Negligent Discharge Today


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GaryArkansas
July 28, 2007, 01:12 PM
I was at an IDPA match this morning. We all heard a round go off in the parking area. No injuries (thankfully). We all kinda looked at each other with our eyebrows raised. The unspoken sentiment was, "What a bleeping moron."

I don't know who did it, but I gotta think the guy felt pretty embarrassed. If it were me, I would've just packed up my stuff and left.

Hopefully, just a hole in the dirt, and not in the side of someone's car. I wonder what he would've said to his insurance adjuster.

Hope it never happens to me.

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Shipwreck
July 28, 2007, 04:12 PM
Ouch!

Kimber1911_06238
July 28, 2007, 04:14 PM
that's not good, someone didn't remember the 4 rules. glad nobody was hurt or killed

iiibdsiil
July 29, 2007, 12:17 AM
Everyone thinks "What a bleeping idiot" until it happens to them. Then ya realize "Bleep happens, I won't make that mistake again!" as long as no one gets hurt.

I think it's one of those situations where people need a "It's okay man, a few of us have done it before, good thing no one got hurt, let's ALL learn from this." instead of a "What a bleeping idiot."

When I had my ND, the last thing I wanted was someone telling me I'm an idiot and how big of a mistake I made. I realized it when it happened, don't remind me. ;)

Dr_2_B
July 29, 2007, 12:42 AM
iiibds,

I'm with you. I have made mistakes before. I've crossed the center line on the highway or started to roll backward in my truck before I'd really cleared the area behind me. I've neglected to grill the chicken as long as I should've. I've even squeezed the trigger on a 1911 .45 without depressing the grip safety to show a friend how it worked (only to have the gun go off without the grip safety squeezed).

It DOES happen to people like you and me. One of the rules of gun safety is that you NEVER EVER let the muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy. Well, I'm not willing to destroy the hydraulics in my car, or my couch, or the downstairs, or my foot if I happen to crouch, but the muzzle of my holstered gun covers these every day.

If I had a negligent discharge into the heel of my foot while crouching to speak to my nephew, I wonder how many people would get on here and call me an idiot for failing to follow the safety rules.

Erik
July 29, 2007, 01:32 AM
It happens.

The important thing is for the word to get out for the example and benefit of others.

finalcut
July 29, 2007, 03:05 AM
Two kinds of people - those who learn from their mistakes, and those who don't ( we all make 'em ).
Thank God no one got hurt, and I hope that guy learns his lesson well.

Mad Magyar
July 29, 2007, 09:13 AM
Even the the 1911 master himself, Jeff Cooper, relates the AD in his den while showing a weapon to an old friend. I thought more of him for admitting a mistake and not trying to alibi what had happen....Anyway, his stray bullet hit the wall.....

Geno
July 29, 2007, 09:30 AM
That we are human means we can have accidents...from crib right up to the grave. One company sees this as so common a concern that they market various forms of "soft" bullet traps that can be taken with the shootist. It matters not that you want a wall-hang unit, a sport bag, etc. They have it all.

http://safedirection.com/

JDGray
July 29, 2007, 10:11 AM
I done it myself, I thought I cleared my Glock, to give my Brother his magazine back, when all I did was chamber another round. He asked me why I just shot the ground:D "I was aiming at the ground on purpose" Remove mag BEFORE you clear the weapon! At least I was aiming in a safe dirrection, and that was no accident, just a surprise:eek:

Kacerdias
July 29, 2007, 08:31 PM
I can't say I would fault the guy unless I saw what happened. Truth is, you can follow the 4 rules and still have an AD. It happened to me at the range once. I was shooting my old CZ52. I inserted a loaded mag and racked the slide. Checked to make sure the safety was off and started putting holes in the target. After my 3rd shot, the range instructor told everyone to finish out their current mag and put the weapons down for a cease fire. Alright, no problem. Finger out of trigger guard, pistol pointed downrange, pushed the decocker to "safely" drop the hammer before taking the mag out. *click* <2 seconds> *BLAM*. Not sure why, but the primer ignited 2 seconds after the decocker engauged. The stray round impacted the dirt embankment downrange. :what:

Lessons learned:

1. Follow the 4 rules. They might not prevent AD's, but they'll significantly lessen the chance of anyone getting hurt.

2. Never trust the decocker. Again, the 4 rules.

Mad Magyar
July 29, 2007, 09:25 PM
pushed the decocker to "safely" drop the hammer before taking the mag out]
Never trust the decocker

Time for another J. Cooper truism...In one of his Cooper's Corner, he mentioned that sooner later that a decocker would let someone down to a catastrophic end, (his words..). He didn't trust any pistol with one...
Since I carry my summer-time pistol with the decocker/safety, I sometimes think about the late Col.s premonition....:rolleyes:

GaryArkansas
July 29, 2007, 09:39 PM
Our club has a covered firing line. Kinda makes you wonder about all the holes in the roof.

surjimmy
July 30, 2007, 10:37 AM
I had an AD, and felt like a bleeping @#$%&* until a guy I knew who know's more about gun's then anyone I know. He took me aside and told me anyone who handles guns with any amount of time is going to let one go off. That is why u always keep it pointed in a safe direction. Don't worry about it just learn from it. It sure amade me feel alot better.

CajunBass
July 30, 2007, 10:55 AM
I've done it. Learned from it. Never done it again. Pray I never will.

GuidoTorpedo
July 30, 2007, 11:12 AM
A friend of mine had an AD in his condo. His SVT-40 slamfired when he was testing chambering a round. Thankfully no one was hurt (except his wall and the floor of his neighbors balcony).

We both understand the error but we still joke about it today.

Babalouie
July 30, 2007, 01:08 PM
Wow, I cannot believe what I am reading. There is NO comfort to the anyone NEGLIGENT DISCHARGING EVER. It was stupid and deadly and probably criminal. I have no problem extending grace but not ever for a negligent discharge (An AD, yes but a NG NO). There is no excuse and I don't care if it has happened to you or not. What that person allowed to happen placed everyone in extreem danger including death. If someone you know was killed by some idiot who can't follow four easy rules HE SHOULD NOT OWN A GUN!!!! and you'd be singing a different tune. It is incidents like this that blacken our sport and place at further risk our second ammend. rights. I'm not saying he couldn't be forgiven but at the very least the incident should be debriefed, learned from and the person should be REQUIRED to attend a gun safety course. If that happened at our club it would not go without a serious response... If safety is first and foremost how can anyone excuse this behavior? This is deadly stuff, you don't get do-overs folks and the response to ND's must be powerful. I AM NOT SAYING THE PERSON SHOULD BE BANNED. But there must be some response to assure everyone at that club that they are safe.

zeroskillz
July 30, 2007, 01:09 PM
They say there are 2 kinds, those who have had a ND, and those who are going to have a ND. Fortunatly I haven't had one yet, but I'm sure at some point I probably will, as much as I handle guns.

Babalouie
July 30, 2007, 01:14 PM
X

kellyj00
July 30, 2007, 01:22 PM
it's an accident. We all make mistakes....
learn and move on. I wouldn't call the guy a "moron"...ever. How would you feel?

Honestly, I've seen some really interesting gun handling in my time...and I've never called anyone anything like "moron". Usually, if it's not a mistake, it's lack of instruction. If it were me and I found out who did it, I would have told the guy "that's your one. I'm glad nobody was hurt when I had a discharge." whether it's true or not.

GRIZ22
July 30, 2007, 01:39 PM
The important thing is for the word to get out for the example and benefit of others.

Jeff Cooper, relates the AD in his den while showing a weapon to an old friend. I thought more of him for admitting a mistake and not trying to alibi what had happen....Anyway, his stray bullet hit the wall.....


Skeeter Skelton said that if you handle guns often enough you will have a UID. I remember that was the topic of one of his columns and he told the stories behind the mirrors he shot etc. He never hurt anyone or broke anything too expensive.

GRIZ22
July 30, 2007, 01:45 PM
deleted, duplicate

ZeSpectre
July 30, 2007, 01:55 PM
Time for another J. Cooper truism...In one of his Cooper's Corner, he mentioned that sooner later that a decocker would let someone down to a catastrophic end.

Yeah I'm a 4 rules NUT (just ask TinyGnat) but I'll never forget getting my first decocker and decocking the pistol twice before it suddenly came to me that it was like pulling the trigger and the gun should really be aimed safely (you know, four rules).

No AD/ND but man I felt like a complete idiot for my 12 second lapse!

I think it's a very good thing that this topic comes up regularly and gets re-hashed each time. Excellent safety reminders that we all need on a regular basis.

Old Dog
July 30, 2007, 01:59 PM
Babalouie states:There is NO comfort to the anyone NEGLIGENT DISCHARGING EVER. It was stupid and deadly and probably criminal. I have no problem extending grace but not ever for a negligent discharge (An AD, yes but a NG NO). There is no excuse and I don't care if it has happened to you or not.
Wow. I don't believe anyone here has made excuses for anyone's NDs, simply stating that they happen. There is a big difference between making excuses and admitting mistakes. Life's gonna be a lot tougher if one plans go through it being so judgemental ...

I've got more'n twenty years active duty military and several years law enforcement, both military and civilian, behind me, been to several gun schools and more training I can remember -- and I've had some of the most qualified, intelligent, experienced guys I've ever met admit to me that they've had NDs (not ADs), seen a few myself, committed by some of these same folks ... and yes -- had one of my own a few years back.

Technosavant
July 30, 2007, 02:11 PM
1) I disagree with the sentiment that "there's two kinds of shooters: those who have had NDs and those that will." It IS possible to avoid them, even if that is the exception and not the rule.

2) The Four Rules exist for a reason, and there is redundancy built in. You have to violate more than one in order to have a ND that has catastrophic results.

3) Whether you've had one or not (I am in the latter group), the proper response to NDs is not holier than thou "what a moron" talk (well, unless it was REALLY stupid...). Far better to learn from it and adopt a "there but for my own vigilance go I" attitude. It can happen to all of us, and only our constant attention to detail will keep it from happening to all of us.

DogBonz
July 30, 2007, 02:13 PM
Truth is, you can follow the 4 rules and still have an AD. It happened to me at the range once. I was shooting my old CZ52. I inserted a loaded mag and racked the slide. Checked to make sure the safety was off and started putting holes in the target. After my 3rd shot, the range instructor told everyone to finish out their current mag and put the weapons down for a cease fire. Alright, no problem. Finger out of trigger guard, pistol pointed downrange, pushed the decocker to "safely" drop the hammer before taking the mag out. *click* <2 seconds> *BLAM*. Not sure why, but the primer ignited 2 seconds after the decocker engauged. The stray round impacted the dirt embankment downrange.

My brother had a well worn SIG226 (probably well over 20k rounds) and at the range he hit the decocker and BAM! We both lookat at each other like ***? Also, I always use the slide lock to indicate to me and everyone else that the weapon is clear ever since I saw a rookie who had only shot 1911's have a AD when he put his Glock down on the range table and it "Just went off". What most likely happened was that he had gotten careless about putting his finger on the trigger because his 1911 was "on safe". He had quite a nasty cut and a big old welt on his hand, but the round at least went down range.

ArchAngelCD
July 30, 2007, 02:31 PM
I've never had a true AD/ND but something you could call an almost.

While testing my reloaded ammo in a revolver single action my finger applied a little too much pressure to the trigger and I squeezed a round off before I intended to. This actually happened twice to me but will never happen again. Since the revolver was pointed down-range there was no chance of hurting anyone and nobody at the range even knew but I was sure to take note of what happened. "Stuff" happens all the time but like everyone else has already said, if you follow the rules the chance of someone getting hurt is minimized.

Unless you are sure the discharge was due to out right carelessness you shouldn't judge.

sniper350
July 30, 2007, 03:03 PM
Babalouie......... I am with you !! I can't believe what I am reading here. At a time when gun control nuts are screaming to take away our rights to own weapons to protect ourselves.

What most of you are casually brushing to the side are stories of NEGLIGENCE !! Who wants that person in their home carrying a loaded weapon [ around your children ] not me. There is a huge difference between an A.D. and a NELIGENT discharge..........HUGE !!!!

The people saying that everyone will have a NEGLIGENT discharge are just plain wrong IMHO ......... only NEGLIGENT people will have those kinds of deadly mistakes........

Sure there are times when a weapon will malfunction .......... and the gun will discharge accidentially. All of us are subject to that occurrence........ but that is NOT the same as the weapon going off through NEGLIGENCE.
I hope everyone gets the difference here...........

JF.

Babalouie
July 30, 2007, 03:51 PM
Its really not about being judgemental and I understand the dynamics of accidents. But a negligent discharge of a firearm must have a greater response than "we raised our eyebrows", no offense to the original poster. The point I am making is that, because firearms are so deadly, social convention ie looking the other way or being overly gracious cannot take precedent over future safety. The very nature of the "accident" shows that someone needs additional training and has indeed placed everyone at the range at risk. This incident should have had an immediate response, investigation and debriefing. I regret my use of the word "idiot" in my first post and in fact do not think that way. I do not believe the person should be shamed but should be held accountable. The idea of a "debrief" is appropriate to the level of accountability and would be a sufficient learning tool for all involved.

Babalouie
July 30, 2007, 05:03 PM
Sorry for another double post...systems goofy today.

ny32182
July 30, 2007, 05:19 PM
My brother had a well worn SIG226 (probably well over 20k rounds) and at the range he hit the decocker and BAM! We both lookat at each other like ***?

There would have to be multiple catastrophically-failed systems on a 226 in order for this to happen...

Old Dog
July 30, 2007, 09:24 PM
What most of you are casually brushing to the side are stories of NEGLIGENCE !! Who wants that person in their home carrying a loaded weapon [ around your children ] not me. There is a huge difference between an A.D. and a NELIGENT discharge..........HUGE !!!!
Re-reading through this thread, I do not see anyone "casually brushing to the side" stories of NDs. Yes, they're serious. But I submit that oftentimes, even among folks who live with guns and especially perhaps, those who use them as part of their chosen profession, i.e., law enforcement and military, occasionally, despite the best training and the most rigorous of range supervision, NDs will inevitably occur.

They should be seriously dealt with in most communities, and in most communities (e.g., law enforcement agencies, military, gun clubs) they will be seriously dealt with. But, regardless, they'll still happen. And it's NOT necessarily the neophyte shooter or the local "moron" that they happen to. See, sometimes even those who spend the most time around guns become the most complacent -- we know it can't happen to us ... But, one day, for whatever reason -- fatigue, haste, adrenalin, preoccupation with something else -- the brain misses a connection, one vital step that one's brain normally has locked in ... then, BAM.

I do not think Jeff Cooper "casually brushed aside" his own ND. And he was man enough to admit happened to him -- and he was a man of no small ego.

At any rate, those who use guns for a living, and those who frequent ranges, are normally far better at policing the gun/shooting community that society overall is at dealing with all of those knuckleheads on our roadways who should not be operating motor vehicles out there around our families. I'm far more outraged about bad drivers, who constitute a significantly higher proportion of our population than morons at the range.

Babalouie, I totally agree with what you say here:
But a negligent discharge of a firearm must have a greater response than "we raised our eyebrows", no offense to the original poster. The point I am making is that, because firearms are so deadly, social convention ie looking the other way or being overly gracious cannot take precedent over future safety. The very nature of the "accident" shows that someone needs additional training and has indeed placed everyone at the range at risk. This incident should have had an immediate response, investigation and debriefing. I regret my use of the word "idiot" in my first post and in fact do not think that way. I do not believe the person should be shamed but should be held accountable. The idea of a "debrief" is appropriate to the level of accountability and would be a sufficient learning tool for all involved.

tinygnat219
July 31, 2007, 02:58 PM
Well, the thing to avoid them is repetition, repetition, and repetition again. If you think it's unloaded, dump the magazine, open the cylinder and verify. ALWAYS hand it to another person with slide racked back, or cylinder open.
I have actually gotten discounts by handing the gun back like that after taking a look at it.

IndianaBoy
July 31, 2007, 03:28 PM
Wow, I cannot believe what I am reading. There is NO comfort to the anyone NEGLIGENT DISCHARGING EVER. It was stupid and deadly and probably criminal. I have no problem extending grace but not ever for a negligent discharge (An AD, yes but a NG NO). There is no excuse and I don't care if it has happened to you or not. What that person allowed to happen placed everyone in extreem danger including death. If someone you know was killed by some idiot who can't follow four easy rules HE SHOULD NOT OWN A GUN!!!! and you'd be singing a different tune. It is incidents like this that blacken our sport and place at further risk our second ammend. rights. I'm not saying he couldn't be forgiven but at the very least the incident should be debriefed, learned from and the person should be REQUIRED to attend a gun safety course. If that happened at our club it would not go without a serious response... If safety is first and foremost how can anyone excuse this behavior? This is deadly stuff, you don't get do-overs folks and the response to ND's must be powerful. I AM NOT SAYING THE PERSON SHOULD BE BANNED. But there must be some response to assure everyone at that club that they are safe.


:scrutiny:

FieroCDSP
July 31, 2007, 03:34 PM
The important thing to remember, Babaloo, is that the four rules cannot prevent all AD or ND. The four rules keep people from dying when something goes wrong, beit negligence or accidental. Disobeying any of the rules puts the environment around the gun at risk. They are guide-lines to protecting others, not the gun or self.

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