Double Rifle


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Big Daddy K
July 24, 2007, 08:26 PM
Reading H&H Hunters post on Texas pig hunting and his double rifle got me to thinking. :uhoh:

Does anyone make a double rifle in say 30.06 or other Americanish caliber that is affordable?

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D&T
July 24, 2007, 09:02 PM
The Ruger Red Label and Gold Label shotgun can be converted into a double rifle. My most popular chambering is for the 9.3X74R cartridge but have never done one for the 30-06 as rimmed cartridges are preferred for the double guns....

tcrocker
July 24, 2007, 09:31 PM
EEA makes an doublein 06. But Remington bought them and I can't think of there new name.

Jim Watson
July 24, 2007, 09:45 PM
How many thousands do you consider affordable?

The Baikal that EAA advertised for years without actually having any to sell, that was taken over by Remington as a Spartan, now SPR, is not now cataloged on their site. Apparently the Russkies had trouble delivering the goods.

zedheadmc
July 25, 2007, 01:12 AM
I was on the phone a couple of weeks ago with Remington and was asking about the Spartans. I was told that they would be here in and for 2008. Coming in 30.06 and 45-70. I guess we will see.

quicktime
July 25, 2007, 01:32 AM
Well it is not cheap but Dakota makes a double rifle. As with any custom gun you are paying for the status symbol but I believe that holds true with a double rifle in general. And Dakota is chamberd in "American" cartridges and I am sure they will build whatever your pocket book supports.

Outlaws
July 25, 2007, 01:44 AM
Well it is not cheap but Dakota makes a double rifle. As with any custom gun you are paying for the status symbol but I believe that holds true with a double rifle in general.

I take it you have never held a custom rifle. Rifles might not be worth thousands to you, but to lump it as a status symbol is just ignorant/arrogant.

BTW, Holland & Holland might charge $100,000 or more for one of their double guns, but if you look at the website, the average rifle has 1200 man hours in the production. This is not cheap labor making those either, those are some of the worlds finest craftsmen at work during all of the the actual production and the engraving.

quicktime
July 25, 2007, 05:26 AM
How can it not be a status symbol? Let's look at the facts. They are not overly accurate. By this I mean you do not see any double rifles participating in a benchrest competition. So accuracy does not figure in to the price. These guns are majority astetics and minority service. A status symbol in my book was something that was acquired to let the general populus know that you have achieved a comfortable place financially in life. I feel it is something that is priced higher due to an increase in looks. It usually serves the same purpose as something that cost slightly less with a small improvement in function. A perfect example is a Rolex it keeps time but so does a Timex or any other number of brands. I am sure that the debate can be had over how much better that a Rolex functions than a Timex but at the end of most days the same time will read on each dial. Back to the rifle the only attribute functionally that I have heard of is that in the dangerous game arena you have a second round available just by pulling the trigger instead of having to cycle some type of action. And believe it or not I do own a couple of custom rifles worth several thousands of dollars each. I actually consider myself a snob because I will not shoot a mass produced bolt rifle. I have never short changed anyone or called them arrogant and or ignorant without first finding out their situation. I believe there are very few people in the world who do not want to own that one piece of whatever no matter how big or small to let the people familiar with their interest know they have achieved a comfortable place in life. So to all those that inspire to own that Rolex or Mercedes or Double Rifle good luck to you and I honestly wish you the best. That is the reason I am writing this from a fourth world country. I am hoping to improve my spot on financial food chain and be able to have a few more customs in the safe.

quicktime
July 25, 2007, 05:32 AM
Another short addition so that everyone knows. I am a true fan of custom rifles. I know a few of the folks at Nesika/Dakota very well and feel that they are more artists than workers. I am sure that this holds true in many custom shops around the world. My personal tastes lie more in target rifles so the artwork of checkering and engraving is not there but there is just as much pride and craftmanship in all of the rifles I own and they always draw a crowd at the range. I am happy to show anyone who asks my rifles and take pride in the craftmanship of the people that built them for me and I am one of their biggest spokesman.

Spinner
July 25, 2007, 06:32 AM
Well, to some people a double rifle may be a status symbol, but I don't think its fair to say that all people who want a double rifle are only after a status symbol or bragging rights or wish to show everyone how wealthy/important/daring they are. In fact I'd say tha majority of people expressing interest in them these days are just the opposite. The original poster was asking about a double rifle that is modestly priced .... that sounds to me like he/she was after a double rifle for a more practical purpose than to simply show off.

Personally, I'd like to get myself a double, and its true that I have no real practical use for a double. I don't regularly hunt Cape Buffalo, I don't have to chase the elephant off my potato patch every morning, I'm not stalked by leopard on a regular basis, but I still want a double. I don't want to have to sell a kidney to get myself one either. I have no doubt that a fine bespoke double rifle in a suitably ferocious calibre would make for wonderful bragging rights, I'm more interested in a more modest calibre ... say 30.06 or maybe .45-70. And I'm not ready to commit $20-30,000 (or much, much more) to a custom double rifle. I might be wrong, but I'd hazard a guess that there are plenty of other people who might think similarly. There has been a consistent and persistant interest in the Baikal sxs double rifle, both when it was listed by EAA and then when Remington listed the Spartan branded unit ... this is/was a lower priced double rifle available in practical calibres (.270, .308, .30-06, .45-70) that nobody in their right minds would buy simply for a status symbol. Its unfortunate that it hasn't materialised as yet.

BTW, although the Dakota rifles look very, very nice Butch Searcy also builds superb all-american double rifles and they cost around US$12-18,000, are beautifully crafted, reliable, practical and superbly accurate .... and there are in fact target shooting matches for double rifles these days. I think the days of the pith helmet wearing, khaki clad, mustachioed British toff with a pink gin in one hand and a bespoke Holland & Holland 4 bore double in the other are pretty much done and dusted.

Talk to H&Hhunter about Searcy doubles ... he has at least one in 470 NE and by all accounts is very happy with his. I believe he uses his to shoot hogs when he's not gallavanting about Africa terrorising the Buffalo.

Spinner

BigG
July 25, 2007, 07:30 AM
I have a little Baikal that is Over and Under in 308 Winchester. The extractors work well with the rimless shells. The gun was in the $500 range when I bought it around 5 years ago. Very quick handling and 24 inch bbls but because there is no reciprocating action the overall length is like a little carbine. :D

Kimber1911_06238
July 25, 2007, 07:34 AM
Only $12-18,000? And I thought they were just a status symbol. I'll take 4 :neener:

quicktime
July 25, 2007, 08:33 AM
I give up you guys win. I am an evil poser. Pardon me for peeing in the double rifle Kool-Aid. I will go back in to the desert with my handle bar mustache and my gin and tonic and look for my pith helmet I seemed to have dropped on the way to the keyboard.

Kimber1911_06238
July 25, 2007, 08:35 AM
Don't mind my stupid comments....Buy what makes you happy. Hope you look good in a pith helmet ;)

taliv
July 25, 2007, 08:51 AM
they let you carry pink gin around in afghanistan? seems like that would unnecessarily increase your risk over there

BigG
July 25, 2007, 09:04 AM
The double was originally brought out when the alternative was a muzzle loading single. Two bbls are better than one, right? The larger calibers were used in the thick brush for elephants. When breech loading became a possibility the falling block single was the only one that could handle the powerful cartridges for African Big Game. The double was adapted to use the same cartridges. Most repeaters were chambered for comparatively sissy fodder. The bolt action was not considered trustworthy, although the expensive English makers worked over the actions and adapted them to the big cartridges.

The double has the additional favorable quality of having dual firing mechanisms. If one fails you still have another. A magazine rifle does not.

The balance of a double has it all over a repeater, also.

quicktime
July 25, 2007, 09:12 AM
No pink Gin. As a DOD contractor no gin at all totally dry for us. And I look damn sexy in a pith helmet. At least my wife would think so.

Jubjub
July 25, 2007, 10:38 AM
Pedersoli makes the Kodiak, a very pretty hammer double, in 45-70, 9.3x74R, and 8x57JRS.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/ArmiCategoria.aspx?CategoriaId=280&lang=en

The 45-70 is by far the easiest to find. Dixie Gun Works lists them for $3250.

My only experience shooting a double rifle is an Austrian 9.3x74R that belongs to my uncle. The 9.3 is a bruiser of a cartridge, plenty for any game in my neighborhood. Factory specs are a 286 grain bullet at 2360. The loads we fired were the 270 grain Speer at somewhere around that fast.

One thing I learned when shooting it is that you want to shoot the second barrel quickly, especially the first pair. The heat of the first shot takes a couple of seconds to soak all the way through to the outside of the left barrel. When it does so, the barrel expands. The lengthwise expansion warps the whole barrel assembly to the right, pushing the second shot that way a few inches. If you get the second shot off quickly, they group nicely. The effect diminishes as the whole thing heats up after a few shots.

Big Daddy K
July 25, 2007, 10:57 AM
I was on the phone a couple of weeks ago with Remington and was asking about the Spartans. I was told that they would be here in and for 2008. Coming in 30.06 and 45-70. I guess we will see.

Ifin it was under $500.00 I would consider buying one just for the cool factor.
Be a sweet pig gun here in NE Texas.

I saw a coach gun on another site. The guy had 45/70 tubes installed sites and a sling. It looked pretty cool. I'll try and find it.

Big Daddy K
July 25, 2007, 11:04 AM
http://www.hunt101.com/img/500147.JPG

martinc64
July 25, 2007, 11:40 AM
I would like one because I like guns and I don't have one yet.

I still think Quicktime has a valid point. Saying that a double barrel rifle is a status symbol is not the same as saying that anyone who wants one or owns one is some pretentious snob who wants the rifle just to hang it on his wall and point at it.

I can imagine showing a double rifle to the average mall ninja and hearing "Dude, that's nothin' I got an AK!".

If you have a double rifle around people like us then you'd get a different response. My reaction would be "That guy loves rifles and has great taste (and I wonder if he'll let me shoot it?")."

I think that is the status Quicktime meant. Status as someone who loves and knows rifles AND is willing to spend money to get something excellent.

I'd like to just see one someday :what:

quicktime
July 25, 2007, 10:14 PM
martinc64

That is more of the point I was getting at thank you for helping a hillbilly out with his point. I support anyone's right to purchase whatever makes them happy. Without dreams and goals life is pretty mundane. Right now my goal is to get through the next week and see my wife in the good ole U.S.A. Oh yeah and maybe add a new addition to the safe.

Outlaws
July 25, 2007, 10:21 PM
When you said "any custom gun" I thought you were doubting it being built better.

H&Hhunter
July 26, 2007, 12:32 AM
Well ole boy, I guess I can take off my red silk smoking jacket, put down my pink gin and my $50.00 cigar just long enough to have a short word with the ill educated and unwashed masses.;)

I've never considered the "snob" "status symbol" aspect of the double rifle. If I did I guess I'd probably own a nice little Purdy or an H&H royal grade with full embellishment and never take it out or shoot it. But rather show it off during cocktail parties for the rich and famous that I often host in my mansion on the hill.

But I don't and I couldn't if I wanted to because I am not rich by any standards. Rather I work hard and plan accordingly to make my wishes and desires come true. And if I ever do hit the winning lottery number you can damn well bet that my fine English double rifles will have wear marks on them. I use my rifles and I use them hard. I don't really give two craps if you find them to be a status symbol or not. My rifles are tools.

My double rifle is as a pure a working double as can be had. I've always been interested in heavy rifles and Africana of all types. I guess that reading death in the Long grass as a impressionable youth ruined me for life. I've always dreamed of carrying my own double in the field and becoming proficient enough with it to hunt Africa's dangerous game it. We all have dreams and desires I hope that you are all able to make at least few of them come true.:)

Here are a few facts about double rifles whether you desire to own one or not makes no difference in the least, to each his own.

It blows my mind that a man will spend 8-10 grand on an ATV, 15 to 30 grand on a bass boat, 45 G's on a pick up to hunt with all of which are extreme de-valuating goods. Hell you've lost 30% when you drive the thing off the lot. But the double rifle is a status symbol? Excuse me?

A double of any quality and the more desirable and the more expensive the better is one of the few firearms you can own that has historically beaten the markets on a percentage basis from year to year. They are worth more money every year. I paid $7500 for my first Searcy and used it for two years. I traded it on my new rifle and got $8500 on the trade. I paid $9500 for my new rifle two years ago and today as we speak I wouldn't sell it for less than $12,000. Have you got anything in your gun safe that you can say that about?

"Doubles are inaccurate."

There are some older doubles that are inaccurate there are some cheaper doubles that are inaccurate the same can be said for any kind of rifle. But a current modern double rifle is as accurate as any big bore heavy bolt gun built today. I challenge anybody with a heavy iron sighted bolt gun to any game you want to play, off the bench, off the shoulder, stationary, moving, stress, timed, group, you name it I'll go dollar for dollar right now right here just bring money.

You should expect MOA accuracy from each barrel from a modern properly built double. If you can hold it, it will shoot. If it is properly regulated it will shoot each barrel into an inch at 100 yds and they should be 1.5 to 2 inches apart.

I took third place in the world double rifle competition in 2004 with a stock old standard field grade Searcy in .470 NE. Yes Virginia there are rifle competitions for double rifles. And they are a lot of fun with several different disciplines involved including best group at 50 yards and 75 yards from a rest and offhand, best timed group with a reload, 4 round stress fire at 50 yards on a stationary target a moving target and a charging target with a reload:)

No you will not see any double rifles on the thousand yard bench rest line. You won't see any express sighted heavy bolt guns there either. They are not designed for that. Hunting dangerous game is a close range affair. I've killed plains game and hogs past 200 yards with a heavy double. I wouldn't start a fight with a buffalo or an elephant at that range with any rifle. That is just stupid.

"A double will cross at a certain distance." Not always true with todays guns. They are regulated so that they pretty much stay parallel to infinity. Butches guns do anyway. So do some of the newer Blasers and Kreighoffs.

"Doubles have no purpose other than to garner status."

A properly built double is the finest tool on the planet for delivering a heavy blow to a large dangerous animal at close range that has ever been built with hunting in mind. Nothing else can compare to handling and pointing ability of a properly fit and balanced double. It is just like a fine shotgun in that respect. When the feces hits the fan a double that fits you and you are familiar with comes to the shoulder and follows the eye automatically. And it delivers two nearly instantaneous crushing blows that are delivered from a low pressure cartridge that assures easy extraction in the hottest of weather for an easy reload if needed. A good man with a double can get off four shots as fast as a good bolt man can in most circumstances.

Oh and they work as good as anything in this power class at longer range too.

And the primary reason the double was and still is today a desirable platform is that as mentioned above is it's reliability. It is two rifles welded together with two separate firing pins, ejectors ETC. If one fails you've still got a single shooter. That is real handy when you are thousands of miles from a repair facility.


Lighter double rifles are available in many calibers. from .22Lr on up. I was looking at a .30-06 and .303 double just today on the net. I have a friend who has a scoped Chapuis 9.3X74R which is just about equivalent to the .375H&H. He hunts everything with it and commonly kills game out past 300 yards. I've seen these rifle for sale from about $4500 to $5500 depending on the options.

Blaser makes a double in the .30 Blaser rimmed which is just about the equal to a .300 win mag. Many of the older British doubles are in light and medium claibers such as the .30 super rimmed (A rimmed .300H&H) .369 Purdy, .405 Win, .35 Win, 7X57R, ETC.

The Germans have been building light doubles from the start in all kinds of light metric rounds.

As far as cheap double in a easy to find round I am still hoping that Remington will release the Spartan double in .30-06, .308 and .45-70 like they've promised for several years now. they will retail for about $600 USD.

The reason that a regulated double rifle costs so much is that they are built entirely by hand. And the man hours that go into one are astounding.

Remington is trying to get past this with a non regulated barrel set which uses a set screw for regulation. I wouldn't expect that they will be overly accurate or overly dependable. But they should be a fun hog blaster.

To me the double is the ultimate tool for hunting big nasty stuff. there is also a bit of romance and nostalgia heading out into the thick stuff with a finely balanced and personally fit double rifle over your shoulder. It is something I have worked hard to achieve for a long time.

The double rifle holds a mystical spell for some of us.I've known several people who've taken out a loan to buy a historical double to use for their one and only big game hunt. Then sold it when they got home merely to experience what it is like to do it the way it was done in the grand old days of Africa.

While status may be important for some. Most of the real hunters I know who own and shoot doubles do so for an entirely different reason. They love rifles, they love the smell of burning mopani wood and the excitement of closing on a herd of buff or sneaking to within spitting distance from a weathered old elephant bull. They love the smell of burnt gun powder and the rush of adrenalin, the cold sweat, the dry throat and the pounding pulse. They love the feel of figured wood in their hands and the shove of heavy recoil. The terrifying excitement of a blood trail in the long grass and the shrill trumpet of charging herd of cow elephant. being lulled to sleep by lions chuffing out their territorial roars at sundown followed by the erie call of hyenas as they take over the night. The double simply screams all of these things. If none this means anything to you I can't explain it, and I don't apologize for it. This is who we are, plain and simple.:)

Enough I must return to the smoking lounge and continue my negotiations with the other railroad barons. After all we upper class can't appear to accessible... You know.:D;)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/HHandtheBoabab.jpg

A rare picture of a real life communist workers paradise rifle (AK-47) a real one, owned by a real life communist, resting next to an aristocratic snob rifle owned by a real life capitalist.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/Dagatheboys2.jpg

martinc64
July 26, 2007, 01:40 AM
:)H&Hhunter,

Your status just went way up from my point of view...

:)

Really great post!

quicktime
July 26, 2007, 04:01 AM
That's a big tree and a fine looking bufaloe.

Skoghund
July 26, 2007, 09:40 AM
Valmet/ Tikka make a modell 212 over/ under double rifle. Don't think they are over priced. They can be had with shot gun barrels and combi barrels as well. Thinking about it don't CZ make a double rifle?

H&Hhunter
July 26, 2007, 10:52 AM
Really great post!

Martin, Thanks I really appreciate that.:)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's a big tree and a fine looking bufaloe

quicktime,

That tree is a Bao Bab. The amazing thing about a Bao Bab of that size is it was sapling at about the time Christ walked the earth. They live to be thousands of years old.

The Buffalo is the one that almost DIDN'T get away. He was stopped at close range in full charge with my second barrel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Valmet/ Tikka make a modell 212 over/ under double rifle. Don't think they are over priced. They can be had with shot gun barrels and combi barrels as well. Thinking about it don't CZ make a double rifle?

Skoghund,

I completely forgot about Tikka and CZ last night I was thinking traditional SXS only. YES Tikka and CZ both build really affordable O/U double rifles. I think the Tikka is kind of ugly but I've heard they really shoot well.

dagunner
July 26, 2007, 03:52 PM
H&H, I applaud your soul stirring response to spinner's post. I think the ultimate experience in dbl rifle shooting would be to shoot a 4 bore just ONCE.I will never owne a 4 bore, I will probably never even see one in real life,but I would love to shoot one. Any body who does not have at least some afection for the old guns does not appreciate the history of cartridge rifles and what the old safari hunters hand to endure to bag the game they hunted. Todays hunter has it easy with options like hotel rums and gormet food in airconditioned resterants. I have researched African hunts on the net and primitive camps seem to be dificult to find.If I get to go to Africa, I wnt a primitive camp in the grand style of those colerfull old Brits who knew woh to do things right.

Fburgtx
July 26, 2007, 03:57 PM
Download the most recent CDNN catalog. They had a double rifle (30/06) for a very good price. I think it was Russian made. It was less than $500 (I think quite a bit less).

Fburgtx
July 26, 2007, 03:59 PM
P.S. It was over/under, not side by side.....

It's on page 25, EAA (Russian) for $279, 30/06 over/under, walnut stock

LarryS.
July 26, 2007, 04:36 PM
H&H.....
First off let me say I enjoyed reading your response as much as anything I've EVER read on ANY forum. I, too, read most of Capstick in my youth and although I'll never be financially able to hunt Africa, not many magazine covers featuring a Cape Buffalo pic and/or story escape my attention.:eek:
Quite an interesting thread.....:cool:

H&Hhunter
July 26, 2007, 06:54 PM
I have researched African hunts on the net and primitive camps seem to be dificult to find.If I get to go to Africa, I wnt a primitive camp in the grand style of those colerfull old Brits who knew woh to do things right.

dagunner,

The closest I've ever been to old time Africa was with Miombo Safaris in Tanzania in 2002. A brief description;

We flew in a small bush plane for 1.5 hours from Dar Es Salam to a small frontier bush town called Ifkara then took an open land rover for about two hours across some dirt tracks to the Kilombero river where we collected ourselves with a bit of lunch and then sighted in our heavy rifles.

We then boarded an old WW II river patrol boat and set off on an additional 8 hour ride up the Kilombero. All the while viewing elephant, hippo, buffalo, puku, and crocs galore. Not to mention the occasion naked native in a dug out canoe.

The camp was tented with one semi permanent structure that was the communal dinning area it was built from drift wood and thatched grass. During the day we would cruise up the various flood channels in the massive swamp that makes up the Kilombero North safari block it is a million acres or so. We would look for tell tale white egrets flying in the distance which always means either buffalo or elephant. After finding the birds we'd set out on foot never knowing if we were sneaking on a herd of buffalo or elephant until finding the first fresh spoor we would walk/wade between 10 and 14 hours a day. the only time we were on dry ground was between the vast marshes and shallow creeks we had to slog through all day long.

It wasn't uncommon to see between 500 and 1000 buffalo a day not to mention elephants and hippos and crocs.

At night as the sun went down there were three different prides of lion that would all sound off in the distance with their distinctive territorial chuffs. And between the hyenas and hippos there was always something making noise all night long.

On one night I was awoken by a hippos rubbing his rump on the side of my tent. Another night I heard a commotion in the dinning area and shone my flash light on two spotted hyenas searching for scraps in under the table.

I have just completed my South Africa Hunters Association membership and have become a "bonifide" hunter in SA. Which means I can hunt several areas the Kwa Zulu Natal being one of them without a Ph and on my own. You can bet I am going to spend some nights under the acacia thorn with just my rifle and camp fire for company. A friend and I already have a nice long foot safari planned with only trackers and ourselves. I can't wait.

An East African Hurricane tent in the Kilombero
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/africa11.jpg
camp
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/africa10.jpg
Some local ladies on the road to the Kilombero from Ifkara.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/africa6.jpg

phantomak47
July 26, 2007, 06:57 PM
H&H ,

Are you familiar with Craig Boddington's book,"Safari Rifles? What is your general opinion of it?

H&Hhunter
July 26, 2007, 07:00 PM
Phantom,

Anything Craig writes should be considered good information. I am not a fan of his writing from an excitement standpoint. But he is a highly experienced hunter who who is a very technically correct writer.

When ever reading Boddington just keep in mind that he owned and controlled by the various sponsors that support him.

phantomak47
July 26, 2007, 07:43 PM
H&H,

What are some other books that you would recommend about Africa, Safaris and Safari rifles (or just big game rifles and cartridges)? I am halfway through "Safari Rifles" and I think I am hooked, along with the possibility of going on a Safari next year. thanks for all of the info.

H&Hhunter
July 26, 2007, 08:10 PM
Anything from John "Pondoro" Taylor. While dated it is still a fantastic read.

Dave R
July 27, 2007, 12:52 AM
What is the CZ double rifle called? I was looking on the CZ website and couldn't find it.

Skoghund
July 27, 2007, 09:35 AM
In the 2005 Guns Digest they have a CZ589 double rifle in.458. Brno have there modell 300 in double rifle but in 7x65R, 7X57R,8x57JRS. Over and under but cheap, well made and ugly.

BigG
August 14, 2007, 11:12 AM
As far as cheap double in a easy to find round I am still hoping that Remington will release the Spartan double in .30-06, .308 and .45-70 like they've promised for several years now. they will retail for about $600 USD.


If they release the gun it will probably be a clone of my Baikal .308. It is an excellent little rifle, built like a tank and well worth the money.

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