A BEST BUY in Chicagoland: Selling (s)crap metal at a gun turn in


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Templar223
July 25, 2007, 11:37 PM
A “BEST BUY” in Chicagoland


Where else can you turn this...
http://www.gsldefensetraining.com/photos/scrapmetal.jpg

On Saturday, July 21, Chicago held its largest and most generous city-sanctioned gun buy of junk and orphaned firearms. The organizers paid $100 for each firearm, regardless of age, functionality or type. Turn in locations were situated at 23 churches throughout the city.

GUNS SAVE LIFE PARTICIPATED!

Guns Save Life participated in this worthy event, attracted by the offer of $100 pre-paid credit cards for any firearm!

Guns Save Life, also known as Champaign County Rifle Association, is a regional civil rights organization famous for its Burma-style highway signs along highways and interstates throughout Illinois and beyond.

Some of our more talked about slogan sets include:

ROSES ARE RED
MY GUN IS BLUE
I SLEEP SAFE
HOW ABOUT YOU?

GUN CONTROL
IS RACE CONTROL
NOT CRIME CONTROL
AND ITS UNAMERICAN

DIALLED 9-1-1
AND I'M ON HOLD
SURE WISH I HAD
THAT GUN I SOLD


…into a bunch of pre-paid $100 MasterCards.
http://www.gsldefensetraining.com/photos/gunturninsm.jpg


My story.

by John B.

I left Champaign-Urbana at 0530 with 27 guns in my trunk and one on my hip. Given that Chicago Police reportedly now receive one vacation day and a $300 bonus on their paychecks for each gun they confiscate, I was very cautious. Visions of a car accident and subsequent police contact and discovery of the guns in my trunk filled the back of my mind. It would surely earn me the label of "gun runner" and incarceration in the disease-ridden bowels of Chicago’s city jail.

I'm sure the eyeballs first officer to find said guns would be wide with glee:

"Hoo YAH! Cha-CHING, BABY! I just got a month and a half off and a free trip to Aruba!"

I had 23 guns to turn in and didn’t want to take them all in at once as I expected that would raise suspicions. So I decided to visit three or more turn-in locations to “spread” things out. You know, take five or so into each location until I ran out of guns or they ran out of credit cards.

I had a map with turn in locations listed and had planned to be there at 0800, so as not to get there after they ran out of cards (as almost happened to us in Joliet a few years ago when we got there at 0930 or so). I went to the best location proximate to I-90/94 and found myself in the heart of the bad-news ghetto in Chicago. Fortunately, the city’s thugs were sound asleep at this wee hour. I found the door locked at the church and nobody around. Called 311 and found that the event started at 1000.

I killed some time by reconnoitering the second location I planned to transact business with and found a drugstore for a restroom. Returned to location #1 and guardedly read a couple of chapters of “Godless” by Ann Coulter. Towards 1000, there were a lot of folks around looking like they were going to be turning stuff in, so I grabbed two bags (of five) out of the trunk and went to the door at 1000 sharp. Didn’t want them to run out while I’m standing there with a bunch of guns. Didn’t figure they’d take too kindly to me walkin’ out with a bunch of guns in Wal-mart bags (hey, I double bagged them!) if they didn’t have enough cards.

I stood in line there listening to a bunch of hopeless sheep bleat for half an hour. It repulsed me. "I've been blessed," one man said. "When things happen around me, like shooting or people screaming, I don't even look up."

"I figure if something's gonna happen to me, it's gonna happen," he concluded.

Won’t look up if he hears a woman screaming? How pathetic is that?

Now, Chicago officials would probably tell you this program is helping to get guns out of the hands of criminals in one way or another. Well, the average age of the folks waiting in line there was about 60 and I’m not sure anyone there didn’t have at least some gray hair. Heck, tne fella next to me was on oxygen and at least one lady had a cane. These were law-abiding folk. Typically, they were there with a gun that had been in the attic or closet for the last thirty or forty years. They were not criminals or dope slingers who would use a gun to victimize anyone.

Sure, a burglar might have stolen a gun they came across, but do we worry about our cars being stolen and used in crimes that result in good people getting hurt?

You think about those things when you’re standing in the middle of some lousy ghetto in Chicago, disarmed and standing on a sidewalk with two bags full of guns, waiting for them to get around to opening, late.

They finally opened at 1030. They let us in, two at a time. I was first with a real gun... or ten, in this case. Older, but very nice, cop played the gun expert, but it was clear he was no expert. I had to help him show clear on many of the guns as he was painfully slow in his inept effort at opening old wheelguns. After professing an ignorance about guns, I had to pretend to fumble around with the mechanisms. I threw in a few muzzle sweeps for good measure to make it look good. I did keep my finger off the trigger though.

He took all ten, including the starter pistol, as real guns. Yes, a cheap .22 blank pistol that might have been used at a high school track match long ago. Not my problem that he gave us $100 for that pistol. He was just glad and happy I could show him empty cylinders, as he was initially taking about two or more minutes per gun to check them (until I started fumbling and sweeping) and there were lots of folks waiting outside.

They gave me ten credit cards and thanked me profusely, falling all over themselves to tell me what a great thing I was doing and I reciprocated, encouraging them to do it again!. I stuffed the envelopes into my back pocket after folding them.

I noticed that she was pulling the envelopes out of a box which contained an estimated 200 envelopes. ($100 x 200 = $20,000 x 23 locations = About a half-million in support of this program from someone. Looking back, it seems like a pretty fair estimate!) Separate box for the $10 cards for pellet guns and replicas. Similar number of envelopes there.

I left the building in condition orange, watching for any thugs waiting to ambush anyone coming out. The suspicious character watching me carefully with my two bags of guns wasn’t there any longer. Got into the car across the street and was giddy with excitement. I had just sold $10 worth of scrap plus maybe a $50 5-shot .22 "affordable" wheel gun for $1000! It seemed too good to be true!

On to location #2. I was a little worried, since I was a half-hour behind schedule, thanks to the late open at the first church. Still no thug-types on the sidewalks even though it was approaching 1100. I had reconnoitered the location #2 earlier, so it was effortless to find after a few minutes and a single turn. Found a parking spot fairly close to the door.

That was a good thing, because I had nine long guns in two bags, plus another small bag of handguns to go and I was still deep in the rough part of the nation’s murder capital (or close runner up). About forty awkward pounds of rusty (s)crap. I mulled over whether or not to split this into two take-ins (at location #2 and then #3), but decided that based upon my warm reception at location #1, I'd just take them all in.

Oops. One rusty revolver fell out of one of the bags on my way in and skittered across the sidewalk. Ah, crap. I picked it up and palmed it. Whew! Glad nobody saw that.

In I went, greeted warmly. "Whoa! I see you've got some guns!" says the lady at the door. She must have noticed the barrels sticking out of the plastic bag or maybe the rusty clunker in my palm. Clearly, she must have been a detective.

Waited in line, watching "the room". Hot shot young guy was clearing the guns on the table by the door. Very "friendly", but invasive at the same time. Classic "good cop". I’m sure he’d be a good buddy – if you were a fellow cop.

Guns were getting really heavy. I put them down. Whew!

Finally, after the 70-year-old man ahead of me has a pump action bird gun and a single-shot break-open shottie checked, it’s my turn.

I hand the bag with the sawed-off rifle and a pistol or two in it to the hall monitor after asking her ever-so-sweetly if she could hand the bag to the “nice young man” otherwise identified as Hotshot while I dragged forty-plus awkward pounds towards the table. She did, handling it like it had fresh dog feces inside.

"Hey, howya doin'" he greets me. "All these unloaded?"

"I dunno. I think so. I'm not real big on guns." My toes were crossed.

He has trouble getting the guns out of the duct-taped bag. I instinctively reached for my blade, which was not there because its four and a half-inch blade would have landed me in the slammer in disarmed-victim Chicago. Instead, I had my little Spyderco in my pocket (not clipped), but I wasn’t going to let them grab that as its blade was 2 1/2 inches long (also in violation of the 2” rule in Chicago).

“One of you guys got a knife to help him open this up?” I asked.

They all looked at one another like I just asked them for a gold brick or something. Not one of five cops had a blade. How sad.

Finally, some little old lady brings a pair of $1.00 scissors and Hotshot cuts the tape, with some difficulty.

He starts checking them, and notices the rust on his hands from a couple of really choice specimens. You could get tetanus from these if you had any open sores.

"Didja hit a bunch of pawn shops or something?" He asked. "Hey, Benny, come look at these."

Benny comes over and starts sweating me. He's playing "bad cop" in a restrained way. Same questions, only a lot more assertive. "Where'd you get all these? You buy them to bring here?"

They broke me in about as long as it takes in CSI or one of those other cheesy TV cop shows for David Caruso’s character to break down the bad guy’s will.

"Uh. No, they aren't really mine. They belonged to my grandfather and his father. I sold the decent ones and had this stuff in the attic for a long time until I saw you guys were giving $100 cards for any old guns."

Midway through his clearing of the guns, Hotshot motions for me to come closer while he was holding one of the guns.

"Hey, did you know this one was one of our sniper rifles from World War II?" he asked. "See this here," he noted, pointing at the elevation mechanism for the broken rear sight, "this is the windage adjustment."

I think I was able to keep a straight face, but it was really hard.

"Wow. If I'd have known that, I mighta kept that one," I replied. It was a broken down, 60s-era, hardware-store, tubular-fed .22 long rifle pump gun with the tube hanging out of the receiver. I later told this to the guy who donated this gun to the club, and he laughed. "It must have been a one-of-a-kind custom gun!" he said with a hearty laugh.

After showing clear on all thirteen, Benny showed me to the "money table." Similar number of envelopes, only the box was only 2/3 full here. Another woman was busy making notes for each of 13 envelopes and putting labels on the guns. I sashayed over to the other end of the table and had a peek at the "pistol" box. Total junk. Pot metal wheel guns. Maybe a couple of S&Ws, but more likely, just patent-infringement guns from no-name makers. No modern semi-autos.

"Hey you, get over here." Oops, they caught me eyeballing their treasure.

I sheepishly returned.

They gave me the envelopes and watched suspiciously as I verified the count. Gave them a big thumbs up and a smile and turned to leave. It was like they had formed a reception line behind me. Four or five of the women wanted to shake my hand and thank me profusely. Even took my photo with a big shot there. I remembered to stick my middle finger out a lot further than the rest of my fingers while trying to hold a fanned out stack of envelopes for the photo.

Ugh! Got out of there and I ran out of hand sanitizer and baby wipes in the car wiping the funk off my hands.

PLEASE NOTE: Everyone, including the CPD officers were very polite and kind (well, with the exception of ‘Benny’ who was trying to grind me at a “no questions asked” event, but he was still an okay guy). They all meant well, even if they weren’t nearly as proficient in handling firearms as they thought they were.

In my opinion, they should secure some of those “safe zone” pads or maybe old body armor as a safe backstop when handling these very old and possibly malfunction-prone guns (because of rusted firing pins or other issues). They might also do well to ask for firearms aficionados to help to volunteer to show these guns clear, because clearly (pun intended), the folks I witnessed fooling around with these guns were about in over their heads. Of course, it will be a cold day in hell before any of the “noble” class as for help from the peasants in Chicago.

We would like to thank the City of Chicago and George Soros, or whoever underwrote this program for their generosity. We think it will result in a safer society, just not exactly in the way Mayor Daley would have you believe.




EPILOGUE

So, Guns Save Life ended up netting $1700 worth of MasterCards from the event after those who split their donations with the club were “paid” in cards. The club has sold a dozen of its own cards to members for cash.

The last five of the cards are going to be spent at Darrell’s Custom Guns in Cayuga, IN for two CZ bolt-action .22s to be given away to two lucky kids participating in the NRA Youth Shooting Camp coming up over the first weekend in August.

All of the money (and then some) will be spent purchasing ammo for the kids to use during the camp or the rifles. The camp, located in Bloomington at Darnall’s, is the longest running NRA Youth Shooting Camp in the nation.

NRA Youth Shooting Camps teach young people gun safety and safe and responsible firearm use. Kids get a chance to shoot shotguns, rifles, handguns, black powder guns, archery and so much more as instructed by State and/or NRA Certified Instructors (like me) and/or Olympic-level shooting coaches.

I’m proud to say that Guns Save Life is a major supporter of Darnall’s NRA Youth Shooting Camp, donating thousands of dollars in ammunition to shoot, firearms as prizes for the kids, and dozens of volunteers including numerous instructors and staff. I’m quite proud to say that I’m vice-president of the organization and couldn’t be prouder at what we’ve accomplished this last two weeks. We rounded up these guns on short notice, executed our plan to sell them to Chicago and converted the gun sale money into education for young people about the safe and responsible use of firearms.

It’s sweet poetic justice here for Mayor Daley’s CPD Gun Buy.

You accounting wizards have probably figured out that I didn’t turn in the personal defense pieces that I keep in my trunk, especially when going to dangerous places like Cook County. No, I love my Garand. There are many like it, but this one is mine. As is my Beretta.

And they sure weren’t getting the pistol in my fanny pack!

John

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bill larry
July 26, 2007, 12:00 AM
:D I love you.

strat81
July 26, 2007, 12:06 AM
What's that they say about "Unintended Consequences?" ROFLMAO.

I owe you a beer.

MudPuppy
July 26, 2007, 12:09 AM
Stick it to 'em. I'd normally say the money would be best spend on an AR or an AK, but you've got a good cause going. It really is for the children! :)

rugerdude
July 26, 2007, 12:15 AM
Wow....you sir, deserve a medal! Excellent work and the irony couldn't be thicker!

Haha, very nice work.:)

FieroCDSP
July 26, 2007, 01:24 AM
Excellent work. I would have had a hard time keeping a straight face also. Turn in guns for money, to get guns and ammo. Thanks Mayor Daly, for being a moron.

granuale
July 26, 2007, 01:29 AM
Templar, you are my hero. I just found out about thehighroad, and yours was the first post I read. I'll be sticking around.

Scott

GhostlyKarliion
July 26, 2007, 01:48 AM
if you are ever in OK, we can spend a day at the range on me! with all you can eat buffet afterwards!

awesome, and wonderful. keep up the good work!

Nomad, 2nd
July 26, 2007, 02:27 AM
I'm WAITING for a gun buyback near me so I can do the same!

Mauserguy
July 26, 2007, 02:32 AM
How exactly is helping these jokers get "guns off of the street" a good thing? Alright, you walked away with some cash, but a couple of those revolvers looked like they were still functional. You probably could have disposed of them through other chanells without bolstering their turn-in numbers.

Personally, I'd be damned before participating in any program like this, regardless of the circumstances.
Mauserguy

coyote_jr
July 26, 2007, 02:40 AM
Awesome story. Kudos to you.

LadySmith
July 26, 2007, 02:47 AM
Absolutely wonderful. What a great story!

silverlance
July 26, 2007, 02:57 AM
sounds great.

i would have bought that tt-30 /33 for 100$ though =)

kev

igpoobah
July 26, 2007, 07:32 AM
Outstanding, and an entertaining read to be sure.

dfaugh
July 26, 2007, 08:01 AM
Great job!

Better you than me....I could never, ever have kept a straight face!

kingpin008
July 26, 2007, 08:05 AM
I have to agree with Mauserguy - good cause or not, you helped further a perception that these "gun buybacks" do something good. They'll have a press conference soon, and show Joe & Jane taxpayer all the nasty ol' guns they kept off the streets, and Joe & Janie will sigh a great big sigh of relief. Good for those concerned souls, offering money to rid our streets of the menace of guns!

Not trying to be a jerk, but these programs are nothing but gun-grabbery, and in the public eye no less. Sure, you and your fellow gun club members know how much of a trick you pulled on dumb ol' Daley, but to the majority of the public they'll never see that. They'll see the piles of guns that they bought from foolish citizens just like you, and they'll see your smiling faces holding your $100 gift cards, probably funded straight from your own pockets.

kingpin008
July 26, 2007, 08:10 AM
A suggestion - Next time, how about donating all those guns to a gunsmithing school, or to the youth shooting program your group already donates to, in case they have an interest in starting up a gunsmithing program?

Or hell, how about giving/selling 'em to Numrich, so maybe one of us shooters can benefit from the replacement parts? At leas that way they'll have some chance of a useful life, instead of being destined for the junk pile or smelter after the gun-grabbers get through with their little publicity stunt?

Templar223
July 26, 2007, 08:35 AM
To anyone willing to buy them for $100 each.

Of the 23 guns I sold them, maybe five would actually fire. One or two of those if you could find the now obscure cartridges.

Yeah, we'll donate these to Numrich or any gunsmithing school willing to pay $100 each for fifty cents' worth of scrap metal.

Castigate us if you like, but you're selling yourselves short.

And the publicity of doing this...

priceless.

John

Fatelvis
July 26, 2007, 08:37 AM
I loved reading that. Especially because I live outside Chicago, and refuse to live in "Crook" County because of the curruption. You definately should be commended for your "turning trash into treasure" plan, benifiting a pro-gun cause. I hope "Mayor D" read this thread. Good work!

springmom
July 26, 2007, 08:50 AM
Nicely done. If you ever get down to Texas, we'd love to buy you a beer.

(Once again, we need an applause smiley!)

Springmom

AntiqueCollector
July 26, 2007, 08:51 AM
Well, I see your point doing it, but, me personally, I'd of had a blast working through that pile of old guns, getting them to work again (but I certainly wouldn't of paid $100 each either ;)).

Funniest sight I've ever seen, from pictures of these buybacks, was a pile of old revolvers missing their cylinders at one...sure glad those are off the street.:rolleyes:

American_Pit_Bull
July 26, 2007, 08:51 AM
I wouldn't give a Gun Buy-Back event the oldest, non-functioning, worthless firearm that I own...

You are just padding their statistics and helping them tout their so-called success.


You think that you are sticking it to them, but you are helping them more than anything.
They could care less where the money goes; these buy-backs are publicity events and they know it..
So you aren't really sticking it to them, who are you sticking it to??
It's the tax payers that are paying for it.. So if you are sticking it to anyone, you are sticking it to the tax payers.


You can't sway my strong 2A stance for $100...
If you needed $1700 for a kids shooting program, I am sure that you could have raised the money in other ways, rather than by your club supporting a group that is fighting against your rights. I hope the kids are too young to realize this hypocrisy.

kellyj00
July 26, 2007, 08:55 AM
how many firearms did they get?
here's a number on the total count of bb guns...
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070721guns,1,2786884.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

kingpin008
July 26, 2007, 08:59 AM
To anyone willing to buy them for $100 each.

Of the 23 guns I sold them, maybe five would actually fire. One or two of those if you could find the now obscure cartridges.

Yeah, we'll donate these to Numrich or any gunsmithing school willing to pay $100 each for fifty cents' worth of scrap metal.

Castigate us if you like, but you're selling yourselves short.

And the publicity of doing this...

priceless.

So you'd rather pocket a measly $100 than keep guns out of the hands of idiot gun-grabbers who want to strip your rights away? You're really comfortable with saying that?

If so, I don't really know what else to say to you, other than thanks for the stab in the back. But hey, at least you got more than 30 pieces of silver, huh?:rolleyes:

Seriously - You'd knowingly give WORKING guns to anti-gunners, during an anti-gun publicity program? And for profit? AND tell us that you'd rather do that, as long as THEY PAY YOU, than donate them to a school or organization that would use them to teach others about guns in a responsible manner?

Wow.

**EDIT**

And just a few other questions:

Since when are WORKING guns considered "scrap metal"?

Since when are WORKING guns considered "worthless" simply because they're chambered in hard-to-find calibers?

Honestly, I'd like an answer. I'd like to know why it was more important to give these guns to individuals who would happily DESTROY them, than it was for you to donate them to be used as learning tools, or replacement parts for active shooters.

Phelptwan
July 26, 2007, 09:01 AM
That was awesome.

Mr White
July 26, 2007, 09:13 AM
Part of me agrees with those who say that participating in buybacks only pads their numbers but if its 'for the children' I guess I can overlook it. :)

I've often thought of buying a bunch of $80 Mosin Nagants and turning them in at a buyback for $100 and a quick $20/gun, but there are no buybacks in my area. Hell, the local teener baseball league has a gun raffle as a fundraiser. How cool is that. One of the local churches has a 'Day at the Range' as a ministry event. It fills up very quickly an if you don't get tickets at least a month ahead, you don't go. Big cities suck!!!

Knotthead
July 26, 2007, 09:20 AM
Although I can understand the point of view of those of you who are critical of this act, I am still coming down firmly on the "well done" side until you can convince me otherwise. The guy made a mockery of their buyback, publicized it, and then used the proceeds for a worthy cause. I see the benefits well into the plus side, especially if it receives enough publicity.

American_Pit_Bull
July 26, 2007, 09:22 AM
I can see in post #30 of this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=234185&page=2), that you are very active in helping the anti-gunners Illinois.

You should be proud that you state is one of the most restrictive states, in regards to firearm ownership.
Keep giving them ammo against your cause and keep trying to convince yourself that you are sticking it to them.

How much would they have to offer you for you to give up your right to own firearms? (You have already shown that your 2A support can be bought)
At least then you would get your big payoff and only be hurting your own rights, instead of slowly helping to erode everyones rights away.

The more "successful" that these buy-backs are the more that they will try to relate "less guns on the street, less crime" and it will be easier to garner support for anti-gun legislation in the future.


Originally posted by Knotthead:
The guy made a mockery of their buyback, publicized itIf you can show me that they got just as much publicity as the Buy-back received, then I may be inclined to partially agree with you. The buy-back made national news, posting in a few message boards doesn't come close to balancing the scales. Show me an AP release on the failures of the gun buy-back due to the actions of the original poster.

kingpin008
July 26, 2007, 09:23 AM
Think about it this way - By most accounts of those who have participated in Buy-Backs, including the one posted here by Templar223, the vast majority of those turning in guns are older folks, who might have an old revolver or two in the attic, or a few enterprising folks who collect junk guns just for these events.

Nowhere is there any mention of an overwhelming criminal turnout to these things. Sure, they'll come in dribs and drabs, but the crime guns are just not there when it comes down to it. They're being held onto by the criminals that these buybacks are supposed to disarm.

If every single law-abiding individual who has ever turned in a gun to one of these programs had NEVER gone, how long do you think these programs would have lasted?

Not very long at all. Not after the third or fourth disappointing press conference by the anti's in charge, not after the third or fourth time they had to stand in front of all-but-empty tables at their news conferences. It's people like us who are keeping these things going. We try to make a quick buck turning in starter pistols, or capguns, or old busted chunks of rust that were once guns to mess with the anti's who don't know the difference. But WE'RE the ones who keep them in business!

But I guess that's ok - I mean heck, it's like Templar said - why would they bother giving the guns away to companies like Numrich, who will make the parts available to shooters to fix their own guns, or to groups who would teach people how to fix and maintain guns? Much better to just give 'em up, grab that cash and move on. Who cares if they work or not, or whether it's easy to find the ammo anymore, right?

....Right?:banghead:

kingpin008
July 26, 2007, 09:30 AM
Although I can understand the point of view of those of you who are critical of this act, I am still coming down firmly on the "well done" side until you can convince me otherwise. The guy made a mockery of their buyback, publicized it, and then used the proceeds for a worthy cause. I see the benefits well into the plus side, especially if it receives enough publicity.

Unless it can be proven that 100% of the funds for this buyback were provided by private parties and not taxpayer dollars, I can't call this "well done" at all.

The guy made a mockery of their buyback, but getting non-gun owners in a decidedly anti-gun state to understand that will be tough, at best. So that brings us back to square one. He knowingly gave up WORKING guns, but somehow that's ok to him because they're chambered in obscure calibers or maybe not fully functional. And he came right out and stated that those same working guns were "scrap metal", which when you think about it is a pretty damn ANTI way of looking at a working firearm. AND, when it was suggested that he donate or sell the guns to a gun-parts dealer or donate them to a gunsmithing school, he said what amounts to "sure, as long as they'll give me the $100 the gun grabbers did for 'em!"

Not very pro-gun, that.

texas chase
July 26, 2007, 09:43 AM
I have to agree w/ Kingpin and some others. It seems like payback, justice, etc., but you just fed the movement for the anti's.

There are much better ways to raise funds for youth NRA programs.

IMO, I think you just betrayed the integrity of the NRA and the youth programs you are trying to fund. What kind of example are you setting for the kids in those programs you "raised money for"?

I can see why you did it and the motivation behind it, but I think you should have thought this through a little bit more. I feel that this goes against the founding philosophy of THR and should be removed.

fletcher
July 26, 2007, 09:59 AM
Awesome. Now that's tax dollars at work.

waterhouse
July 26, 2007, 10:10 AM
You guys that are bashing him for "helping the antis" seem to be overlooking the fact that they are taking the money raised and buying guns and ammo for a youth shooting program. Nothing helps the antis less than getting more youth interested in the sport and teaching them safe gun handling skills.

I don't care if it is tax dollars or private funds, that is money well spent.

So the antis get to make a press release that says "We took 10,000 guns off the streets." As has been mentioned, very few of those guns were in working order, and not too many belonged to criminals. By that logic, this won't affect the crime rate at all. Now we can say, "look, they took 10,000 guns off the streets, but crime stayed the same. I guess it wasn't the guns that were the problem."

texas chase
July 26, 2007, 10:20 AM
"So the antis get to make a press release that says "We took 10,000 guns off the streets." As has been mentioned, very few of those guns were in working order, and not too many belonged to criminals. "

No offense, but you are missing the point. It doesn't matter if the guns were in working order - the anti's don't know the difference. To them, a gun is a gun. There are probably a lot of collectors, gun schools, amateur gunsmith's, etc., that would love to get their hands on some of those guns. Besides that, he played into the "buy back" program - which helps their cause. It doesn't matter if he raised some funds to help w/ a good cause - he helped a bad cause in doing so.

Please think about this everyone. This was not a noble deed. It may have gotten some money for a good program but in the long run, it feeds the anti movement and betrays our 2A rights.

waterhouse
July 26, 2007, 10:42 AM
No offense, but you are missing the point.

No, I'm not missing the point. I see your point, I just have a differing opinion on the topic.

If an anti gun organization offered you $2 million for your Remington 870, would you turn it down? In matters of principle, the dollar amount should not matter. Think of everything you could do to support gun rights with $2 million. Think of the staff you could hire to write letters to politicians, and the campaign contributions you could make to support pro gun legislators. Think of all the guns you could buy for yourself, which might sound selfish but each new gun you buy supports a firearms manufacturer.

But you would turn down that deal, right? Because it doesn't matter what you do to help so long as you got the money from an anti gun organization buy back program.

but in the long run, it feeds the anti movement and betrays our 2A rights.

No, this is what it may do in the short run. In the LONG run, a youth program (the youth being the future of both the shooting sports and the RKBA fight) is funded and children learn how to shoot and safely handle firearms.

DonP
July 26, 2007, 10:51 AM
I think a lot of you that are vehemently opposed to what Templar did are missing the bigger picture here.

The best way to make these stupid and useless publicity events like gun buy backs stop is to make them look stupid. The one thing people like Daley can't stand is being laughed at and that's what happened here.

Daley, Jackson, Pfleger and the rest of their crew were made laughingstocks.

The best part is they don't even know they were scammed yet, but the word will get out soon enough.

The Tribune LTTE Monday had a letter questioning where the guns came from, who provided the money and asked if they ever really did any "good" since they seem to have one every year.

I'd love to see a bigger chunk of George Soros or the Joyce Foundations money being recycled back into the shooting sports like this with every gun buy back.

My wife even suggested that I start picking some junk guns up for the next one as a smart way to fund my bad habits.

I just have to fight the temptation to fix or restore things like that darn 1901 Hopkins and Allen Overhand my father gave me to get rid of.

You want to stop gun buy backs, take their money and laugh in their face after you cash the check or use the cards.

In fact get some nice pictures of the gun you bought with their money and send it to the newspapers with a caption: "Mayor Richard M. Daley 2007 Commemorative Target Rifle, awarded yearly to teach gun safety and the shooting sports to youth in Illinois."

jlbraun
July 26, 2007, 10:57 AM
If an anti gun organization offered you $2 million for your Remington 870, would you turn it down? In matters of principle, the dollar amount should not matter. Think of everything you could do to support gun rights with $2 million. Think of the staff you could hire to write letters to politicians, and the campaign contributions you could make to support pro gun legislators. Think of all the guns you could buy for yourself, which might sound selfish but each new gun you buy supports a firearms manufacturer.

But you would turn down that deal, right? Because it doesn't matter what you do to help so long as you got the money from an anti gun organization buy back program.

+1, well said.

FuzzyBunny
July 26, 2007, 11:05 AM
Dang, I'm on both sides on this.

Very anti 2A move on your part by allowing them to claim success.

On the other hand

They will track the prepaid card numbers and see some of the cards were used for shooting goodies HAHAHA. It will also start a few more young shooters on a life long hobby.

Also the word will get around on what you did and they will not let you do it again. Remember they took your picture! I'll bet anything that next year your pic will be behind the desk at the next gun buyback and you will have alot more good cop bad cop to deal with.

I dunno. Is doing bad so you can do good, a good thing?

I need more coffee.

FuzzyBunny

NukemJim
July 26, 2007, 11:05 AM
I am confused here. (Not a sarcstic comment, I realy do not understand).

How does particapating in "gun buy back"(GBB)help the anti's?:confused:

Yes some guns were turned in so the antis could claim that the GBB numbers are higher but that will help their cause only if the gun/crime/violence rates decrease after such a buyback.

Does anyone realy want to take that side of the debate? That GBBs will cause a decrease in gun/crime/violence rates? :scrutiny:

On the other hand if GBBS numbers keep going up and then gun/crime/violence rates keep going up then the antis do not have a logical leg to stand on in regards their actions.

I would appreciate any illumination anyone can supply.

NukemJim

jklinstein
July 26, 2007, 11:13 AM
This guy gets cash for non-functioning firearms (or ones without a supply of ammunition) and buys new guns and ammo for a youth marksmanship program and you consider him an anti? How exactly does a non-functioning firearm serve 2nd amendment goals? He's increased the quantity and quality of functioning firearms in private ownership at the expense of either tax $ or a gun-grabber's private donations. He did the right thing.

Someone said he has "already shown that your 2A support can be bought". No, he showed that he can use the system to fund programs to expand 2A support. He did the right thing.

The PR for the program is not an issue. Very few criminals are turning in firearms, so most of these people are disarming themselves. What is it that happens when people are disarmed? This won't cause a decrease in gun violence in Chicago. The stats will show that gun buy-backs correlate to increased gun-violence. He did the right thing.

Waterhouse puts it in right perspective when he asks about selling an 870 for $2 million. He did the right thing.

Instead of bitching about a non-existant problem, do something productive and copy this guy's article to everyone you know. DO THE RIGHT THING.

220_Swift
July 26, 2007, 11:14 AM
I don't see how he helped the anti's one bit. They already lie about the numbers and types of weapons recovered. The past few buy backs, they have shown the same exact "AK47" and "SMG" that they "took off the streets".

Dorryn
July 26, 2007, 11:15 AM
Taking the money out of the hands of Antis is NOT helping them. Sure, theyre going to make up some "convincing" false statistics to support their jingoistic crusade, but they do that anyway. I say strip 'em of their cash any way we can.

I just wish I had some junk guns.

silverlance
July 26, 2007, 11:15 AM
people who are bonking him need to look at this in a more long-term view. those kids he gets to shoot will be MUCH more valuable as voters and citizens in the long run than being able to say for 30 seconds on the radio/tv "hah, nobody wants to participate in your stupid gun buy back".

recently, there was a buy back here in Los Angeles at the first ame. pretty much nobody showed up. they netted I think one crap handgun and an sks. when they interviewed the cop handling it he said, well, if all this gets even ONE gun off the street I'll feel like I've done my job (or soemthing like that)

it was so stupid I was laughing for a while.

he also tried to say that the sks is just as powerful as an AK, but by then the reporter and lost interest and was back to obliquely making fun of the fact that people might be surprised that no one in one of the highest crime neighborhoods in LA wants to turn in their guns.

AJ Dual
July 26, 2007, 11:28 AM
AIIIIGH!

WHY DID NO ONE TELL ME ABOUT THIS!

I would have taken the day off and driven down from Milwaukee! Amongst the good stuff, my grandfather's estate has enough euro-trash revolvers, and (broken, out of time) Iver Johnsons not worth even $25, at $100 a pop, to buy something really nice, maybe a PS90...

I think I'm going to start buying junk/broken guns whenever I see them for a few dollars, and save them in a big box in the corner of my basment for a buy-back like that.

All of you who are bashing him are nothing but keyboard commandos, and are getting off on being hard-cases...

scurtis_34471
July 26, 2007, 11:45 AM
The best way to really stick it to Dailey would be to hold a press conference and explain exactly what you did. That would help point out the stupidity of these gun buy-backs and call into question how much they really accomplish. THAT would be priceless. You'd get the money AND undermine their propaganda.

cracked butt
July 26, 2007, 11:51 AM
Awesome story. You've pulled something off that I've only dreamed of doing.:D

Taking money out of the pockets of foolish antis is good in my book. They will get free publicity through the media whether they do a gun 'buy back' or not.

FieroCDSP
July 26, 2007, 11:53 AM
Look at it this way. Even if he hadn't turned in those guns, they'd be trumpeting the X-number -27 guns as a huge success in the war on gun crime, and how safer the streets will be now that the evil things are off the streets. Even one gun turned in is a success, in their minds.
I also am looking at the bigger picture. Sure, tear the guns down or ship them off to a smithing school, they're still in the hands of people who already like guns. By turning them in, getting a lot more cash than they're worth, and using that money to fund Youth Gun programs is effectively putting guns into the hands of many, many more that will come after us. People who will eventually continue the fight to keep our freedoms.

Isn't that worth contributing to a lie, that everyone knows is a lie, and doesn't do jack squat for the crime rate? Heck, should this post hit the mainstream, it'd make more of a laughing-stock of Daley than anything. I'm tempted to suggest sending it in to Hannity or Rush, just for the exposure, but I'm afraid the grabbers might change the rules to screw up the plan.

Were this a trade in to use the cash for self, I'd be less enthused with it, but if it's "for the children" in the form of a youth program, then I'm all for it. :D

I think there should be a general consensus that anyone that trades a "worthless" gun in should donate the proceeds to a youth shooting program. Would that make those of you entirely against trade-ins happy?

bill larry
July 26, 2007, 11:59 AM
The best way to really stick it to Dailey would be to hold a press conference and explain exactly what you did. That would help point out the stupidity of these gun buy-backs and call into question how much they really accomplish. THAT would be priceless. You'd get the money AND undermine their propaganda.

+1

Or...

Why not submit this very well written post as an editorial to the local papers where you live? Or the New York Times? Or Fox News online...they would run this....

cracked butt
July 26, 2007, 12:04 PM
Shhh! don't give the secrets away.
In most places, they already know know that gun buybacks are a sham. If it makes sheeple in places like Chicago feel good about themselves and allows gun owners to turn junk into gold, why change that?:evil:

coyote_jr
July 26, 2007, 12:13 PM
It probably is just me.....but....

Something about the way this thread turned into a debate over the OP's actions seems a bit contrived to me, I don't know, seems scripted.

It probably is just me, probably another pointless debate.

But it sure turned divisive fast.....:scrutiny:

bsf
July 26, 2007, 12:17 PM
Entrepreneurialism at its finest. :)

zeroskillz
July 26, 2007, 01:07 PM
hmmm I wonder if there's any guns out there I can get for under $100.0
:D

Seriously though, that's awesome. Nice work.

Neo-Luddite
July 26, 2007, 01:12 PM
Templar223--I'll be honest in that I have mixed feelings about cashing in on old junk guns--but that's because they are great learning tools for tinkering, etc. In pragmatic terms I can't but offer high praise for what you did with the money.

Big Calhoun
July 26, 2007, 01:28 PM
Personally, I think this is deserving of a 'atta boy' and a few rounds of scotch. On principle, I can understand the arguments that have been presented. But in a practical light, this is dang funny! OP should put this on Delicious or Digg for added publicity.

Good job, imo!

230RN
July 26, 2007, 02:05 PM
I'm with the crowd who says "stick it to 'em."

If they want to give me money for old junkers, so be it.

I do not see any reason to not do so... the thought that you are "helping" the anti-crowd seems like a b i i i g stretch --regardless of the dispostion of the funds received.

What does bother me is the thought that perhaps some very good guns are being disposed of in this way. Who knows if there were a couple of Parker shotguns or whatever in the mix?

The other thing that bothers me is how this can be legal under the terrific burden of firearms laws we are all supposed to live under.

Did Hizzoner just wave his Magic Scepter and "proclaim" that all this was legal?

RuffRidr
July 26, 2007, 02:25 PM
I agree with Big Calhoun. The more publicity this gets, the better. Sites like Digg, Reddit, Fark, and Del.icio.us will get more eyes looking at this. Also, crossposting to other forums wouldn't be a bad idea.

--RuffRidr

rugerdude
July 26, 2007, 02:28 PM
Let's see. You could have given your broken, crappy, rusted pieces of junk to smithing schools so that someone could fix what was crap to begin with, OR sold them off for far more than they are worth to get nice, working guns in the hands of the people who are the future. Allt he while taking money from the other side.

You did the right thing. I just don't see the logic behind those who think you did wrong by out-foxing the antis. You got their money, and you got new guns in the hands of youths who will be shooting them in a safe, supervised manner.

I seriously think you should look into getting local or national news publicity out of this provided you didn't break some sort of obscure law.

Once again, very nice work. I'd take a high quality working rifle over a crappy, broken pistol that I couldn't find ammo for anyway (and I think those youth shooters would agree).

ArmedBear
July 26, 2007, 02:31 PM
"Don't kill a dream, save a life?"

Uh, if someone breaks into my house and is dreaming of, say, raping my wife or something, I think it'd be okay to kill that dream.

SeanSw
July 26, 2007, 03:09 PM
I really ought to become involved with the Champaign County Rifle association. The club I shoot at has a lot of memberships but I have met a few crotchety old men in camo socks who gave me the Nth degree because "We haven't seen you around here before". They made my afternoon uncomfortable and I would have packed up if that wasn't exactly what they wanted. Generally the other members I met were friendly and supportive, but it's always the bad apples....

I support these actions because the end result will be helping to increase the education and public perception of 2A rights. Like the Antis say, it's for the children. So lets give the kid a gun and teach him to use the real tool, the one between his ears, in the best way possible.

bsf
July 26, 2007, 03:27 PM
I actually think broad dispersal of this little success is a bad idea. I would like to see more, many more, people do this if it did not subject them to undue risk. Why ruin a good thing?

Templar223
July 26, 2007, 03:30 PM
Since when are WORKING guns considered "scrap metal"?

Sure, some of the guns would "work". Safe to shoot? I wouldn't want to try it with modern ammunition.

Others were so badly rusted that while they might have shot...

One break-open Western Auto shotgun was missing the forearm. Yeah, I could have sunk $30 or more into a new forearm. But then what would I have? It would have been a beat-up 20 ga worth about $50. So I sold it. If I develop an affinity for a 20-gauge break open, I'll just buy a new one. I don't see that happening any time soon.

Many of the 'better' guns (and I use that term loosely) were gutted for internal parts.

Yes, one wheelgun, a five-shot RG .22 revolver, was probably the best one turned in. Again, I'll trade $50 guns for $100 cash any day of the week.


No offense, but you are missing the point. It doesn't matter if the guns were in working order - the anti's don't know the difference. To them, a gun is a gun. There are probably a lot of collectors, gun schools, amateur gunsmith's, etc., that would love to get their hands on some of those guns. Besides that, he played into the "buy back" program - which helps their cause.

Bravo sierra on several layers.

I strongly dispute your fundamental assumption that a turn-in helps those opposed to the right of self-defense. How does a turn-in "help" the hoplophobes? Hmm?

Collectors, schools, etc.? Oh, save the drama. Why would anyone want to work on a gun that is unsafe to shoot?

Why don't some of you absolutists put your checkbooks where your mouths are and step up to the plate. You tell me how many clunkers you want to buy for $100 each and I'll tell you how many checks to bring. You can then donate them to a school or keep it all quiet so we don't "help their cause."

The response by some of the people on this forum makes me ill!

John

Bubbles
July 26, 2007, 03:40 PM
Just a thought - those buy-backs end for the day when they run out of debit cards. By turning in those junkers he may have saved a decent-quality firearm from the smelter.

Templar223
July 26, 2007, 03:40 PM
I can see in post #30 of this thread, that you are very active in helping the anti-gunners Illinois.

I plead guilty as charged.

If you consider taking money off their hands as "helping" those opposed to self-defense, then I am guilty as charged. And yes, I'm active. Over 3000 times in the last ten years or so.

Diverting resources from our opponents and using those resources to further our cause is the kind of HELP I'd like to give them on a regular basis.

If you don't agree with me, fine. That's your problem, not mine.

John

TT
July 26, 2007, 03:52 PM
Pretty sweet Templar. Bravo. :)

elrod
July 26, 2007, 04:07 PM
Bravo to you, Templar. How many of your critics make a habit of donating their old guns and broken pieces to "gunsmithing schools" to teach new 'smiths how to work on junk guns???:confused: More power to you. :neener:

Horsesense
July 26, 2007, 04:08 PM
Some of you are so heavenly minded that you are no earthly good.

I like what he is doing more than what I am not doing.

Correia
July 26, 2007, 04:18 PM
If so, I don't really know what else to say to you, other than thanks for the stab in the back. But hey, at least you got more than 30 pieces of silver, huh? :scrutiny: Where's Captain Hyperbole when you need him.

Donate an RG to a gunsmithing school? Is there a lot of business in fixing RGs? Give me a break...

The OP took money from the antis, and accomplished good with it. Sounds like Robin Hood to me.

Bulking up their stats? Heck, they make up their stats anyway.

I say good job.

illspirit
July 26, 2007, 04:20 PM
Excellent work Templar. :)

I don't see how this is helping the antis as some have said. Yea, short term, they get to brag about X number of guns "taken of the street." But if more people did this more often and documented it, we could turn the tables on the grabbers.

Just imagine if every time they had a press conference to announce another "successful buy-back," a gun rights group had one an hour later detailing just how much of what they got was scrap metal. Not only would this expose the myth that they're taking guns out of the hands of criminals or whatever, but the antis would feel rather silly that they've essentially become a gun rights fundraiser. :neener:

Sistema1927
July 26, 2007, 04:24 PM
Templar223,

My main concern is the risk that you took. What would have happened if you had been pulled over for a traffic stop in Mayor Dailey's fiefdom prior to unloading the junk on those clowns? Would you have incurred a felony rap?

Bazooka Joe71
July 26, 2007, 04:32 PM
You're my hero.:D

Great story, thanks for sharing it.


One question...You had a gun in your "fanny pack" while talking to the police officers? You sir, are a crazy SOB :D

mata777
July 26, 2007, 05:05 PM
I also took junk to this buy back and by no means am I an anti. I figured that if they wanted to play this game of giving $100.00 for guns that I had that were rusted shut and did not function, I would take advantage of the situation. Deep down inside them they know that we (gun owners) used the city of chicago to dispose of junk. All those tec 9's and the poly ak-47 seen on tv were in cpd's vault for months before they planned this. +1 for the police officers in this event being clueless about firearms (this is very scary if you sit down and think about it).

Templar223
July 26, 2007, 05:18 PM
My main concern is the risk that you took. What would have happened if you had been pulled over for a traffic stop in Mayor Dailey's fiefdom prior to unloading the junk on those clowns? Would you have incurred a felony rap?

They could charge me with attempted murder, but I transported the firearms, each and every one of them, lawfully.

As a non-resident, I was covered as I was on my way to shoot at the range in Gurnee. :)

Just had to make a couple of stops on the way to turn in those evil guns.

Trust me, I not risking a felony rap.

John

whitetiger7654
July 26, 2007, 05:26 PM
Can you tell us how you got all those junk guns so we can do this in our towns as well. I being a college student could use extra cash this seems to be a quick and easy way.

The Deer Hunter
July 26, 2007, 05:35 PM
Thats awsome. I bet that is the only time the gun "buyback" program has helped prevent kids shooting other kids.

:)

Templar223
July 26, 2007, 05:52 PM
Can you tell us how you got all those junk guns


They came from old gunsmiths who usually have a bucket with inoperable guns, or guns that have been damaged in residential fires and are now all rusted and FUBARd. They also came from our members who have had these guns in the backs of their safes for gazillions of years.

John

American_Pit_Bull
July 26, 2007, 06:01 PM
Well, lets see... The OP stated that the gun buyback was city funded, so the only funds diverted were the funds from the tax payers' pockets and into a worthless program.

The Big Picture is that he helped their cause. Their goal was met and touted due to actions like the OP. The superficial picture was the sophomoric instant gratification of sticking it to the man.

In the realm of politics, instant gratification is worthless. Devote you time and effort towards your own cause, seeking longterm results.

Templar223
July 26, 2007, 06:18 PM
Well, lets see... The OP stated that the gun buyback was city funded,

Nowhere in my OP did it say the program was city funded.

Reading is fundamental.

In fact, in none of the literature was a sponsor listed.

I said thanks to "Mayor Daley" for the city cop participation (not likely done on a volunteer basis). The cards were made possible by a corporate sponsor.

But you do have a point: you probably contributed to the cards somewhere along the line.

Since you're clearly of superior intellect, why don't you share with us how I 'helped' the cause of gun buybacks.

By the way, what have YOU done for the cause lately, hmm?

John


Yeah, I helped them hit their goal. I hope they do it again! I'll help them even more with more than a two-week notice! We're planning on making it a five-figure take at the next one of these. And hopefully, not being too bright, they'll continue to buy our junk at outrageous prices!

Larry Ashcraft
July 26, 2007, 06:25 PM
Corriea said what was on my mind.

They make up their stats anyway, so it makes no difference if we help them. And those worried about the guns being melted down; They were junk, and they make new ones everyday. Who know, maybe some of the steel from the scrap pile will end up at S&W or Ruger. :)

Good on you.

Vodka7
July 26, 2007, 06:25 PM
the only funds diverted were the funds from the tax payers' pockets and into a worthless program.

Even if I agreed that selling crappy guns at a profit to an anti-RKBA organization was a bad thing (and I most definitely do not agree), this wasn't a program that lasted forever. This was a program that was funded with $X dollars, and when they ran out of gift cards, the program ended. So where would you have that already earmarked money go? To the average Joe who's selling a working gun that he doesn't have a need for? Or to someone who's going to take advantage of a stupid program and divert that money to pro-2A uses?

Templar, what you did was brilliant. I hope you well-written story gets the publicity it deserves.

Ian
July 26, 2007, 06:56 PM
Templar, you are The Man. :D

realityscope
July 26, 2007, 07:25 PM
The Press release after the GBB would have been the same if they collected 50 guns or 50,000...i see it as he played them like the fools they are and funded a youth program teaching kids about guns which is a very positive thing as they are the future, not the anti's

Blue .45
July 26, 2007, 08:04 PM
I live in the Chicago area. While visiting a couple of my local gun shops, I heard a number of people talking about selling their junk guns at the "buy back", in order to fund a new gun. It wouldn't surprise me if some actually did buy junk from a pawn shop and sell it to the city for a profit.

waterhouse
July 26, 2007, 08:26 PM
In the realm of politics, instant gratification is worthless. Devote you time and effort towards your own cause, seeking longterm results.

He did seek longterm results. He is using the funds to teach young people how to shoot and safely handle firearms. It doesn't get any more long term than teaching young people.

Mr Weebles
July 26, 2007, 08:43 PM
So you'd rather pocket a measly $100 than keep guns out of the hands of idiot gun-grabbers who want to strip your rights away? You're really comfortable with saying that?

If so, I don't really know what else to say to you, other than thanks for the stab in the back. But hey, at least you got more than 30 pieces of silver, huh?

Seriously - You'd knowingly give WORKING guns to anti-gunners, during an anti-gun publicity program? And for profit? AND tell us that you'd rather do that, as long as THEY PAY YOU, than donate them to a school or organization that would use them to teach others about guns in a responsible manner?

I kind of understand your point, but the money these gun-grabbers shelled out will go to a program that will educate the next generation of responsible, lawful firearms owners.

Each of those kids will hopefully grow up and continue the fight for the 2nd Amendment.

Sure, the gun-grabbers will get a little publicity for removing "dangerous guns" from the street but in the long run they've accomplished nothing. At the same time they've contributed (albeit unwittingly) to the very folks who they disdain.

It's a win-win.

Justin
July 26, 2007, 08:53 PM
I have to agree that what Templar did is a good thing. Taking the money and using it to fund a youth program is so deviously subversive.

I find it sad that some of you can't appreciate the sheer brilliance of what he did.

offthepaper
July 26, 2007, 09:07 PM
In the realm of politics, instant gratification is worthless. Devote you time and effort towards your own cause, seeking longterm results
--------------------------------------------------------

Think about it for a minute.
At the end of the day, Templar succeded in helping fund youth shooting sports. That's the seeds of the future, the ones who will one day continue the fight for RKBA, if properly introduced to the sport/cause.
If these programs were'nt aggressivly nurtured and funded, to instill the value of these precious rights given to us at birth, what do you think would happen to 2A rights in the next 50 years?
I'm not trying to flame anyone's position here, but the reality is that Templars actions did much more to help 2A than it hurt it.

Templar,
You did a rightous thing.
My respects.

Tom Servo
July 26, 2007, 09:08 PM
Templar, you are now my personal hero. Not only for swindling a stupid program, but for turning the result into something useful.

Thing is, there are a coupla guns in that picture I could have cleaned up and taken off your hands :)

the pistolero
July 26, 2007, 09:27 PM
Templar, that was just jaw-droppingly brilliant, not to mention a pretty good read, too. You're my hero. :D

Blackbeard
July 26, 2007, 09:31 PM
I think if an Anti read Templar223's post, he'd tell his anti buddies that Dayley sold out the anti movement by funding the 2A crowd. Yes, I don't like helping the anti's in any way, but I think Templar's actions fall on the pro-2A side of the fence. $2300 less for the anti's to use against us.

I just wish you'd mentioned on your way out the door that you're going to go buy an assault weapon with your proceeds.

Blackbeard
July 26, 2007, 09:34 PM
Plus, since as Templar noted they had a limited supply of the $100 cards, they may have run out before all guns were turned in, thus his actions kept more working guns out of the city's hands!

JeffKnox
July 26, 2007, 10:10 PM
I can't believe anyone is bashing you for this.
It seems that they place the same kind of mystical significance on guns that the anti's do. Guns are just carved metal. The anti's are going to get the same publicity and make the same claims of success regardless. And while they're ineffectively taking pieces of scrap metal off of the streets, you are effectively taking money out of their hands. This is an absolutely positive thing and those of you who have a problem with it are over complicating the whole thing. You guys need to go to the NRA list of anti-gun businesses and celebrities and make sure that you absolutely never ever do business with them or go to their movies or watch them on TV... There are plenty of things we all do every day that could somehow be construed to be helping the opposition. You guys are trying to be the Vegans of the gun rights movement and it's just not realistic. Selling a worthless piece of junk for $100 of the anti's money - even if it is from the stupid taxpayers who elect these Bozo's - is a good deal, period.
When I was in college I lived at one gun shop and worked at another. We'd get all manner of junk in the door and the guys from the Yavapai College gunsmithing program and I would pick through it and give the boss 5 or 10 bucks for a box of the stuff now and then. For $10 and some elbow grease I could sometimes produce a couple of decent little .22 bolt guns that I'd sell on consignment for $30 or $40 bucks, but the pistols generally weren't worth even trying to work on; they were just to dangerous. And even with a school full of gunsmithing students regularly prowling through the junk boxes, there were always boxes and piles of stuff that simply wasn't worth fooling with - just scrap. Dealer's have to account for any piece of junk that was ever a gun that comes into their store. They can't sell them for scrap or throw them away and Numerich and the gunsmithing schools don't want that stuff, gun buyback programs are wonderful - until they figure out that they're funding our habit.
My one complaint with GBB's is that they don't make any effort to run any serial numbers or save the few good - and sometimes potentially historic - guns that they get. I'd like to see a law that requires an NCIC check on all of those guns and if they turn up as stolen, they be returned to their rightful owners. I have visions of the 3" Thunderer that was stolen from me years ago finding its way into one of those buy back boxes and going to the smelter.
Good work John! Take em for all you can get.
Jeff

Gator
July 26, 2007, 10:44 PM
Yes, great job!

Guns are tools; tools wear out. I see nothing wrong in getting rid of old worthless guns and replacing them with new ones, and doing so at the expense of the gun grabbers is sweet, sweet irony. :D

kungfuhippie
July 26, 2007, 11:26 PM
I don't think the buy back programs are good. But I do think taking their money away is good.
I must give this more thought.

Preacherman
July 27, 2007, 03:23 AM
Templar, great, GREAT job! I'm with you all the way on this one. I'd try to do the same where I live . . . but round here the cops would:

1. Laugh in the face of anyone wanting to take guns away from people;

2. Offer to provide a gun to a citizen who needed one in a hurry;

3. Make a note in their Little Black Books of any individual or location trying to sponsor such an effort (for future reference, you know).

:evil::D

.cheese.
July 27, 2007, 04:41 AM
And he came right out and stated that those same working guns were "scrap metal", which when you think about it is a pretty damn ANTI way of looking at a working firearm.

Guns are nothing more than the sum of their parts. They're metal and/or plastic and/or wood. My screwdriver set is metal and plastic.... while it works as a screw-driver it's a tool.... but ultimately it's metal and plastic.

Guns are tools too.

Don't get me wrong. I like having my guns as tools..... but I'm not going to lose sight of the fact that they're just tools... and ultimately metal and/or plastic.

American_Pit_Bull
July 27, 2007, 08:15 AM
OK... So they make up the numbers any ways and the money is going to a good cause...

Tell me this. Will you help pad their fictional numbers if Hilary introduces a petition for a national AWB and offers you $20 per signature in favor of the ban?

Sure, no one else will pay you $20 for your signature and they will probably end up padding the results any ways, so why not sign up your entire gun club and go down and support the antis... Afterall, you will put their money back into the club's activities, so it will balance out in the end...

Wait until next year when Chicago's murder rate drops by 2% due to natural fluctuation in crime stats, but the 15,000 guns off of the street due to the buyback will be the only thing to make the headlines. Less guns = Less crime will be further pushed on the public and the more stats that they can throw at middle-of-the-road non-gun owners, the more they can garner their support.

Even if my scenario is reaching and even if helping them pad their numbers and supporting "less guns = less crime" initiatives doesn't matter to you; I would not participate. Our angle, as gun owners, would never be seen in the publics eyes'..

If there was a national gun buyback day and thousands of gun owners could actually be heard and shown turning in junk handguns for cash toward new handguns and shooting programs, that would have an effect. It would show the idiocy of their campaign. Otherwise it is a mouse fart in a crowded hallway and I wouldn't participate purely on principle.

repsychler
July 27, 2007, 08:33 AM
Let me see here...I can either praise Templar for taking the anti's money and funding a youth shooting program...
...Or I can make up some make up some wild fantasy situation that didn't happen and berate him for actually doing something for the cause.

Huh.

WiscTJK
July 27, 2007, 08:56 AM
Sheer brilliance John.

What a great idea. Great use of the proceeds as well!

Dave Markowitz
July 27, 2007, 09:24 AM
IMHO, Templar223's actions benefitted our cause far more than it helped the gun grabbers'.

Yeah, he helped them pad their numbers. BFD. Most of their numbers are made up anyway.

However, he:

(a) helped use up the supply of Master Cards, possibly dissuading someone from turning in a functional gun,

(b) raised enough cash to purchase two high quality .22 rifles to be used for training new shooters. Helping to create new shooters has far more value than any 20 guns put together.

(c) if we publicize this (I will be blogging it), we make the gun grabbers look stupid.

Well done, sir!

offthepaper
July 27, 2007, 11:42 AM
Let me see here...I can either praise Templar for taking the anti's money and funding a youth shooting program...
...Or I can make up some make up some wild fantasy situation that didn't happen and berate him for actually doing something for the cause
-----------------------------------------------------

'bout the size of it. :neener:

Correia
July 27, 2007, 12:07 PM
...Or I can make up some make up some wild fantasy situation that didn't happen and berate him for actually doing something for the cause.


This is the internet afterall, where we should never let reality get in the way of idelogical purity. :D

Justin
July 27, 2007, 12:12 PM
Correia, why are you so anti-gun? You know you're just encouraging them. Next thing you know, Barbara Boxer will show up on my doorstep, expecting me to hand them over, and it will BE YOUR FAULT!

:p

Templar223
July 27, 2007, 12:25 PM
Thanks guys for your support and encouragement.

John

DonP
July 27, 2007, 01:07 PM
Good job John.

I'm in Will County and belong to the ISRA Will County Grass Roots organization. I'm a big fan of anything that makes Daley, Pfleger, Jackson et. al. look silly.

I'm sure those ministers and/or the cops all had FFL's and FOID cards when they took delivery of those guns. So I'm sure these well meaning events wouldn't be breaking any state or federal laws with these events.

I wonder if you and I could do the same thing at a rest stop somewhere along I-57? You know, exchange some old guns in return for the equivalent of cash with no ID or questions asked? Do you think Rod, Daley or the BATFE would mind?

slow944
July 27, 2007, 02:17 PM
Dude you are the man!! I'll raise a Guiness to your health.

ilcylic
July 27, 2007, 11:51 PM
If selling a gun to the highest bidder is the mark of an anti-, then every gun shop known to man is in fierce competition to be our worst enemy.

But, of course it isn't.

Good work Templar.

I, and the giant barrels of hopelessly broken rusted out gun shaped scrap metal at my favorite gun store, eagerly await such an event in my local jurisdiction.

Dr.Who
July 28, 2007, 12:05 AM
Kudos, to you.... I was very amussed and thankful that you stuck it to Chicago......

Blackbeard
July 28, 2007, 12:18 AM
If there was a national gun buyback day and thousands of gun owners could actually be heard and shown turning in junk handguns for cash toward new handguns and shooting programs, that would have an effect. It would show the idiocy of their campaign. Otherwise it is a mouse fart in a crowded hallway and I wouldn't participate purely on principle.

Interesting idea there. Next time, Templar, call a reporter. Tell her what you're doing. See if you can get interviewed and make it known that you're buying working guns with the money from trading in your non-working guns.

10 Ring Tao
July 28, 2007, 01:15 AM
Great job, I'd love to see some kind of media response to this.

FYI, tetanus has nothing to do with rust.

Templar223
July 28, 2007, 11:11 AM
Interesting idea there. Next time, Templar, call a reporter.

Already did. Chicago Sun Times is working on a story about it but seems to be waffling on whether or not to run it. So I posted the story online.

FYI, tetanus has nothing to do with rust.

LOL. Yeah, I know. The reference was made more in humorous jest than seriousness.

John

Paul Vallandigham
July 28, 2007, 11:59 AM
Kingpin: You missed the point of the exercise. It was not the turning in of the junk and scrap we gathered from gunsmiths, and members. If you saw the rust on all the stuff Templar Took to Chicago, you would be embarrassed to suggest anything of use was left on anything of value.

When Templar says some of these were functional, that only means that you could actually open and close the rusted actions. If the action " worked " the brrrel was full of rust, and prbably dangerous to shoot.

Every gun shop has " Stuff " like this that has no value either for spare parts or for reconstruction into a gun. You would have to spend $200 + to have some of the barrels bored out and relined to have any kind of accuracy. The actions would need major work, and many springs and other parts replaced, so that you would be spending far more than it would cost to buy a new gun that shot twice as good. Most of what he had did not have stocks attached. They were barreled actions, and some were just down right dangerous to contemplate shooting. NO GUNSMITH is going to throw away anything he can use, or sell. This junk met tht test.

We did have a member show up with an old Mossberg rifle that was full of dust, and rust, but otherwise had a good barrel, and action. it was missing a sight hood. We told him to clean it up, and I offered to refinish the stock and reblue the barrel if he wanted to donate it to the club to auction off so we could raise money, if he really didn't want the gun. He's thinking about it.

The point of the exercise was to take money from the anti-gun forces of evil, and use their money to promote the shooting sports. If you want to find us a quick $1700.00 we would gladly accept your donation, and use the money for a worthy cause.

We also proved conclusively that the people involved in these Buy Back programs don't know a thing about guns, including the police who are there to check to make sure the guns are not loaded. These programs operate purely on emotion, and not facts. When you confront these people with facts, they shut up and go away.

( And that includes the cops. Its very understandable that cops want a monopoly on force when on the streets. They are a target just sitting in their squadcars, or walking down the street in their uniforms. They can be attacked at any time, from any direction. But, if cops think about it, they soon realize that any " back up " of other officers is minutes away, while if you work in a jurisdiction that does not disarm the good guys, you have the possibility of help from the good guys in a matter of seconds. If officers would go out and shoot with civilians on public ranges, or open their police ranges to citizens to receive instruction and practice, they would not only know who the good guys are, but would know who they can count on for help. That is what gives Law enforcement its true power- not a monopoly on force.)

akodo
July 28, 2007, 12:42 PM
I got mixed feelings on this.

For one side, if gunstore A is selling jennings duce duce pistols for $50, and there is a buyback for $100, i'd buy them all and turn them in. Yes, the numbers would be inflated, but the gunstore gets rid of crap and helps them stay solvent, then I turn around and buy good guns with that money, so funds that would never have gone to a gunmaker is getting redirected there.

But on the other hand, say, buying $80 mosin-nagants to turn in for $100, well, there are a limited number of these historic guns. How often have people looked for surplus guns that were common and cheap 30 years ago, but nearly impossible to find nowadays?

As far as turning over the guns to a gunsmith school. Here's what you do. You buy a $20 junk gun, turn it in for 100$, take that 80$ profit, go buy 4 more junk guns when there is no turnin, and donate them! If you have two broken guns, worth $50 each, turn em in, get your $200. Next time you get cheap broke guns taht wouldn't normally pay to fix them, break out that $200 and 'fix em for free!"

barkingowl
July 28, 2007, 01:55 PM
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-6/29571/appl.gif

Templar223
July 29, 2007, 12:43 PM
As far as turning over the guns to a gunsmith school. Here's what you do. You buy a $20 junk gun, turn it in for 100$, take that 80$ profit, go buy 4 more junk guns when there is no turnin, and donate them! If you have two broken guns, worth $50 each, turn em in, get your $200. Next time you get cheap broke guns taht wouldn't normally pay to fix them, break out that $200 and 'fix em for free!"


I like akodo's line of thinking. Even if it does seem like a lot of work.

John

larry_minn
July 29, 2007, 03:57 PM
Esp when he posts story/tries to get local/state/National papers to run story. Some people might actually understand the stupididty of (Gun buy programs) "never owned them so can't be a buy back"

I have alwasys wanted to make a dozen "zip guns" and turn them in for cash. $3 at hardware store and $100 at stupicity buy point.

BBQJOE
July 29, 2007, 06:12 PM
Great story!!

tinygnat219
July 29, 2007, 07:20 PM
Interesting.

I'd see about doing an interview for the local paper about how useless the program was, and then give them an inventory of what was given and the condition they were in. :evil:

Cellar Dweller
July 29, 2007, 08:59 PM
"Over 6000" guns + 745 BB/replicas in 6 hours (10am-4pm) at "over 20 locations" (let's assume 25) plus they ran out of Mastercards (so less than 6 hours) = 45 widgets processed PER HOUR at each location...pretty efficient for only admitting 2 at a time and having professionals inspect each and every widget.

I'll bet the AKs and Tec-9s were ready for photography before the event started. :scrutiny:

I'll bet the numbers were already crunched and the press releases written before the event started as well. :uhoh:

I'll not bet on this, but if NOBODY SHOWED the photos and PR pieces would read the same. 5 or 10 years ago, buyback "success" might have passed without question...now, there's the slightest element of doubt.

silverlance
July 30, 2007, 12:32 PM
hey where are you guys seeing crap guns? I like crap guns. I even bought a suit of body armor and a full face shield just to work on dangerously beat up guns.

you ought to see some of the rifles I've reassembled from rust buckets.

PILMAN
July 30, 2007, 12:59 PM
I wonder how many criminals will turn in their guns?

Templar223
July 30, 2007, 01:49 PM
hey where are you guys seeing crap guns? I like crap guns. I even bought a suit of body armor and a full face shield just to work on dangerously beat up guns.

you ought to see some of the rifles I've reassembled from rust buckets.

It's a dirty job but someone has to do it, right?

The treasurer for Guns Save Life told me this morning that he talked with a member from Danville who turned in 20 guns during the "buy" as well. Good for him. He's planning on using the cards for misc. purchases between now and December when the cards expire.

John

novaDAK
August 5, 2007, 04:01 PM
I've often thought of buying a bunch of $80 Mosin Nagants and turning them in at a buyback for $100 and a quick $20/gun, but there are no buybacks in my area.
Please don't. I know a lot of people would like to buy a Mosin for 80 bucks and have a real shooter than sell it to their buy-out and have them destroyed...because you KNOW that's the fate of guns that are 'bought back'. :mad::cuss::fire:

tinygnat219
August 5, 2007, 04:28 PM
Templar223,

Where are you finding these junk guns? I wouldn't mind building up a junk arsenal to have around for when one of these gun buybacks hits VA.

Thanks!

Finch
August 5, 2007, 05:14 PM
This story brought tears to my eyes.... very beautiful!

Templar223
August 6, 2007, 12:29 PM
Part I: Kids shooting at the NRA Youth Camp!
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=293712

Part II: Awarding the guns... pics of winners!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=293971 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=293971)

Bullseye57
August 6, 2007, 05:21 PM
Someone should forward these links to someone like Neal Boortz, I'll bet he'd get a lot of mileage out of a story like this. The free publicity would definitely help the 2A movement and point out the folly of gun buy-back programs. The irony here alone is worth the time I spent reading the whole story.

Thanks for the good read. Very well done!

R,
Bullseye

http://guntalk-online.com/images/guntalk_logo_sm.jpg (http://guntalk-online.com/forum/index.php)

Templar223
August 6, 2007, 07:45 PM
Good idea Bullseye.

Done.

J

Bullseye57
August 7, 2007, 12:20 AM
Templar,

You may also want to email them with your contact information, they may want to verify the particulars of this story before they run with it. If you don't want them to say your name, they won't, but at least they'll have a verifiable source to prove the story is real and not a hoax. I'll bet he will say something, he loves to point out the folly of liberal gun grabbers and their grandiose beliefs.

R,
Bullseye


http://guntalk-online.com/images/guntalk_logo_sm.jpg (http://guntalk-online.com/forum/index.php)

scout26
August 7, 2007, 12:31 AM
Not just Neil, but Rush and especially G. Gordon would definitely get a big kick out your story.

mordechaianiliewicz
August 10, 2007, 04:57 PM
Just found this thread, and all I can say is, I applaud you. If you're ever in the KC Metro area or know you will be, give a pm, and I'll get you a beer someplace.

PS

Please tell me you spread this story far and wide.

230RN
August 10, 2007, 05:32 PM
Hey, wait a minute! Don't let those jerks know what was done here!

H3ll, I've been dancing from foot to foot for a couple of years waiting for one of those scrap metal deals to come to Denver again!

Zoogster
August 10, 2007, 07:12 PM
Wait a minute. Isn't possession of a handgun in Chicago illegal? Wouldn't going to Chicago with handguns to turn them in be illegal?

What is the statute of limitations on prosecuting you for violating that?

Perhaps talking about it is not such a good idea.

Otherwise I applaud the action taken.

Don Gwinn
August 12, 2007, 11:58 AM
Possessing them is illegal, but the buyback is "no questions asked." I imagine that if you could show a judge that you also possessed maps to buyback locations along with buyback posters, you could introduce the question of whether anyone else who turned in handguns got arrested.

I have no idea whether that would work, I suppose, but it worked in the Vana Haggerty case when she was charged with violating an obscure law that hadn't been enforced in years, if ever.

Crimper-D
August 12, 2007, 12:07 PM
:evil:I LOVE Irony!:cool:

Hatchett
August 12, 2007, 01:04 PM
The sad part is is that Chicago antis probably think paying $100 of the taxpayer's money for a POS gun that doesn't work is money well spent. Spending isn't an issue for them,as long as they further their agenda.

Templar223
July 20, 2009, 08:35 PM
Anyone hear if Chicago will hold another "Best Buy" soon?

John

RoyL_Fuchs
July 20, 2009, 10:45 PM
As a fellow resident of the Peoples Democratic Socialist Republic of Illinoiz, I think this is the greatest thing I've ever heard. How fellow gun owners can possibly think this was a bad idea is completely lost on me. Simply brilliant.

You'll never stop the do-gooders. Even if tomorrow, God waved a magic wand over our nanny-state, and gave us the same firearms rights that our brothers in, say, Tennessee, enjoy, the Pflegers and the Jacksons and the Daleys would still push these stupid programs.

Templer, I enjoyed reading your signs along the Interstate heading south earlier this year. Keep fighting the good fight.

"Illegitmous non carborundum." "Don't let the bastards grind you down." I think it was General Joseph Stillwell who said that. But I could be wrong.

RedLion
July 21, 2009, 12:02 AM
Good Job Templar! And another A+ for giving the money to a program for the kids and our future!

and to anyone who thinks he gave up his guns and rights to Daly, you can take my junk guns for me for a nominal fee.....

paintballdude902
July 21, 2009, 12:06 AM
where did the firearms come from? where they old klunkers friends, family, and members had ?

tdowell
July 21, 2009, 01:05 AM
Someone needs to create a sticky that lists where all the "Gun buy back"'s are. Plenty of people who'd like to do the same, unload a bunch of junk. Moderator, can you set one up so anyone can post where these events are taking place??

I found 1 already, too far for me, but someone may benefit.

Buffalo NY, Aug 15th 2009

Cactus Jack Arizona
July 21, 2009, 02:28 AM
I have to admit, I was initially horrified that someone would post on a pro-gun forum, bragging about turning in guns at a gun buy back. :eek: However, upon furthering the read, I realized where the OP was going.

I congratulate the OP for his punking of Daley and the rest of the mis-guided but foolish anti-gun people. The proceeds were used properly for a terrific cause. I applaud you. :) They probably didn't even give any thought about the quality of the firearms you were turning in, at least during your first stop.

However, the second stop is where mistakes were made. You gave them worthless junk and they gave you several $100 gift cards. Even though this was supposedly a no-questions-asked program, you aroused their suspicion by the number of old worn out junk. This would be your first mistake. If they are tracking the card's numbers to see where they are being used, they will see that some of their cards went to purchasing more guns and ammo. Second mistake. Lastly, you let them take your picture. This will most certainly be used at the next gun buy back to see if you return next time with more junk.

Solutions, going backwards;
1) Don't pose for anymore pictures.
2) Don't use the cards for buying guns and/or ammo. You said this was your gun club? Next time try auctioning the cards off when you have your next gun club meeting........say, $50 a raffle ticket for a $100 gift card. If you have more than a handful of members, you would end up with far more to donate.
3) What is junk? One man's junk is another man's treasure. I know, I just used a cliche......too bad. :scrutiny: Seriously and better yet, instead of empowering those jerks to hold more GBB's, try listing what you have here. I'm sure if you let people know what the proceeds are for, they would generously open their wallets, even if times are a bit difficult.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are always alternatives to Gun Buy Back programs. ;)

JoeShmoe
July 21, 2009, 10:28 AM
Personally I like the idea of using dirty tricks to sandbag the gun grabbers operations. The fact that the money was used for a good cause, is icing on the cake.

If you enjoyed reading about "A BEST BUY in Chicagoland: Selling (s)crap metal at a gun turn in" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!