Firearms "Facts" prove Pat Tillman was murdered


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pdowg881
July 28, 2007, 05:21 PM
I know many people may not think this is gun related at first, but the story and comments seem allege a completely ludicrous assertion. A large part of the concluscion is over an M16 and three round burst, and competence of professional soldeirs when it comes to firearms and combat. I didn't really know where to put this, but I thought it was a great example of how some people claim "facts" about firearms, and build on these falsehoods to convince people of rediculous claims.

Specifically, the story alleges Pat Tillman was intentionally killed by his fellow soldiers for being a Kerry supporter and anti war. I know it's crazy and rediculous. But beginning with the comment "Details say a lot on their own" firearms "facts" are given to scientificaly prove this point. There is also people alleging that Rangers are a bunch of untrained kids. So they back up such a claim by spreading firearms mininforamtion. I can't comment on MSNBS's story, because I haven't seen it, but it's an example of how poeple pile misinforamtion ontop of news pieces. I'm also wondering if this is a widely held beleif since it was alleged in mainstream media.

I'm not trying to stir up any conspiracy theories but I'm just trying to figure out how people can say such incorrect facts about the act of shooting a firearm to "prove" such a crazy thing. I also can't understand that anti's even seem to think combat soldiers are inept and untrained with a firearm.


Yes I know it's daily KOS, and yes I know I'm going to get crap about giving them publicity, but I stubled across this and really would like people's thoughts as to how people can spew so much misinformation about firearms to persuade people, and actaully have people agree with them without question.

Most of these comments even start with "I've never fired a gun before, but"
Shouldn't that translate to "The following sentences are completely fabricated and unproved" even to the crowd that lirks there?

I've never seen these allegations before and once again, I'm not trying to stir up any kind of trouble or any Bush Admin. consipacy theories, I just want to understand how anybody can take people's facts about guns when they state they know nothing about them as proof of an intentional killing of a comerade. And I am really trying to get a good dialouge going. I'm hoping not to see that they are robots or ignorant or anything. I just really can't understand how your average Joe's firearm facts are accepted as proof.

I apologize for the long post, and the possibility that it may be taken the wrong way. Mods. feel free to lock it if you think it is out of line or discussion won't be civil and directed towards my questions. I'm just really trying to gain some understanding through thoughts and opinions of fellow THR members.

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Tommygunn
July 28, 2007, 05:28 PM
The history channel ran a show about this ... it seemed to me it was a major cluster foxtrot ... SNAFU ... or whatever the military slang is. It was a gross error due to "the fog of war," in other words.
Pat Tillman left a very promising football career to join the army after 9/11. Does that sound like something a person oppossed to the war would do?
Most of these comments even start with "I've never fired a gun before, but"
Shouldn't that translate to "The following sentences are completely fabricated and unproved" even to the crowd that lirks there?
*BINGO!*

revjen45
July 28, 2007, 05:30 PM
"No matter how paranoid you are, what they're actually doing is worse than you can possibly imagine."_ Ralph J. Gleason.

pdowg881
July 28, 2007, 05:30 PM
Yeah I saw the history channel story too. That's why I'm trying to understand why so many poeple may not beleive it and for them, unfounded facts centering on firearms is all they need to beleive such a claim.

Regolith
July 28, 2007, 06:10 PM
Conspiracy theories often REQUIRE the misstatement or complete distortion of scientific evidence in order to justify their preconceived and already decided upon version of the truth. This deliberate (or willfully ignorant, depending on how cynical you are) distortion shows up in conspiracy theories from the Moon Landing Hoax to the 9/11 conspiracy. It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant people can be.

Titan6
July 28, 2007, 06:18 PM
RLTW - RIP brother. When these morons are done playing with your memory for their sick purposes you will still be remembered.

Outlaws
July 28, 2007, 06:19 PM
Pat Tillman left a very promising football career to join the army after 9/11. Does that sound like something a person oppossed to the war would do?
Just for the record, he enlisted well before Iraq was on the table. He went to go fight against those who attacked us. If he was against going into Iraq that would be a completely separate issue with zero basis in how much he wanted to get Bin Laden. There are many people in this country who support one but not the other.

Biker
July 28, 2007, 06:35 PM
From what I've read and heard (I know...) he took three rounds in the forehead in about a 2" group. That's some damn fine shooting while under fire.

Biker

armabill
July 28, 2007, 06:41 PM
Magic bullets do strange things.

Heavy Metal Hero
July 28, 2007, 06:43 PM
From what I've read and heard (I know...)

:rolleyes:

Biker
July 28, 2007, 06:45 PM
Coulda done without the rolly eye...hence "I know...". Heh heh...

Biker

Heavy Metal Hero
July 28, 2007, 07:05 PM
Coulda done without the rolly eye...

Nah...you deserved it. :)

Biker
July 28, 2007, 07:14 PM
You related to my Ol' Lady?

Biker:cool:

Heavy Metal Hero
July 28, 2007, 07:34 PM
You related to my Ol' Lady?

I certainly hope not....I get enough Biker from my daily dose of THR!

Spot77
July 28, 2007, 07:37 PM
NEW EVIDENCE SUGGESTS PAT TILLMAN WAS MURDERED, PERHAPS BECAUSE OF
GROWING ANTI-WAR VIEW

PAUL JOSEPH WATSON, PRISON PLANET - Astounding new details surrounding
the death of Pat Tillman clearly indicate that top brass decided to
execute the former pro football star in cold blood to prevent him from
returning home and becoming an anti-war icon. . . Shocking new facts
emerged about the case but were bizarrely underplayed by the Associated
Press under nondescript headlines like 'New Details on Tillman's Death'
- a complete disservice to the horrific implications that the new
evidence carries.

"Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the
three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success
to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death
amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated
Press. "The medical evidence did not match up with the scenario as
described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on
the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors - whose names were blacked out - said that the bullet holes
were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by
an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away." The report also states
that "No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one
was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck."

The article also reveals that "Army attorneys sent each other
congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the
Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in
administrative, or non-criminal, punishments."

So there was no evidence whatsoever of friendly fire, but the ballistics
data clearly indicated that the three head shots had been fired from
just 10 yards away and then the Army tried to concoct a hoax friendly
fire story and sent gloating back-slapping e mails congratulating each
other on their success while preventing the doctors from exploring the
possibility of murder. How can any sane and rational individual weigh
this evidence and not come to the conclusion that Tillman was
deliberately gunned down in cold blood?. . .

As far back as March 2003, immediately after the invasion, Tillman
famously told his comrade Spc. Russell Baer, "You know, this war is so
****ing illegal," and urged his entire platoon to vote against Bush in
the 2004 election. Far from the gung-ho gruff stereotype attributed to
him, Tillman was actually a fiercely intellectual man with the courage
of his convictions firmly in place. Tillman had even begun to arrange
meetings with anti-war icons like Noam Chomsky upon his return to
America before his death cut short any aspirations of becoming a focal
point for anti-war sentiment.

According to Daily Kos, Wesley Clark appeared on Keith Olbermann's
Countdown and stated that "the orders came from the very top" to murder
Tillman as he was a political symbol and his opposition to the war in
Iraq would have rallied the population around supporting immediate
withdrawal.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2007/270707tillmanexecuted.htm

JamisJockey
July 28, 2007, 07:55 PM
From what I've read and heard (I know...) he took three rounds in the forehead in about a 2" group. That's some damn fine shooting while under fire.

Biker
__________________

Or just very bad luck.


Ever shot an M16 on burst? It climbs. They don't "group".
No mention of poweder burns in the story, either.

I call bad luck. Fog of war. Lots of 5.56 being directed in his direction.
I hope a mod comes along and closes this thread, too.

Heavy Metal Hero
July 28, 2007, 08:00 PM
I hope a mod comes along and closes this thread, too.

Too much theory for you? Nobody is out of control here. We are all being civilized. So far this topic is pretty interesting, as it is the first time I have heard this.

pcosmar
July 28, 2007, 08:02 PM
The whole thing raises questions. I won't get into the conspiracy theory, but I do not trust those in Government to tell the truth. They have lied to the American People too many times.
I have fired the M16, and with practice you can fire a 3 round burst every time. Putting those 3 rounds in a 2in group would take a firm grip on the weapon, and a very close target.
They say 10 yards. That is some d**n good shooting. Maybe 10 feet,
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-te.tillman28jul28,0,6784846.story
The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

Among the information, the documents said that:

In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mail for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal investigation that resulted in administrative, non-criminal punishments.

The three-star general who withheld the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators about 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

No evidence of enemy fire was found. No one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.
The "no evidence of enemy fire" part gets me.
This seems the "fog of war" was no fog.
Lots of questions, no good answers. Add it to the mistrust file.

Prince Yamato
July 28, 2007, 08:03 PM
The only "holes" I see are the entire story

You know, this war is so
****ing illegal," and urged his entire platoon to vote against Bush in
the 2004 election. Far from the gung-ho gruff stereotype attributed to
him, Tillman was actually a fiercely intellectual man with the courage
of his convictions firmly in place.

Intellectual football player. That's practically an oxymoron. I'm not saying a football player can't be smart, I'm just saying, they tend to not be intellectual. Why would the army ever pick a guy who was a philosopher first and a soldier second? I mean cripes, I consider myself an artsy intellectual (albeit one who knows how and when to shut it off) and if I were a military recruiter, I'd probably pass over me and say, "nice guy, smart, but too independently minded".

said that the bullet holes
were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by
an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away." The report also states
that "No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one
was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck."

That would be because the M-16 is very accurate at 10 yards and that Al-Qaeda ground forces (grunts) are gutless cowards who ran from US troops.

It was simple friendly fire. That was it. This stuff happened ALL THE TIME in WW2. Why is this shocking? He was involved in a WAR, not football camp.

leadcounsel
July 28, 2007, 08:12 PM
I won't buy it until I see these "congratulatory" JAG emails.

No Ranger is going to murder a fellow Ranger, especially a high profile person like Tillman. At worst he may have been unpopular IF this information is true, but that's a big IF. That's not going to cause people to murder and cover it up.

A small group is possible with a burst shot b/c the bullets are litterally on each others' heals.

Lot's of theory, no evidence...

I call BS....

Biker
July 28, 2007, 08:17 PM
Yes Jamis Jockey, I spent some time with an M-16. It didn't have the burst feature but with a little trigger control gained through experience, I could get an accurate 3-round burst on "rock and roll". Never got anything close to a 2" goup though.

Biker

RNB65
July 28, 2007, 08:39 PM
If the Army murdered every soldier who is opposed to the war in Iraq, there wouldn't be enough soldier's left to fill out a rifle company.

eltorrente
July 28, 2007, 09:11 PM
If the Army murdered every soldier who is opposed to the war in Iraq, there wouldn't be enough soldier's left to fill out a rifle company.

Anyone that thinks otherwise has never been in the military and actually heard serviceman have normal conversations. :) Most serviceman are proud to serve and do so for their fellow soldiers/shipmates, but have lots of resentment to either their command or the government's policies. Tillman was just one of the many who feel the same way.

I wouldn't trust an article written on "Prisonplanet.com" anyway. :D I think it would be just a little biased...

Every single famous person that dies before their time was either a victim of a conspiracy, or they faked their death and are still alive. Noone ever actually gets killed for real, unless they aren't famous.

People think our own government blew up the world trade center, yet they can't explain why those same people couldn't plant a few WMD's in the sand. :D

Red State
July 28, 2007, 09:24 PM
"If the Army murdered every soldier who is opposed to the war in Iraq, there wouldn't be enough soldier's left to fill out a rifle company."

Whoa, nothing like a bold, controversial, uncorroborated statment to add a little spice to the conversation!

The Lone Haranguer
July 28, 2007, 09:34 PM
When discussing such "theories," one must consider the source. :rolleyes:

And IBTL. :)

Tyro
July 28, 2007, 09:52 PM
The platoon's Afghan interpreter, who was with Cpl. Tillman, was killed as well and two other Rangers were wounded by friendly fire at a seperate location in the same incident. One of these men was the platoon leader. Four Rangers have admitted to firing on Tillman's position for a sustained period, one of these guys strafed the nearby village hitting the other two Rangers.
When you take these facts into account, it seems unlikely that this incident was orchestrated to assassinate Pat Tillman.

The Army investigation had apparently attempted to determine if a charge of negligence was sustainable against these soldiers, but has declined to press charges.

coyote_jr
July 29, 2007, 12:18 AM
BTL

Zak Smith
July 29, 2007, 12:33 AM
Closed as off-topic.

And guys-- if you know it's GTBL, please report the post instead of posting "IBTL".

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