Crimson Trace Laser Zero


PDA






eric.cartman
July 27, 2007, 12:07 PM
I picked up S&W 442 yesterday with CT laser grip.
I'm going to the range to zero it today.
What is the recommended distance?
I assume the gun will not be "used" at more than say 25 feet for SD. And anything closer than that wouldn't be much off from the point of aim.

What distance do you have your CT laser zeroed at?

If you enjoyed reading about "Crimson Trace Laser Zero" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
zeroskillz
July 27, 2007, 12:31 PM
I have mine zeroed at 10 yards, only becaause that's where the range I frequent has a marking on the wall. I practice about one a week with my carry gun and always run a few mags with the laser on, at varying distances to get a feeling for the POI at different ranges.

I love the laser, and IMO 25 feet is a goos distance. But given the geometry, I would imagine the farther out you can zero it (read, hold the gun steady enought for consistent results), the less off POA the laser will be.

FWIW,
-Ted

mavracer
July 27, 2007, 01:20 PM
my 442 and 605 are both zeroed at 25 yards if you learn to hold it and trigger control these things are scary.ck out my post on zespectors short walk on a long pier thread

DawgFvr
July 27, 2007, 01:48 PM
Recommend 10-15 yards...the laser peters out after that anyway...especially in sunlight. My LG-105 are dialed in for 10 yards which was meant for up, close, final last resort defense...this isn't a target gun by any means.

CraigJS
July 27, 2007, 04:36 PM
7-10yards max. I like the CT grips for indoor, low light, possibly out of position shooting. Mostly for HD, 21'-30' is about the longest interior distance I can shoot at home. Even at 15-20yards if shooting center of mass will still give you a deadly hit that will be slightly low, slightly to the right. More than 15-20yards in anything but low light and the laser will be of little use. Practice with both the guns sights and the laser, don't rely on only one of the two.
And of course you should be moving not planted like a rock in any defencive use of your weapon, to an area of cover, NOT concealment..(if you have the choice)
Be safe.

Noxx
July 27, 2007, 08:33 PM
I'd set your zero at roughly the distance of the longest hallway in your home.

For me that's about 8 yards, and it's a lot easier to go to work at night knowing my wife has those CT's on her Sig.

eric.cartman
July 27, 2007, 09:55 PM
So i took the 442 to the range today during lunch. And I'm sorry to say i have a blister on my hand :uhoh: it kicks like a horse! But it's cool! I shot .38 Special out of it (not +P) and zeroed it at abour 7 yards / 25 feet. it shoots great. I wish I could zero it at 25 yards, but it was hard enough at 7. I had to lean forward and rest the gun on the bench at the local indoor range. I figured if i used it at close range, 1 to 2 inches offset want make THAT much difference... i hope... when aiming for COM.

Anyone with experience in Ft. Lauderdale area willing to zero it for me at 25 yards ? I'll pay for the range and ammo, and will even include a 6 pack of your favorite beer? :D

M2 Carbine
July 27, 2007, 11:47 PM
I practice a good bit with lasers, 2-5 evenings a week.
All my defense guns are equipped with lasers or laser/lights, if availably.
I sight in my lasers at 20-25 yards. This way the gun will hit within an inch or two everywhere from point bland to 40-50 yards.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/CTKimTacticaldistance.jpg

DBR
July 28, 2007, 01:23 AM
IMHO shooting a J Frame with any brand of adequate defensive ammo requires a "crush grip". Hold as high on the back strap as possible and try to squeeze "splinters" out of the grip.

If you are not gripping hard enough that your hand is shaking, you are not gripping hard enough. With some practice you may be surprised by the fact that the hand shake has very little effect on accuracy and will happen anyway in a real "situation".

To your original question: I like to zero grip type lasers at the POI of properly regulated iron sights at 25 yds. Verify the irons first and then adjust the laser to agree with them. For small guns like the J Frame 15 yds is OK but the gun will shoot low at longer ranges.

glockman19
July 28, 2007, 02:01 AM
I zeroed my 405's in at 12 yards. The longest hallway in my house is 48'.

V-fib
July 28, 2007, 11:22 AM
On my 642 I have my CT zeroed at 8 yards.

DBR is correct speaking of the “crush grip” for better accuracy from your snubby. Ayoob has written about this also.

Full sunlight use of your laser will vary. If you and your adversary are both in full sunlight the laser will be hard if not impossible to see. However if you’re in full sunlight but your adversary is in the shade your laser will show up quite well. It’s best to practice various scenarios with your laser in full light. However, most SD encounters happen in low light or dark and your laser will perform well.

Pick up a copy of “Shots in the Dark.” It’s a very informative video of laser use and tactics.:cool:

mavracer
July 28, 2007, 12:41 PM
Ok I understand your not planing on shooting much over ten yards for SD but if you zero laser at 7 yards it will be off 8 to ten inches at 25,whereas a 25yard zero will only be off an inch at 7 yards.these things will shoot 2-3" groups at 25 yards, zero off a rest if you have to.don't limit yourself to a 7 yard zero.

jaydubya
July 28, 2007, 07:06 PM
You have discovered two things. First, a J-frame is not fun to shoot. In addition to the excellent advice above, I recommend sports tape around the base of your thumb to protect its web from blistering when shooting more than a few rounds. Do the same with your trigger finger to protect it from the trigger guard.

Second, there is considerable disagreement on what distance you should site in your Crimson Trace grips. I have them on my 637, 686, and 9mm Hi-Power. They are all sited in for seven yards. I really like the idea spoken above: how long is the longest hall in your home? For SD/HD that is the benchmark. Law enforcement officers have different benchmarks.
Cordially, Jack

DBR
July 28, 2007, 09:17 PM
To repeat: IMHO 25yds is what you want for laser sight in. You will be less than 1" high at any closer distance.

If you go the other way and sight in at 7-10yds you will be much further off at longer distances. This is not bullseye shooting. Use the sight in distance that gives the maximum "point blank range" ie the range over which you can hold on target and expect a hit in a reasonable radius of the aiming point. I think 4" is a reasonable target diameter (2" radius) for any personal self defense weapon.

A 25yd sight in will take you well beyond 25yds before you exceed that 2" variation and it will not exceed 2" at ranges closer than 25yds.

TOADMAN
July 28, 2007, 09:30 PM
For self defense, the Crimson Trace LG-105 Defender laser grips on my S&W 637 are sighted-in at 21 feet.. As the shoot distance gets closer, say 15 feet, the point of impact is about two inches higher from the laser. If the shoot distance is closer than 15 feet, most folks wont need a laser or have time to look for a laser beam and rely on point shooting, quickly get a few rounds on target and move rapidly out of harms way. If you can move and shoot accurately at the same time, more better... Shooting accurately while moving will require some serious training...

If the shoot is greater than 21 feet, the point of impact, say 30 feet, is a few inches lower of the laser...My S&W snubbie is my last resort home defense weapon...I mostly rely on my 12ga 870 with reduced recoil OObuck or 45ACP Glock 36 with night sights...Away from home self defense, I rely mostly on my Glock 26, sometimes the Glock 36 will suffice...

jaydubya
July 28, 2007, 11:39 PM
As DBR states, "To repeat: IMHO 25yds is what you want for laser sight in. You will be less than 1" high at any closer distance."

I agree with DBR's ballistics. However, since I would not enjoy watching my bullets hit a target one inch above the red dot, and since I would prefer not to explain in a court of law why my SD/HD weapon was sited in for 25 yards, I respectfully disagree. The Crimson Trace grips on my handguns -- all intended for SD/HD -- are set for seven yards. And I suggest the starter of this thread do the same.

DBR is certainly right on how to grip a J-frame snubby: squeeze it tight or suffer.

Cordially, Jack

mavracer
July 29, 2007, 12:36 AM
I agree with DBR's ballistics. However, since I would not enjoy watching my bullets hit a target one inch above the red dot, and since I would prefer not to explain in a court of law why my SD/HD weapon was sited in for 25 yards, I respectfully disagree. The Crimson Trace grips on my handguns -- all intended for SD/HD -- are set for seven yards. And I suggest the starter of this thread do the same.
so when you shoot at seven yards you put all your shots in the same hole, good because thats the only way your theory works.if you zero at 7 your far enough off at 25 to miss if you zero at 25 you will have your group will be centered in the top of a 2" bullseye at 7.also your zero at 25 yards is 4 times more precise if your zero is off 1/2" low at 7 yards now your 12-15" low at 25 yards if your zero is 1/2 inch high at 25 yards now your an inch high instead of 3/4. don't sell these things short.

CraigJS
July 29, 2007, 01:09 AM
Just be sure in a low light or no light situation what you're shooting at 25 yards.. What if there is an inocent bystander behind your 25yd low light no light shot? Good luck defending that one.
Be safe.

DawgFvr
July 29, 2007, 03:26 AM
Good greif...shooting a 642 at 25 yards...75 feet? :confused: Rediculous! If the target was that far away and firing at me...I would not be able to hit it if shooting while moving to cover. I would not expect to. If the target was not shooting at me...hell, I'd just get the hell out of there and go get a real weapon. Lordy...the J frame is my self defense, up close and personal weapon of the last resort...it is not a target pistol. I have the LG-105 and it has its uses...but to be honest, I use it more for practice and replace the grip with wood and tyler grips for actual carry.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/DawgFvr/642/LG1.jpg

I much prefer these to the laser grip:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/DawgFvr/SandW/Tylergrip2.jpg

mavracer
July 29, 2007, 04:10 PM
Just be sure in a low light or no light situation what you're shooting at 25 yards.. What if there is an inocent bystander behind your 25yd low light no light shot? Good luck defending that one.
Be safe.
At least I'm willing to look 25 yards out.we all should IE whats 25 yards behind your 7 yard target,gonna be just as tough to defend.
Good greif...shooting a 642 at 25 yards...75 feet?
ya and I can with regularity(2-3 out of every cylinder) hit the 100 meter rifle gong(10x16") with it.
BTW are you guys under the impression I can't use my CT442 at 7 yards.because I can and very well I might add usally have one Jagged hole at 7 yards. so don't worry a 25 yard zero will work great at 7 yards.

ps I'll try this one more time at the muzzle the laser is 1" below the bullet and 1/2" to the right.the laser goes in a strait line the bullet for practical purposes(very little drop in 25 yards) goes in a strait line.you sight the laser by directing the laser line into the path of the bullet. if the two intesect(cross) at 7 yards then the further you get out the further off you are.if they intersect at 25 yards they are never more than an inch apart.
I understand that MOST SD confrontation happen at less than 7 yards but not all.If your gonna practice why not push your self a little.

jaydubya
July 29, 2007, 07:32 PM
I guess I must come right out and say it: If I am 25 yards from someone, I am not going to shoot at him and then plead self defense in court. I would lose.

mavracer
July 29, 2007, 07:51 PM
oh I'm sorry I must have missread original post I thought he asked what range to zero crimson trace grips at.not what is the maximum range you could shoot and claim self defense.

CraigJS
July 29, 2007, 08:14 PM
Cleansing breath, cleansing breath....Geeez, I love the internet.

PS: What makes you think I don't ID what's behind my target?
Capital letters make posts so much easier to read.

mavracer
July 29, 2007, 08:24 PM
PS: What makes you think I don't ID what's behind my target?
sorry, was not aware of the double set of standards.

Just be sure in a low light or no light situation what you're shooting at 25 yards.. What if there is an inocent bystander behind your 25yd low light no light shot? Good luck defending that one.

jaydubya
July 29, 2007, 11:26 PM
Mavracer said: oh I'm sorry I must have missread original post I thought he asked what range to zero crimson trace grips at.not what is the maximum range you could shoot and claim self defense.

Cute. I quit this thread.

DBR
July 30, 2007, 12:26 AM
I will try this one more time. The 25yd zero is not to suggest that anyone under normal circumstances would be justified in shooting an assailant at 25yds. It is just the most practical and useful sight in distance for a laser mounted on a handgun intended to be used for self defense.

Some of you posters seem to think a self defense shooting will be a precision event. It won't be. Give yourself every advantage regarding down range damage. Limit the degree to which your sighting system deviates from original point of aim on a shoot through or a miss.

Also, go back and read the "maximum point blank range" part of my previous post. This is the best way to sight in a self defense or hunting firearm for most uses.

I am signing off at this point.

zeroskillz
July 30, 2007, 12:54 PM
What he said.
IMO, if you're able to zero it at 25 yards, given the geometry, POI will be closer to POA at more distances than if zeroed at 10 yards. That said, I might just drink to much coffee to be able to really zero a laser at 25 yards.
:D

DawgFvr
July 30, 2007, 06:18 PM
zeroskillz: have you attempted to hit a 25 yard target with a 642...let alone attempt to zero a laser with the 642 at 75 feet? I believe this thread needs a little laser adjustment...cuz it is way off target for the capability of this light, miniscule barreled J frame.

zeroskillz
July 30, 2007, 06:25 PM
By the time I read through to here, I forgot what gun this was going on.
:rolleyes:
Just the same, I defer to my original post , that mine is zeroed at 10 yards, but if I could zero it further easily, I would.

mavracer
July 30, 2007, 08:52 PM
cuz it is way off target for the capability of this light, miniscule barreled J frame.
not beyond capability of the gun.maybe beyond the capability of the nut on the grip.I know that was uncalled for I'm sorry.try sighting in off sand bags you'd be amazed what these light,short barrels are capable of.I know this is not 25 but its also weak hand unsuported at 15 yards.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=56032&d=1175724591

DawgFvr
July 31, 2007, 12:17 PM
Oh...I'm not saying that a better shot than I can hit a distant target with the 642 using sandbags...a vice...etc., however, I train as I would for combat and shooting/moving with the tiny J frame just doesn't equate to 75 foot tack driving. I zero my laser as I intend to defend myself...this is an up close and personal little weapon...and when used that way, it can be effective. That is why I believe the 7 yard or 25 feet laser zeroing makes far more sense than 25 yards. I have other weapons for distant target shooting. A good mechanic uses the right tool for the job...eh?

geekWithA.45
July 31, 2007, 12:35 PM
Set the dot to appear just above the sights at 10-15 yards.

This way, if the dot isn't 100% immediately apparent to you, you can find it with the sights.

Hopefully, your sights have some relationship with where you hit.

mavracer
July 31, 2007, 01:21 PM
dawg,
your trying to tell me you sighted your laser in while moving.I'm not shure how accurate that would be,I think it would be very time consuming.I think the OP would be better served to sight laser and then practice.
and one more time a 25 yard zero will only be 1/2 inch off center at 7 yards if as you say these are not target guns whats a 1/2 inch it certianly will not be the reason you missed.
and a good mechanic gets paid flat rate.they dont have time to run back to their tool box to get a prybar so they use the screwdriver thats in their hand and get the job done.just like you won't be able to run back to the house to get your target pistol ,because mr. badguy started shooting at you from 25 yards.

OK now I'm done

crankshop1000
July 31, 2007, 04:08 PM
If you adjust your laser dot the distance of the laser from the centerline of the bore at 7 feet, you will roughly be right on at 50' .The problem with "sighting in" a 642 is that it has only rudimentry sights and is DAO. You will have better luck starting at 7' and working out to whatever you feel you can be accurate at. Chuck. I'm saying the 642 is one gun that not everybody can shoot accurately, not that the 642 isn't accurate, you just have a few things working against you. Chuck.

DawgFvr
July 31, 2007, 06:11 PM
No...no...no. I did not say I sighted in the laser while moving. I move when I actually use the weapon. In other words, I do not treat it like a target pistol...using a vice or on a sandbag. Of course you have to sight it in without moving the lay of the weapon. You were done long before.

mavracer
August 1, 2007, 12:05 AM
OK once again with visual aid went to range today,my 442 CT grips zero at 25 yard.group on right is at 25 yards (not my best effort,just shot)as you can see group is centered and all shots would be COM. group on left is at 7 yards
and notice group is centered about an inch high and just left of center, but as you say this is not a bullseye gun , plenty good enough for SD.now if you still want to sight your gun for 7 yards go ahead:banghead:.I would suggest OP take advice from someone who at least thinks they are a compotent shot.
those are 3" bulls.

to the OP the further out the better.As to getting better,you have a great training tool at your disposal.every day for a couple weeks take your 442 and practice holding dot on a light switch and dry fire it ( get snapcaps if you want) but try to hold dot on switch until after hammer falls. this will accomplish two things one you'll be a better shot and two the trigger on your 442 will smooth out.

Tim Burke
August 1, 2007, 11:05 AM
It's unlikely that you will ever have to use your J-frame at a range of greater than 3 yards. OTOH, the closer you zero it, the more difference you get between POA & POI at long ranges. This is complicated by the fact that the laser, unlike the sights, is under the barrel, and displaced laterally. Since it's under the barrel, you will only have one intercept between the laser and the bullet path.
If you zero the laser at a long distance, you will have some difference between POA & POI up close, but it will be less than or equal to the difference at contact distance... about an inch and a quarter. Are you going to be shooting 2 inch groups in that situation? If not, that's plenty precise. If you are, then you probably have time to compensate for the offset.
If you zero it at 2.5 yards, the offset will be less than 1.25" from 0 to 5 yards, but at 15 yards it will be over 6 inches.
DBR's approach is logical; I use a variation of his approach. I figure 30-35 yards is normally the maximum range that I'll be able to see the laser. By sighting in for half that range, I can know that my offset is 1.25" or less anywhere I can see the laser, and less than that for the middle range. I sight in for 50 feet. Coincidentally, this is the range that Crimson Trace says they have zeroed the lasers when they ship them.

If you enjoyed reading about "Crimson Trace Laser Zero" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!