Possible loadings for HD and SD ammo for a .308 pump


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miko
July 24, 2007, 05:20 PM
Being a pump design, my Rem 7600P can shoot pretty much everything .308 that would feed into the chamber. I'd like to exploit this versatility for a "one-rifle for all occasions" project.

A standard 150-168 grain .308 is generally considered an overkill for HD due to over-penetration, especially in urban area. Even for short-range general SD situation the standard round is not optimal, since it is designed to deliver energy efficiently to much longer range. The shooter pays with a relatively heavy recoil - especially in a light (7 pound) rifle.
That recoil, not to mention bang and flash, cost the speed and accuracy of follow-up shots which is important at close range.

I believe a loading was developed specifically for police that uses a light (115grain?) bullet at higher velocity, to be used with low-recoil at relatively close (iron-sight, 0-75yds) distances. That sounds interesting - as a fast 110-130 grain bullet might actually deliver greater energy at close range and at much reduced recoil than a standard round.

I imagine, M1 carbine bullets can be used for such SD purpose. Would an M1 bullet out of 7600 be under-stabilised or over-stabilised?
Anyone tried anything like that or read anything relevant? Any recepies? Suggestions?


For HD, a lighter powder loading with a relatively light bullet can be developed - providing sufficient energy but further limiting recoil and especially over-penetration. Some kind of a HP or round-nose lead bullet would be preferable, but I imagine a regular bullet can be loaded backwards - maybe even with a small indentation/cavity drilled into the exposed lead of the base.
Basically, an AK-type loading (7.62x39) or even M1 type, but with more radically expanding ammo - from a .308. How about that?

miko

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Heavy Metal Hero
July 24, 2007, 05:23 PM
I am going to get this out of the way so it doesn't get brought up later, but are you absolutely sure you want this rifle for HD? A cheap 12 gauge shottie doesn't interest you?

Either way you have some interesting questions there that I cannot answer unfortunately.

goon
July 24, 2007, 05:58 PM
Doesn't Hornady already load a TAP round in .308?
That might work well and it has the advantage of being a factory loaded round instead of your evil puppy maiming handload that was designed from the beginning to cause undue suffering to the poor innocent intruder that you shot with it.
;)

Nameless_Hobo
July 24, 2007, 06:12 PM
Didn't the military use 147 grain loads? Try a load like that, and give it a light charge of powder. If recoil is a factor, you could get a limbsaver or other recoil pad. In reality, when the adrenaline is pumping, you won't notice the flash or the recoil.
In my opinion, If this is your "do all" rifle, you should standardize your rounds. Use the same load for bad guys as you would for hunting or such. Why? Mostly the logistics. It's easier to just grab your one style of ammunition than grab a certain type for a certain situation.

I'm in the same boat as you are, I plan on using a bolt action .308 as a SHTF/general purpose rifle as soon as I can make up my mind on which one I want. I'd take opionions if anyone's willing to send me them via PM.

R.W.Dale
July 24, 2007, 06:22 PM
I believe a loading was developed specifically for police that uses a light (115grain?) bullet at higher velocity, to be used with low-recoil at relatively close (iron-sight, 0-75yds) distances. That sounds interesting - as a fast 110-130 grain bullet might actually deliver greater energy at close range and at much reduced recoil than a standard round.

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=149

http://www.northwestloading.com/catalog/images/TAP_FPD_308_pkg.jpg

my762buzz
July 24, 2007, 06:22 PM
The only .308 HD loading I would think of using is the Hornady 110 grain Tap.
10 or 11 inches of penetration in ballistic gel. As long as the home invader isn'
t anorexic/bolemic, the bullet should create alot of trauma and not exit.
http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_sub/gelatin_testing/308_110gr_hornady_tap_14in_barrel/308_110gr_hornady_tap_a_small_illustrated.jpg

Blakenzy
July 24, 2007, 07:21 PM
Just took a peak at what the rem 7600P looks like (never heard of it before) and must say that it is the home defense gun in perfection! I honestly feel it is a great inprovement in "civilian" rifle desing. With short distance high-performing new rounds as TAP and such, it is awesome.

miko
July 25, 2007, 10:50 AM
I am going to get this out of the way so it doesn't get brought up later, but are you absolutely sure you want this rifle for HD? A cheap 12 gauge shottie doesn't interest you?
I already have a Mossberg 590 ghostring and a couple of Marlin levers in .357.
The .308 (and .243) pumps are supposed to fill the need for a longer reach. As long as I have them and the loading setup, I though it could be fun to develop such a load.


Doesn't Hornady already load a TAP round in .308?
Thank you. Hornady TAP Personal Defense Ammunition 308 Winchester 110 Grain Polymer Tip Point is pretty much what I was thinking about - "Review: I tested this round for use by my Police Department. The penetration in various mediums was very similar to the 55g .223 FMJ loads that my department was currently using, but with almost twice the energy and nearly complete fragmentation. Performed exactly as advertised."


I'm in the same boat as you are, I plan on using a bolt action .308 as a SHTF/general purpose rifle as soon as I can make up my mind on which one I want.
Consider a Rem 7600 - the "P" may be too expensive (I got mine used) but a regular one in 22" barrel can be had for about $450 from Wal-Mart.
I checked and a smith at Gander Mtn offered to cut and recrown the barrel and move back the front sight for $70. If I did not stumble on this one, I would have done that for an 18" barrel.
The receiver ghost-ring or peep sight is nice but not essential - and can be installed aftermarket. I would mount some kind of scope on it anyway - most likely a Burris Short Mag Scope 2-7x26mm (9.5") on QD rings.

With free-floating barrel, this pump is supposedely as accurate as comparable price bolt-action - which is plenty. 2MOA is an 8-inch group at 400 yards and this rifle can do better than that - sub-MOA are reported with good ammo.

As a benefit, you get loading three times as fast as bolt without moving your hands off position. And it's about as non-evil for legal purposes as a bolt.

miko

Nameless_Hobo
July 25, 2007, 02:24 PM
Another thing to add to my above suggestion, if you should go to trial, and the attorney decides to pull out the "He used frangible bullets, designed to cause massive, painful wounds" bull****, you can give your best "aw, shucks, that's just my hunting bullets" impersonation.

I looked at the 7600, but, I don't really like pump action rifles, I'm a bolt action kind of guy.

miko
July 25, 2007, 06:44 PM
I looked at the 7600, but, I don't really like pump action rifles, I'm a bolt action kind of guy.

They feel strange in the beginning - not many people know about those besides hunters, despite wide popularity of pump shotguns in US. But those who own them swear by them.

If you are shooting a high-recoil load - which is the case with a service caliber and a light-weight rifle, the speed of a follow-up shot becomes an issue.

When the rifle rocks back, the forward hand gets pushed back and naturally continues to eject the case, then the forward "pull" movement helps return the weapon on target quicker. Basically, with some practice you could actually make aimed shots faster] that with a semi-auto - even a heavier, lighter-recoiling semi-auto. At least when shooting off-hand.

I would have had hard time believing that if my neighbour did not demonstrate it to me. He has the Rem 7600 30-06 Carbine - same rifle but 18" barrel instead of standard 22".
With 220 grain bullet that thing kicked a lot - and he could shoot so fast I couldn't hear the gap between shot-rack-shot. He put two bullets finger-width apart at 50 yards with a scope.
He is an avid deer/moose hunter and claims he can shoot and hit a deer twice - and I believe him.

Play with one at the store - you might be surprised! :)
You can get after-market 10-rd mags from at least three different manufacturers and the stocks are interchangeable with popular Remington shotguns.

miko

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