What can you get with a C&R license?


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kellyj00
July 24, 2007, 01:02 PM
I've just browsed the ATF's list of curios and relics...
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/sec2.htm

I don't see anything that cool, or much that I actually recognize.

Is there anything that I'm missing that would justify sending in the paperwork and the application fee for a c&r?

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BothellBob
July 24, 2007, 01:28 PM
I don't see anything that cool, or much that I actually recognize. Is there anything that I'm missing...

:neener:<snotty mode on> Perhaps taste? Class? An aesthetic sense? Maturity? <snotty mode off>:evil:
To each his own. Some of us think wood and blued steel is "cool". I confess to owning a number of guns that are not C&R, but most of those are antiques. My modern guns I could count on one hand.
So, :D when you say that, Pardner!
-BothellBob

kellyj00
July 24, 2007, 01:35 PM
well, I did see the SKS made the list. There was nothing else in the list that looked like I could actually find one.

I'm not a collector, I'm a shooter.

jdm1986
July 24, 2007, 01:39 PM
I'm not a collector, I'm a shooter.

I'm both. A novice at both. I have been bitten by the "history" bug - it's never interested me until I picked up a Mosin and some surplus ammo. Not the most noteworthy collector's item by far, but it makes you think. When i got my SKS a while back, I didn't get the bite. I am in the process of getting a C&R now (application being mailed my way). I don't know how difficult it is to get one, but for $30, I'm gonna try.

The Viking
July 24, 2007, 01:40 PM
You can shoot them as well as collecting them! :)
I would be dancing with joy if I could have something similar to a C&R license only. Garands, M1 Carbines, old .357 revolvers, 1911's, Hi-Powers, SKS's, AG42 etc. Not the most modern stuff, I know, but enough to have some fun with :)

CDignition
July 24, 2007, 02:18 PM
The Best thing is dealer pricing at Brownells and Midway, and a few other places...;)

cane
July 24, 2007, 02:24 PM
Remember any firearm over 50 yrs old qualifies as a C&R even if it isn't on the "list".

Neo-Luddite
July 24, 2007, 02:38 PM
I don't see anything that cool

You're right--that old junk--who needs it!


(For the small hastle and $30.00, get the C/R--it will allow you many smaller fringe bennefits in many places (dealer pricing, FFL status for shipping FedEx, exemptions to some state and local laws depending on where you live, and cool goodies via interstate commerce).

LotI
July 24, 2007, 02:51 PM
You're best off leaving all that old junk for us, then.

The Best thing is dealer pricing at Brownells and Midway, and a few other places

Shhh. That's the best secret. But, I guess we can share since we're among friends at the high road. Don't forget Grafs.

I have saved hundreds of $$ on ammo, bullets, brass, optics, parts, magazines, and accessories for all of my guns because of the discounts extended to Crufflers. But I've spent thousands :scrutiny:

I would have never had the joy of finding a Swiss K31 made in 1940 with a walnut stock, or another made in '48 that will drive tacks with "surplus" ammo. Each one of these rifles cost $80. I wouldn't have the fun firing 50 year old 7.62X54R ammo for $.10/round from a $70 carbine and seeing the fireball around sundown.

AugustusMcCrae
July 24, 2007, 02:58 PM
FFL status for shipping FedEx


Does that mean that if I get a C&R license, I can buy firearms over the internet & have them send straight to me without using a FFL?:confused:

If yes, I just might get me one. I'm talking about guns that aren't all over 50 years old. Like AK's or shotguns.

.cheese.
July 24, 2007, 03:04 PM
Smith & Wesson, 1st model, Ladysmith revolver, cal. .22 rimfire long.

I'm confused. I thought to be C&R they had to have no currently produced ammo available?

Neo-Luddite
July 24, 2007, 03:05 PM
NO, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT.

It does mean, that when you plunk your FFL copy on the counter, the hastle factor for shipping the gun via FedEx/UPS disappears.

Spend the 30 bucks and take the chance that you'll at least make back that much in discounts and reduced hastles over the next three years.

.cheese.--NOPE--there are MANY credible and fully functional C/R guns shooting all calibers under the sun.

kellyj00
July 24, 2007, 04:07 PM
what i really want to know is what would your average lame brain (me) buy with a c&r license?

I'm trying to get excited enough about it to actually do it. Any rifle for $70 is a pretty sweet deal. I heard 1911's mentioned....does anyone know where I can find a 50 year old 1911?

Where do you C&R holders shop?

Lone_Gunman
July 24, 2007, 04:14 PM
Anything over 50 yrs old is automatically C&R, and you can buy them and have them shipped directly to you. That means anything made before 1957 is automatically a C&R.

M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, M1917 rifles, M1903 rifles, WWII era 1911s, etc, are all examples of C&R guns.

If you don't want any of those, there is something wrong with you.

Check out Simpsonltd.com for a lot of C&R guns. But remember WWII 1911s will cost you at least $1500 and more likely $2000.

Neo-Luddite
July 24, 2007, 04:24 PM
Look--when the deal comes up--you'll have the C/R ready if you get one.
Check out the gun auction sites--many C/R's for sale---and many that COULD be C/R because of their age and just aren't noted as such.

Lots of low cost eastern block stuff around--some post-war p-38's and hi-powers qualify.

No, you can't get a glock or a kahr with it. But the deals on shipping and ammo (dealer pricing) will make it worth your while. And it's suitable for framing!

kellyj00
July 24, 2007, 04:31 PM
"M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, M1917 rifles, M1903 rifles, WWII era 1911s, etc, are all examples of C&R guns.
If you don't want any of those, there is something wrong with you."

I want all of those! Didn't see them in the atf's list though.
The only real issue is an obvious one... the price is gonna be more than a brand new armalite AR15 rifle. I may as well just go down to the gun shop and pick up a Savage .308 as an m1 Garand...though the m1 Garand has a cool nostalgia factor, I really don't think I'm going to find one for cheaper than the $500 that Savage costs.

MRIman
July 24, 2007, 04:38 PM
Let's see,
Krags,Nagants,K31's,SKS's,LOTS of Mausers,Makrovs,CZ-52's,.....
That was the 2 second post.

MRI

The Viking
July 24, 2007, 04:41 PM
Are C&R excempted from being short barrelled rifles? (I'm thinking of Broomhandle Mausers with the stock attached, and Hi-Powers that also have a stock...)
Could a shotgun be excempted from being a SBS?

KaiserBen
July 24, 2007, 04:47 PM
The C96 and Inglis Hi-Power are specifically exempted from the NFA. There are many C&R firearms exempt from the NFA (mostly SBRs).

rritter
July 24, 2007, 05:02 PM
With a C&R, you get to pick from two different but overlapping lists of firearms. Any one produced more than 50 years ago but not old enough to qualify as an antique can be shipped directly to your door, or any one on the specific lists put out by the ATF even if it's younger than 50 years old. So the list is only a starting point - there are hundreds more firearms that qualify as C&R.

The rule does generate some silliness. You can buy a Colt 1911 built in 1955 and have it shipped directly to you, but if you buy an identical 1911 built in 1958 it has to go through a dealer. The good news is that the time cutoff moves, so new guns become eligible every year (unlike with antiques which are forever trapped at 1898).

I believe NFA items on the C&R list are still NFA items, but if they're C&R NFA items you can get them shipped to you directly after you comply with the NFA regulations (transfer tax, etc.), rather than having to have them shipped to an NFA dealer first.

strat81
July 24, 2007, 05:36 PM
Try www.aimsurplus.com for a C&R primer.

There's some great bolt-action rifles you can get that will be great for hunting and target shooting. SKSes are great for blasting and SHTF. There's also the CZ-82 which would make a great HD/SD/CCW gun.

The Midway discount rocks too. My first big order from Midway paid for the C&R. Everything else is gravy.

On my list: Mosin Nagant M44, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, 1903 Springfield, German K98 Mauser, Swiss K31, SKS, and CZ-82.

Sistema1927
July 24, 2007, 06:12 PM
What can you get with a C&R?









Debt.

gunsmith
July 24, 2007, 06:21 PM
your right! :neener::evil:

iamkris
July 24, 2007, 06:22 PM
I don't see anything that cool,

Huh? How are

Garands
Springfield
Krags
1911s
Mausers
MAS
P38s
FNs
Steyrs
Mosin Nagants
Enfield
Lugers
Ariskas
Henry's
Makarovs
SKSs
K31s
Winchesters
FN49s
Carcanos
Mannlichers
Martini's
Colt's
etc, etc, etc

that you can have delivered straight to your door not frickin' COOL? You can have all your tacticool stuff...(well, actually you can't...I like those too) but for coolness, you can't beat the ancestors of combat tupperware.

Hoffy
July 24, 2007, 07:09 PM
1) East German Makarov
2) 1903 Colt
3) CZ 82

Notch
July 24, 2007, 07:22 PM
If you can honestly pick up a Garrand, K31, FR8 or any of the dozens of other CnR long guns and handguns and not get revved by them... Well somethin aint right... Oh.. Here are two of my CnRs that it sounds like ya have no interest in...
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/Notch_2003/AR18_folded.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/Notch_2003/AR18FULLY.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/Notch_2003/reis_full.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/Notch_2003/reis_FUN.jpg

The Viking
July 24, 2007, 07:42 PM
Notch: What is that second gun you got there?

hoglaw
July 24, 2007, 07:44 PM
Here's an important question regarding a C&R license: does it qualify you for attendance at the SHOT show?

iamkris
July 24, 2007, 07:48 PM
Notch: What is that second gun you got there?

That would be a M50 Reising Submachine gun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reising

.cheese.
July 24, 2007, 07:48 PM
.cheese.--NOPE--there are MANY credible and fully functional C/R guns shooting all calibers under the sun.

hmmm.... I wonder where I got that idea. Maybe I'm thinking of the definition of Antique under Florida law? I'm not sure.

In any case, maybe it would be worth it to get a C&R afterall.

so here's a question.... when purchasing a C&R automatic - NFA rules still apply right? Still the $200 tax stamp and all I assume?

iamkris
July 24, 2007, 07:50 PM
Just remember guys...if you can't play it on Counterstrike or Halo, it ain't cool...





...not

Neo-Luddite
July 24, 2007, 07:56 PM
Yes, all NFA rules are still there--but a c/r also an NFA item can go right to your door with a c/r type 3. Some localities will treat these differently.

joe4702
July 24, 2007, 09:43 PM
I just ordered a Garand using my C&R. The cost savings vs. having to go through an 01 FFL paid for the C&R for 10 years. Now that you can email a copy of your FFL, its even easier to use it.

john1911
July 24, 2007, 09:53 PM
What can you get with a C&R license?

A melted credit card and trouble at home. :neener: :what: :cool: :D

22-rimfire
July 25, 2007, 07:28 AM
Do remember that the C&R license is intended for personal collecting. It is not a license to conduct retail firearm sales. You have to maintain your records just like a regular FFL and your records (and guns) are subject to inspection by the ATF at their convenience.

Unless you purchase a lot of older guns, the C&R license is a hassle. I want no part of the hassle for the few firearms I purchase yearly.

Will5A1
July 25, 2007, 07:53 AM
The C&R FFL is for collecting, and you do have to maintain a bound book of C&R transactions, but my reading, and understanding, is that the ATF can audit me, but at my convenience, not theirs, and I have the option of scheduling the audit/interview/meeting at their office rather than my premises.

kellyj00
July 25, 2007, 09:19 AM
how does it work if a C&R holder buys a few guns and needs to sell them to make back some money in times of hardship?

Sounds like a real PITA. I would like to clarify that I didn't see anything cool on the ATF's list, but it's so detailed (you can have a czechoslavokian c425632 serial numbers 345 - 6783z with stock, but not with detachable magazine) made that up, but you get the idea. It's a big old list, figured you fellas would know what on there there were only 5 built of, and what on there was readily available for cheap (i.e. this Mosin Nagant thing I don't know about).

Neo-Luddite
July 25, 2007, 10:38 AM
NOTHING prevents a C/R FFL 3 from selling off items of their personal collection just like a private firearm sale by any citizen--the only difference is that you log the C/R guns in and them out of your log if you sell one and record who it went to.

That's it--no eggshells to walk on.

The trouble starts when some yo-yo gets a C/R and buys CASES of SKS's and such and procedes to SELL them for profit on a regular basis---starts running a business. If the ATF were to find this out, the hammer rightfully falls.

Kellyj00--hey, don't get one then. I think it's BS that any citizen would need one, but it essentially restores for a fee some of the rights lost under the GCA of 1968--mostly buying and selling over the counter and through mail order. Like I said, if you get one and wait--new old stuff comes on the market all the time--police trade ins, etc.

KaiserBen
July 25, 2007, 10:39 AM
If you sell some of your guns, you just log them out of your bound book to the person that you sold them to. As long as you're not dealing in firearms, it's not an issue. As for what's on the list, the list only covers things that aren't 50 years old, but are still C&R, thus the restrictions as to serial #s and features.

sarge83
July 25, 2007, 11:06 AM
I didn't notice the Norinco SKS's on the ATF sight. Are these treated different from the Yugo's for some reason?

Neo-Luddite
July 25, 2007, 11:26 AM
Yes--the norinco's aren't old enough. The Yugo's are a deal for the money--hampered mostly by some lack of spare parts--but that problem is getting better. Some other SKS's are surely C/R--but just more rare (ie. Russian).

The only thing I've bought with my C/R has been a couple of those--and I saved more than the 30 bucks spent just on that purchase.

O.S.O.K.
July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
As stated: The C&R qualifies you to directly purchase 50+ year old firearms and also "commemorative" guns -that could be as new as yesterday. You need to log all purchases and sales in a bound book using the approved format. You can not use this to buy and sell to make a profit - that is as a business. The purpose is to facilitate your collecting activity.

Here are some examples of C&R qualified firearms:

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/20500Colt_1917_right.jpg
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/20500Image002.jpg
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/20500Jungle_Essentials.jpg
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/20500Makrov_right_side.jpg
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/medium/HPIM0210.JPG
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/medium/HPIM0111.JPG
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/medium/HPIM0081.JPG
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/HPIM0058.JPG
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/HPIM0227.JPG

As you can see, nothing "cool". And there is current production ammo available for all of these firearms - not to mention inexpensive milsurp ammo for many of them.

So, why would anyone want to spend the princely sum of $30 to get a C&R license? :eek:

kellyj00
July 26, 2007, 05:37 PM
this is nice and all...but the only one I recognize is the 1911.
I guess I'm just not knowledgable enough to buy anything with a C&R.

jkingrph
July 26, 2007, 05:38 PM
I just ordered some after market levers to replace the square levers on some Marlins. The savings on each leaver was more than $30, the cost of the C&R license. Many suppliers will give you dealer prices for submitting a copy of yours C&R license.

Lone_Gunman
July 26, 2007, 05:41 PM
this is nice and all...but the only one I recognize is the 1911.
I guess I'm just not knowledgable enough to buy anything with a C&R.


In the photos you are referring to, there is no 1911 pictured. The thing you think is a 1911 is actually a Star, which is not a 1911.

I agree that you right now, you might be better off without a C&R.

Bruce333
July 26, 2007, 05:48 PM
Here's an important question regarding a C&R license: does it qualify you for attendance at the SHOT show?Yes, it does.

kellyj00
July 26, 2007, 06:06 PM
"I agree that you right now, you might be better off without a C&R"
thanks buddy. I may just get one to spite you.
Do you have one? Or do you just tell people that they don't deserve one because you don't have one either.

Lone_Gunman
July 26, 2007, 06:21 PM
Sorry if you thought I was being a smart ass. I really didnt mean for it to come across that way. But I just don't know how much benefit/enjoyment you will get out a C&R license if you don't already know what guns would qualify, and what guns wouldn't.

I didnt mean to insult your intelligence, but if you can't tell a Star from a 1911, I have to wonder whether or not you have enough knowledge about C&R guns to really enjoy having it. I don't mean that in a derogatory fashion, but you yourself said you couldnt identify any of the guns pictured. If you can't at least identify a gun, then there is no way you could have an interest in having one. I think I can identify all of them, except that bolt action that is next to the last.
That doesn't make me better than you, just a little more knowledgeable about C&R guns. I collected guns for many years, read about guns for many years, and talked to a lot of other collectors before I got a C&R. Its not a badge of accomplishment. Anyone can get one, and it doesn't make you less special if you don't have one. All I am saying is if you have to ask what you can get with one, you probably don't need one.

iamkris
July 26, 2007, 06:57 PM
this is nice and all...but the only one I recognize is the 1911.
I guess I'm just not knowledgable enough to buy anything with a C&R.

Zoiks!!!! Now I see why you didn't see anything "cool". (your definition and mine must be different :)) Funny sometimes when you think what you know is commonplace...I would figure the majority of those are pretty well known even if you really aren't into milsurps.

For reference, that's a


M1917 .45 ACP
Enfield No 1 Mk III .303 British
Enfield No 5 "Jungle Carbine" .303 British
Makarov 9x18mm
Yugo and Chinese SKS, 7.62x39mm
Next one is outside of my knowledge base...Iver Johnson top break?
Star BM 9x19mm
Next one...maybe one of the Romanian .22 LR trainers?
Mauser 98k, 7.92x57mm


A C&R is a gateway to a lot of fun history. There's more to knowing about guns than ARs, AKs, 870s and Remmy 700s (although I like those too!)

offthepaper
July 26, 2007, 08:14 PM
I think I can identify all of them, except that bolt action that is next to the last.

--------------------------------------------------

iamkris:
Looks like a Romanian 22 Trainer to me also.
I always wanted one of them, maybe time to warm up the CC and dust off the C&R. :D

O.S.O.K.
July 26, 2007, 08:19 PM
Pretty good Kris - the second one is an Ishipure No.1 Mk3 (that's the way its marked -not an error) but that would be hard to tell from that pic. The SKS's are Albainian, Romainian and 59 Yugoslavian. The top break is a Smith & Wesson "Lemon Squeezer" .38 S&W. The Romanian trainer .22 is a model 69. That m69 is a tack driver too - shoots great.

And the thing about getting a C&R is that you have motivation to learn about these kinds of firearms - I find them very interesting.

And Kelly, if you like more "sexy", say semi-auto rifles, then you can focus on that kind of rifle - like maybe a MAS 49-56, which is a very cool rifle. Or maybe you would like that 1911 - they are very expensive but you can get a Brazilian model 1927 which is an exact copy for a fraction of the cost of an old 1911. Or how about a German Luger - you know what that is right?

And yes, you do get FFL discounts from many wholesalers and such and they also can gain you entrance to shows... yep.

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