22lr enough to go through human bone/skull?


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bdjansen
July 24, 2007, 05:10 AM
The reason I am asking such a morbid question is I seem to find people who think that it will and many that think it wont. Frankly, I think it would yet have no desire to test that theory myself. :) But there are enough people who say things like I knew a guy who was shot in the face with x number of 22s and the doctor pulled them out of his sinuses. And those people have made me have doubts.

So what is the scientific way to look at this? Does anybody know the density/strength of human bone vs. the amount of force/velocity of a 22lr? Something like that? Im no scientist but Im sure that some of you guys are a lot closer to one then me.

Please no stories of who your mailman knew and what he survived from. Without pictures it didn't happen right? :) Just science please.

No, this is not an is a 22 good for self defense? thread. Im just curious.

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CNate
July 24, 2007, 05:18 AM
Think about it this way..even if it doesn't inflict a fatal wound, if you shoot someone in the face with a 22, it's not going to feel good.

yongxingfreesty
July 24, 2007, 05:31 AM
^^ exactly what he said. wouldn't want to get shot with a .177 pellet.

shot in the forehead, i dont think it would penetrate all the way coming from a pistol. if shot at an angle, it might even bounce off. HAHAH

crazed_ss
July 24, 2007, 06:19 AM
Probably depends on the distance and the angle that the round strikes at.. Saw this on the news the other day.
http://www.10news.com/news/13732215/detail.html

At 11:33 p.m. Saturday, a Hispanic male fired a .22-caliber rifle at a group of people partying at a house at 2761 Treat St., hitting one person in the back of the head.

The 18-year-old victim was taken to a local hospital and is expected to survive

bdjansen
July 24, 2007, 06:44 AM
Well, of course it would hurt. But that's not what I'm asking.

yongxingfreesty seems to think that a 22 from a pistol would not penetrate the forehead. Any data to back this up?

Double Naught Spy
July 24, 2007, 06:44 AM
You should have your doubts. .22 lr is a tiny low power projectile, especially when fired from a pistol.

So what is the scientific way to look at this? Does anybody know the density/strength of human bone vs. the amount of force/velocity of a 22lr? Something like that? I’m no scientist but I’m sure that some of you guys are a lot closer to one then me.

As noted, you need to know the velocity at impact and the angle of impact on the skull. Velocity will be tied directly to muzzle velocity and distance from the target. You also need to know what bone(s) are being struck, if it is an area covered with hair, and the health and bone density of the person being struck. A child, old person, or person with osteoporosis will have weaker bones. A person with various forms of anemia-related conditions can have substantially thickened cranial bones on the top of the head.

Once you know all these things, then you might begin to be able to predict whether or not it will penetrate. Unfortunately, you won't know all these things before a shooting and so prediction is more difficult.

Hkmp5sd
July 24, 2007, 06:47 AM
Yep. It's quite effective. The Israeli Massad used to issue their agents Beretta .22s as their primary carry weapon. It was also the caliber used by the Massad when they took out some of the terrorist responsible for the 1972 Olympic murders.

As an aside, in the video Deadly Effects: Wound Ballistics, they discuss a BG that was hit 49 times with assorted LEO 9mm rounds and continued to function until taken out by a shotgun slug. Placement is alot. They also show some dead guys with single .22LR wounds.

Geno
July 24, 2007, 06:55 AM
There is a video that has the information. I posted the info about a year back. Search under my name and look for such words as video, etc. The author sought out medical doctors, etc. These were autopsies, police videos, photos. It is NOT for the weak. Here they are:

1) Deadly Weapons: Firearms and Firepower, ANITE Productions.

2) Deadly Effects: Wound Ballistics, ANITE Productions.

bdjansen
July 24, 2007, 07:09 AM
I did some googling while I was typing up my last post. I found some interesting studies on the "Deep Blue at the University of Michigan" site.

The study was done on femur bones (the strongest bones in the human body) with steel balls of .25 an inch diameter.

I was amazed. The bone was shattered and "completely separated the distal end from the shaft" at only 51.1 ft-lbs! The photograph makes me queezy just looking at it.

It also took less then 10 ft-lbs to put neat little round holes all the way through the bone. Anything less had a chance of getting stuck in the bone. But 10 ft-lbs is nothing.

The density of the bone had almost no effect either. They tested osteoporotic bones as well as normal ones.

This proves that a 22lr from any barrel has more then enough strength to pass through a femur and would not have any trouble passing through the weaker skull.

It seems that many people in this forum highly underestimate the power of their firearms.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Shear_stress
July 24, 2007, 07:27 AM
This proves that a 22lr from any barrel has more then enough strength to pass through a femur and would not have any trouble passing through the weaker skull.

Not so. The geometry of the skull is much different from the femur, and has features that can help distort or deflect bullets. In addition, the skull contains a large wad of grey goo that is highly energy absorbing. Don't also forget the fact that the tissue (skin, fat, and muscle) surrounding the skull can play a role in energy absorbtion.

Will a .22LR go through a skull? Yes. No. Maybe.

jdm1986
July 24, 2007, 08:18 AM
I have read of several suicides being carried out with a .22lr pistol/revolver. I don't know if these were "gun people" or not; most likey not; because I doubt someone knowledgeable in firearms of different calibers would choose something like .22lr., that is if they REALLY wanted to die. (however it might be that's all they have, or are trying to make less of a mess, I suppose)

The barrel sitting on the temple of the head would most likely kill someone, I would assume.

I guess you asked for science, which I can't provide. However, there are numerous recorded suicides with .22lr (and I'm sure many more attempted suicides with the round).

joab
July 24, 2007, 08:28 AM
I don't know what the density difference between raccoon skulls and human skulls is, but I can tell you that a .22 fired from a 6" Ruger MkI at a distance of about 6" will not penetrate a coon's skull when shot at the flat spot above and between the eyes at a downward angle

After the animal was shot I did a quick amateur postmortem and was able to actually feel the bullet through the skin and massaged it back out through the entry hole

The skull was cracked into four pieces that moved around and the animal was definitely dead, or he was just being very cooperative to keep from getting shot again

Gun lover
July 24, 2007, 09:34 AM
My first firearm was a Marlin Model 60 .22LR and after all the Ballistic tests I did as a teen shooting at 2x4's and old water heaters and what ever other junk I could find I would have to say yes the .22LR can definitely go through human skull at close range.My cousin had to shoot a full grown pit bull a week ago that got ran over and was mangled beyond repair with a .22LR and it put him down with the first shot.

Double Naught Spy
July 24, 2007, 09:55 AM
I was amazed. The bone was shattered and "completely separated the distal end from the shaft" at only 51.1 ft-lbs! The photograph makes me queezy just looking at it.

Don't be mislead. Femur shafts can suffer greenstick (aka spiral) fractures quite easily with the correct force. This is due to the thick cortical bone and their tubular shape. Human skull bones are considered flat bone and do not have thick cortical bone and hence do not suffer the same greenstick or spiral fracture/shatter as you noted.

Mike128
July 24, 2007, 10:18 AM
I shot a large farm goose with a 22. I was about 20 yards away. First two shots were body shots and the thing was still alive and walking like nothing happened. This is a shot I have used to kill crows, rabbits, racoons, guines, ect. so I was puzzled. I decided to go with a head shot, which did the trick.

So I asked myself how the heck did I miss from 20 yards? I found that the two body shots bounced off a wing bone, tore the thin covering of skin off where the bullets hit. However, the bone was not broken. No bullets or bullet holes when I cleaned it.

On the other hand, a 22 will kill a goat and other similiar size animals when shot in the ear or near it. It's all about shot placement but you have smaller areas to place the shot with a 22 for it to do the job. After the episode with the goose I could see it easily bouncing off a human rib or skull.

SWMAN
July 24, 2007, 10:26 AM
A .22LR will penetrate a human's skull and kill.

shooter503
July 24, 2007, 10:50 AM
I've seen cows killed with a 22 pistol in the hands of an experienced operator. To my embarrasment (and grief) I've failed to kill a downed cow cleanly with several rounds of 38 special.

When the caliber is small it is a matter of skill and quite a bit of luck. Being able to pump out several rounds of 22 quickly without recoil effects helps too.

Tom Fury
July 24, 2007, 12:25 PM
"Ya don' kill a guy with a .45 'cause its' messy; and theres' dry cleaning involved; Ya shoot a guy with a .22 and it rattles around inside his skull for a while...no problem.
Or words to that effect...Steve Martin "My Blue Heaven."
I have no idea about the answer to your question, but thought the debate could use a little levity.
Cheers, TF

You're not really going down the road of trying to find the absolutely smallest round effective for SD are you?

Chrome
July 24, 2007, 12:46 PM
I don't want to get into the specifics, but I know for fact that at point blank range a .22LR out of a handgun will penetrate the front of the skull, but not the back. The bullet impacted the rear of the skull but did not penetrate.

Later,
Chrome...

Carl N. Brown
July 24, 2007, 01:13 PM
Depends on velocity of bullet,
thickness of bone,
angle of impact.

Quality of ammo, quality of barrel, and distance affect velocity.
Thickness of bone in one's skull varies depending on part of
skull; individuals may have thicker or thinner skulls than average.

.22 will more often than not penetrate the skull, traverse the brain
and impact the opposite side of the skull. Some times but not
often the .22 bullet will not penetrate: low velocity from weak
ammo or poor barrel, thickness of bone, angle of impact.

There have been rare cases where the .22 bullet has penetrated
the skull at an angle where it would follow the curve inside the
skull and end up where it entered.

And there is the urban legend that the .22 will not only penetrate
the skull but will bounce around turning the brain into mush.

GunTech
July 24, 2007, 01:36 PM
Given that the 22 is often the choice for government and non-government assassin, that should give you an idication. Of course the rule of thumb is 'get very close and use several shots'

We've always used 22 to kill animals prior to butchering. I'm not convinced a human skull is any thinker than a hogs or steers. Weapon in question was a S&W k-22 with a 6 inch barrel, fired at a couple of feet. Never need more than one shot.

mshiermd
July 24, 2007, 02:06 PM
Having seen first hand several thousand GSWs to bone (major inner city hospital) let me offer some insight into 22LR properties. The ability of all projectiles to penetrate bone is related to the energy that can be transmitted to the bone. This is dependent on the angle at which the missile strikes the bone. The more acute the angle, the less likely to penetrate.

As someone has indicated the skull is a flat bone with a relatively thin cortex on either side of cancellous bone. It is like corrugated cardboard in structure. Long bones on the other hand are generally tubular in structure with a much thicker cortex (hard bone). Most of you will recognize the bone in a round steak; this is a cortical bone. Fractures can be of many types:

1) transverse- straight across the long axis of the bone
2) oblique- at an angle to the long axis of the bone
3) spiral- a twisting propagation of the fracture as it progresses up or down the axis
4) open- communicating with the outside
5) comminuted- multiple fragments
6) greenstick- cortex broken on one side and relatively intact on the other side

Now to the original question. Yes indeed, the 22LR can penetrate the skull of a human. It depends on the angle at which it strikes. At 90 degrees it is more likely to penetrate. The more energy (>ft/lbs) related to a missile the more likely penetration will occur at an angle.

The bone in the skull that is struck will have an effect. The parietal and frontal bones will have more resistance to penetration than the temporal (just above the ear) bone.

Just in the way of a "war story", I had an individual arrive at the emergency room with a GSW to the forehead and an exit wound at the back of his head. He was conversing normally and was lucid. An xray revealed a lead track beneath the galea (the thick covering over the skull; scalp) following the contour of the skull. Not a wholely unusual event.

bdjansen
July 24, 2007, 02:11 PM
Tom Fury, this is not a thread about SD weapons. See origional post. Anything a 22 does, a larger/hotter caliber just does more. They even used a larger caliber in that study (.40 inch) with the obvious effect.

I'm just currious that there would so many different opionions about what a 22 will do.

The skull is not thicker then the femur. The curves are much less on the skull then on a femur. It would clearly be far easer for a 22 to pass through a skull then a femur bone. Anyway you look at it.

Also, different people's bones are different strengths and sizes but in this study it made no difference.

What amazed me was how little energy it required to break the bone. People who have have stories about a 22 not doing it's job on an animal should maybe be thinking about why it didn't work. There are always more factors in play in the real world then a controlled lab but the energy is not at question.

I will try and post those pdf's to this reply.

Ron James
July 24, 2007, 02:13 PM
Have you ever seen a full grown bull put down with a single .22 in the head, I have, and on the farm we used .22 shorts because they were cheaper! I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or start a flame war but any who states that a .22 Long rifle will not penetrate a human skull needs to start back on their meds.:rolleyes:

bdjansen
July 24, 2007, 02:13 PM
Here is the other one.

Let me know what you guys think.

magsnubby
July 24, 2007, 06:48 PM
I've had three relatives die due to .22 gun shot wounds. My uncle committed suicide with a Colt Woodsman. A cousin committed suicide with a .22 rifle. In both cases it was one shot to the head. My nephew was murdered by a lunitic with a .22 derringer. He was shot once in the left eye. All three died instantally. So yes, a .22 will penetrate the human skull.

jad0110
July 24, 2007, 09:18 PM
As another poster stated, it depends on the angle. Their was a suicide attempt in eastern NC many years ago. Guy shot himself in the head with a 357 Magnum ... it did NOT penetrate.

So the answer is: it is possible, but not an "always" thing.

LightningJoe
July 24, 2007, 09:39 PM
John Hinkley caused some serious mayhem with a .22 LR revolver. He didn't use the best ammo, but yes he inflicted a serious head injury on Jim Brady. If you don't like the Brady Bunch, Hinkley gets part of the blame.

Sistema1927
July 24, 2007, 10:13 PM
"Ya don' kill a guy with a .45 'cause its' messy; and theres' dry cleaning involved; Ya shoot a guy with a .22 and it rattles around inside his skull for a while...no problem.
Or words to that effect...Steve Martin "My Blue Heaven."

Strangely, it is just the reverse.

I personally witnessed a suicide with a .22 where the head wound pumped blood all over the motel room, soaking the bed, the carpet, the walls, etc. The bullet did not exit the far side of the skull, but the mess and gore was extreme. I bet that they ended up replacing the carpet, bed, and all bedding.

I witnessed another suicide with a .45 ACP where the bullet cleanly penetrated both sides of the skull, took almost no brain matter with it, and then went through a motel wall ending up on the carpet of the adjoining room after bouncing off of the dresser. Other than the fact that she was slumped over in a sitting position on the bed with the Glock rotated around her trigger finger and pointing towards the door (:eek:) the only mess other than the clean bullet hole in the wall was a tiny puddle of blood on her forearm. A little bit of spackle was all that was needed to put the room back in order, no dry cleaning involved.

TimboKhan
July 25, 2007, 03:51 AM
Have you ever seen a full grown bull put down with a single .22 in the head,

I have seen it, and done it, many times.

I don't want to get into the specifics, but I know for fact that at point blank range a .22LR out of a handgun will penetrate the front of the skull, but not the back. The bullet impacted the rear of the skull but did not penetrate

Creepy.

Anyway, I think what it probably boils down to is velocity, bullet-type and angle. I have no doubt that a .22 with a copper coat on it will go through a skull with a full frontal shot at close range. Like I said, I have shot many bulls in just such a manner over the years, and my failure rate was exactly zero. I do not think it will go through a skull every time, and I am not advocating the .22 as a defense round (which, if your intersted in, has been talked about quite thouroughly on this board). I am simple saying that it is possible.

doc2rn
July 25, 2007, 01:39 PM
Different parts of the skull have different thickness, but every bone in the human body can be broken with only 18 lbs/sq inch of pressure properly applied. This includes the skull.

JRC45AUTO
July 25, 2007, 04:15 PM
Well I can tell you from experience, my own.
The first deer I killed was with a nylon66 with plane old winchester solids at 75yds.
One shot between the eyes dropped it like a sack of bricks.
My buddy looked at me wide eyed and was speachless.
The deer never moved, twiched, or anything.

So regardless of the "opinions" of all the "experts" I can tell you a 22 in the forehead will most definitely put your lights out. Why do you think the hitmen use a 22. They are cheap and work good for close head shots.

PS. I also worked as an attendent on a ambulance and saw 7 cases where a 22 killed, some were multiple shots some were 1 shot.

The Lone Haranguer
July 25, 2007, 04:19 PM
It would - and has - as long as the skull is hit squarely (or it can actually skid around under the skin and/or bounce off) and at close enough range. Ask any hit man. :evil:

Odd Job
July 25, 2007, 04:52 PM
@ DNS

Femur shafts can suffer greenstick (aka spiral) fractures quite easily with the correct force.

Not to nitpick, but I feel you are a poster who has good information generally and this one needs to be rejigged.
A spiral fracture is not associated with or synonymous with a greenstick fracture. A greenstick fracture is an incomplete fracture of a paediatric bone. The reason it has that appearance is because of the difference in mineralisation between a kid's bones and an adult's. The kid's bones will have more 'give' and may bend on one side and suffer a compression deformity (or partial fracture) on the other. A spiral fracture is a complete 'break' through the bone but it has a significant extent on the long axis of the bone. The greenstick involves a narrower area (on the long axis of the bone).

@ All

As regards bones and gunshots:

1) A round with a low mass and velocity is more prone to deflection and failure to fracture a bone, all other things being equal.
2) The skull is a very complex target, primarily because of the bones of the face. These are complex both in terms of density and arrangement. These variables (even if you pretend to have multiple identical skulls) mean that deflections and failures to penetrate are not surprising with any service calibre load.
3) As DNS said, you get variation in terms of mineralisation, bone thickness, underlying metabolic disorders and overlying tissue variables. These all add up. If you have a look at a few CT scans through the same anatomical baseline on multiple patients, you will get variations that are easily appreciated.
4) The .22 is at a disadvantage in terms of mass and also its ability to retain mass (in other words it is prone to fragmentation because it has no jacket and is made from soft lead).

Here is some more for you to chew on:

If you guys have a serious interest in gunshot wounds you should read Vincent J.M. Di Maio's book 'Gunshot Wounds.'

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/084...lance&n=283155

In Di Maio's book, Chapter 9 deals with 'Bloody Bodies and Bloody Scenes.'
Di Maio noted that of 185 cases of suicide by .22, only 20% of those bullets exited. Of 60 cases of homicide by .22 only 6.6% exited. These figures are from gunshot heads only. He further adds: "...of the bullets that do not exit the head, the vast majority are retained in the cranial cavity. Thus, internal ricochet is fairly common, occurring in anywhere from 10 to 15% of the cases..." (See page 264 and 265)

Also, you can give Malcolm Dodd's book 'Terminal Ballistics' a read:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/084...lance&n=283155

In Dodd's book, Chapter 8 deals with the 'Rimfire .22 Projectile.'
Dodd acknowledges that "...the .22 short and LR rounds also have the reputation of internal ricochet within the cranium, further creating complex injury patterns..." (See page 41)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen one or two gunshot wounds and I can tell you that even small projectiles can fracture heavy bone. In one case a .25ACP broke a guy's thumb and his femur. That's not bad for a mousegun. in another case a larger projectile (somewhere around .357) pancaked and deflected off a femur. Of course there are variables to do with clothing and range and the type of projectile, but the bottom line is that you can expect the unexpected.

Having said that, I would say that a .22 is low on my list of projectiles I would choose to penetrate heads. There are too many variables however, to dismiss it outright as not capable of doing it.

The Lone Haranguer
July 25, 2007, 06:57 PM
It not only must penetrate, but hit the right part of the brain to cause an instant "lights-out." Passing through the bone and/or whatever intervening membranes or fluids are there can deflect it.

:uhoh:

CWL
July 25, 2007, 09:08 PM
The Israeli Massad used to issue their agents Beretta .22s as their primary carry weapon. It was also the caliber used by the Massad when they took out some of the terrorist responsible for the 1972 Olympic murders.

FYI, the terrorists were mostly killed with bombs. Of the three that were shot, 2 were each shot 12 times before they died; and the planner of the attack was shot 17 times but still survived. The .22 was issued because Isreali Agents needed something very easily hidden, not because they believed in the bullet caliber.

Man With A Gun
July 25, 2007, 09:19 PM
Mass-ad uses another agency called Kidron to do their wet work and they use .22 auto pistols for up close and personal work.

At four feet, any .22 round, even sub sonic rounds, will enter a skull but will just rattle around and make a mess.

The movie MUNIC may not have been dead on the facts, I am told, but, dead is dead and they all caught a bad case of dead.

MESSAGE: Kill an Israeli and they'll kill you right back.

jad0110
July 25, 2007, 09:42 PM
"Ya don' kill a guy with a .45 'cause its' messy; and theres' dry cleaning involved; Ya shoot a guy with a .22 and it rattles around inside his skull for a while...no problem.
Or words to that effect...Steve Martin "My Blue Heaven."
I have no idea about the answer to your question, but thought the debate could use a little levity.

Here's the exact quote:

Vincent 'Vinnie' Antonelli: "Richie loved to use 22s because the bullets are small and they don't come out the other end like a 45, see, a 45 will blow a barn door out the back of your head and there's a lot of dry cleaning involved, but a 22 will just rattle around like Pac-Man until you're dead." :D

GaryArkansas
July 25, 2007, 10:07 PM
John Hinckley shot at President Reagan, SS agents James Delahanty and Timothy McCarthy and Press Secretary James Brady with a Rhm RG-14, which is a .22 LR revolver. Seems to have created a lot of mischief, including a penetrating head wound to Brady.

Maj.Striker
July 26, 2007, 02:20 PM
I believe a .22 LR will penetrate a human skull from a close distance...as to how close that distance needs to be I would imagine it would depend greatly on the load of the bullet. I'm interested in this subject because if you've seen the movie "Shooter", there's a scene where Mark Wahlberg shoots two BGs from (I'm guessing) 150-200 yards with a .22LR rifle. I don't know, but I can't imagine that it would penetrate the skull from that distance but then again I could be wrong...it certainly would hurt like heck. :)

svtruth
July 26, 2007, 02:32 PM
two cents worth.
Kitty Genovese had a .22 slug in her head. The coroner initially thought the wound was from an ice pick.
High Standard made suppressed .22 pistols for the OSS. I'm betting they didn't use them for interagency shooting matches.

CZF
July 26, 2007, 03:34 PM
If you watch Court TV. You will see how popular the .22 is among criminals.
Scores of people have turned up plenty Dead from the .22.

MontanaBighorn
July 26, 2007, 06:32 PM
As an aside, in the video Deadly Effects: Wound Ballistics, they discuss a BG that was hit 49 times with assorted LEO 9mm rounds and continued to function until taken out by a shotgun slug. Placement is alot. They also show some dead guys with single .22LR wounds.

this originated in "street survival" by caliber press which is a police training manual. the bad guy was on meth and he was shot 33 times with 9mm (including many head shots!) and he continued to fight. he was shot from 20 feet away with a 12ga. slug and he continued to fight. it was the second slug that took him down.

i have a picture of the corpse from "street survival" but its morbid. if you wish to see it, CLICK HERE (http://concealedcarryforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=61) and pan about 1/3 to 1/2 way down the page.

McCall911
July 26, 2007, 06:48 PM
22lr enough to go through human bone/skull?

My semi-educated guess is yes. But you know what they say about a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. :)

Based on the little Newton-based formula that I sometimes use, the two factors which limit penetration are the density and the tensile strength of whatever is being shot.

This in mind, my formula says that the average .22 LR (30 grains at about 1260 fps) will penetrate 0.97 inch of bone. Compare this to the .45 ACP (230 grain at 850 fps) penetrating 0.94 inch of bone. (Or, roughly the same.) On the other hand, a typical .25 ACP (45 grain at 760fps) only does about 0.49 inch in bone. (All this probably assumes a certain amount of expansion of the bullet also.)

So I'd say that potentially the .22 lr seems to be able to penetrate skull bone.

zinj
July 26, 2007, 08:28 PM
As said before, pretty much any cartridge can penetrate any bone in the human body. Rather, bullets (especially the short, round nosed ones used for pistols) can get deflected hitting a hard surface at an angle (the same effect that causes ricochets).

I read an account of a Holocaust survivor who, faking death after being lined up with other Jews and shot by rifles, was shot with a 9x19 in the head and survived because the bullet deflected.

Rodman579
July 27, 2007, 05:56 PM
i have had to put down several animals in my lifetime and i prefer the .22lr. the reason for that is i have had the quickest response with it. i have had to put down animals as small as a squirrel to that largest being horses and cattle. everytime its been one shot to the brain and it was done/over. i have used a 38 special, 9mm and 45acp with not the same results. which i might add was not a very good experience. the last time i had to put an animal down was a 300+ pound wild hog i opted for my 357 magnum (2" 686), mainly because i heard they are hard to kill and have thicked skulls which i am not sure is true or not but one shot to the head with a hard cast 158 grain slug dropped him instantly. in my experience the 22lr works.

Zwetschgen
July 30, 2007, 07:59 PM
<<this originated in "street survival" by caliber press which is a police training manual. the bad guy was on meth and he was shot 33 times with 9mm (including many head shots!) and he continued to fight. he was shot from 20 feet away with a 12ga. slug and he continued to fight. it was the second slug that took him down.>>

Off topic, but shooting a man with a 12 gauge slug at 20 feet is just about the same as shooting him with a high powered rifle. The round will, and probably did, pass right through him, which would cause a good clean hole. Now, a better suggested idea would have been to shoot 00 buck in the first place. Let's say three standard 00 buck shells were fired at him from 20 feet. All pellets would hit, so 9 pellets at .33 caliber multiplied by 3 = 27 hits. In addition to these multiple hits are moving much slower than a handgun, therefor have much more "knock down" power. It seems ridiculus that any police officer or group of officers would shoot any man 33 times. Though there is much talk about a "one stop shot round" typically this is concerned with bullets, and I am not a professional, but almost anyone being shot with large size buckshot is not going to remain standing after the second shot garenteed. He may be on drugs and may not feel the pain, or his blood might be constricted, I imagine getting hit with buck shot is nothing less than the force of a professional baseball player batting you in the chest.

I wasn't there, but I bet it could have been handled better...

Technosavant
July 30, 2007, 08:13 PM
Not all bone is alike, and even the bone that makes up the skull itself differs from place to place. It is very thin at the temples, but is rather thicker at the forehead. Cheekbones can cause bullets to do odd things too.

Can it penetrate the skull? Sure. No doubt about it.
Will it penetrate the skull? Depends on the angle of the shot, range of the shot, and part of the skull. You will be able to find times when it goes in and comes out the other side as well as times when it deflected off and the person went home with nothing more than a Band-Aid and a couple aspirin.

The human body is a marvelous, if not homogeneous, thing. Don't think that what happens in one incident is what will happen in another; even one variable is enough to change the outcome from somebody being DRT (dead right there) to it barely even qualifying as a flesh wound.

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