Hi, this is my first post here, but I've been reading this forum for a month now, as these forums have been a great help and provided me a great deal of information in my gun and ammo selection over the past month. Here is my situation:
About a month ago, there was a gang shootout on my street, and my entire neighborhood was out of control for about 2 hours until the police could regain control of the streets. I was not a gun owner at the time, but my neighbors were, and one of them let me borrow his Remington 22 lr carbine rifle. The next day, after getting only 2 hours of sleep, I went to WalMart and purchased a Ruger 10/22 Carbine for home defense (due to cost and because the Ruger 10/22 was the ONLY gun I have experience firing... it was the only gun I felt confident I could hit my target with). I loaded the magazine with CCI Stingers.
The following day, I went to the range to test out a variety of ammo. I have since purchased and tested the CCI Velocitor. In addition to these two CCI rounds, I have also tested bulk Federal and Remington Gold Point. The Federal is the ONLY round that has ever jammed, and it has jammed on multiple occasions. I will not be purchasing this ammo again (even though it is loved by most 10/22 owners).
As far as accuracy is concerned, The CCI Velocitor has performed the best by far, with the Stinger coming in second. The accuracy of the Remington was poor. The Federal's accuracy was the same as the Stinger's, but the jamming problem prevents me from wanting to use it. My tests have been done at ranges of 7 yards to 25 yards (home-defense ranges). So it's a tossup between the Stinger and the Velocitor. The Velocitor is more accurate, which is why it's my personal favorite, but I've read other posts that say the Stinger is better for self-defense. Using the standard gun sights, I'm hitting 9/10 3" targets at 25 yards with the Velocitor and 7.5/10 with the Stinger. At 7 yards, I'm hitting 10/10 with both rounds. Under rapid-fire (firing all 10 rounds as fast as I could... took about 3 seconds from ready fire), free-standing (firing position) conditions at 7 yards (most likely situation for a home-invasion), I've managed to hit a 3" target 10/10 with the Velocitor a couple of times, but my best with the stinger was only 8/10. I think this is probably due to the recoil (the gun tends to rise quite a bit with the Stinger when fired quickly).
I've read that in ballistics gel, the Stinger penetrates better than the Velocitor, but those tests were done with pistols. I think the rifle will have more power, and I think the heaver 40 grain Velocitor vs 32 grain Stinger will be more effective. Then again, the Stinger is a lot faster.
The problem is... every topic I've found has discussed the Stinger vs Velocitor in a pistol.... any thoughts on the use in a rifle? I'm looking for knockdown power (if there is such a thing in a 22).
All thoughts (other than jokes about the lowly 22) would be appreciated. Thanks!
P.S. I'm currently in the process of saving up enough money to purchase a Mossberg 590 so this won't be an issue for much longer, but it would be nice to know for the time being.
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July 24, 2007, 03:02 AM
I wouldn't worry so much about the ballistics, as much as dependable ignition. I have always had reliable ignition with the CCI hard plastic box rounds: Minimags, Stingers, etc. A shouldered rifle can place that bullet where you want, just practice ripping that bolt if you have a misfire IMO.
July 24, 2007, 03:39 AM
Velocitor. The heavier the better.
July 24, 2007, 04:24 AM
Aguila makes two rounds which are better. the 60 grain monster, sniper subsonic, solid chunk of lead, and the new king of speed and weight, the Interceptor. This round is a full 40 grain round, that says on the box 1470fps, I get a full 1550 fps , out of my 20 inch bbl marlin. this is the heaviest , fastest, 22lr on the market. I did some experiment shooting with it , for a ammo dealer.
Results were explosive, literally through wood, solid dirt, and you could even get the red mist effect, of a centerfire hit , on a P dog.
July 24, 2007, 04:30 AM
Welcome to THR
You must realize that the .22 LR is not often the choice for HD use as no matter what you use for ammo it just doesn't have the energy levels to be all that effective. It's not that it can't work , its that it is unlikely to work well enough to stay safe if it comes to it.
That said - use the heavier slugs to attempt to get as much penitration as possible .
July 24, 2007, 04:36 AM
I would go with the Velocitor over the Stingers because of the heavier bullet.
P.S. I'm currently in the process of saving up enough money to purchase a Mossberg 590 so this won't be an issue for much longer, but it would be nice to know for the time being.
I don't know what you paid for the Ruger 10/22 but you can buy a Mossberg 500 for $189. I truly feel you would have been much better off with a 500 than the Ruger. Why are you looking to buy a Mossberg 590?
I bought a Mossberg 500 combo last year for $249 which came with a 28" barrel, wood stocks, an 18.5" barrel, a pistol grip and 3 chokes.
July 24, 2007, 04:47 AM
The stingers are actually of a larger case length then standard .22LR rounds, the velociter is of the standard length. Becuase of that, in a semi auto, I have a feeling that the stinger would 'potentially' jam more often. They are also loaded to higher pressures than normal.
I don't use them becuase I have a match barrell on my 10/22, the bore doesn't like the length of the stingers.
The velociters are a good round, they are coated in a 'copper' like substance that seems to be 'dusted' on. I thought at first it was a metal jacket, but its far from a real one. If anything, it probably decreases leadening but then you get I guess 'coppering' lol. Could be wrong on that, but thats just what I've observed.
The .22LR's have real good penetration, the speed of the 10/22 is very good too, I can unload a 25 round clip in no-time at all with pretty much no recoil. Point being, if you had to actually use it on someone in the street, 5 or so shots would be no problem and I'm sure that said person would go down.
The velociters are a very good round, with a good FPS, they are manufactured to high standards like most CCI ammo and I have had very few jams with them. The worst was winchester hollowpoints, they were cheap and sub-sonic, so I have a feeling there was not always enough pressure to have the bolt function properly, thats why I had so many jams.
July 24, 2007, 05:14 AM
Speaking of a 25 round clip... any idea of who makes the best one? I purchased one by Butler Creek, but it failed to operate with my gun.
Also, the MAIN reason I purchased the Ruger 10/22 for HD was experience with the gun. Again... I needed a gun fast. I needed a gun that I could confidently fire accurately out the box without practice - that night if needed. This was the ONLY gun that I had any experience with. Therefore it was the only gun that even came into consideration. In the past month, I have gone to bed to the sound of gun-fire 2-3 nights a week. (yes... a move out of this hell-hole is planned at the end of August)
Finally, the reason I plan on buying a Mossberg 590 next when perhaps a 500 would do just fine... well... a 590 is so much cooler. And besides, I only want to buy one shotgun. Might as well buy the best.
For my present situation, civil unrest - that is, armed gang members running around my house shooting guns - is not only a real threat, it has actually happened before. This is what I need to defend against. This is why a Mossberg 590 makes more sense than a normal 500. It has a ghost sight, and the extra 3 shots (9 round capacity vs. 6) could make a big difference. Plus I'm getting the 50668 (with SpeedFeed) for an additional 4 easily loaded rounds.
July 24, 2007, 05:29 AM
since this is all u have, get a 25rnd butler creek magazine and make sure to hit them 10 times to kill.
July 24, 2007, 07:53 AM
Check out the rimfirecentral.com for a very active 10/22 group. None of them like the BC mags but I forget who they recommend.
July 24, 2007, 08:11 AM
Velocitors, at least in my guns, both Rugers, shoot like they have eyes.
July 24, 2007, 08:45 AM
Either of those loads would be good choices. I'd go by what is most reliable, and if both feed fine, then go with what you shoot the best.
The Aguila heavy bullet loads are great from a ballistic standpoint, but they may feed less reliably in some guns. IMHO, for a .22, reliability trumps ballistics (within reason), so I'd personally stick with the CCI.
And I personally think you did the right thing by going with something you know you can shoot well now. On a per-shot basis, it doesn't have the incapacitation potential of a shotgun (a 12-gauge is .729 caliber, FWIW), but it is easier to shoot well and IMHO is effective enough.
I would keep trying to find good magazines, though.
July 24, 2007, 08:48 AM
Sorry to hear about the situation. I would say that the first thing to do is move out of the hell hole you are living in! But sometimes job location or money may keep us from going so.
Like others have said, the 22lr is not the first choice for home defense. But if its all you got, then learn how to use it. ALso, its a good rifle and ammo combo to practice after you get a better weapon.
If you have to shoot a gandbanger, shot he one with the weapon and make sure he is put down. Chances are that not all the bangers will be carrying weapon. Maybe one or two, they are expensive and if they do have one, then they are exspected to use it. The one with the weapon is usally "in charge" also. If you take that banger out, the rest will most likey scatter. You have taken away their protector and leader in a way. Majority of gangers are cowards, that is why they use large groups and childish intimadation tactics.
If you can find them, get STEEL LIPS or HOT LIPS mags from BUTLER CREEK. They seem to have the best hit to miss ratio. Just take the mags back and exchange them for ones that do work. Also try to load them a few round short of their max. If its a 25 rounder, then start off with 23 and work your way down till you are able to fire the whole clip.
Also stay away form standard and subsonic ammo. High and Hyper velocity 22lr ammo in your friend in HD. And as stated before, use the heaviest bullet weight and a solid if possible. I personally use CCI stingers in my 22s when the wife uses it for her bedside weapon.
Try to practice at closer than normal rifle ranges. You need to get use to focusing on a small area of a larger target, when using a rimfire. You want to put as many rounds into as little of a space as fast as you can.
Not BSing, but my cousin can fire his 10/22 very quickly, making it sound like its on full auto, to the point of having LEOs at the range come over and check it! We cover out trigger finger with a Band Aid, and then just practicing rebounding the finger off of the front of the inside trigger guard and back into the trigger. In a way, slapping the trigger in a rhythm and speed that allows the timing to fire just as the weapon is finished cycling a new round and resetting the trigger. Yes, it takes practice and alot of Band Aids! His 10/22 only has a beter hammer and he polished the innerds, but not to the point of being unsafe. Mine is stock, one of the few 10/22s they escaped the factory without a 20# trigger! His has a $150 reddot on top and a Carbon Fiber barrel and tacticool stock. Mine is completetly stock and I took to sights, both front and back off of mine, my wife has a $30 Wal Mart reddot on hers. He and I train with them weekly, and can put three to four rounds into a 2" area at a distance of seven yards. He can due it quicker, but he is 20 and I'm 37. We do not use sights, just "point firing" using our eyes as the guide for the bullets (his reddot is turned off). This calls for a more upright posittion of your head on the stock. We both use the STEEL LIPs from Butler Creek, but only normally put 20 rounds into them for practice.
Get your Mossberg ASAP! And the 500 in the closet is better than a 590 on layaway! I mean the 500 will due everything the 590 will, it just won't stand up to the use as well. The 500 has a few more plastic parts in areas where they might break or fail if used alot. But them I have an old 500 in 20ga, and know of many more in 12ga, that has standup to alot of heavy dove, duck, and squrriel loads over the years. But most folks only fire thier HD shottys a few times a year and put them back into the closet. Nothing wrong with that, after the initial training with them, its just that shotties just isn't as fun to shoot for most folks. They are a true affordable HD weapon.
Rick, I hope your situation improves. Take what you need and leave the rest, when it comes to advise from boards. You are the only one that has to live with your actions. Actions you take will most likely affect a future of yourself or someone else.
On a lighter note, welcome to the wonderful world of firearm ownership! Try to train with your weapons as much as you can. This can mean dry firing at home to range time. Also try to stick with longguns for home defense. Handguns have a place, but they take more training and a higher degree of skill that most new guys don't have at first. But please go and buy one and practice with it as soon as you get a good HD shotty and get every possible add on for your 10/22!
July 24, 2007, 11:50 AM
for the same money as that ruger, you could have bought a shotgun.
you say you will buy a 500, why? if you want the best, get an 870. PERIOD.
Rimfires are never recommended for HD as they do not have the same reliability as centerfire ammo. I would offer that the Remington 870 can be found almost anywhere used for under 200 and usually right around 150 for worn but still usable versions. A shotgun will have ten or more times the energy than a .22 has. It will have nearly 20 times the lead going down range with every trigger pull. (there are 437.5 grains in an ounce. and most heavy buckshot loads are 1 3/4 ounces. or about 765 grains, or 19+ times 40 grains of a .22) Which would you rather have.
Older 870s out there have no plastic and are all fully machined and if you are old enough to buy one, then you are too old to ever wear one out by shooting it. Remington used to have one that had fired something like 2 million rounds, in the ammo dept. It was still working last time I was at the factory.
Do not worry about recoil, there is not a healthy grown man on the planet who can not manage the recoil of a 12 guage.
July 24, 2007, 12:03 PM
"This is why a Mossberg 590 makes more sense than a normal 500. It has a ghost sight, and the extra 3 shots (9 round capacity vs. 6) could make a big difference. Plus I'm getting the 50668 (with SpeedFeed) for an additional 4 easily loaded rounds."
Hehe....yeah right. Who needs 13 rounds from a shotgun for HD? That's insane. The 500's six-round capacity should be more than enough. Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy? Why have you put up with these so-called "gangs" this long? I would have moved a long time ago.
July 24, 2007, 12:07 PM
Which .22 for home defense? Ideally, neither. In your situation, the one that runs best in your gun.
1. Get a mess of .22 ammo and see what works. Use that.
2. Save up some money and get a shotgun. I prefer the Remington 870, but there is nothing wrong with Mossberg. Go to a local gun shop and look for police trade-in pump action guns. They will look beat to heck, but they'll run.
3. Load with buckshot, not birdshot.
4. Continue to save up, and get some practical training with the shotgun.
5. DO NOT SKIP STEP #4.
July 24, 2007, 01:13 PM
FWIW, I think you did the right thing in your immediate situation by getting a gun you were familiar with. A .22 isn't ideal for the purpose but it is better than harsh words.
As to ammo, reliability in the gun trumps ballistic niceties like muzzle velocity or hollowpoint bullets. You need to feed the gun what it will run as flawlessly as possible. Experimenting with a variety of ammo is the key to discovering what it likes. At the point where several favorites emerge, I personally would go for the heaviest weight solid bullet available among the leaders in reliability.
I once was forced by circumstances to carry a .22 (a Beretta Jaguar pistol in my case), and it was always loaded with 40 grain high velocity solids. Fortunately for me it shot like a target pistol, and i could shoot it reasonably well also.
You have two primary considerations with the 10-22- placement, and penetration. Placement is yours to control, penetration is a factor of the ammunition you choose. Choose ammo that will penetrate, don't waste time worrying about expansion in a .22 rimfire.
Stay safe, and get moved out of there ASAP,
The Deer Hunter
July 24, 2007, 01:43 PM
July 24, 2007, 09:12 PM
I'm gonna have to go with the Stingers ;)
July 24, 2007, 09:28 PM
I would suggest that you stick with the Ruger 10 round magazines. I have had some extended magazines that worked fine, such as the TI-25, but none that would do so if they were left loaded for an extended period. You can buy a little doodad that clips two Ruger mags together base to base, and so have a reload on the gun.
As to the ammo thing, Velocitors are great, and really cycle guns briskly. CCI Quik-Shok is quite a round, too. It's like a Stinger, but the bullet is made of four segments that split apart on impact. The critters I've shot with it usually display one entrance hole and four exit holes.
Don't Tread On Me
July 24, 2007, 10:24 PM
As for the questions asked in this thread:
Velocitor by far. It is the heaviest and fastest .22LR you can get. It is the hardest hitting. **haven't read about the Interceptor...look into that, new product.
A firearm is better than NO firearm. So the 10/22 isn't bad, it is just far from ideal. I'd even argue that the pathetic .22LR might even be more effective in the hands of a complete novice than other hard to use options. Gun has zero recoil, and when I took my cousin to the range for the first time in his life, he was rapid firing (dumping the entire mag) in about 2 seconds and hitting a 6" steel plate at 25 yards. First time ever. That proves to me that it *can* be useful for self defense. I don't think some perp is going to keep attacking you after taking 7 out of 10 rounds of .22LR to the chest/face. Ballistically, the 10/22 moves that .22LR as fast as it will get. Velocitors should do 1,300fps for certain. That is more powerful than snub nose .22mag revolvers, and those have dropped people (like Bobby Kennedy) with decent shot placement. The problem is, 10/22 might be the most reliable .22LR autoloader, but it isn't reliable enough. The mags and the round itself just isn't consistent enough to make me feel safe.
About a month ago, there was a gang shootout on my street, and my entire neighborhood was out of control for about 2 hours until the police could regain control of the streets. I was not a gun owner at the time, but my neighbors were, and one of them let me borrow his Remington 22 lr carbine rifle. The next day, after getting only 2 hours of sleep, I went to WalMart and purchased a Ruger 10/22 Carbine for home defense
If you are serious about self defense you will move up in caliber. Seriously, a gang shootout on your street? Go buy a more effective firearm NOW. If you cannot afford it, charge it. I'm anti credit card debt, but this is an exception since it is essentially emergency gear. It is something worth charging if you have to. Get something reasonable. You can find good self defense firearms for under $300. That is not a lot of money and can be paid off easily. The Mossberg you speak of is a good choice. There are others though. If you do not live in the socialist republik of california, I'd get a Saiga rifle, SKS or the cheapest AK I could find. If you live in an anti-gun hellhole, then you're probably going to have to settle for a good shotgun. Shotguns can be had for cheap and they are reliable and effective. If you cannot get a Saiga, SKS or AK - then "hunter" style autoloaders are much more expensive in the $500-$600 range and probably not doable. If you have the choice due to where you live, go for the centerfire autoloaders I listed above because they are more effective than shotguns, faster to shoot, less recoil and just easier to use. If you get the shotgun, take it to the range and practice with it. Get familiar with having to pump and shoot to where it becomes natural and automatic to reload after each shot. Do not buy anything stupid like an all pistol grip shotgun. That is about the most useless firearm on Earth. No gimmicks. Just a normal solid shotgun. Get the shortest barrel model you can find or get in that price range. You do not need to load it with magnums or slugs. You're just going to increase the recoil and costs of shooting. Do not use birdshot either. Remember Cheney?
July 24, 2007, 10:41 PM
for defence I would go with neither, but if I had to use a .22 for defense I would load it with velociters. I would also move up in caliber as soon as I could.
July 24, 2007, 10:45 PM
Where do you live? Got a news link to this shootout? Should make for an interesting read.
July 24, 2007, 11:29 PM
I would use the Aquila SSS 60-grain rounds. They are not very loud, and they penetrate like crazy. The only thing to be aware of is that, since they are subsonic, they are really a 50-yard round. But, they will really do the job (well, for a .22).
July 24, 2007, 11:43 PM
Where do you live? Got a news link to this shootout? Should make for an interesting read.You'd think. However, I can think of multiple shootouts with basically the whole neighborhood involved (mini riots, really) that made page 3 where I work...if that. If the media aren't too busy making something out of nothing, they're occupied turning something into nothing.
July 25, 2007, 12:09 AM
A used 12 gauge would have inexpensive and more dependable, IMHO.
.22 would is pretty good, i suppose, if you're attacked be a gang of squirrels.
July 25, 2007, 12:31 AM
I'll give you the link to the article, but you're going to be pretty disappointed. Amazingly, only one person died that night. When I called police at 11:00 pm to find out what was going on, they told me they already had 3 people shot and 3 people in custody, but there were many more still on the streets. They told me to stay indoors. I took it a step further and resorted to what I had done in Turkey when the air-raid sirens went off. I turned out all the lights, drew the curtains, and lit candles.
The article was only interested in helping police discover who killed the person who died. Unfortunately, Jacksonville is the number 1 murder capital in Florida so murders don't get a lot of attention in this town. The news does a whole lot to down-play them in order to hide the fact that there are so many. It's not like a murder is anything new to those of us who live here. So if it's not out of the ordinary, it's not news! Anyway, here is the article if you are really interested:
Why the need for a fancy defense gun just because it's "cool" :rolleyes: If you can't afford the 590, just go with a used Mossberg 500. They start out about $140 used at gun shops.
Might also look into the Maverick 88, which is basically an economy Mossberg 500 with plastic stock and some minor downgrades. Most sporting goods chains have the Maverick 88 with 18.5" defender barrel for about $160 new.
July 25, 2007, 03:19 AM
There's certainly not a lot of indication from that "news story" what was going on in the area.
RickyD, you need to get someone to get you up to speed on a riot gun as soon as you can manage it. You have one in mind already from what you've said here and IMO it's a good choice, but you need to have the skillset to use it effectively as soon as you get it reassembled after its first-thing-out-of-the-box cleaning (and yes, they do need a good cleaning right out of the box to get the gunk off them/out of them the factory coats them with for protection while shipping). Maybe there's a fellow THR member in the area who can help you get started if you need help, or perhaps you have a friend or family member you could ask.
And just as soon as you can, you need to get yourself and your new gun out to the range, where you can begin running rounds through it. You need to learn what loads it likes best and how it performs at different ranges. You should have a selection of a few rounds of several different buckshot and slug loads to test eventually, and some light birdshot loads of good quality to start out learning with if you're new to shotgunning.
Meanwhile stay safe,
July 25, 2007, 04:40 AM
Again, velocitor is not the heaviest, fastest round, this is:
like i said, 1500 fps + out of my marlin.
July 25, 2007, 07:02 AM
A man who can shoot a 22 rifle can easily turn a crowd. The 22lr is way underrated. You have a mob and the only thing you have is a 22 rifle and the confidence to shoot it you are going to wreak havoc and lots of it. No loud boom to turn the crowd but you will see alot of stinging and hurting going on. That 22 rifle will probably kill more during a situation he encountered than a shotgun would. Granted a shotgun will stop and turn a mob, which is what you want but a 22lr will inflict terrible damage in its own right. Way underrated for damage to a human being. They require just a little training for confidence and repeatability when the time comes for it. Sting a couple at the front of the mob leading the pack and the rest will see what's going on. Stand your ground and sting a few more if you have to and they will get the message. It is still a rifle and if looked at the wrong way after the fact you could be brought up on charges so you have to be very sure you are actually defending yourself or your family.
An old woman shot a burglar with a 22 pistol and the guy had extensive surgury done because the bullet traveled from one side of his ribcage and veered down wreaking havoc. After he got shot he couldn't get out of there fast enough from that eighty year old woman, she had powerful medicine.
A criminal basically is a coward, he picks the softest target he can find. That 22 bullet found some soft tissue right back.
I have killed alot of hogs in my lifetime with the same 22 rifle I have now and their skull is quite thick, think about that.
I also have a 22 power hammer that drives nails into concrete, granted the cartridges are 22 caliber and are not the same but the first time I sent a nail into concrete with one made me a believer in the power of a 22 short and a long rifle just the same.
I had to shoot a fox last year that was so ate up with the mange that it was at the time not acting normal and at that time all I could get my hands on was the family single shot and a 22 short. I dropped him at 40 yards, the first time I ever seen an animal get moved because of a 22 short. Deader than a doornail.
I have had good luck with 22 stingers, very fast rounds but to be honest any quality and dependable round that has a decent speed will do. You need the speed to cycle the action. Test them first to find the dependability for your rifle and when you order the type tested buy them by the brick.
Very versatile cartridge and caliber the 22, most people just don't know with the exception of those who are into 22's. Check out THR. The firing line and there is a 22 forum out there somewhere. You never know, you might strike up a hobby.
July 25, 2007, 10:09 AM
A lot of good advice here. Some contradictory but good. Let me add my $.02
First one assumes you intend to stay in your own house and barracade your self and others in a single room.
This would mean you have a narrow well defined area which needs to be covered.....like a door way.
If you plan to go out into the street be aware that the .22 will loose some of its effective ness and once some one gets lucky and hits you with a stolen .25 ACP from half a football field away it will simply provide the bad guys with more weaponry.
Allthough it is based around handgun use I would advice you to take the NRA Personal Protection in the home course as soon as possible. See if you can find an instructor that will loan you a handgun for the quarter of the course that involves shooting.
This will make you familiar with your state and local gun laws and more importantly laws regarding the use or threatened use of deadly force. It will also make you aware of possible problems you have not thought of with your current defensive plans. It will teach you some information valuable to making defensive plans for your castle.
I second getting a cheap but usable shotgun as soon as possible to begin training with. If you are interested in oneday having the Mossy 590 you may wish to get a good used 500 in the mean time. A bead will work at in house distances, even for slug work. If you spend some time and effort playing shtgun games like skeet or trap you may even find you quickly develope some ability to shoot head up and point well enough for in house use ( I will now prepare to defend myself from tacticool shotgun folks) But mainly learning to maintain, handle and keep running a "sporting gun" will apply to you super trooper bad guy shooter you get in the future.
During bad times my primary house long gun is a Mossy 500 GR. That is a basic Mossy 500 with the Ghost Ring sights, and sling swivels and mine happens to have plastic stocks (what was I thinking?) One of the main reasons I got it was that most of my earlier pump shot gun experience had been with a Mossy 500 with wood furnature a bead front and an adjustable choke. All th econtrols were in the same place and worked the same way, loading ans unloading safely were the same and it came to point much the same though the shorter barrel did not swing the same (and the cylinder choke proved a poor performer at skeet, though great with buckshot and foster style slugs for HD applications)
I think getting a gun you know how to use was a great idea whatever caliber it is. Depending on who you talk to the first or second rule of gunfighting is "Have a gun" (alternative first "stay out of gunfights")
I personally would rather have a used sporting shotgun added to my battery in a few weeks rather than a tacticool shotgun in thrice as much time. Then during the time you are saving up for you tacticool gun you can be training with the plain jane model and have the plane jane model if you need a shotgun before you could get the tacticool shotgun. A bad guy soaking up a load of whatever sized shot or slug at across the room distances is not going to notice or care if you had a tacticool shotgun and his buddies behind him are not likely to wait around to find out the model and type of shotgun either. Also you may find that a shotgun is not the best choice for you and so if you find that out with the used gun think how much you might save and how much sooner you might get something you do like.
As to ammo choice for a .22 LR in HD:
I agree with those that say reliability of mechanical action is more important than terminal ballistics. I would rather know with absolute certainty that the gun was going to fire everytime I pulled the trigger rather than that it might have a Marshall and Sanow one shot stop number of 21 percent verses 14 percent. That is BTW what you are looking at iirc. WHen I carried a Beretta M21A as a pocket gun I always carried Winchester Super X solids..... for the simple reason that I found that the most reliable feeding and reliable go boom cartridge. Way long time ago when my only handgun was a Ruger RST4 and it was half my HD battery because everything else was not particullarly appropriate either I chose the same load for the same reason. WHen I got out of the service at one point and all my suitable guns were in a crate awaiting import approval ( for a couple of months) I had to make do initialy with a tube fed .22 LR rifle and guess what, yep you got it I went for mechanical reliability over imagined improvements in terminal ballistics. I also went out immediately and started lookingthrough the local gun stores for a used shotgun I thought reasonable. Not suggesting you do so but I eneded up with a double barrel hammer gun in 12 Gauge that I then used as my primary HD gun but still kept the .22 loaded and handly. Had I found a Mossy 500 with somethng other than a long barrel at a price I could have afforded that weekend I wouldhave bought it, but the coach gun seemed simple and reliable and a step up from a .22LR. I kept the gun about six months then traded it away at a little profit. You may find you can trade away a used sporting shotgun to help you make up for the money you spend on your tacticool dream gun BTW....or you may find you can save by making do with the less showy gun.
Good luck wading through all the opinions.
July 25, 2007, 12:00 PM
Go with the velocitors. When all I had was my 22/45, thats what I kept in it.
And for now make sure your 10/22 is reliable and broken in.
July 25, 2007, 12:53 PM
What's up with all the remarks ridiculing the guy for wanting a 590?
So what if you got 13 rounds? My Ruger holds 15 in the factory mags and I would love to have a couple Mec-Gar 17 rounders. And the AK holds 30.
Want a 590? By all means... Save your pennies and make your home just a little safer with one.
As for the 10/22, I can also second the comments about reliablity and CCI ammo. Twenty-two is relatively cheap so you should be able to put 1K through it in practice/reliability testing to make sure it will work. I'll agree that I feel much for comfortable with a 12 gauge, but if a .22 is what you have and you have to make it work it makes sense to me. After all, I just stepped back to a 9mm because I didn't like fighting the tremors a .40 was giving me. Shoot what you can control.
Someone once made the comment that firepower is bullets hitting targets, not just flying through the air. By that reasoning, a 10/22 would offer VERY good firepower to most new shooters. And FYI, I have tested .22LR HV rounds (CCI) on an old car. They shot completely through both sides. If they can punch through two old (meaing late '70's) car doors, they can shoot through someone trying to kill you.
July 25, 2007, 05:55 PM
Wow that's a pretty small blurb.
For the price of the 590, I would go with a WASR10(AK47). Mags are cheap. Ammo is cheap...relatively speaking. Easier to shoot than heavy shotgun loads. If you have a Dunhams down there, they go on sale regularly for around $300.
July 25, 2007, 07:46 PM
RickyD,you have the 10/22 so get a few factory mags.They always work.Next go buy a Mossberg Maverick 12 guage with an 18.5 bbl. new or used as your budget dictates.Get some cheap ammo at Wal-mart and practice shooting.Then get some 00Buck for HD.Check it for function and accuracy and you'll be good to go.YMMV.tom.:cool:
July 25, 2007, 09:50 PM
I will throw a little out there.
1. Good move buying the 10/22. You can keep it forever and it will last forever. Since it was the only thing you knew how to use at the time it made a lot of sense. A gun is way better than no gun or a gun you are either incompetent with or have no confidence in.
2. Buy a shotgun when you can afford it. Learn how to use it and load it with HP slugs. Don't use buckshot unless you never plan on shooting past 25 feet.
3. Load your 10/22 until then with the most reliable ammo you can find. Don't use Hollow Points (HP) unless that is the only thing that works well. You will get better penetration with solids and they will bounce around and cause just as much damage as a HP if not more.
4. Don't waste any more money on hicap mags. Even the best ones are not as reliable as the factory ten rounders. Instead buy several factory mags. Also buy a magazine quick release from an on line store such as Cheaper Than Dirt or Sportsmen Guide. This four dollar part takes five minutes to install and will halve your magazine reload times.
5. If you decide to stay with the 10/22 buy a pistol grip stock that extends such as the one Tapco sells and mount a red dot scope. This will make your gun much handier and still weigh the same. But a shotgun is still better.
6. .22 RF is a horrible penetrator. Last weekend I tested a number of rounds against an old computer and noticed that none would go through a thin layer of plastic and two layers of sheet metal. This included HV, HP, 60 gr Aquila, solids and several different brands. They alll bounced off the second layer of sheet metal despite multiple hits in the same spot. What this means to me is that they will not go through a car door, exit my house (except through a window), go through most furniture etc.....
Within it's limitations the .22RF is a fine round, the problem is it is so limited.
BTW- Not much difference between the two rounds, but I prefer Stingers.
July 25, 2007, 10:29 PM
CCI ammo--and factory mags.
Failing this, buy hi-cap single stack (not staggered) mags. Forget the 'drums' and such. I've have 2 Choate plastic hi caps (25 rnd) for over twenty years and not had a problem. The best bet is to run MANY rounds through the mag before you bet on it, and treat it gently. As said, you'll NEVER match the reliability standard of the Ruger rotary mag.
Be careful, keep those shades drawn, and sleep behind brick!
And remember--that .22 stinger outclasses a .380 ACP fired from a pistol in terms of energy. And yes, the Mos. 590 or 500 will be a one-up.
If you want that 10/22 to look 'meaner' on a budget--spray the factory wood stock with a hi-quality flat black epoxy spray paint.
July 31, 2007, 06:02 AM
Titan6 Quoted: 6. .22 RF is a horrible penetrator. Last weekend I tested a number of rounds against an old computer and noticed that none would go through a thin layer of plastic and two layers of sheet metal.
Human flesh is not sheet metal. Ask the guy who robbed an elderly couple up here in Md why he had to go through 5 hours of surgery. Granted the 22LR isn't the greatest round of Home defence choice but again the 22LR gets under rated.
Perfect round to train with and gain confidence to boot. Shouldn't be the first weapon of choice but a rifle is still a rifle.
July 31, 2007, 09:51 PM
STINGERS! Anyways, two hours to restore order? Time to move brother. If not understood, think about 9mm or 40 S&W with some Speer Golddots, or a 12 Ga. with some Dead Coyote T Shot.:D:D
P.S. Get a Glock
August 1, 2007, 12:27 AM
Check out the rimfirecentral.com for a very active 10/22 group. None of them like the BC mags but I forget who they recommend
the best 25's on the market
expensive but built very very well. (no failures....for me anyway)
August 1, 2007, 02:33 PM
Ignore the mossberg vs winchester wars, please. Get a good, cheap shotgun from one of the following choices:
Maverick 88, Mossberg 500 (8 shot HD magazine version if you want), Remington 870. Unless you plan on using the shotgun as a melee weapon or to shield yourself from shrapnel or blast waves from explosives, the plastic parts are not going to be a concern. You aren't planning on fighting a war here. The 870 is probably a LITTLE more solidly built, and it's more likely to be found as a police trade-in (used), but there are some good points in favor of the Mossberg too, like the ambidextrous thumb safety (DO NOT USE A PISTOLGRIP ON THE MOSSBERG, it puts the safety/slide release in an akward position) and perfect placement of the slide release for right-handers. Any of these shotguns is an excellent choice. Use buckshot, probably 00 Buckshot is the easiest to find at Walmart. If you really want the 590, ask yourself if you are planning on firing dozens of rounds at a time (that's the only reason for the heat shield), or if you really need 9 rounds vs 8 (the HD model of the 500 has 8 rounds, and can take a speedfeeder stock as well, or just a sidesaddle/stock sleeve for an additional 4-6 rounds). I mean, you are planning on holing up in one room of your place and pointing the 12 gauge at the door right (no windows in the room I hope). Once you start to fire the 12 gauge, do you really expect them to keep coming after you? Do you really need that many rounds? Please.
Like the man said, get some training too.
August 1, 2007, 03:51 PM
And remember--that .22 stinger outclasses a .380 ACP fired from a pistol in terms of energy
Neo-Luddite, you keep posting this information, but you've never cited any source. Previously, you've claimed the Stinger achieves 325 ft/lbs. That number does match up with anyone's numbers I've ever seen. Even CCI's ballistics show it at 191 ft/lbs out of a rifle which puts it on the lower end of performance of a .380 handgun. The faster Aguila rounds only reach out 204 ft/lbs at the muzzle.
You really need to quit propagating this myth about a .22LR being more powerful than a .380 unless you've got some evidence to back it up.
August 4, 2007, 12:29 AM
Get an 870. It's cheaper than the mossberg, and better. Get it with a short barrel and use the money you saved buying the less expensive gun to buy a pistol grip.
Sure, the pistol grip makes it worse on the range, but in a situation where you have to defend yourself, your target won't be a tiny orange frisbee. And the more maneuverable and compact your shotgun is, the more likely it will be with you in a hurry.
Marlin 45 carbine
August 4, 2007, 07:04 AM
use solid nose ammo in that 10-22, practice with it and get a reliable 25 rd. magazine. Butler Creek steel lips are great. Velocitors are good hard hitting. I can't count the deer I've killed (many over 200 pounds) with one shot from my .22 LR rifles. all of the head shots I took dropped in their tracks.
and don't tale any crap from that howling mob, just burn 5-6 rounds their way real fast like, they will get the message.
August 4, 2007, 06:34 PM
You did the right thing by buying a weapon that you know how to operate and have experiance with.
I also have to say that I am glad you have the right mindset. You wont allow yourself to be a victim.
I think the Mossberg 590 is a fine choice for a defensive shotgun. I myself have a Remington 870 and it hasn't failed me yet haha.
However, you said you wanted the ghost ring sights on your shotgun, I would advise against these for home defense useage.
My reasoning is that while they are great sights to have on a gun for longer distances, home defense ranges are almost always too close for comfort, and trying to get the sights perfectly on target could cost you in the long run. Go with a simple bead sight, its all you will need.
I myself also prefer wood stocked weapons as to polymer. I know the wood wont crack if I have to use my shotgun like a louisville slugger :evil:
August 6, 2007, 03:41 AM
Like I said in my first post, the Velociters because they are heavier than the Stingers.
Velociter = 40 gr @ 1435 FPS & 183 ft/lbs of energy
Stinger = 32 gr @ 1640 FPS & 191 ft/lbs of energy
You will do more damage with the 40 gr bullet at that speed IMO.
Keep your head down and be safe!!
August 6, 2007, 11:32 AM
Reliability is more important than the number of rounds you can send down range. I would stick to the 10 round factory mags. I would also stick with a 40 grain bullet. Penetration to vital organs is more important than bullet speed. Looking to a 'better' gun for self defense is also a good idea. The ruger is a great gun, but not the best for most. I prefer the Rem. 870, Win. 1300, and Ithaca 87 over Mossberg, YMMV.
March 14, 2010, 02:50 PM
A .22 will work great for self defense if you can place multiple center mass shots in rapid succession or take a head shot. This is impractical, not impossible, but mostly foolish. Personally, my choice for home defense is a S&W N-frame model 629 .44mag. If you hit a target anywhere on their torso or center mass with (1) 300 grain .44mag hydra-shock, regardless of their size, they are done...even a grizzly bear is done! I do, however LOVE the .22 round. It has its place in the world beyond plinking. My 10/22 loaded with CCI Velocitor, supersonic (1435fps) 40 grain hollow points is a formidable weapon within 85 meters. Think I am crazy? Try it yourself. Find a hefty phonebook and saturate it with warm water. Set it out at 50 meters, and stand it against a flat, firm backstop like a piece of plywood. Shoot one side of the book with a CCI Velocitor. Next, shoot the other side with a CCI Stinger (32 grain, 1640 fps hollow point.) See for yourself how the two .22lr rounds compare. For me it was a no brainer, despite the CCI Stinger's speed, it just didnt have the energy to penetrate completely. The Velocitor on the other hand, with it's 40 grain Gold Dot hollow point was a devastating thru and thru with really nice cavitation and a surprisingly large exit hole. I do believe that a well placed shot to the head with a CCI Velocitor will take down a deer or a large man. To the best of my knowledge, hunting deer anywhere in the USA with ANY .22lr is illegal, and for good reason. Most people would merely injure the deer and let it run around for a week and die a slow painful death. This is not to say that a proficient shooter in a life-or-death survival situation could not feed himself REALLY well with a handful of CCI Velocitor rounds, and/or defend himself adequately. I have not yet tried the Aguila 60 grain .22lr, but when I do, I will definitely let you all know what I discover. For all of you who love to shoot 5.56 but dont want to send 2 quarters down range each time you pull the trigger, I recommend the Ruger 10/22 with any number of aftermarket stock/furniture options. Nordic Components even makes a very high quality "AR-22" conversion kit which is sure to please any "black gun" enthusiast. High quality, modified .22lr bolts and magazines for the AR-15 are also available. I hope you found my little bit of research helpful. Happy shooting Everyone!
March 14, 2010, 02:57 PM
DEAD THREAD ALERT
Talk about waking a thread from the dead. This thread was almost 3 years inactive. No need to relive it now.
March 14, 2010, 04:02 PM
Geno, MadMax and his Ruger 10/22 had to chime in...3 years late! :cuss:
As you can see RickyD the OP has been real active too! ROTFLMAO - 3 postings in 3 years. Way to go Ricky! :D Maybe he picked the wrong 22lr defence ammo and things didn't go his way. :eek:
March 14, 2010, 04:36 PM
Glad u got the 10/22 as its better than nothing and can be fun to shoot which is the plus in all this. I'd say the heavier CCI round too.
And, frankly, given the expense, I too would recommend a Mossberg 500 Security package -- 18.5: barrel for home and a 28" for sporting purpose and most practice. These are at least as reliable as anything an incredible value, powerful at 5+1 and easy to reload, ergonomic, short, light...
March 14, 2010, 05:37 PM
Actually, when you search for "CCI stinger vs. Velocitor," this thread comes up first. People don't like to look farther than they have to for helpful information. I posted some helpful information. Don't like it, don't read it. The last post on this thread was 9/9/09.
March 14, 2010, 05:51 PM
The former last post in the thread was on:
August 6, 2007, 11:32 AM
So, "...don't get mad, just walk away, lento." :rolleyes:
March 14, 2010, 07:55 PM
From the description, this could be Richmond or Oakland, CA. Parts of these cities can be rendered temporarily lawless and the citizen will need to rely upon his own devices.
Let's all take a quick reality check for a moment. Gangs are looking for easy prey. A .22 is easily enough to send them looking elsewhere. My minimum load is .38 spl Corbon DPX and I max out at .357 158 gr. Gold Dot hollowpoints and Federal 12 ga. 00 Buck. That's to stop absolutely anything. Roving gangs looking for quick scores and home invasion sex assaults aren't going to approach anything shooting back. A .22 is plenty to fend them off with and the OP is spot-on target.
you say you will buy a 500, why? if you want the best, get an 870. PERIOD.
I went with the 500 and am really happy with the choice. This gun is just rock solid. The more I fire it the better it gets. I love the Mossberg. Shooting it, you can feel how it will cut a person in half. It cycles smoothly and reliably. Once you get it going, it has a rhythm that just keeps wanting to go and go. I have not fired an 870 and maybe that's a better gun - but the 500 is a perfectly solid weapon and like the 686 it makes me feel invincible when I'm holding it.
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