Why so much disdain for youths on this forum?


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hornadylnl
July 24, 2007, 04:38 PM
There was a blantant disdain and distrust for the 19 year old carrying the ak in the thread about him. Many posters automatically assumed because of his age that he was up to no good.

Then there was this gem in another thread.
"1. The staff seemed very young. They were knowledgable and ran everything safely but they I do not think that any of them could be much older than 21 if that." http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=287598

Is it right to assume that because someone is young that they can't possibly be proficient and knowledgeable in the use of firearms? It is like saying this - Some young people are irresponsible. Some young people own guns. All young gunowners are irresponsible.

I'm 30 years old and spent 3 years in active duty Army infantry. I trained on the M16, Saw, M203, M60 and various other weapons systems. I spent another 4 years in the National Guard infantry. I've fired on many ranges and know how to competently run one. I've been married to an M16 for a 6 month deployment. To assume that I'm incompetent because of my age really irks me.

You have many older people who do nothing but complain about how the youth have no respect for their elders. If they did something beside denigrate them, maybe they would earn the respect of the youth. You have to give respect to get it.

Numbers of days lived on this earth doesn't equate to wisdom. Age helps but isn't the be all end all.

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igpoobah
July 24, 2007, 04:44 PM
Some 19 y.o. 'youts':) will have the maturity to handle firearms, I would say most would not.

The problem with being a responsible 'yout' is that people treat you like you are irresponsible until you prove otherwise. :rolleyes:

I went through this as well. Am I more mature and responsible now than I was then? Of course.

RNB65
July 24, 2007, 04:52 PM
Disdain for yutes? We don't got no sorry disdain for yutes!

:D

ArmedBear
July 24, 2007, 04:54 PM
I'm 30 years old

Wait 10 MORE years and you'll know.:evil:

Seriously, I didn't find that post to be full of disdain. It was descriptive.

If I go to the range and there's nobody there over 21, I expect certain things. They'll ask for my current Safety Card, which no member actually carries, even if they know me by name and my card is a quarter mile away, locked in a car because I'm shooting my shotgun on the other side of the range before sighting in a rifle. They'll ask for my membership card, which nobody carries, even though my name and membership status is on the computer terminal right in front of them and I hand them a credit card and ID with my name on them. (BTW I just did a search and I am the only person in the USA with my name.)

If I go to the range and there's nobody there under 65, I expect certain things. They'll sneer at me in a curmudgeonly way, but it means I remind them of their sons. They'll complain about rapid firing from a bolt action. They'll be full of advice, some of which will reall raise and some of which will dramatically lower my trap score, and it's my problem to discern which.

I feel no "disdain" for either young or old. But if I go to a range, I don't mind knowing what to expect when I get there. It helps me to enjoy myself more.

hornadylnl
July 24, 2007, 04:59 PM
igpoohbah -"Some 19 y.o. 'youts' will have the maturity to handle firearms, I would say most would not.

The problem with being a responsible 'yout' is that people treat you like you are irresponsible until you prove otherwise."

A 40 year old guy sits down at the bench next to you at the range with an ak. For all you know, he has never even fired a gun and he just bought it at the gunshop on the way to the range. You wouldn't make the same assumption about him that you would the 19 year old. Don't you have children? Did they live in a vacuum in your home in regards to guns and safe handling practices or did you teach them how to shoot and how to handle them safely?

I grew up with guns and did a lot of shooting. I got a Remington 1187 for Christmas when I was 13. Your assumption of my knowledge because of my age would make you look ignorant.

I guess I'm an optimist. I don't assume someone is an idiot until they prove themselves to be one.

Seancass
July 24, 2007, 05:01 PM
most of the old people are mad because, statistically, they're going to die before the young people.

ArmedBear
July 24, 2007, 05:02 PM
It's not hard to tell who is safe and who isn't.

And age has nothing to do with it.

As my Dad used to say (maybe still does): "Did you have to get that old to be so stupid?":D

AJ Dual
July 24, 2007, 05:03 PM
I think it's in part, at least, an Internet/Computer/Discussion board phenomena. When you see a post from a new member that's got lots of "7337 5p3@k" in it and nonsense you can tell is poorly filtered Counterstrike content, "DEAGLE IS THE B00Mb wh3r3 k1n 1 g37 w0n on 3B@yz...", you're naturally suspicious you're dealing with a kid in posession of a head full of mush.

He might be an honor student at MIT, but from a post like that you'll never know it.

When you're in person, you can judge people's maturity level by their actions. However, before you have a chance to judge their actions, you have to go on what evidence you're given. The kid at the gun range might be a CMH Marine back from his first rotation in Iraq, but if he's dressed in baggy hip-hop, or "goth" wear, you won't know it.

People say don't judge a book by it's cover, but I think people can be forgiven when they walk into a bookstore that specializes in Dostoevsky, and Tolstoy, but slips dustcovers on everything that says "PORN!"

IMO, despite prejudice being looked down upon, people are also accountable for the "cover" they show the world too.

As politically aware shooters, we're also very alert that one bad incident can get our favorite, club, range or store shut down, and easily become fodder for the anti's, or the mainstream media to be used against all shooters and RKBA supporters.

Personaly, when it comes to "young shooters" I think President Regan said it best: "Trust, but verify"...

dmrodco
July 24, 2007, 05:05 PM
OK SLICK listen here. I am a ranger officer at a local range. I treat EVERYONE like they know how to handle a firearm until they prove they cannot. YES I do watch EVERYONE on the range and younger folks even more so because years on this earth do matter you have less (19) you know less simple math dont like it go somewhere else. good luck in whatever forum you end up in next. :uhoh:

igpoobah
July 24, 2007, 05:09 PM
People 'profile' other people based on what they see and relate what they see with past experiences, that is human nature. It's not going to change.

Yes, you are an optimist. I assume people are blithering idiots until they prove otherwise. Especially with firearms. ;)

My safety around people with guns is more important than my remaining objective as to what I see and how I 'profile'.

And I'm only a year older than you, so I'm certainly not profiling a 30 year old. I know as well as anyone that the difference between 20 and 30 is astronomical. I'm sure at 40, I'll be saying the same thing about the difference between 30 and 40.. :p

doubleg
July 24, 2007, 05:09 PM
Someone just got done watching "My Cousin Vinny"

Some 19 y.o. 'youts' will have the maturity to handle firearms, I would say most would not.

The problem with being a responsible 'yout' is that people treat you like you are irresponsible until you prove otherwise.

I went through this as well. Am I more mature and responsible now than I was then? Of course.

:D

junyo
July 24, 2007, 05:09 PM
I have issues with kids (and I mean sub-20s) who clog the forums and offer advice on subjects that they know little or nothing about, except to tell everyone that so and so said that Chihuahuas without vocal cords are great watchdogs, and .22LR is the sh*zn*t when fired from an assault wheelbarrow. People come here looking for a good source of information, and anything that takes away from that concerns me. A bunch of Airsoft ninjas home for the summer asking the same questions repeatedly and offering each other canned and often incorrect answers inflates the post count, but what about the body of knowledge here?
I think you get misinformation from young and old in equal proportions. The young tend to think anything they found or figured out is the latest revelation from on high, the old tend to think that The Way It's Always Been Done (at the moment in time when they were young) is the final word, incapable of improvement.

dmrodco
July 24, 2007, 05:09 PM
PS dont let the low post count fool ya sunny I only pipe up when I have something useful to say this thread just gets on my nerves the whining is like nails on a chalk board

TallPine
July 24, 2007, 05:10 PM
Don't trust anyone under 50 :p

hornadylnl
July 24, 2007, 05:11 PM
AJ Dual -"Personaly, when it comes to "young shooters" I think President Regan said it best: "Trust, but verify"..."

Why would you not feel the same way about older people? Again, a 40 year old could have bought his first gun on the way to the range before he sat down next to you.

Trust me, I don't think living another 10 years will change my outlook on younger people. I've always hated the mentality that I can cut in the lunch line because I'm a senior because the seniors did it to me. If you didn't like being mistreated by older people, why would you do it when it becomes your turn? I hated the old school people in the Army who complained that they couldn't beat us like their superiors did them. Having to stand a soldier at attention and beating them is piss poor leadership at it's worst. If it takes beating someone, get rid of them. Punish the whole group because of the actions of one idiot because that is how they did you? That ranks right up there with beating a soldier.

trueblue1776
July 24, 2007, 05:11 PM
this thread just gets on my nerves the whining is like nails on a chalk board

Amen. Hornady, we get it, you are mad the guy with the AK got in trouble.

strat81
July 24, 2007, 05:13 PM
because years on this earth do matter you have less (19) you know less simple math dont like it go somewhere else. good luck in whatever forum you end up in next.

Wow, that's one of the most belligerent, downright false statements I've ever read on THR (including L&P).

still442
July 24, 2007, 05:18 PM
Some 19 y.o. 'youts' will have the maturity to handle firearms, I would say most would not.
And on what would you base this conclusion? Does this also mean that MOST people under 20 are unfit to serve in the military, since they lack the maturity to handle firearms?

I think the NRA, with its many youth-oriented programs, would have a strong reaction to your ridiculous statement. And how did you come up with age 20 as the cut off? Why not 23? Or 17? When exactly are you old enough to handle a firearm?

because years on this earth do matter you have less (19) you know less simple math dont like it go somewhere else. good luck in whatever forum you end up in next.

HA! At 19 I was 2 years into an accelerated Ivy-league education and running a 60-man homeless shelter in a violent neighborhood in Boston with 3 other "youts"...what the hell were you up to? Clearly, not working on your expository writing skills!

hornadylnl
July 24, 2007, 05:18 PM
dmrodco -"because years on this earth do matter you have less (19) you know less simple math dont like it go somewhere else."

And I deal with people who are much older than I who have half the maturity that I do. I bought my house at age 22, have a credit score of 789 out of 830. I work with 40 and 50 year olds who would feel privelaged to own a trailer to live in because they are irresponsible. If you feel comfortable assuming that just because that person is older than me, he is more responsible, go ahead and make the incorrect assumption.

When I first started my job, I was made fun of by those older than me. I started telling them the places I've been and the things that I've seen and their attitude started to change a little. How could this 22 year old have more life experience than me?

ArmedBear
July 24, 2007, 05:19 PM
hornadylnl-

It sounds to me like you resent anyone older than you, from one of your posts, and that you look down on a lot of people, from the most recent. There's a hell of a lot more "disdain" in what you have been writing than in the original post you linked. Maybe you've earned the right to feel that way, but it doesn't make you any more open-minded than the people you criticize. Who cares, anyway? It's your right as an American to look down on "trailer trash" if you want to.

Could it be that you read your own prejudices, resentments and assumptions into a simple statement of fact in the original link? It sure seems that way to me.

Personally, at the range I try to "read" people and figure out if they can be trusted or if I need to keep one eye on where their muzzle's pointed. And quite often, young shooters have a lot more respect for safety rules and firearms than some of the old guys. But I don't feel any disdain for any of them. I like them all, until I get a damn good reason not to. I just watch my ass, because I don't want to get shot by anyone, young or old, jaded or giddy.:)

Either way, there will be old bigots and young bigots, puffed-up jerks who haven't earned the right, and humble people who don't have a need to brag. That's kinda how the world is, I think.

Deavis
July 24, 2007, 05:23 PM
You are right. Age does not equal wisdom anymore than time spent on a job makes you an expert. There are plenty of 65 year old men who are as immature as 16 year olds and plenty of 30 year veteran builders who couldn't make a shed pass a general inspection. They are, however, the loudest and most outspoken about their so called abilities along with their prejudice if they are allowed the chance.

What you are running into is two-fold. First, the classic case of projection. Many people on here believe they were irresponsible at a young age and so they project their own immature past onto you. They usually say, "Well when I was..." or "I would never have trusted myself..." or, my favorite, "You'll see, just wait xx years, you are too young to understand..."

Ignore that crap, those are the type of self-righteous people you'll never want to be friends or shoot with anyhow. They are of the same breed as many anti-gunners/control freaks, they just happen to line up with gun lovers on a few issues but probe them about alcohol, smoking, or any number of personal freedoms and the little closet authoritarian inside of them comes right out. Other tells, "Why would you need...", "Who would want...", etc, you either get my point or don't.

Second is a case of exercising caution. They don't berate you about your age or judge people because of their age, just their actions. They take steps to protect themself from the possibility of a poor decision by you based on their experience, but are willing to accept your decisions as your own choice. A person giving you a wide berth while you handle a weapon is being cautious, who knows he may have a baby on the way and doesn't know you. Maybe they are giving you good saftey tips, you have to listen to know. However, someone who gives you a wide berth and makes a disparaging comment, is one of the undesirables I already mentioned. Don't mistake the two.

The latter are the people you should care about offending or getting to know, forget the rest. Make the best decisions based on your experience and logic, if it is wrong and you are smart, you'll learn from it. I look back at every decision I have ever made and raw age has never factored into it. I made the best choice at that time in my life based on the options I had, the experience I had, and nobody can ask for anything else.

Certainly, as you get older you get more options and more experience to pull from but that doesn't mean you will make wise choices. Otherwise there wouldn't be 35 year old LEOs with a family having a ND in his house or a 28 year old father of 2 driving 80mph on the freeway in an underpowered car with shoddy brakes. People will be people, sort them, keep what you want, discard the rest.

ArmedBear
July 24, 2007, 05:32 PM
People will be people, sort them, keep what you want, discard the rest.

Why not? Nature does.:D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3e/Charles_Darwin_1854.jpg

tmajors
July 24, 2007, 05:36 PM
7h3 d15741n f0r y0u7h5 f0r m3 15 fr0m 5331n6 5ub 20 y34r 0|d5, 4nd 0v3r 50m3 0v3r 20'5 7h47 7h1nk 17 15 c00| 70 7yp3 |1k3 7h15. 17 m3|75 my 3y35 wh3n 1 533 50m30n3 p057 |1k3 7h15 h3r3.

Sorry had to do it...and yes I hired a translator.

Baba Louie
July 24, 2007, 05:38 PM
Deavis raises some interesting points.

When I was 18, I knew everything.

Now that I'm 52, somewhere along the line, I've realized how much I have to learn.

While I do attempt to avoid castigating anyone until I see (or hear) them in action, I'll admit I'm guilty of some prejudices concerning various things and/or people.

Mea culpa. BTDT

ArmedBear
July 24, 2007, 05:40 PM
It does, however, seem ironic when someone goes on about how he looks down on people, yet hates it when people look down on people, which is where this has been headed...

Sometimes it's best to leave it alone and accept that we're ALL kinda not perfect.

Why get angry about anger?

At the risk of sounding like a damn hippie...:p

Avenger29
July 24, 2007, 05:40 PM
because years on this earth do matter you have less (19) you know less simple math dont like it go somewhere else. good luck in whatever forum you end up in next.

For some weird reason, the FAA trusts me to command an airplane. In airspace with big, big airliners. Full of people, even. I guess I am just too immature for a gun, though. Even though I have been shooting for many, many years.

Yet I know of older pilots who have bought the farm because they thought they could fly on instruments without an instrument rating. I guess they were real mature, making a great decision like that!

Geno
July 24, 2007, 05:40 PM
I've seen 15-year-olds who impressed me in their firearms maturity, and 50-year-olds who appalled me. The individual must be assessed individually. That said, I have not noted an overwhelming amount of negativity Re: age here at THR. Four or five negative statements do not constitute a "trend".

hornadylnl
July 24, 2007, 05:44 PM
Here is some food for thought.

In order to maintain our 2a, we have to expand the number of gun owners out there. If noone is introduced over the next several years, many gun owners will die off and we know that no politician will be afraid to trample the rights of a miniscule population. The best people to recruit are the young. Many of them will be voting for the next 40-60 years. If you don't take the time to introduce a young person to shooting, who will? Or there is the other option. We can all assume that they are too incompetent to handle a gun and watch our group grow smaller.

By denigrating our youth, it is kind of hard to attract them to the 2a.

dmrodco
July 24, 2007, 05:46 PM
Ace it certainly sounds as if YOUR the one with the problem.IF you are as you say you should have the confidence to stand on your own. However all I hear from you so far is an incessant whining at around 120hz and I for one would like it to stop. :cool:

Larry Ashcraft
July 24, 2007, 05:50 PM
Hornady, I think you are seeing a problem where none exists. I trusted my son with firearms at age eight. One of our moderators is a "kid" compared to me, but I've been shooting with him several times, and his safety habits are impeccable.

I think you are just looking for a reason to be offended. And that's spoken as a member, not a moderator.

trueblue1776
July 24, 2007, 05:57 PM
In order to maintain our right to smoke, we have to expand the number of smokers out there. If noone is introduced over the next several years, many smokers will die off and we know that no politician will be afraid to trample the rights of a miniscule population. The best people to recruit are the young. Many of them will be voting for the next 40-60 years. If you don't take the time to introduce a young person to smoking, who will? Or there is the other option. We can all assume that they are too incompetent to handle smoking cigarettes and watch our group grow smaller.


(That argument works for every hobby.)

Mannlicher
July 24, 2007, 05:59 PM
You have many older people who do nothing but complain about how the youth have no respect for their elders. If they did something beside denigrate them, maybe they would earn the respect of the youth. You have to give respect to get it.

Numbers of days lived on this earth doesn't equate to wisdom. Age helps but isn't the be all end all.

ah ha. Now that last line sounds like disdane for your elders :eek:

hornadylnl
July 24, 2007, 06:03 PM
Armed bear, I wasn't "hating" anyone. Merely pointing out examples of how maturity isn't based on age. It was the same group of posters over and over flaming the 19 year old ak owner instead of defending his rights. There are a few flaming the Virginia guys but nowhere to the extent that they flamed the ak owner. My point is that we must fight for all gun owners and all legal exercises of the 2a. Instead, people chose to bash the guy for trying to pick up chicks, show off or what have you.

Unless you listen to the same music and wear the same style of clothes that your parents do, they don't like your styles either. The type of clothes that someone wears is irrelevant.

Sistema1927
July 24, 2007, 06:05 PM
1) Age has its perks. :)

2) Age has its disadvantages. :(

3) Do you expect that the "generation gap" would be less visible here than it is in the rest of the universe? :confused:

4) There are 8 year olds that I would trust with my guns (and my life). :)

5) There are 30/40/50/60/etc. year olds that I wouldn't trust with a water pistol. :eek:

JohnBT
July 24, 2007, 06:09 PM
I remember that thread and I don't remember but one or two mentions of the guy's age. The discussion was about his behavior (walking up and down the street as reported in the original article and raising the suspicions of witnesses.)

IOW, you've made a mountain out of molehill.

"I grew up with guns and did a lot of shooting. I got a Remington 1187 for Christmas when I was 13. Your assumption of my knowledge because of my age would make you look ignorant."

Ah, another youngster. I was 37 the year the 11-87 was introduced, so that means, subtract 7, carry the 2, um, I've been shooting over 50 years. Coming up on 55 since the day I fired my first gun (with an adult holding it.)

JohnButidontfeeloldT

P.S. - It's great you're an experienced shooter, but there are many here with more than you and me.

hornadylnl
July 24, 2007, 06:10 PM
Mannlicher -"ah ha. Now that last line sounds like disdane for your elders"

I have a lot of respect for all people. I love to listen to anyone from different backgrounds tell me their perspective on life, whether they be older, of a different color, or from around the world. I can sit around for hours and listen to stories from older vets. I love listening to my Grandma. She is just a simple farm wife in most peoples eyes but is probably the classiest person I know.

If you have no respect for me, you will receive the same in return.

I give up my seat for elders, I hold the door for everyone. But just because someone is older than another, it doesn't mean the younger deserves less respect than the older.

rugerdude
July 24, 2007, 06:14 PM
Hmm, I'm even younger (17 as of 3 months ago) and yet I have not experienced any distain so far on this forum or TFL (in which I am a far more active member).

Even with my downright silly threads like the T.A.R.D. where I duct taped a 10/22 to a stock that could swivel left and right, I got nothing negative despite it being incredibly silly.

I now have 10 firearms including 2 handguns despite the fact that I cannot buy any of them myself or the ammo for them. I have them because I am mature and cool headed and my parents see that.

I have never been looked down upon in a gunstore or gunshow because if you maintain eye contact and speak clear, correct english, you'll find that most people don't care if you're young.;)

RancidSumo
July 24, 2007, 06:14 PM
I have only seen people discouraging young people to own guns once on this forum but it is kind of irritating when it happens to you...

Spiggy:
note, the poster's profile states he is only 15 years old

Sounds like someone should get airsoft :P

hornadylnl
July 24, 2007, 06:23 PM
JohnBT, you are younger than my dad. I don't view my dad as being old. He looks a lot younger than people his age did 20 years ago.

Lonestar49
July 24, 2007, 06:27 PM
Quote: For some weird reason, the FAA trusts me to command an airplane. In airspace with big, big airliners. Full of people, even. I guess I am just too immature for a gun, though. Even though I have been shooting for many, many years.

Yet I know of older pilots who have bought the farm because they thought they could fly on instruments without an instrument rating. I guess they were real mature, making a great decision like that!
-------------------
...

Yes, the FAA trust you, as your Pilots Licence is good for as long as you live, unless you screw the pooch in some way that they revoke it.. And like you, everyone that has one "earned one" earned it, as they are not given away thru incompetency testing, such as drivers licence's, nor can they be bought, like Drivers Licences.. Otherwise, you, me, everyone that has one, (less than 1% of the total USA population has a pilots licence, btw), earned it thru oral, written, and physical flight testing, and must pass yearly, every-2yr or every 6 month FAA DR. certified physicals, depending on the type ticket (Pilots Licence) one has "earned" to stay flying with what type ticket he or she has. Not to mention each of us has to have an annual (yearly) or bi-bi-annual (every other year) flight test, to keep flying legally. All safeguards for the public, that ride with you or live and work below you. Can you say the same about gun ownership?

I would just point to all the drivers you see daily, good and bad, but read about stupid accidents, ongoing, because of the numbers involved, and look at the age that holds the worst records, and why.. young. And if they drive stupid, then how do you think they may handle a dangerous weapon, with help from booze, drugs, cockiness, to prove a point, etc.? And to be fair, older and old people have their faults as well in both these areas, of dangerous weapons in the wrong hands, but the age and numbers, do not lie.

Unlike just going out and buying a gun, self teaching and not letting temptation get the better part of that excitement, where as, your statement about "older pilots buy the farm" because they went out, thinking they could fly instruments, without any, or just the little it takes to get the private licence is a myth-statement on your part.

The facts are: Most Private, and Commercial accidents, involving death occur to Doctors, and Lawyers, bar none, with, and I'm sure, without a Commercial Ticket/Licence and auger in, but to be clear to the readers, most auger in, bite the farm, because one, they were not current, meaning, "use it, or lose it".. one gets rusty very fast when it comes to pure instrument flying. And, even IF they are current, they tend to "Panic" when the crap hits the fan.." because they ran out of gas.. How dumb is that, to die for? No excuse for running out of gas, any good pilot knows his fuel and distance with extra for 30 mins or 1hr to hover-over ones destination, airport to land at, fuel wise. But many go in for just that reason.. It will be a perfect trip, we have just enough fuel if nothing goes wrong.. WRONG

Ya see, they pass written test like going thru butter.. and pass flight exams easy, but the real issue is, emergency procedures, which few practice enough to really know how to use them, thus panic, AND, most of the same type fliers DO NOT know when to say NO and turn back..

Can you say the same about gun ownership, what it takes to be smart, reliable around others, dealing with emergency's, passing a health test, etc, etc.? NO

Therefore each incident with a gun is marked by age, sex, reason, etc., and the chips fall where they fall..

The decision to land or go around or turn back or GET some training from someone that knows about this gun or that rifle, unlike those that think they can fly a plane because they read some books, and can kick ass on any flight sim PC, is not the person you want to go flying with, and I dare say, same deal going out with someone with little or NO experience including the most important 4 rules of gun safety etched in their make-up, let alone, know the type gun one has, inside and out, as it is with any aircraft "rating" of various aircraft with one, two, or 4 props or 2, 3, or 4 jets. Simple, complex, or High Performance type aircraft, as well. Not to mention one of my favorites, no engine/s, a glider, one shot landings.

Planes flown by know-it-alls, or with false-courage, as to, never turn back or say no, go hand in hand with the same type folks, young or old, that play with guns.

A man has got to know his limitations.. And I have known a few, but have read about just as many, young pilots dying for being stupid and, when you talk about old pilots, wait till you've flown for 27yrs, me in fact, mainly aerobatics, limited, but for fun, but at a risk, then you can say what is an old pilot.. Until you've got that kind of time under your wings my friend, anything, any pilot, you're referring to, is still young.. young man.. ;)

There are old Pilots, but there are no Old Bold Pilots has truth in it, and is absolutely a falsehood, depending who you fly with, talk to and, who were your "mentors in aviation", otherwise, good instruction/instructors, make for good habits good pilots, bad instruction/instructors make for bad habits, but in the end, as Pilot in Command, and owner of a gun, you are responsible for the good, or bad, decisions you make, including how they may effect others.

Live long, and tell a story..


LS

McKnife
July 24, 2007, 06:31 PM
I don't trust anyone under 18 or over 40. :neener: :scrutiny:

Both groups think they're too smart for their own good.

TEDDY
July 24, 2007, 06:32 PM
at 17 I entered the service(navy)at 18 I was an experianced machine gunner
and small arms expert.at 21 I got married it lasted 31 yrs.I'm older than most and I am still learning.most all of my generation grew up fast.bigitry comes in all styles.age/race/education/geografic/sex/whatever.
be good friends you only live once make it your best.:) :) :)

Prince Yamato
July 24, 2007, 06:33 PM
The tendency to dump on younger people on THR (I'm guilty as charged btw) is because these posts, once... posted, become a permanent fixture on the internet and that anyone can search. Even if deleted, the wayback machine (http://www.archive.org/index.php) can still dredge it up. I don't want anti-gun people casting judgement upon us, based on a couple posts about Anime, Harry Potter, or Halo. In their own right, it's fine if you have enthusiasm, about each of those subjects. The problem occurs when people start bringing up topics of fantasy in a forum about a very serious reality (firearms ownership). I (and most people on THR) probably don't know, care, or want to know about gun handling in the latest Streamline Pictures anime flick. What we do care about is the teenager who posts a question about RKBA or sighting in his SKS or something like that.

Aside from all that, teenagers have a tendency to make stuff up and in addition, have a rather pathetic inability to disguise illegal activities, ("So, I was at my friend's house and his Dad has like this gun, that like is a machinegun that he built last year... lol... is it legal?").

Not all teenagers are like this and I would encourage the responsible ones to chide their peers who act immature. I personally loathe the concept of "teenager" in general, as I think it gives an air of acceptability to irresponsible behavior, but that's probably just the Victorian in me talking. Anyhow, if you're one of the responsible ones, you know who you are, and due to the blessing of internet anonymity, we probably don't know who you are. So you can masquerade as an "adult". In the real world, you'll still look like a kid and you'll get treated as such. It's unfair, but that's life. If it makes you feel better, I'm in my 20s, a year and a half away from getting a PhD and people still treat me as a subordinate.

KenRocks
July 24, 2007, 06:35 PM
I've noticed the ageism thing quite a bit in gun shops and those sort of settings, and I have to admit that it does get on my nerves...

I can honestly say, however, that I've never been treated with anything but respect on this forum and had a hell of a good time as one of very few youngins at the one THR shoot I've managed to attend so far. There are always a few elitist folk, but I wouldnt let them characterize the group at large...it'd be just as easy to say every gunny is a snob, from my experience in shops :)

hornadylnl
July 24, 2007, 06:37 PM
I was talking to an older guy at work one night about kids and giving them advice. He said kids don't take advice and I asked if he was any different. He said he was smart enough to know that there was a lot that he didn't know when he was young. I'm the same way. I gladly take advice from those who know. No one likes taking advice from anyone when it is given in a condescending manner.

It has been discussed on here many times that we must treat women with respect if we want them to become gun owners. IE, no making fun of or talking down to a woman in a gunshop, etc. We must do the same for our youth. Educate and lift them up.

Aries-
July 24, 2007, 06:38 PM
its all along the same lines as anyone over 40 doesent know jack about computers. or anyone over 60 cant drive worth a damn. its all perspective and point of view.

i know many people over 40 that know how to use computers very very well. i also know a lot of 40+ people that know squat and are a hazard to any computer they touch. same with the driving.

being 27 im kind of in between. ive been shooting since i was able to hold a gun. and am a 6 time gold medal marksman at the military base where i live.
im glad i have never had any problems with people thinking im a hazzard to anyone around when handleing a firearm when i was younger.

but im with the people that treats everyone like an idiot untill they prove they arent. keeps me safer.

hornadylnl
July 24, 2007, 06:45 PM
The reason I brought up the 19 year old ak owner is that I'd bet "folding money" that if the article stated that the ak owner was over 40, the thread wouldn't have taken the same tone that it did. Noone would have said that he was doing it to try to pick up chicks if he were over 40. That comment gives pretty good incite into the fact that the owner's age was a factor in their opinion of the situation.

Art Eatman
July 24, 2007, 06:46 PM
Anybody born after 1934 just oughta grab a mouthful of shutup. Buncha younguns don' know nuthin'.

:D:D:D

Sorry. Cain't he'p it. Just a character defect...

Art

Im283
July 24, 2007, 06:57 PM
When you see a post from a new member that's got lots of "7337 5p3@k" in it and nonsense you can tell is poorly filtered Counterstrike content, "DEAGLE IS THE B00Mb wh3r3 k1n 1 g37 w0n on 3B@yz...", you'

Maybe I do not look hard enough, but on this forum I never see anything that resembles the above example.

CajunBass
July 24, 2007, 07:06 PM
I'm trying to figure out how I'm supposed to know how old you are, (or race, sex, etc.) unless you make a point of it?

You either come across as someone who knows what they're talking about, or you don't.

alucard0822
July 24, 2007, 07:14 PM
The reason I brought up the 19 year old ak owner is that I'd bet "folding money" that if the article stated that the ak owner was over 40, the thread wouldn't have taken the same tone that it did. Noone would have said that he was doing it to try to pick up chicks if he were over 40. That comment gives pretty good incite into the fact that the owner's age was a factor in their opinion of the situation.

peope will be people, could have just as easy been the young'ns talking about some crazy old hermit (story just on the news about a 65 year old man described as such who had 35 firearms taken for the good of Baltimore, only 16 were "registered"). Young folk tend to be impressionable, and need older folk to show them the way, afterall who are the ones raising these kids? I think mutual respect and sharing some of that time honored wisdom can go a long way in preserving our rights, if we don't help teach the kids, guess who will.

pdowg881
July 24, 2007, 07:17 PM
I actaully left this forum for awhile because people would assume I was wrong or lying when I'd ask for advice by a personal story. They'd start there explanation with "your 18 so I doubt...." or something assuming you did something wrong that your refusing to say because your young. It got me pretty mad, and unfortunately even though not everyone on the board acts that way, it certainly felt like it.


I'm glad I came back though. I just ignore people who judge people's intelligence and maturity on age. You would think gun owners off all people would think twice before doing such a thing.


It's sort of like the assumptions that come up in a small group of people when the discussion is about a LEO.

Ian
July 24, 2007, 07:22 PM
I've never noticed any particular disdain for youths here...idiots, yes, youths, no. Can't recall experiencing any personally, and I'm 23 (and have been a member here since I was 19).

rdaines
July 24, 2007, 07:25 PM
Different ages groups approach life differently, a 15 y.o. vs a 25 y.o. vs a 40 y.o . and so on. Just a matter of biology, hormones and, yes, maturity. Are there examples that buck the trend, sure, but like a lot of things someone else made up the rules. Sometimes these trends are based on data sometimes on bias. In general, younger folks tend to be more reckless than older people. But not always...

Picknlittle
July 24, 2007, 07:30 PM
I have to wonder how the now closed thread concerning the 19 y.o. with the ak, would have changed if it had read, "A 35 year old man walking through..." or "a 55 year old man walking,..."

Some were so quick to dump on this kid armed with absolutely no information at all to indicate that he had done anything but breath, walk and carry what was an unloaded AK.

He was accused of carrying a loaded weapon. He was accused of exhibitionism. He was accused of poor judgment. He was accused of being a threat. The gun really wasn't the issue at all.

There was no behavior reported that indicated this kid deserved the treatment he got from the neighbors, the police, or so called 2A supporters on this forum.
We need to change channels,...I'm getting pissed all over again. So much for the high road!

Gunpacker
July 24, 2007, 07:35 PM
Quote:"1. The staff seemed very young. They were knowledgable and ran everything safely but they I do not think that any of them could be much older than 21 if that." http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=287598
End Quote.

What more could anyone ask than that??

scrat
July 24, 2007, 07:36 PM
Ok i got tired of reading all this. so i guess thats what happens when you come in a post late. I do agree though. You see it on the rifle forum. They are all anctious to get an ar15 or an sks. Not even knowing the difference in firearms or handeling. Then they all seem to be the first ones to offer advice.

Any how i guess thats all a part of life and growing up. Just have to ask them to respect their guns and respect the people who are around them. People who shoot seriously and who reload are out for a reason. To get better at what they love. Most of the 19year olds are only interested in seeing how much ammo they can shoot in an hour.

ArfinGreebly
July 24, 2007, 07:37 PM
My twenty-year-old son is smarter than the whole bunch of ya.

How do I know this?

Well, he's smarter than I am (evidence: he no longer needs my advice, but has plenty for me).

And I've been smarter than most of you since I was twenty, myself.

I remember hearing, in my youth, that one's IQ diminished with age. I think I now know why that seems to be.

Each successive generation is certain it is smarter than the one before it (all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding), and since the more "mature" among us don't SEEM to have lost all the smarts they picked up over the years, the only thing I can believe is that the newer generation is operating at a higher IQ calibration.

Adjusted for inflation, of course.

:D

ArfinGreebly
July 24, 2007, 07:40 PM
Most of the 19year olds are only interested in seeing how much ammo they can shoot in an hour.
Well, heck!

I'll take that gig, if someone will pay for the ammo!

Lonestar49
July 24, 2007, 07:42 PM
Quote: I've never noticed any particular disdain for youths here...idiots, yes, youths, no. Can't recall experiencing any personally, and I'm 23 (and have been a member here since I was 19).
----------
...

And you, young "man" is where my money would be placed-on, as being able to stand, and act, responsible, and set the right tone, being a good mentor, by standing on your own two feet, giving me hope, and trust, for our youth..

Just that simple.. as was your sound statement.


LS

RancidSumo
July 24, 2007, 07:49 PM
People who shoot seriously and who reload are out for a reason. To get better at what they love. Most of the 19year olds are only interested in seeing how much ammo they can shoot in an hour.

I am 15 and don't just go out to throw a ton of ammo down range. I do shoot a ton of ammo when I go but when you don't have any bills and you work two jobs you can buy a lot of ammo. All of my friends that I shoot with go out to get better and to have fun.

Owens
July 24, 2007, 07:59 PM
In my profession, I work with 18-21 YOA folks. Some of them (majority)have a level head. Others.... well we'll just let that be. There does eem to be a conditioned attitude. I am not a social expert, so I can't say exactly where it comes from. A variety of sources and circumstances I'm sure. I will say this about attitude though...it is an outward expression of inside feeling. For the most part, they seem mature. But they do have their moments, as we are all prone to at times.I try to procede from the presumption (dangerous?) that they have the good sense that God gave a goose. Most of the time I am right. Anyway... to the point... I guess you would call it on my part as having a guarded trust, unless shown otherwise.

It is interesting to observe and wonder why they do some of the things they do, but well, all I can say is age has a reflective quality in it.

youth...a relative term.

hornadylnl
July 24, 2007, 08:11 PM
I've been reloading since I was 23 or 24 and I only allow my supply to increase.:D

In fact, my wife complains when I want to buy more components because I don't shoot what I have..;)

Neo-Luddite
July 24, 2007, 08:39 PM
When I was 19 (or a bit more) I remember getting odd looks at the range. I was with friends, had military hardware, and there was -- call it a lack of understanding. Many 19 year olds are more-than-up to the task of running a firing line safely. I would venture to say that 19 year-old me would have had the maturity to do it.

There's no cure except getting older yourself. Unless it really matters, let the older, crustier, man win the discussion. And hope you don't become him one day.

hso
July 24, 2007, 08:47 PM
Age and maturity do not always equate. Behavior does though.

U.S.SFC_RET
July 24, 2007, 08:58 PM
I am fairly easy going with most anyone regardless of age. Attitude matters regardless of age. If you are hardheaded and stupid at 55, and I have seen it. Nothing will change your mind. There is less of a hope with you at 55 than most of the youth I have reached most of my adult years. If you want to dress like you don't want people to mingle with you, ie.. Punk, Goth and you have an attitude that you are a punk than go be a punk. If you look like you want to tackle life straight forward and are comfortable with others than that's the signal you are sending to other people.
If you go to the range looking like a gangsta, to most people you are a gangsta. People can only characterize you by how you look. Most people don't want to know you if you look like trouble.
I have mentored more youth than I could possible even count. They know that they are young and they need good mentors. The shooting sports can be a great venue to break the ice.

pdowg881
July 24, 2007, 09:02 PM
"Most of the 19year olds are only interested in seeing how much ammo they can shoot in an hour."



I wish I could afford to shoot for an hour. Most 19 year olds don't make that kind of money. They only caliber I can afford to shoot often is .22.
Everything else is a few here and there.

knockonit
July 24, 2007, 09:14 PM
Yep, when I was 19 I couldnt send enought ammo down the hill of that firebase, as a young marine, there wasn't any need not to send as much ammo as you could to the other side.
I now have four daughters all whom have had and will probably have many more boyfriends. Several of them have them that are either in the eastern conflict or have returned. Most you couldn't tell from any other 20 years old.
Me thinks you do the young people a dis-service in your sterotyping of all young people.
But what the hell, after a blink or two they'll be as old as you and you'll be gone.
As a previous fella mentioned don't let the post number fool ya, just aint that many things to talk intelligently about sometimes.
old new guy.

B yond
July 24, 2007, 09:20 PM
I'm too lazy to read 3 pages about this, so if what I've got to say has been said already I apologize.

Some 19 y.o. 'youts' will have the maturity to handle firearms, I would say most would not.

If they're mature enough to fight and die for our country, they're probably mature enough to handle firearms. Of course, everyone, no matter how old, needs some basic training in firearms safety.

Flyboy
July 24, 2007, 09:53 PM
Some 19 y.o. 'youts' will have the maturity to handle firearms, I would say most would not.

:barf:

Funny enough, I've known more than a few "youts," and I'd say the majority were mature enough fo handle firearms.

Were most of them sufficiently educated about firearms to handle them safely? No. But that doesn't mean that they lack the maturity (ability) to do so, just the education (teaching) to do so.

Here's a thought: why not seek out those "youts" and teach them? They really are the future of the Second Amendment.

JohnBT
July 24, 2007, 10:27 PM
"If they're mature enough to fight and die for our country, they're probably mature enough to handle firearms."

Yes, but even the military supervises them. Right? Keeps a close eye on them until they prove themselves. Right? Trains them. Right?

Why? Because they're young, inexperienced and need it. No big deal.

When I'm around guns I watch everybody.

John

Dorryn
July 24, 2007, 11:05 PM
I don't like shooters older than me, because they assume i'm ignorant. And I don't like shooters younger than me, because I assume they're ignorant. :D

Dysfunctional Individual
July 24, 2007, 11:15 PM
I treat EVERYONE like they know how to handle a firearm until they prove they cannot.

By then it may be too late.

bigun15
July 24, 2007, 11:36 PM
Well I guess I should chime in too, since I'm one of the few "youts" on here (17). I can't argue that some people my age aren't complete idiots. Some of them will mature out of it and some of them won't. I've taught multiple people around my age how to shoot and they've ALL been great. I've never looked down a barrel or anything.

But I do think it's unfair for me to come to this board and this thread and read about how I don't know what I'm doing because, despite anything and everything, I was born in 1990. Therefore, I'm screwed.

Maybe the day before I die I'll be accepted.

Art Eatman
July 24, 2007, 11:39 PM
There's an awful lot of sloppy use of words/meanings in this thread. Be that as it may, it's not really getting anything accomplished in the way of meaningful discussion.

Enuf fer wun nite.

Art

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