Can Question


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Mot45acp
July 24, 2007, 03:11 AM
I would like to quiet down my AR. My CLEO wont sign off on anything. NFA items are legal in my state. My questions are as follows:

How easy is it to create a LLC or trust?

Is it something better to have a lawyer do?

Do I have to renew? Or is it a once its done, its done?

I would like to incorporate for the can, but, for future purchases as well.

Thanks.

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jefnvk
July 24, 2007, 03:18 AM
Can't comment on TX, or for the purposes of obtaining a NFA, but for MI its about $500 to do so. Got a buddy that is in the drop ship business on ebay, his tax consultant reccomended he do so, so I can't imagine its hard.

Artful
July 24, 2007, 02:41 PM
Really depends upon your state laws. Here in AZ it's not hard - check with your lawyer but lots of people were using software (Will maker?) to do it.
- as to your Cheif LEO - he's not the only one that can sign the form - Judge - AG or others of the court can sign off.

But I would first approach him to find out what the deal is with his refusal - in my mind if I was chief LEO, I would want to know who has them instead of making everyone go an end run around me so that I am unaware what is happening in my community -
(he can't stop you if your eligable to own one by state and local laws , so why would he try to bury his head in the sand about them.)

Bartholomew Roberts
July 24, 2007, 11:00 PM
How easy is it to create a LLC or trust?

It is very easy to create an LLC or trust. Creating one that will serve your needs can be a little more complicated.

Is it something better to have a lawyer do?

I would say yes. It may not be necessary in every instance; but it is cheap insurance against future problems.

Do I have to renew? Or is it a once its done, its done?

A trust is only done once and has no fee to register it in Texas; but it must be done correctly and there are limitations based on your state law. This is definitely worth talking to a lawyer about because if you get it wrong, you don't have a valid trust; but you do have an NFA weapon you can't possess.

A corporation costs $300 to file in Texas (do it yourself) and you must pay taxes (franchise tax, Federal income tax) every year as well as file an annual report. To be really safe, you should probably keep minutes and update your paperwork as well. Some advantages to a corporation are that it is really difficult to form an invalid corporation in Texas (though you can find yourself an invalid corporation real quick if you forget to pay taxes or file a report) and any corporate officer may possess and use the NFA item. On the flip side, if you do a jiffy "do it yourself" registration and then add corporate officers, you are purchasing some legal troubles if you ever get crossways with your officers. This is one of those deals where having a lawyer draft the incorporation documents in advance is worthwhile. In Texas, the franchise and income tax issues are basically negligible unless you have a ton of NFA items.

I would like to incorporate for the can, but, for future purchases as well.

I would talk to a lawyer, explain your needs and see what they recommend. It may add an extra $200 or so to the cost; but think of it as insurance against future problems.

quicktime
July 25, 2007, 02:38 AM
As far as I know you can get a "can" just by filling out the proper paperwork paying the 300 fee and making the transaction through a class 3 dealer. If you want to go through your own transaction to obtain a class 3 ffl it is a very detailed and exstensive procedure (translate to expensive). But no matter how you do it make sure that all the t's are crossed and the i's are dotted and have a CPA as well as lawyer on your payroll.

hkmp5g17
July 25, 2007, 05:54 AM
Great "can" thread here

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=159567&highlight=arrested+target+shooting

Frog48
July 25, 2007, 05:56 AM
My CLEO wont sign off on anything.

Just out of curiousity, what city and county are you in?

Mot45acp
July 25, 2007, 01:50 PM
Outside city limits in Hardin County.
Local law enforcement and judges are some of the most corrupt. There are ways to get what you want out of them, but its expensive and illegal. These people ruin lives and give LEOs a bad rep. I do not want to battle it out with them, because next thing I know I will have contraband found on my property or vehicle.

I approached him wanting to build a SBR. I didnt tell him it was for an AR. He didnt ask.

His response: "I dont know why people keep asking me for stuff like silencers or full auto. It is a liability and I will not sign off on it."

I know how to approach people. I was well dressed (khakis and button up shirt) clean shaved. I conducted myself in a professional manner. He was obviously agitated.

wdlsguy
July 25, 2007, 02:39 PM
You might want to ask about signoffs in Hardin County on the Texas Hometown Forum (http://ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=8) at ar15.com. If all else fails, you probably want to form a trust.

Mot45acp
July 26, 2007, 01:45 AM
For my purpose, which is better, a living trust, or incorporate?

Bartholomew Roberts
July 26, 2007, 11:08 PM
What is your purpose? How do you intend to use the item? Do you need more than one person to be able to use it without supervision? Can you tolerate/keep up with annual paperwork (filing the report, taxes, etc.)? Can you trust your officers (if you choose to have them)?

If you set up as a trust will you be the grantor, trustee or beneficiary (or two of those three)? If you are not the beneficiary, then do you need to worry about the person who is the beneficiary accusing you of waste if you play with the NFA item?

Other questions you might ask yourself - are you planning to travel with it? Are you going to use it? If so, how frequently? This is why having a lawyer is handy. They can not only help you choose and organization that best suits your needs; they can also think of questions you haven't even considered in your planning.

Mot45acp
July 26, 2007, 11:26 PM
The silencer will be more for my neighbors than me. Back yard stuff. Only travel would be to and from range.

I am not to good about keeping up on paper work. (never could pay my bills until they emailed em to me.) But the incentive of prison does wonders for us law abiding folks.

I would be the only user. The trust is looking better than incorporating. It seems like the lawyer route is the way to go. Anyone know a good RKBA lawyer in the Beaumont area?

CDignition
July 27, 2007, 12:18 AM
Trust is the ticket. Use Willmaker. It will make a legal document for your state, just follow the directions. PM me if u want more NFO.

Bartholomew Roberts
July 27, 2007, 12:44 AM
Willmaker just uses a form library to make a trust. It will select a form trust that is appropriate to your state. The problem with form trusts (or any other form legal document) is that they are drawn up to be as broad as possible so they are kind of a general "one-size-fits-all" solution.

Having a lawyer draw up the trust does have advantages. He can make it specific to your needs and he can forsee problems that a generic form drafter can't (for one, I'm pretty sure that none of the forms in Quicken Willmaker were ever drafted with the purpose in mind of establishing a trust to hold NFA items). You'll know the trust is valid and the lawyer may be able to suggest changes or ask questions that will help you forsee and avoid some problems.

Using a form document to create a trust will save you money up front - and as long as you have no problems, you'll come out ahead. Using a lawyer-drafted document will cost you more up front; but if you do run into problems it can save you a lot of money.

CDignition
July 27, 2007, 12:54 AM
What would you Add to a trust for specific "NFA " Items??.. What would be your end game there??

What "Problems" are you expecting/Experiencing?

Bartholomew Roberts
July 27, 2007, 09:02 AM
What would you Add to a trust for specific "NFA " Items??.. What would be your end game there??

I don't know enough about trusts to say, that is why I would see a lawyer. Form legal documents may be sufficient to create a trust; but I generally like to know what they actually do - and I don't with trusts.

What "Problems" are you expecting/Experiencing?

To give just one example I am aware of - you cannot be the grantor, trustee and the beneficiary and have a valid trust in many states. Since it is difficult for most of us to get people to give us NFA items, many people with revocable living trusts are both grantor and trustee of their trust. A trustee has certain legal obligations to manage the assets of the trust responsibly and not waste their value for the beneficiary. What happens when you take a valuable mechanical device with a finite mechanical life and put it into a trust? Can you be held liable for its use at a 5-day course? What if you decide you want to do multiple mag dumps through "your" NFA item?

I don't know enough about trust law to know the answers to these questions or to know what the default law with a certain form would be for these types of issues. At first glance it would seem that because the trust is revocable and I have the power to change the beneficiary as a grantor, I could just change the beneficiary if he complained of my use; but I don't know how state law would look at that. That is why I would want to talk to a lawyer.

It strikes me that many gun owners wouldn't even be aware of the problem in the first place and might not have an appreciation for the consequences of assigning legal power to someone you later have a falling out with for one issue or another. They would profit even more from legal advice because a lawyer sees the X% of trusts that do have problems and go to litigation on a regular basis and has a real good idea what can go wrong (and how to avoid it).

CDignition
July 27, 2007, 01:34 PM
If you use the Willmaker, it will not allow you to make an incorrect trust for your state. IF things aren't allowed, it will not let you do it. Trusts work very well to avoid probate expenses and time.

ATC
July 28, 2007, 12:58 PM
I created a trust using Willmaker to have my AKS-74U transferred. Everything worked out just fine and approval was quick.

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