph
July 24, 2007, 12:12 PM
Global economy my foot. My country comes first, along with true allies (and China ain't one of them). I don't and won't buy into globalism, the global economy, etc. It's destroying us, and by the time more wake up to the fact, it'll be too late to do anything about it. As for the higher cost of U.S. made stuff, keep in mind the following reasons: inflation (the dollar is a lot less valuable than it used to be, so, while a price may seem "high", in reality, if you take into account the value of the dollar, it's not really), the Chinese currency is artificially low, and, the quality of Chinese stuff is generally low. I collect antiques (see my username) and just comparing older American tools, furniture, etc., to the new Chinese stuff, will show you a lot about what I'm saying here. The differences in quality are shocking, but, people think they have "more" these days than people used to, because the individual items are junk and cheaply made. I'd rather have fewer high quality items, be they firearms or tools or furniture, than a couple houses worth of trash. And like one other poster mentioned, enjoy your Chinese toothpaste...
__________________
I'm not a collectlor, but a user of fine tools( not enough, but enough to know what I'm doing) and will take an old Stanley or Greenlee or a new Sorby from England over the Chinese imports any day. Lee Neilson(sp) up in Maine is also making some fine chisels and hand planes, but be advised on the good antiques with a lot of life left in them, or new tools of quality, you shall pay probably 10 times the price of the chinese. You gets what you pay for though.

salthouse
July 24, 2007, 12:35 PM
There is a lot of hipocrisy in saying I won't buy this or that from x or y (I'm guilty of it too). We all buy our gas from companies that have made fortunes using imports from Iran and Venezuela. Chinese toothpaste can be just as much of a problem as chili made in Georgia. Like it or not, we are all part of global economy that is the result of the world being a much smaller place than it was 20, 30, 50 years ago. To me its a value question. If I can get the quality I need for a price that I want, I'm probably going to buy it. Buying a table made in China instead of NC because its cheap and my 3 yr old is only going to beat the crap out of it anyway, seems like a good deal to me. Just like paying 2X for a tool made in the US because its better and I don't want to have to buy another one also seems like a good deal.

MikeH
July 24, 2007, 01:58 PM
Recently, there has been talks about how the US stock market will take a long-term dive as baby boomers retire and cash in their investments. There is just no way that post-boomer generations like myself can buy enough to keep the prices up.

One possibility being looked into right now is to help the Chinese set up their version of 401k and open up US securities to them. This way, some of the money will come back, and boomers don't have to worry about a 30% drop or more in the value of their retirement funds. Of course, such a win-win solution will be impossible if isolationism is in effect.

Cosmoline
July 24, 2007, 02:02 PM
If a company in New York could manufacture their product much more cheaply in Nebraska, would you claim that they are showing lack of pride in New York to move their manufacturing to Nebraska?

If the New York company was a subsidiary of a brutal communist government that ensured lower prices through a system of forced labor, yes I would suggest such a move showed lack of pride. I would suggest such a move showed a complete lack of an moral fiber at all.

Chinese set up their version of 401k and open up US securities to them.

Why don't we just sell them some states while we're at it. The Chinese already own a huge chunk of the nation's debt. That means we're their you-know-what. Future generations will look back and wonder how we could have been so incredibly naive and stupid.

I'm just curious how you think this differs from any other period in Chinese history? For most of the past 5000 years, China has had a repressive, centralized/dictatorship government with a society largely closed to outsiders.

Oh, it doesn't. And if you'll read further in the history books, you'll see how Chinese governments in the modern era tend to end badly. We've bought into a great bubble. We're banking trillions of dollars on the notion that China will calmly evolve into a western style economy with rule of law and sound fundamentals. If instead the whole thing collapses in chaos and war as it always has in the past, our economy and that of the western world will face collapse along with it. The price of goods will shoot up as new factories have to be found. Investments will vanish along with all the money people have poured into them. Combine that with ripple effects setting off chaos in places such as Nigeria, Venezuela or SA (it only takes one of those) and you have gasoline at ten dollars a gallon.

just comparing older American tools, furniture, etc., to the new Chinese stuff, will show you a lot about what I'm saying here.

Yup. I have a Smith-Corona typewriter made in the USA back in the 30's sitting on my desk. It's so well made it qualifies as a work of art, with hundreds of perfectly engineered and fitted moving parts. The whole thing is encased in a glossy maroon steel surface. Each key is a carefully made ceramic. It's not just an old technology, it represents a commitment to quality we have completely lost. Like the remnants of the Roman empire entering the dark ages, we cannot make things we used to make. We literally don't know how.

Kimber1911_06238
July 24, 2007, 02:20 PM
I would buy from whatever american gunmaker was left. Don't get me wrong I like HK's and sig's and other quality european firearms, but i try to buy from american companies whenever possible.

Oleg Volk
July 24, 2007, 02:26 PM
China is investing abroad when return on investment improves on domestic options. We should be happy that US attracts some of that investment. Likewise, we invest in China when ROI is better there.

If US can go from net creditor to debtor, China can also. Also, "owning" parts of US isn't always good for the owner. Witness the Japanese ownership of US real state which left them holding overvalued properties.

Prince Yamato
July 24, 2007, 02:33 PM
Yup. I have a Smith-Corona typewriter made in the USA back in the 30's sitting on my desk. It's so well made it qualifies as a work of art, with hundreds of perfectly engineered and fitted moving parts. The whole thing is encased in a glossy maroon steel surface. Each key is a carefully made ceramic. It's not just an old technology, it represents a commitment to quality we have completely lost

I honestly think everything went to hell in the 1960s. In the 1950s, you couldn't beat american automobiles. Best in the world, built like tanks. American guns, were well made also. Unfortunately, that is not the case today. I also think prices are over-inflated. No way in hell any AR is worth more than $500... half of the gun is plastic. I think the best example of a rip off is US made AK parts vs. foreign made ones. Tapco Pistol grip, $9.99. Chinese grip $0.99. how can you justify a 1000% increase in price? Answer: you can't. I love my country, but I'll be damned if I pay its citizens, when they're ripping me off. It's pretty sad when the "oppressive communist regime" can give me a better value than my own countrymen. Oh, and on top of that, the US gov't passes a law (the imported parts req.) that basically FORCES me to pay the higher prices for compliance! What happened to consumer choice? I shouldn't have to pay higher prices for the same good!

I would buy from whatever american gunmaker was left. Don't get me wrong I like HK's and sig's and other quality european firearms, but i try to buy from american companies whenever possible.

Like Springfield 1911s? Whose frames are made in Brazil. Or Springfield XDs? Which are Croatian guns? S&W? Half of their guns are made under license by Walther (P99 and PPK). Winchester? Which I think is now owned in part by a Chinese company anyway.

Sometimes, better products just come from foreign countries.

Daemon688
July 24, 2007, 02:54 PM
Heh, I would have to argue that the only reasons why American automobiles were top of the heap in the 50's and 60's was because the Germans and Japanese were still trying to rebuild after the war. The whole idea that foreign products will lead to the destruction of the country isn't unique to us. I recommend everyone here to read a book called "Seducing the French" written by Richard Kuisel. Seems the French held many of the same sentiments as people on this board do when American products and businesses "invaded" France.

In the mean time, I'll be eating my Chilean fruit in the winter, listening to my Chinese made mp3 player with Korean battery, shooting my German framed Sig with American slide, and driving my Polish powered, German transmissioned, assembled in Brazil Volkswagen.

Another little tidbit: I read recently in a NYT article that approx 50% of all the apple juice in the US comes from China. :D

Oleg Volk
July 24, 2007, 02:56 PM
That Smith-Corona typewriter also cost more, in proportion to salaries, than a laptop computer costs today.

Cosmoline
July 24, 2007, 03:49 PM
better products just come from foreign countries.

Actually, better products come from our grandparents. My carry piece is a Detective Special made a generation ago in the 50's. Snub nose and age, it can still thread needles at the range.

That Smith-Corona typewriter also cost more, in proportion to salaries, than a laptop computer costs today.


How many laptops will still be going strong SEVENTY years after being built? How many will still be going strong just five years from now? We live in an age of shoddy.

Neo-Luddite
July 24, 2007, 04:01 PM
Cosmoline--May G-d bless and keep your manual typewriter. I have three--including my Dad's massive Underwood. I looked up what they sell for today--just a few bucks----the market is relatively flooded with over-built indestructable typewriters.

Mike H--I just got a sweet little pocket knife as a gift--a Carson Design M1612Z--made in Taiwan. The quality and tollerances on the thing are unbelievable. Regarding what you said about Taiwan moving manufacturing to China, it's the same cause and effect as here in the U.S. I'm sure.

My handle to the contrary, I'm not in favor of shouting to the sky that America should try to re-live the glory days of heavy industry---I just don't want to see the things we clearly do well run away in search ever-cheaper labor and non-regulated pollution. If it costs an extra buck or two so that I wouldn't be ashamed of myself for my tacit endorsement of the conditions the person who made it works under and lives in I'm OK with that.

cracked butt
July 24, 2007, 04:09 PM
I looked at coach guns at dunhams last week.
They had a Stoeger and a chinese model.

The chinese model was poorly fitted, had a crack in its plastic stock which looks like it was from being forced onto a receiver that didn't fit it well, and one of the muzzles was a sort of oblong 'D' shape.:barf:

It was $100 cheaper than the Stoeger, but not a $100 that I'd be willing to save.

Guns made by the chinese goobermint I would buy though.

Gewehr98
July 25, 2007, 12:59 AM
would poop themselves if they ever looked inside the computer cases they're using to post such nonsense here at THR with. :D

Neo-Luddite
July 25, 2007, 01:22 AM
Or look and see where the garlic powder in the kitchen came from (go ahead--look--surprise!).

Hardtarget
July 25, 2007, 01:27 AM
Don't kid yourself. China has NO respect for patent rights. They probably are already making them...just not exporting...yet.

Mark.

illinoisdeerhunter
July 25, 2007, 02:05 AM
History does repeat itself---read on

No country has ever been as great or pure as ours or richer in good citizens and deeds; none has been free for so long from the vices of avarice and luxury; nowhere have thrift and plain living been for so long held in such high esteem. Poverty with us went hand in hand with contentment. Lately wealth has made us greedy and self-indulgence has brought us through every form of sensual excess too be in love with death both individual and collective.
Titus Livius b. 59 b.c. (referring to the Roman empire)
IDH b. 1963 a.d. (referring to the U.S.A.)

It'll happen to Chiina too. It might take a generation or two but, it'll happen.

illinoisdeerhunter
July 25, 2007, 02:10 AM
history does repeat it self...

read my signature...

It'll happen to China too. It might take a generation or two but, it'll happen

Prince Yamato
July 25, 2007, 03:20 AM
better products just come from foreign countries.

You left out my qualifier...

Sometimes, better products just come from foreign countries.

Not always, but sometimes. And it's nice that you have a revolver from your grandfather, but I don't. I have to buy newer guns, which tend to cost more if they're American made. Again, I love my country, it just angers me that its citizens try to rip me off.

Savage92
October 20, 2007, 02:06 AM
Easy answer for me, No Sale. There would not be enough profit if a company in USA tried to make their guns for the same price as a chinese gun as they can pay their employees whatever they want, so I don't think that I'm being overcharged by American companies. If I were cheap, I could get a Marlin 22 for under $200, S&W or Ruger handgun for about $500, Mossberg shotgun for under $300 and a Savage rifle for about $400, so I think that's pretty good. And there isn't any choice for electronics and stuff like that, it's either China, Japan or some other Asian country. I live in Canada (Wish I didn't) and would never buy a Norinco, I think they're junk. I'd pay triple the price for an American or even German or Italian made gun before i got a Chinese gun.
Just My Opinion.

Kimber1911_06238
October 20, 2007, 12:27 PM
I go out of my way to buy american...except for my brownings

Just Jim
October 20, 2007, 01:39 PM
I own a Russian (1954) SKS and a Chinese SKS. To compare the two is like comparing a geo metro to a Cadilac however both will get you where you want to go.

jj

jkingrph
October 20, 2007, 01:43 PM
NO!!!!!

plexreticle
October 20, 2007, 01:46 PM
My Chicom milled SKS shoots alot better than my Russian one.

strangelittleman
October 20, 2007, 02:36 PM
I'd not buy a second rate, tainted, communist firearm. I'm just not into putting my money into the pockets of communists. The Legislative branch of the Federal government does enough of that already!

davepool
October 21, 2007, 02:59 AM
I remember when "made in Japan" had the same stigma that "made in China" has now, hell, my Springfield XD45 was made in Croatia and it's a nice weapon, face it with the regulations. restrictions and Unions(the UAW's jobs bank has almost bankrupted the auto industry) that American manufacturors have to deal with it's a wonder anything is made here any more
(we can thank the liberal bureaucrats for that) BUT, if i ever see " Hecho en Mexico" on a Ruger or Smith & Wesson i will sell everyone i own!

Gustav
October 21, 2007, 03:27 AM
Years ago before I knew better and did not realize the full impact I did buy Chinese Norinco products.:(:uhoh::barf::barf:

Allot of those cheap SKS rifles and cases of ammo only directly or indirectly put badly needed hard currency in the coffers of the Chinese PLA.
Money which helped finance the modernization and upgrading of a military which poses a growing menace for many different reasons.

It reminds me of the time prior to WW II when we sold Japan much of our scrap iron only to have to send our men years later to go up against the empire and weapons of war we helped to build indirectly.

My dad is one of those WW II Vets who did end up fighting in the Pacific and then spent a year destroying weapons and ammunition in post war Japan.

Never again will I ever buy any Chinese Firearms or ammunition because now when I see them the word Laogai comes to my mind and I for one will never forgot what the PLA did to the students and unarmed protesters at Tiananmen Square!:fire::cuss:

For those who want a good read pick up any book written by Harry Wu.;)

Vote with your dollars and think long term.:cuss:

intrepid953
October 21, 2007, 05:39 AM
Just have to make sure the only lead involved was coming out of the barrel. Seriously I think I would pass for other brands.

Dan

Just Jim
October 21, 2007, 10:50 AM
Isn't Mossberg made in Mexico???

jj

plexreticle
October 21, 2007, 11:54 AM
People complaining about buying a Chinese gun. Flip over your keyboard and see where it was made.

GM opened a engine factory in China the same year it closed a factory in Texas. Motorola, same thing except with computer chips.

Next time you shop for shoes check the label. Even most off the shelf cowboy boots are made in China now.

My $79 Sks is better off here than it was in China and thousands of American jobs weren't shipped overseas to make it.

Mike J
October 21, 2007, 02:03 PM
Thousands of American manufacturing jobs are going to China for everything. There are many products that I don't think you can even find made in America any more. I don't necessarily believe American companies are ripping me off because they charge higher prices than the Chinese. They also have to comply with enviromental laws, pay their workers much higher wages as well as comply to osha standards-equal oppurtunity employment laws etc. I also believe the lack of manufacturing facilities in this country is a problem. If all our goods come from overseas-what happens in a world war situation? Our lack of industry will be a serious problem. At the start of World War Two the United States was at a disadvantage militarily. They overcame this by converting already existing factories to make planes, tanks, etc. If we are ever in that situation again we wont have the factories to convert if things keep following their current trend. I read about a year ago that several of the defense departments biggest contracts are with Chinese companies. Don't know that anything can be done about this but think it is dangerous to all of us and our country. Politicians selling us down the river.

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